Hidden Hindus

Aaker Patel#3

I think you are right according to Indian standard that Friday Times is exceptional publication. (After seeing independent): Zee TV)

It is not so exceptional from a Pakistani standard. Probably most free press in World and in South Asia without any doubt.

Try to change India.

And if you are satisfied with your condition then don`t come and preach us secularism and democracy. We have it better than you, if you call what India has as secularism and democracy.

http://saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/sati1.htm

http://www.mcc.org/pr/1999/10-15/BDC2.html

http://detnews.com/1999/religion/9909/17/09170251.htm

The BJP`s Rise to Power and the Indian Muslims

by Taimoor Ashraf 1

``The underlying principle of BJP ideology is that the salvation of India lies in

the self-conscious unity of Hindus as a religious and cultural group. The

problem, however, is that Hinduism is an extremely diverse and complex

religion. On the one hand, a significant component of the Hindu idiom is a

well established and rooted caste system, which has tended to work as a

divisive agent. On the other hand, the Hindu idiom itself assumes

particular/peculiar local and regional characteristics, which fragments Hindu

cultural unity and undermines the notion of a uniform religious community.

The question, therefore, that Hindu revivalist leaders have faced has been

the following: how to unite the Hindus given the peculiar character of

Hinduism? The approach that they have followed has been the tried and true

method of presenting a divided community with a common enemy. In India`s

history, the threat of Islam and the Muslims has been the instrument used

by the BJP.

Yet, the BJP and its ideological and political allies have repeatedly said that

they are not against Muslims, because they believe that Muslims are only

Muslims by birth and not by blood. By blood they are still Hindus. They also

believe that the true culture of Muslims is the Hindu culture. Hindu revivalists

argue that it is unfortunate that the Indian Muslims do not recognize and

accept this ``truth.`` They also say that they respect Muslims not because

they are Muslims and believe in Islam, but rather because they are not

``Muslims`` (in the intrinsic/inherent sense of the term).5 Hindu revivalists try

to arouse a sense of fear and deprivation among the Hindus. But in

post-colonial India, Muslims have always been subordinate to the Hindus;

consequently, their strategy has not been very successful. Therefore, the

revivalists have attacked the central and state governments for favoring

Muslims and have tried to make the notion of ``appeasement of Muslims``

central to the strategy of Hindu unification, both psychologically and

emotionally, and to somehow try to transform it into cultural and political

Hindu unity.``



1.Is there any doubt about India`s past moves with the minorities? if there is read Passive Voices by a Hindu Author( sorry don`t have the book with me can`t remember the name)

2. Did I say Pakistan is doing a good job at protecting its minorities? All I said its bot good but its not dooms day either. My personal experience( and unbiased as I have consciously tried to make it) is that most minorities in Pakistan are ok.( excluding the TV, DISH , gee I was only trying to give you an economicly based idea of their well being)

3. Islam is not a religion, Its deen, a code of life. Its not Madhab and so I think that there may be nothing wrong with having an Islamic state, because had it been Islamic in the true sense, it would be truly secular and democratic.

4. I know some Indain family friends who project India to be a state where their being muslim meant working ten times harder to climb most of the social, economical and political ladders, if one is not already lucky enough to be in that group. No, I am not making that my deciding factor, its just one of the many contributors.

5. Chauvinistic? me? ok I`m sorry I may have gotten carried away, but you have to accept the fact that India is no saint. I wish I had more time to send you detailed papers of its two faced mentality. And I repeat, Pakistan isn`t that bad... In fact people are so tremendously recognizing the need to be more tolerant, and you, Mr. Universal representative of being`` citizen of the world`` are leading people to think otherwise. I don`t think you were quoting form Dawn, maybe a kid called you that when you went to Pakistan. I apologies on behalf of my country-child. Bachaa hey, let it go... :)

One last request, Leave TNT for us to be implemented, and give us time. You watch the movies on it.

latter

Regards.

Well said Ras. We should learn to look beyond religion.

jntuece99:

thanks for your input, BTW, I`m Aisha.

Wassalam

Apparently, the main theme of the article seems to be the persecution of the minorities in a theocratic state which is well presented ... except the writer`s presumptuous effort to flaunt his/her seemingly new-found love in hinduism which in my view doesnt fit into the main core...

Satywadi,

Sir, Please for the record also state how many times you have been to Pakistan?

Also you have made a historically inaccurate claim in your post. Had the original Pakistan plan been accepted the Number would have come out to be 32%.

Estimated Minorities in Pakistan should have been close to 8 to 10% had the people who left for India chosen to stay.

Please refrain from making baseless accusations. Ah but I forget, you are only fulfilling your part as an Indian. Your personal attack on Aisha was most displeasing but then what isnt about your kind.

Sarwari,

You are right, the truth isnt that bad. One of my teachers in 6th grade was this beautiful distinguished lady in a sari who was Hindu. I remember her being very patriotic. All her work had the Pakistani flag in it. Hindus have made numerous contributions to Pakistan.

However it is necessary to realize the dream that Jinnah had....

``In course of time the Hindu Community and the Muslim community will vanish not in a religious sense because that is the personal faith of an individual but in a political sense.``

I believe that humanity requires of Pakistan to reaffirm the promise its founder made to the multitudes of Pakistan when he told them ...

``You are free, you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or anyother place of worship in this great state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed-that has nothing to do with the business of the state.``

Aisha this is our ideal ...

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

It was quite interesting to read about hindus in Pakistan. The author writes about hindus--mostly in Sindh.

Growing up in Bombay, I have many Sindhi friends. They are all hindus whose parents migrated from Pakistan at the time of the partition. Even though none of them have ever been to Pakistan, they still identify themselves as ``Shikarpuris`` or ``Hyderabadis`` etc etc

I have agreat admiration for these Sindhis. Their parents came from Pakistan as refuges with nothing but the shirt on their backs. Many settled abroad --like Hong Kong, Singapore, Lagos etc. Its absolutely amazing what these Sindhi hindus have accomplished in the last 50 years.

Today ,Sindhis are one of the most prosperous communities in India. I dont mean to sound perjorative, but they will put Jews to shame. It seems business acumen is in their blood.

Despite India`s socialism, Sindhis have become multi-millionaires. They neatly circumvented India`s socialism by developing their own banking system. They lent money to each other to start businesses. Money transactions are made verbally, (nothing is written on paper)--just on faith.

Some of the biggest business tycoons in Bombay are Sindhis. A large portion of the film industry money is controlled by Sindhis. The Sindhis abroad have hit it even bigger. Hindujas & Chainrais are Sindhis. If you go to the Carribean Islands, most of the shops are owned by Sindhis.

In medical college, my dorm mates were mostly Sindhis. Some of Bombay`s most prominent physicians are Sindhis. In fact, thanks to Sindhi philanthropists, Bombay`s premier hospitals--Jaslok & National are funded by Sindhis. Both these hospitals come close to matching any seen in the US.

My medical college collegues migrated to the US along with me in the early 80s. All of them are successful physicians in the US. However, what sets them apart is their business acumen. Right from the time they started their residencies, they would put a part of their meager income in the stock market. In those days I used to laugh at them when they were discussing ``wierd`` names like Microsoft & Intel. Well, today ,they are the ones who are laughing at me. I`m kicking myself for not listening to them. Most of them are in their 40s & have made enough money to retire many times over. They practise medicine because they love it & dont give a damn about things like ``managed care`` or HMO`s.

Other communities in India like Marwaris & Gujeratis also are tremendously wealthy because of a brilliant in-built business acumen. But what sets these Sindhis apart is that they started from zero. One can only wonder what these Sindhis could have done for Pakistan, had they remained there. Its rather dissappointing to know that most Pakistani Sindhi hindus are confined to remote rural hamlets, with a few notable exceptions, who try to remain as inconspicuous as possible. In contrast, Sidhis in India are usually identified as urbane, sophisticated & incredibly enterprising & sometimes quite flamboyant.

Indian Sindhis in politics are usually virulently anti-Pakistan, because of bitter memories. Ram Jethmalani & LK Advani are prime examples.

I understand that I`m making broad sweeping generalisations. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I just wanted to point out how a community that started out with nothing, has now become one of the most prosperous in India. The next generation of Sindhis are now entering world capitalism in a big way (their parents already had a foothold 50 yrs ago). I have no doubt that in the next 50 years they will have even more success---more power to them!

fairdinkum #28
``That`s where ``baghal main churi aur mooN peh ram ram`` is appropriate to use :)``
I don`t quite get it, do you care clarify?

btw,do you realise by your definition of `Indians` and hence I presume `Pakistanis`, Pervez Musharraf is an Indian and LK Advani is a Pakistani. Care to swap :-) ?

Sadhana

re shankar #37:

Shankar:

I`ve also been impressed by the business acumen of the Sindhis in the US. Like the Gujrati Patels they are extremely closely-knit and yet very open to outsiders. Maybe herein lies their strength. And as a casual observation I as a Pakistani find them more fun to be with compared to Indians from some other parts of India with the possible exception of Sikhs. They are well-educated and cosmopoliton but not more so than Indians of other ethnicities. But there is a perceptible difference in outlook and demeanour. I`ve also noticed that these folks are generally better looking than the average Indian and the women they marry are from Maharashtra(and usually very pretty!!) and non-Sindhi. Is it just my experience or do Sindhis tend to marry outside the clan? Wouldn`t that lead to weakening the community solidarity or is it the other way round? Care to comment.

Shandhana:

Nice article. Although some of the cohesiveness and flow of your earleir pieces was missing. An off day perhaps or the primoridal soup still cooking ? :)

later

-sac

sadna #39
“I don`t quite get it, do you care clarify? “

Uff! Sadhna aap koo hindi mahravroon ki class lani paray gi :) Do you remember my explanation of “baghal main churi aur mooN peh ram ram” ? ok, if you really didn’t get it let me know.

“btw,do you realise by your definition of `Indians` and hence I presume `Pakistanis`, Pervez Musharraf is an Indian and LK Advani is a Pakistani. Care to swap :-) ?”

True… Not only Musharraf, you can have all the past and present generals of Pak army… Gen. Zia was also Indian by birth. We can arrange for his remains (unfortunately, we only have his teeth) to be transferred to jamah mosque delhi or amritsar or anywhere else … your choice.. and since I am in a generous mood today, you can also keep Advani. :) Just send us sumita patel. she’d be living as somebody else right? So find her and we can have our swap :-)

fairdinkum #42
What I didnot get is the muhaavra`s relevance here. Re Generals etc, you are too generous :-). And should we know of Ms Patel? If not, do you know finding a `hidden Hindu` in India is much much more difficult than in Pakistan :-)?

Sadhana

Regarding the article: Depressing.. eye opening, to some extent.. important. Personal anecdotes do tend to illustrate such situations with a more poignant immediacy than the colder facts and figures that people like to bring up. It brings up feelings reminiscent of a Herald (Newsline?) some time back that traced minority religious sites in Pakistan, and how shabbily they have been handled. I hope that the gov takes these issues to mind. The blasphemy laws give us a few high-profile examples of abuse of a bad law.. but the gradual, insidious destruction is more dangerous.. and more final. If Pakistan eliminates its minorities it won`t be in an orgy of bloodletting, but a deterioration of their righst as human beings and citizens of the `Islamic` republic. And sadly, there will be those who will say we`d be richer for getting rid of our `impurities`!

As an aside.. it`s not just the Hindus who are leaving Pakistan, you know.

And Temporal, what HAVE you done to Jay? It`s obvious that wasn`t the real Jay who posted on this board!

YLH #36:

``Satywadi,

Sir, Please for the record also state how many times you have been to Pakistan?``

Will you ever get my nick right, Sir? :)

Now to the more important issue.

I have never been to Pakistan. But do you need to personally go to a country to know what its consitution states? Do you need to visit a country and count the minorities in a country to know their percentage ?

Have you been to India? I think, no. But does that preclude you from thrashing Indian secularism, etc etc? Can I also ask you to shut up about India, with the argument that you do not know anything about India, since you have never been there or if you have, you obviously didnt do a survey about the things you talk about?

Do you have to go to Somalia to know that people are starving there?

So please, dont present this preposterous argument

whenever anyone makes any comment about Pakistan that you do not like.

``Also you have made a historically inaccurate claim in your post. Had the original Pakistan plan been accepted the Number would have come out to be 32%.

Estimated Minorities in Pakistan should have been close to 8 to 10% had the people who left for India chosen to stay.``

Here is something from Hamza Alavi`s (presumably a Pakistani) thesis ``Pakistan and Islam: Ethnicity and Ideology``.

URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sangat/pakisltt.htm

// *

Census, 1931

TOTAL POPULATION (IN MILLIONS)

U.P Punjab Bengal Sindh

Total: 48.4 28.5 51.0 3.9

Muslims 7.2 14.9 27.8 2.8

Muslims % (14.8%) (52.4%) (54.5%) (72.8%)

*//

So by 1931 Census, minorities were roughly 48% and 28% of the populations of Punjab and Sindh respectively. Punjab accounts for 55% of Pakistani population. Sindh for 20%. Now if we take into account the fact that the percentage of Non-Muslims was higher in what is Indian Punjab now (BUT its population is one third of Pakistani Punjab), we can still by rough mathematical approximations estimate the minority population percentage of areas comprising Pakistan to be atleast 30% at Partition.

So there goes your 8 to 10% number down the drain. Dont make claims without substantiating them.

``Please refrain from making baseless accusations. Ah but I forget, you are only fulfilling your part as an Indian. Your personal attack on Aisha was most displeasing but then what isnt about your kind.``

Now this part of your post was unwarranted.

I didnot attack Sarwari personally.

Pleas refrain from talking about``my kind`` and other such things. Only because we choose not to indulge in name calling doesnt mean we cannot. We do not want you to start crying again and whining about the absence of fairness on Chowk and making pleas to others to stand up for your follies.

Satyavadi

Krashid #31:

``You are the real and true face of Hinduism.``

So I am ? Well, I dont know about this, but you should probably know now that I am not a Hindu. Now, go bury your face in sand.

``We can criticize the treatment of minorities in our country (although this is small issue compared to overall) and that is our right as an INDEPENDENT people.(Independence from India):)``

No one questioned this right of yours. My only crib is that you guys dont seem to exercise it too often. But then you guys are independent of us, so maybe I shouldnot comment.

``Anyway if you like K for Kafir, that is your choice, otherwise K is for ``Kutta`` or dog.``

Yeah, whatever. But its not a question of my liking, its whats written in the Urdu texts. And if a columnist of Dawn is to be believed its K for Kafir. If you guys want to put up a real pciture of a Kafir besides K in the Urdu text, instead of a caricature Kafir with a Choti on his head, I can send mine in the mail. I dont know though if I qualify for Pakistani text Kafir, since I am non-Hindu. Do let me know.

``Sadism has no limit.``

So finally, self realization has dawned. Or am I hoping too much?

``Since you are no God or Avtar, beware of hurling stones while in glass house.``

Well, the glass of my house is thicker and sturdier than the one of your house. So I dont mind hurling stones as long as the opponent is you.

``Anyway I am impressed by your Liberalism all over India. Particularly in most recent history in Babri mosque fiasco, in Bombay riots, in Kashmir, in burning of churches, killing of priests and Muslims etc.``

Well an I wouldnot call that liberalism. But a Pakistani can, because everything is relative. So compared to whats ensrhined in your constitution, all that probably still qualifies as liberalism. Oh well..

``And we thank God that we have Shadhana Minhas in our country. Of your variety we have enough. But they are illiterate enough to be away from this board.``

So you mean the illiterates of Pakistan are more unbiased and balanced?Thanks, I always suspected that. With the supposed literates here calling Indians and/or Hindus badbudar janwars, I think the illiterates of Pakistan are its only rational segment and our only hope.

Thank you.

Satyavadi

sarwari #34 (Its a long post):

``1.Is there any doubt about India`s past moves with the minorities? if there is read Passive Voices by a Hindu Author( sorry don`t have the book with me can`t remember the name)``

Dont you think you should not base your opinion on one book by some author even if he is a Hindu?

India came into the picture because you chose to write `` we should ensure we don`t do with them what India did or still does with its minorities.`` Now what is the justification for that statement?

Is ``India`s treatment of its minorities`` something like Holocaust that everyone knows about and accepts?. Obviously not. So should you have not provided in what context and based on what you made that statement? Was it relevant at all, when you were merely talking about Pakistani minorities? Should you be comparing everything Pakistani to everything Indian? Is surpassing Indian in anything the be all of Pakistan?

``Did I say Pakistan is doing a good job at protecting its minorities? All I said its bot good but its not dooms day either. My personal experience( and unbiased as I have consciously tried to make it) is that most minorities in Pakistan are ok.( excluding the TV, DISH , gee I was only trying to give you an economicly based idea of their well being)``

You didnt say that. But you did say ``we should ensure we don`t do with them what India did or still does with its minorities``. Now if you could make an unsupported statement without any justification or provocation, you should not object to me merely stating some facts about Pakistan and showing you the mirror and that too in retaliation. Fair enough? What do you say?

BTW, if the ``maasi (maid servant?)`` of your relative is doing well because she had satellite dish etc and indicative of the economic status of the minorities on the whole, then Muslims of India are all very very prosperous, because three of my Muslims classmates came to the US for studies withough aid and thus spent like 15 lakh rupees each for their Master`s degrees. Hope you get my point.

``Islam is not a religion, Its deen, a code of life. Its not Madhab and so I think that there may be nothing wrong with having an Islamic state, because had it been Islamic in the true sense, it would be truly secular and democratic.``

An Islamic secular state seems truly oxymoronic. I think even your bud YLH will agree with that.

BTW, Islam maybe a code of life of Muslims, but is it fair to impose the code of life of Muslims

on people of other faiths? Should a State decide whose religion is what? Why does a State need to stamp religion on Passports, unless that measure is to be used for discrimination(positive or negative) or differentiation among its citizens at one point or other?

``I know some Indain family friends who project India to be a state where their being muslim meant working ten times harder to climb most of the social, economical and political ladders, if one is not already lucky enough to be in that group. No, I am not making that my deciding factor, its just one of the many contributors.``

True, there is discrimination against Muslims in India, but it is NOT state or constitution sanctioned. People everywhere have their own biases, own preferences, the State can only try to circumvent them not abolish them. A smalltime Hindu shopkeeper will prefer a Hindu employee to a Muslim; much like his Muslim counterpart will prefer a Muslim. At higher echelons caste, religion etc get less and less relevant (for e.g. for professional colleges only your Marks in particular exams matter and the exams are centrally conducted with the identity of the examinee anonymous to the examiner). Caste, region and religion based affinities do exist everywhere and more so in South Asia. Muslims being a minority and with a significant portion of the elite having moved to Pakistan, do face more problems than say Hindus in India. But to allege there is systematic discrimination, is inaccurate, incorrect.

We can talk about this more, if you so wish.

``Chauvinistic? me? ok I`m sorry I may have gotten carried away, but you have to accept the fact that India is no saint. I wish I had more time to send you detailed papers of its two faced mentality.``

You apologize and then you talk about ``India`s twofaced mentality``. Thats exactly where the problem is. OK let me say this at the top of my voice. INDIA IS NO SAINT. INDIA IS NO SAINT.

OK? Now, there is no denying the fact that India is no saint. But India does have constitutional provisions that ensure equlity to all citizens (why just Muslims or Hindus?), has a judiciary that is slack, tardy but still mostly uncorrupted, has parties that may espouse any ideology but still pledge commitment to the constitution and has a vigilant Press. Now all this didnt prevent destruction of the derelict Mosque, but 8 years after that the Mandir is still no where in sight. All this didnt prevent Graham Staines murder ( there is more to that issue than plain Hindu fundamentalist vs Christian missionaries, btw), but does ensure that MF Hussain can get away with nude paintings of a Hindu Goddes (imagine something like this about Islam by a Hindu artist in Pakistan, and still feted as the best painter in India and continue to be honored etc. So again with everything, a George Fernandez can be the Defence Minister of Indian and an Abdul Kalam can head India`s nuclear program, while an Azim Premji can adorn the Richest Indian title.

``And I repeat, Pakistan isn`t that bad... In fact people are so tremendously recognizing the need to be more tolerant``

Which people are you talking about? I guess yourself and your friends etc who all (again I am guessing) belong to the upper middle, upper class, English speaking educated elite of Pakistan (Among the elite also there are Krashids calling Hindus `badbudar janwars`). Basically 10% of Pakistan. How about those `teeming millions` (sorry for the cliche) living in villages educating their sons in Madrassahs that teach only the extremist version of Islam with no contemporary subjects? Had Pakistan been getting more tolerant would there have been Shia-Sunni clashes, killing in mosques, all of which didnt use to happen a decade back?

``, and you, Mr. Universal representative of being `` citizen of the world`` are leading people to think otherwise. I don`t think you were quoting form Dawn, maybe a kid called you that when you went to Pakistan. I apologies on behalf of my country-child. Bachaa hey, let it go... :)``

Well I am flattered that you think I can lead people to believe something which is not true. I have problems convincing people of universal truths, and here is a Ma`am with some much faith in me. I am overwhelmed :)

But, believe me I have no intention to mislead anyon. Only if you guys stopped making baseless or grossly exaggerated accusations against India. And ofcourse stopped generously sending the `mujahideen` :)

BTW, I have never been to Pakistan, so apology not accepted. Believe me, that incident was indeed related in some column in Dawn a few months ago. I donot have the article, so dont ask me to reproduce it. I leave it to you, to believe it or leave it.

``One last request, Leave TNT for us to be implemented, and give us time. You watch the movies on it.``

I thought you guys had discarded it, once the purpose was served. Or atleast thats what Jinnah wanted according to YLH. You can go ahead and implement the TNT or do whatever, but please no ``hindu pefidy`` justifications for that if you care for your own 1.5% Hindu population.

Waiting for your response.

Satyavadi

PS: I note no one has refuted most of my points, only they have attacked my intentions.

Satyavadi (Just for you)

First of all, my friend Prem Bodagala went to Pakistan and found it different from what he had expected through malicious propaganda on chowk by the Indians..... and the media. So you might actually consider going to Pakistan before making these generalizations.

Had you read Hamza Alavi`s book properly you would also discern that much like myself, he is also talking about the original Pakistan plan which would have all of Punjab and Bengal. These provinces were partitioned in 1947.

Had you stopped and read my posts on the other thread completely instead of violently attacking me and fighting for mother India ... you would understand what I am trying to say better.

WHy do I even bother with your kind. I guess it is because of Prem and his family that I have any respect for Indians ... otherwise there wouldnt be any.

Satyavadi

And name calling wasnt started by me but by your kind ... which I seriously dont regard HUMAN anymore! (Note the word : anymore) WIth the exception of Prem and Prem`s family ofcourse.

The day an Indian can make me cry is going to be the last day of my life.... Like I say sir, and is obvious by Pakistanis` general behavior on and of the net ... I for Indian I for Insignificant ...

``What kind of self righteous bullshit is that. Wake up and smell the coffee you Ms.Pakistani chauvinist``. Satywadi 15!

Are they or are they not your words ????? Does it or Does it not constitute a personal attack?

I personally have a lot of better things to do then argue with Indians ... like Exams ...

Please Satyavadi or Sameer or Suneel whatever your name is ... grow up and end your biases. I know you people can start emailing each other asking each other to gang up on me... the term WE is very suspicious .. but you know what.. I wonder what obsession drives Indians to come to a Pakistani site and do that.

Krashid :Correction! Satyavadi is the real face of India not Hinduism.

Now sorry for that digression ... continue with the real discussion. The minorities in Pakistan and the solution to their problems ... I am willing to discuss this with Pakistanis only ofcourse...

Yasser Hamdani

And what are you talking about

WHere in Pakistan does it have K for Kafir in Urdu text???????? Like I said ... the real situation is quite different.

Please leave us alone!