Hidden Hindus

The following URLs lead to articles dealing with minority affairs in Pakistan :

http://www.jamaat.org/Isharat/ish072000.html

http://www.columban.org.au/bridges_Mar99_3.htm

-arun

RE: YLH

Dear Yasser,

I was just kidding with you and making sure that the pain of reading 10 mile long posts is shared. Just a prank. I didnt even read the posts and still havent. It is just that the scrolling so much page is a pain and the message I wanted to deliver to you was: plz be concise so that we understand your message.

Could you please let me know what gave you an idea that I hate minorities. Though I found this allegation quite disgusting but dont you think I must be shown the contents of the charge sheet. If you are refering to the thread on ``Protest in NY`` then I urge you to read my post titled ``THE SUMMATION``. If it doesnt convince you then call me whatever you like. Lets just say that I take up cases for the absentee party or those who are cornered and are scared to come forward. I will continue to do so because I am

Yours ``Truly``.

RE: sb# 215

Please read between the lines:

The understanding of the relationship of word “belief” and “truth” is quite mind-boggling. If you look for their meaning in The American Heritage Dictionary, the two explanations of the word ``belief`` are as follows:

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in a person or thing.

2. Mental acceptance or conviction in the truth or actuality of something.

I took the liberty of changing the words in the definition slightly (and not the definition itself). I think we are head to head with another paradox:

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing (mis)trust or (non)confidence in a person or thing.

2. Mental acceptance or conviction in the (un)truth or (fallacy) of something.

If we apply the simple logic of deduction and inference here we get hit by a sledgehammer, right across our chests i.e. all ideas are basically religious in nature-even those that are allegedly secular?

Kant Patel

Please read Urstruly`s post 219. Maybe you need to first read whats going on and then speak.

Ab khush ho bizt ho kar????

Yasser Hamdani

Umairr,

...... you seem be a clever fellow. but I do think that you, like many of us, have a hard time reconciling reason, logic and pure horse sense with religion, superstition, tradition and pure unadulterated fear....

``I don`t think Islam is inherently intolerant`` ............ so you think the treatment meted out to the civilian population after the Battle of Khandaq was an example of religious tolerance ? oh I know - it was a different time and circumstance ..... I am just glad that Gen. Ajit Singh Arora abided by the Geneva Conventions and did not use A.Alamgir`s Doctrine ..... see ? that`s the problem I have with apologists for religion - one the one hand they say it is good for all times, for eternity and after , and then they turn around and say , but that was then - it was a different time and different circumstances ................ make up your mind, because you can`t have it both ways ....

``I think it is way too abstract, and open to interpretation to be considered one or the other.``..... for God`s sake - I thought it was God`s word and therefore clear, concise and true for all time - did Gabriel falter as an interpreter or is it a Fatherly jest to trick His people into tripping over their Arabic ?

``Two people can read the same verse of the Quran, and abstract completely different meanings from it.`` ...... whoa! and I thought the Word was infallible and designed to help us lead our miserable lives....what do we have to be to get the true meaning - Einstein ?

``I think Islam, due to its sophistication and wide spectrum of influence over a person`s everyday life, requires a very educated society to be interpreted in an enlightened.`` ..... and it was revealed to a bedouin society which was about as sophisticated as Jay and his clan .... ( sorry, Jay - somehow your name conjures up Abu-Jahal - the guy most Muslims love to hate )!

``Islam, unlike Christianity, does not divide religious and state leadership amongst two different groups`` ...... thank the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost for that ..... mankind would be in deeper trouble if we still had the Holy Roman Emperor ruling out of Washington D.C.....

``The Caliphs were brilliant statesman`` ............. and they left us with a tradition of nepotism and a violent transfer of power that plagues us to this day ......

..................... I just caught a little bit of Yusuf Islam on some show on TV - the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens - another pathetic apologist for Islam who hemmed and hawed and stammered and stuttered when asked if he supported Khomeni`s Death Fatwa against Rushdie .......... it is hard to be human when you have made a pact with God. Right, Temporal ?...... but then Cat is okay because once he was human and said beautiful things like .......

i ain`t looking to fight no wars

no more talking trash

i`m not seeking any more pain

cause i`ve had enough of that

but don`t you worry it`s alright

if you should come around

any night or any day

i won`t ever let you down

................. but that was before he got religion

Jay #204

............. and who cares what Asma Jehangir has to say .... I have been told by many many people in Pakistan that ``that woman`` is a ..... and please excuse me for my Urdu here, I am quoting ``respectable`` people here ...... that woman is a gashti, a woman of loose character, of questionable lineage and quite possibly a CIA agent ......... i believe her days are numbered and, inshallah, we will be rid of this nasoor soon.... she who pits daughter against father, wife against husband and concubine against master, cannot and will not be permitted to carry out her Satanic mission ...... we all know how the Angrez took care of his problem in Salem - and so shall we ....

............. by the way Jay, i hope you are not offended by my comparing you to Abu-Jahal ..... as an adversary par excellence you should consider it quite an honor ......

In response to shankar (Reply # 206)
Dear Shankar:

Thanks for your input. It is very hard to say if the ``separate yet together`` thesis applies essentially to the previous generations. Your experience of Bombay is another proof of my thesis (by implication only) regarding the ``change of context.``

While I was writing my previous post, I was thinking about the ``Bombay`` movie, where the outlook of the hero changed perhaps as a result of his exposure to a cosmopolitanism culture. I must, however, concede to the view that cosmopolitanism exists even in a lot of smaller towns and villages of India.

I agree with your view that the South Asian Muslim cusine is one of the best in terms taste.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

HamidM#

After becoming Muslim Cat Stevens was denied entry into Israel twice.

Can you shed light. Are the Muslims only Hypocrite according to your standard.

In your liberty, can you see yourself in the pantaloon of a black in Brooklyn, destined to be drunk and ending up in AIDS or jail unless off course saved by the accursed Islam.

Or your liberty is good only if you have a house, a car, children going to two schools (Islamic and Farangi both) and wife not dating outside.

In your position it is easy to say what you are saying. In the position of Brooklyn black, that is already his life before salvation what you are preaching.

Jay first of all grow up ... whatever you were trying to prove by telling us that Jinnah died on the anniversary of his speech ... is obviously not working because

``Jinnah died on 11th September 1948 not 11th August``

Plus there isnt just one Jinnah speech .. I believe I quoted the other ones quite a few times.. As a matter of fact if you read the book

Jinnah speeches and statements 1947-48 Oxford Millenium series ... you will see that atleast half of his speeches say the same thing ...

Now Jay leave us alone! Please!

And just to make it clear... the constant repeating on Jinnah article was not my fault ... it was some practical joke Chowk staff decided to play on me for god knows what reason...

Any comments oh loving chowk wallahs?

Satyavadi #208

I am following Siagalph`s post.

He is entitled to his opinion and I respect it.

If I were in his shoes, probably I would be thinking in the same term. I think Siagalph looks more of a Bengali Nationalist with pride in his nation and its struggle. I think that is not bad.

Pragmatix#205

May be you can advise God to send 17 lower caste Hindu killed today in Bihar to heaven. At least they are killed at the hands of Hindus (which may be a criteria for Shahadat or Martyrdom)

Umair #200

You are right on point.

Affluent members of minority usually have their religion in Private , but no other hindrance. And these minorities usually excel and get their share. (excepting Ahmedis for Historical Religious reasons)

While it is the poor minorities who not only suffer alongwith its poor counterpart majority, but our police and landlords and Dada`s alongwith their natural allies Mullahs cause them to suffer doubly because they have no voice. For example Bhel. (I also know there is a strong cross border trade where women are brought from poor parts of Rajhastan for our landlords and Mullahs, eager for more than one marriage and converting Hindus with the connivance of their Indian counterpart)

I hope things change for these people of minorities as well as majority.

Just another tidbit that goes to show- Pakistan blows!

hamidm

Reply #223

Disgusting. Is it the manner you are taught to talk about a woman? What problem others can have about an individual`s lineage and who has given all of them the right to be `Conscience Keeper of the World`? Just because a Gutsy Woman has the courage to give some sense of direction and fighting ability to other unfortunate women, men brand her with all the bad names and call her `Awara` (in Urdu Press).

This `gashti` woman has the courage to stay in her country and fight for better rights for everybody. She has not migrated to other lands like many others to have a better life.

I am not holding brief for Asma Jahangir but many of you need to be restrained while commenting on individuals particularly those who have made a name by living and fighting in a society which is not sympathetic to their cause.

hamidm : #222 ``you seem be a clever fellow. but I do think that you, like many of us, have a hard time reconciling reason, logic and pure horse sense with religion, superstition, tradition and pure unadulterated fear....``

Actually, I am not too clever. I am just presenting my point of view. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. As they say, ``A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinion, still.`` You can take it or leave it, that`s your choice. But don`t make assumptions about the motivations behind it.

On the whole I do not have, ``hard time reconciling reason, logic and pure horse sense with religion, superstition, tradition and pure unadulterated fear....`` I am actually quite comfortable with my own understanding of religion, and where it fits into my life. That does not mean that you should be comfortable with my views, as well. But they do work for me. And I have never suggested that you accept them also.

In my opinion, a person trying to convince everyone that religion is the cause of all evils, is as intolerant as a person trying to convince everyone that his or her view of religion is the final answer. Both of these people should apply their views to themselves, and let the others get on with their own lives, based on their own views.

``that`s the problem I have with apologists for religion - one the one hand they say it is good for all times, for eternity and after , and then they turn around and say, but that was then - it was a different time and different circumstances``

No one needs to be an apologist for any religion. Why would someone need to apologize to you for his or her religious beliefs? Human beings commit all kinds of faults. And people should make up their own views about them. Many people think Clinton is the greatest guy in the world. Others think he is disgusting sex addict. Each group has a point. The important thing is not to force it on each other.

``I just caught a little bit of Yusuf Islam on some show on TV - the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens - another pathetic apologist for Islam who hemmed and hawed and stammered and stuttered when asked if he supported Khomeni`s Death Fatwa against Rushdie.``

If Cat Stevens hemmed and hawed, then he is doing what he thinks is right. What exactly does the hemming and hawing of Cat Stevens have to do with religion. He is one person, and will look at religion based on his own outlook on life. Maybe he supports Khomeini`s view, and maybe he opposes it. That`s up to him. I don`t think anyone appointed him the representative of any religion, so he is not speaking for everyone. There are people who have donated their whole life savings in the line of religion, and there are people who kill in the name of same religion. Does that mean the religion is inherently bad or good?

The point I was trying to make was a religion like Islam (or any code of life, for that matter) will be interpreted differently by different people. Irani girls cover themselves completely during the Olympics. Moroccan girls where bathing suits during Olympics. Pakistani girls are in between. All three are Muslims. The conservative mullah and liberal anti-mullah could spend their whole life arguing about which one is right and which one is wrong? Both would be wasting their time. As long as each athlete is convinced she are doing the right thing, then each one of them is correct (as long as they are not harming anyone else). This is called acceptance and tolerance.

To lash out at any religion, and declare it the cause of the end of the civilized world, in my opinion, is being as intolerant as the person who forces everyone to accept his or her own definition of a religion. A belligerent anti-mullah is just as dangerous as a belligerent mullah.