Hidden Hindus

Re: Slink

Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!

Thank you for an intelligent, empathetic and a bitter-sweet article.

You have aptly show cased the plight of the Pakistani minorities by asking that question if the minorities love Pakistan, then why does not Pakistan love its minorities?

Ciao!

ummmm...hideous hindus!

i think the friday times is an exceptional publication.

regards

aakar patel

All rational Hindus and Muslims in Pakistan could move to India in exchange we will send the the Saffron brigade to party with the Taleban oriented Pakistanis till they all see the light.

To shandana,

A really great article, I admire your knowledge of hinduism, I rarely feel humbled, this is one instance.

A minor technicality, `brahman` is the formless into which everything merge, `Brahma` is the creator god.

regards

Jay.

Assalamalaikum

Oh, how Positive :) You always beautifully extract karelas out of everything.

Actually you write very well.

``Pakistan doesn`t love its minorities back`` is a gross generalization. Our flag has a place for them and though it may not be bridged that well to practice, things may not be that bad. The maasi of our neighbor was a Hindu and I was very curious to know of how they live, so I found out pretty interesting things. They have well organized communities, they have a dish and TV at home, she knew of all the latest Indian movies and from the standards of lower class, I thought she and most of her community members lived comfortably. I asked her if she feels ok here and she said, ``Baji yey hamara ghar hey, haa nahito`` BTW, her name was Mafia :)

Though we need to do a lot more for them and their rights, we should ensure we don`t do with them what India did or still does with its minorities. We shouldn`t mingle religious practices into the political sphere to the extent of choking the minorities. I have come across a lot of articles and protests regarding this, though sometimes it gets to me as another propaganda by those who ``love`` Pakistan`s welfare and sometimes all seems to blow out of proportion. All countries have their share of violations against minorities. I am not justifying ours but, please don`t look at things through articles and media hypes, the real thing is not as bad.

Wassalam.

Aisha

Slink,

A good one! Some of my initial reactions:

1. Something like this is a rarity in the Pak media. Rarer still are such obseravations by a Muslim. You yourself being a minority member, are able to be more forthright, factual, devoid of your own judgemental qualifications, YKWIM!

2. Hopefully, all those who try to liberate the minorities from the oppressions accross the Border will begin at home.

3. Does anyone have any reliable(!) statistics as to the Hindu, Parsi, Sikhs, and Christian population before the Partition in Pakistan in general, and in the major cities like Karachi, Lahore, Hyderabad, etc!

4. Just curious. Have you, Shandana, visited India or any other country and observed the life-style of these minority communities. Just wondered how you would relate it to the one in Pakistan!

Kant......

Good writing slink, as usual. :)

Not to belittle the minority status of Hindus in Pakistan, but don`t all ``different`` people face similar hardships?

``The parents say he gets into fights because he is constantly provoked with taunts of ``Hindu %#%`` and ``Hindu &&

Thank you.

Sorry, I found the article disjointed and without focus. Some parts of it, especially ones describing Hindu festivals, looked like a cut-paste job. The author asks `What is it like?` at least a dozen times which is irritating. Finally where is the analysis? There is no analysis, no insights, just a few references to Hindu citizens in Pakistan strung together. Altogether, the article was quite disappointing.

Since I`m from what you call ``Tamil South India`` I couldn`t understand those hindi/urdu/punjabi? phrases. A translation would have helped.

Also, the South should have been classified as Dravidian, if at all. Tamil is only one of the four major languages there--along with the Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam, not counting the lesser tongues/dialects such as Konkini, Coorgi, etc.

Dear Shandana,

Thanks for sharing this article with us at the Chowk. I hope you wouldnt mind if I borrow your space to thank a gentleman who has a profound effect on the life of many people.

Mr. Ranomal S. Hirani was my teacher and the Head of the Department of Industrial Engineering at the Dawood College of Engineering and Technology, Karachi. Mr. Hirani is considered as the pioneer of Industrial Engineering and he was also one of the main driving force behind the introduction of this descipline of Engineering in Pakistan. It was not possible without his relentless and selfless efforts to take this discipline through the gauntlet of Pakistani bureaucracy.

It is not just me, all of the senior students who studied in the earlier batches are grateful for his affection and personal attention. Most of his students are serving in all kinds of industry, education, research and development, and defence industry in Pakistan and abroad.

Thank you Mr. Hirani for your contribution in the development of technology in Pakistan. You are our hero.

Shan:

Read this earlier. Sent a comment to TFT. They are allergic to pseudonyms. And I....

As Mahajirzadeh lamented we should try to become ‘insaan’ first before bowing down to our gods of Religion and Nationalism.

There is something I posted on Harish’s board. It has greater ‘relevance’ here. So dear Shandy, if you don’t mind I will reproduce it here.

love,

t
__________________________________________________


CONFESSION

(This must appear today. Since I have three or four articles already in the pipeline I think it will be unfair to ask the Editor [She is smiling, and nodding appreciatively, I can feel it;)] to let this supersede them. Besides this needs some whipping up to shape it into a decent article. Hence I seek forgivance in advance from all, specially Harish for using this space.)

DURGA PUJA

(reproduced and condensed from several sites on the net)

Origin of Durga - the mythology

In the ancient times, a demon called `Mahishasura` earned the favour of `Lord Shiva` after a long meditation. Shiva, pleased with the devotion of the demon, blessed him with a boon that no man or Deity would be able to kill him. Empowered with the boon, Mahishasura started his reign of terror over the World. People were killed mercilessly and even the Gods were driven out from heaven.

The Gods scared and unable to combat him, requested Lord Shiva, Lord Bramha, Lord Vishnu to stop Mahishasura`s tyranny. In answer, the three Gods combined their devine energy and summoned up a feminine form so brilliantly glaring that it illuminated the heavens. From the glow emerged Devi Durga, a beautiful yellow woman with ten arms riding a lion. Despite her grace she bore a menancing expression, for Durga was born to kill. Fully grown and beautiful Durga was immediately armed by the gods and sent forth against Mahishasura bearing in each of her ten hands, symbols of their divine power. Vishnu`s discus; Shiva`s trident; Varuna`s conchshell; Agni`s flaming dart; Vayu`s bow; Surya`s quiver and arrow; Yama`s iron rod; Indra`s thunderbolt; Kubera`s club and a garland of snakes from Shesha and a lion as a charger from Himalayas.

Riding a lion, she attacked Mahishasura. After a fierce battle, Durga transformed into Devi Chandika, the most ferocious form of the Goddess, and beheaded Mahishasura.

Bengalis worship Durga as the mother goddess, the epitome of `Shakti`(divine power), to deliver us from the evil and bring peace and prosperity in our lives. But the most interesting part of Durga Puja is that, instead of placing Durga on a high alter and worshipping her from a distance the Bengalis embrace her in their hearts and make her an inseperable member of the family. We welcome Durga to the earth as our daughter who comes at her parents` home for her annual visits. Durga stays for four days-Shashti, Saptami, Ashtami and Nabami along with her children, Ganesha, Laxmi, Kartik and Saraswati and sets for her husband`s abode on Vijaya Dashami.
______________________________

Why this intro about Durga Puja?

Well, it is the most important festival for Bengalis. And the beginning of this festival is also the birthday of my sister M, whom I met a second time through Chowk. (How did we meet? That’s another long story!)

It seems the letter M has acquired an undue significance in my personal life.

Today is the first day of Durga Puja, an auspicious occasion according to M. She was born this day. I wish her peace, health and happiness. (A and R, take good care of her. Love you all.)
Dear fellow Chowkies, since you have allowed me this intrusion, let me share one related thought. May I?

On other boards we are bludgeoning each other to death over seemingly meaningless and irreconcilable differences. Who is a Muslim who is not one. Who is a greater leader who isn’t. All the while the poor live in denial of basic necessities of life. Roti, Kapra, Makaan and DIGNITY.

I find these pissing matches distasteful and generally avoid them But lately I have found fresh infusion of concerned thinking here. Inter-actors who advocate doing something anything positive to alleviate the conditions --- be they environmental or people related. More power to you, folks.

And a Happy Birthay, dear M, once again. And Happy Durga Puja.

May our gods bless us all with health and inner happiness.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I am sure that some muslims in India, especially in Kashmir, feel suffocated

the same way as the hindus in Pakistan. Why cant we have a voluntary excahnge

of such people? There should be a ministry for religious repatriation in each

country. Allthe religious minorites who feel oppressed can sell their belongings either in the open market or to the govt and move to their preferred country.

This can mean a new, fulfilling life for millions of people in the subcontinent

who are trapped in a uncaring society for no fault of theirs. It might even reduce

hostilities in Kashmir and elsewhere.

The other alternative of carving your own kingdom from big countries like

India and Pakistan wont work. It is just too futile and people are wasting their precious lives trying it. Assuming that they achieve it somehow, the job is not

still done. To have better life standard than before, it has to be managed well. People who are good fighting for their own country may not be good at managing it.

One need to only look at Pakistan as proof of that:)

sarwari #6:

``.. we should ensure we don`t do with them what India did or still does with its minorities.``

What kind of self righteous bullshit is that. Wake up and smell the coffee you Ms. Pakistani chauvinist. Dont forget you belong to Pakistan.

* A country with a State religion

*A country where there are two classes of people, Muslim and Non Muslim.

*A country which thinks its its business to declare a particular community (Ahmedis) Non Muslim.

*A country that stamps the religion of its nationals on their passports.

*A country which had 35-40% minority population at partition or just before it has now a less than 5% minority population.

*A country that REFUSES to honor ITS ONLY NOBEL LAUREATE Abdus Salam, ONLY because he was an Ahmedi.

*A country that teaches K for Kafir with the picture of a Hindu and Z for Zaalim with picutre of a Sikh to its toddlers in Urdu classes.

*A country where one of the ESSENTIAL things a 5th grader must know is the difference between Hindus and Muslims, Hindu treachery and the JUSTIFICATION OF PARTITION which is ofcourse Hindu perfidy and treachery.

*A country where supposedly presitigious newspapers like DAWN make daily references to Hindus, Banias, treacherous Banias, Cunning Hindus and Shrewd Indians and use all the terms interchangeably.

* A country which obviously doesnt care for its Hindu citizens with ALL newspapers somewhere or the other commenting on Hindu treachery, Hindu perfidy, Hindi nature of Munh pe Raam, baghal mein Chhuri.

*A country which had destroyed a lot of its beautiful temples even before a derelict mosque was destroyed in India and many more after that incident.

*A country in which the insignificant Hindu population still feels threatened enough to adopt Christian names or flee to India.

*A country which can count its minority achievers/celebrities on finger tips though the 5% minorities amount to 7 million people (This article is a glaring example).

* A country where history starts with Mohammad Bin Kasim`s invasion of Sindh. Where all Hindu rulers of past are either ignored or vilified (Raja Dahir was ofcourse a tyrant: You dont need to justify Kasim`s invasion, people). Where the entire the pre-Islamic GLORIOUS past was Buddhist (Ofcourse how can anything good be Hindu?). SO Ashik can be reluctantly accepted a hero (he converted to Buddhism ) but the founder of his dynasty Chandragupta is not. Why? Because he was a Hindu for most of his life and then became a Jain monk.

* A country that has a blasphemy law only for Islam. Makes sesne, because if the law were applied to blasphemers of say of Hinduism, half the population would have to be put under bars.

*A country where a 6year old kid calls a visitor from India, Hindu kutta. Abusing Hindus and calling them names is so common apparently, that the kid doesnt think twice before blurting out something that is routinely spoken at home and other places. This is from a column in Dawn, where the author makes reference to this incident.

Now here is what India did/does to its minorities.

1. Everyone equal under the constitution

2. No state religion

3. All official posts open to any citizen irrespective of faith (Two Presidents, countless ministers, atleast a couple dozen chief ministers of various states have been Muslims until now)

4. No marking of religion on passports

5. No discriminatory blasphemy law

6. No one`s religion determined by the State

Wake up, and before you make other such arrogant and chauvinistic statements do some introspection. If you really care about the minorities of your country, stop comparing to India. Compare yourself to Iran because India is far better even with Babri masjid, even with Graham Staines and everything else, than you guys, and with your TNT justifications you will never reach India`s level in that respect.

Satyavadi

Temporal #re 13

After reading this article I thought I would not respond to it. It is sad that we treat human beings based solely on their gods. I do not believe in ultimate truth(brahman) or only truth(allah). Religions and Gods are experiences of Men and they can take us only that far; further it is only our travails and our believes...regardless of any symbolism we indulge in. Religion, I have felt is all commmon sense with lot of annexures.

And if your post #13 is from the heart then it is too good.

Your Durga Puja wishes was a very warm gesture.

Have a good day...{biscuit.. :) }

great work shandana...

Pullu

Reply TO SARWARI # 6

Hi,

I concur with you to the extent that the real scenario in pakistan is not as bad as it is projected out to be.

But i take objection to what you say about India. You said that `` we should ensure we don`t do with them what India did or still does with its minorities. ``

Sir, i feel this is grossly overstated. I know that i am saying this on the background of the worst ever insult perpetrated on a religious minority ( i am referring to babri masjid ), but i feel the religious freedom enjoyed by the minorities in India is very high. I wont state any press clippings or international reports to support this, but i tell it from my personal experiences.

ya, we had pretty nasty incidents in our post independance history, the intermittent clashes in the Nawabi towns such as hyderabad etc., probably the muslims in bombay will never be the same again, but u must understand that India is a huge country sir. and poor .

that is the key word . POOR . if u trace the origin of any of these clashes, it will be either politically motivated or the underlying reason will be economics. it is an outcome of ``pie being constant.``

I again know that i am making a gross generalization, there is this incident of Babri masjid and some other incidents which might not lend themselves to these theories. But more often than not, these clashes are either politically motivated or due to economic reasons,

Here i am talking about clashes between Hindus and Muslims in Hyderabad in early nineties ( it is an open secret that it is due to the clashes between two factions in the then ruling Congress party), the clashes between hindus and muslims in bangalore because of the urdu news, etc.

Now it is fashinable to look upto west for the so called secular idealogies, but we all know the genocides perpetrated against Jews in west all throughout Middle ages till the world war 2. Now that they are rich, now that they can ensure all the minimum basic needs to their people , they can and do talk about all the crap about secularism. and even now when there is any threat for them , they turn their ire on minorities. ( Germany)

If there is any religion which preaches secularism, it is Hinduism. Actually secularism as defined now is not preached by Hinduism, Hinduism preaches much more than that, It does not preaches religious tolerance, it preaches religious acceptance. It is one of the truly magnificient theories developed by human beings. And I say it without pride. I dont know much about other religions to comment about them, but the breadth of Hinduism is unparalleled.

You may say that so what ? anyone can intrepret the religious texts in the way they want, but are you practising it?, I agree with you. I myself, am not a perfect Hindu, I still feel uncomfortable when a muslim eats beef besides me, i am still unable to accept them as they are.

But what i want to conclude is that we hindus are not bigotic, narrow minded. you compare India with any country similar to it with such diversity and such poverty , then you will know why Hinduism sustains India. you can even compare with the rich middle east asian countries..

I pesonally have lived with muslims and christians from the interior parts of

Andhra Pradesh to Hyderabad to now in calcutta.and believe me sir, no discrimination , absolutely no discrimination..

believe me the very top can be a limit for a religious minority in india, i have seen it all through out my life. if they are capable nothing gonna stop them. even now, in our institute , the most sought after position , placement secretary is a christian... sometimes i wonder where all this discrimination against christians is coming from...

```` I am not justifying ours but, please don`t look at things through articles and media hypes, the real thing is not as bad.``````

this statement sums it all, sir. you cannot have said it better. it is the same on this side of the border also.

cheers, lookin forward for a fruitful, dispassionate discussion,

jntuece99

Dear Shandana,

I have not yet ever written a response to your articles on chowk. The truth is that I was happy to be an unknown fan of your brilliant writing. I have read most of your pieces here. I have been stalking you as it were?on this site at least.

The latest article has the misfortune of catching me at the crest of a renewed enthusiasm after a longish break. I notice that one of your most relevant and moving articles, in terms of nationalistic responses, is relatively speaking one of your worst in terms of writing. I am here pitting you only against your own standards. I agree with Layman when he says what he does about your article?but only about the standard of writing. I have no qualms?nor do I agree with him on the pathological need for analysis. Stylistically?I feel that the article was not a patch on your other good pieces.

However, when it still manages to convert a Jay into a fan and an admirer, it speaks truly of having achieved something. I believe that it was an article whose (I am personalising the piece here?temporal?) author`s sensitivity trickled down to the reader. That it humbled him is even a greater compliment to him?and you.

But Jay`s seems to me a politically aware?and stoutly unhypocritical ?sensibility touched primarily by the content. The article does not for the first time invalidate his stand?but also offers a subliminal espousal of his stand?but from the other side of the border.

Jay?is correct on the Brahman part. But it is a tiny nit?that does not interfere with either your piece?or alloy his pure admiration.

Rdesikan`s is also a correction that is valuable. ``Since I`m from what you call ``Tamil South India`` I couldn`t understand those hindi/urdu/punjabi? phrases. `` But perhaps?more appropriate to an Indian writer. Which is not to mean that Pakistani/ non-Indian writers should not be aware of the difference. Only, in their case, it is more forgivable.

Temporal?

This business of goof ups?the confession?I am guilty of this on this same issue of Chowk?as you rightly pointed out?but you did it too on Shandana`s thread. So I presume?I have won back my sustainance on your mailing list.

Your Hindusim, as available in the article, is often encyclopedic but that is something to be admired. That it has floored jay is a great achievement.

``Jay chetta?shemikkanam.

However, Layman`s crtiticism of the style and presentation is something I too echo.

The vignettes you present are very good..and well presented too.

Hope this ramble makes sense.

Any inprintable response is welcome at namby@indiainfo.com

Re Sarwari # 6

How do you know that India doesn`t treat its minorities well? Where did you get that info or who taught it to you? There are as many, if not more muslims in India than in your country, and it is mighty hard to keep them down, unless of course, you have military rule. India may not have the best record in minority treatment, but our record is nothing to be ashamed of. Yes the current government is not exactly pro-muslim, but then we live something you may not know about...a pluralistic democracy. And being in a coalition government they cannot afford to be anti-muslim. These nuts could be voted out just as easily. They did not get to power through the barrel of a gun. Another point to note: the babri masjid was knocked down during Congress [?] rule and the current party could have easily built a mandir cause they rule the land, right? But then, we also have something else you may not be aware of...the rule of law. There are enough restrictions in the books to prevent these nuts from doing what they desire, despite the fact they may happen to be in power.

India is a developing country which means its majority is still behind. There are poor hindus as there are poor muslims. When the vast majority suffers economically, it is not a result of wilful government intervention that this particular community suffers.

Another thing: At the time of partition, yes there was violence. But the muslims who chose to stay behind did not have to lose property or convert their religion to stay. Can you say that of Pakistan? Why then did your non-muslim population drop from about a third to next to nothing?

Muslims in India have done far, far better than hindus, or for that matter, muslims in pakistan. I can shoot off the names...2 Presidents, numerous ministers and diplomats, movie stars and singers, writers and painters, sculptors and soldiers, tycoons and teachers, and on and on [geez, I was starting to alliterate here]. The government actually pays for the Haj pilgrimage for almost a 100,000 Indian muslims---even to this day. Yup, those so-called saffron thugs in power are footing the bill. You know what, Shias are definitely safer in India than in your country. If Indian muslims are so put down and treated like dirt, they ought to be migrating to the land of the pure, right?

Of late there have been troubling reports of violence against the minorities in India which I deplore. But put that in perspective. You also have nuts scrawling swastikas on synagogues in the US and race baiting as well. Sarwari, plurality is the name of the game in India. There are just so many groups and sects in Hinduism that we learn to tolerate one another. We just don`t go around torching the other`s temples or shooting people while at prayer. It is a lot easier to be a minority in India than it is in Pakistan. Or do I have to upper case it like your bud to get the point across.

And finally...wow, Hindu servants must be doing great because...``They have well organized communities, they have a dish and TV at home...`` I feel so deflated. Our muslim driver back home only has cable and lives in his own house among infidels and poor chap, he does not watch Pakistani movies or serials.

Thank you for spreading knowledge about life in Pakistan. I guess some Muslims and Hindus have a rough time in India, I guess some Hindus and Muslims have a rough time in Pakistan, that is nature. But when the State & the Executive & the Judiciary & the Armed Forces & maybe even the media tries to differentiate on grounds of religion in one country while trying hard to go the other way in another, and when both these countries are neighbours with common heritages, then what happens?

Then, again, I think nature takes over and like water finding its own level, you will find, probably, that intelligence moves towards what intelligent people will perceive as being correct.

So, Shandana, what is correct? Is it correct that in the name of religion, human beings, migratory species if we ever were one, move to better and more amenable climes?

And what is religion but an ongoing attempt to usurp what the intelligent leave behind while looking for improvements?

Ahmediyas, Boris, Brelvis, Hindus, Sindhis, Parsees, Christians, Jews . . .

Shandana
I read this article earlier in the TFT and I liked the snippets about actual people, in this case Pakistani Hindus.

I have noticed that at least in the web versions of Pakistani newspapers and even their special sections articles are mostly opinions, with any quotes/anecdotes from ` real people` almost entirely absent. This seems the case even in news stories. In many cases even `concerned officials` are not interviewed, its mostly an official press statement which is quoted. Readers` letters are the one place one gets to hear the words and thoughts of `real people`. I`m not sure how it is on Pakistani TV?

So I`m hoping we will see more of this style, covering a broad spectrum of Pakistani life and society and not just the minorities.

About the intent of the article, well, with an overwhelmingly Hindu neighbour and a long common history, its makes me feel even sadder to see it published as something unique. Pakistan ought to have had institutes of research and academics(if they donot already) related to ancient languages and literature and the rest of the subcontinent`s religious/cultural heritages, including Hinduism and Buddhism. Its a shared heritage, acceptable or not, to be `milked` for all it can offer. (no wish to start a controversy here, its just my own opinion).

Sadhana

pullu #16:

[And if your post #13 is from the heart then it is too good.]

If there’s any lingering doubts -- straight from the heart!

Moderation is the key word. I have friends from every spectrum, religious, not-so-religious, atheists and agnostics. Their one common thread is moderation. I love and respect them all. (here I go --- if only we spread a little more moderation around there is bound to be a little less hell on earth.)

Love goes well in equal measure with Hate. As it must. And I’ll confess I hate Excess --- any and every kind of excess. Noticed my vituperative retorts to ‘that’ personification of Hatred here?

So is that normal?

regards,

temporal

Shandana:

Interesting and informative article. I hope I`m not alone in the embarrassment and guilt I felt after having read this. Not because I myself treat people from different backgrounds differently (their ethnicity, religion, etc are the last things on my mind), but because belonging to a ``majority`` I somehow feel responsible for this. What makes me miserable is the way we use religion and ethnicity as the deciding factor when it comes to judging people. And this is not the case in Pakistan alone - it`s almost everywhere I`ve been.

One thing though about your writing style though - the article seemed disjointed. You kept on jumping from one point to another without any coherence. One example:

``Once a year there is an unusual number of bangs in the city. People look at each other and nod, ``It must be divali.`` There is a also trend amongst fiery big-mouthed 90s women to include a rang amongst their wedding ceremonies. Everyone runs around throwing colour on each other and squealing. In the leading papers` yearly ``round-up of architecture Karachi should be proud of`` the Hindu Gymkhana and Swami Narayan Mandir are pointed out, freshly photographed. The twisted implementation of the blasphemy law and the rabidity of zealots ensure that the Hindu community maintains a low profile. The many festivals in their religious calendar are celebrated softly.``

-Lubna

Given the rabid factionalism displayed by some of our inelligensia in an enligtened forum, - I think is evidence enough that 2 nation theory cannot be all trash. The fact remains, that a large majority of Pakistanis are anti-Hindu, atleast on a national scale, this does not preclude a small ( and enligtened) but vocal intelligensia from building bridges with our neighbours to the east.

On the other hand, Regardless of what the constitution of India proclaims, the majority of Indians, have a decidedly anti-Muslim bias.
Aside from ceremonial positions, or erstwhile exceptional individuals, - Muslims face discrimination in India as a fact of life.

On a personal note, one of my better friends happens to be a Sindhi Hindu, and though I harbor only good wishes for him and he for me, we are both skeptical of the magnanimous nature of Pakistani And Indian government policies. In my case, it is both the governments.

But this is hardlly suprising, in a country like the US where race prejudice is fairly strong, despite govt policies & media pronoucements, - the bias against minorities and women despite tremendous generational strides still exists.

The fact of the matter is ( I am not going to discuss India here, the same principle applies in India, but with a fascade of civility) that any state that believes to have an exclusive monoply on the truth will inherently be a tryannical one.

The plight of minorities in Pakistan is dispicable, particularly the poor ones, they have to justify their loyalty to the state and to the ignorant morons at large time and time again.

Even affluent and enligtened minorities such as the Parsis, who have given more to the people of Pakistan than the self-proclaimed Islamic republic, have seen the wrong end of the beaurocratic or feudal stick.

Regardless, of what we think of the British, you cannot deny them civility at the policy making level, that is more than can be said for the Indians and Pakistanis and their post-independence suppressions of regional insurgencies.

Chalo bhai, hum gunahgaar hi sahi.
Have stayed with Hindus, eaten with them (great
cooks), love to converse with them, admire their
recent success in the United States, glad that
many love their mother country (India or Pakistan), still like to give them a rough time
while defending Pakistan on Kashmir, BUT TO THIS DAY IN THE SEA OF WHITE FACES I CONTINUE TO SEEK DESIS FOR LIGHT CONVERSATION AND BS NO MATTER WHAT THEIR RELIGION.
The entire mindset needs to change in Pakistan
AND India on a variety of topics especially
religion or else ...

Gunahgaar

Ras H. Siddiqui

sadna #21

PTV is a government owned organization and more insipid than newspapers and magazines. In other words, don`t even think about it man! :)
As for the rest of your post re research institutes etc. hmm perhaps one day :) I tell you what though, INDIANS who migrated to Pakistan after partition have been instrumental in creating this environment which, to put it politely, is not conducive to such endeavors. (And I do wish to start a controversy here :))

fairdinkum #26
Tsk,tsk aisa nahin bolte. But I understand what you are saying. And news flash: `Pakistanis` were Indians, too when those `Indians` landed. Now I retreat into my foxhole :-).
Sadhana

sadna #27

That`s where ``baghal main churi aur mooN peh ram ram`` is appropriate to use :)

In reply to Syed Ahmed : the vast famines that stalked the subcontinent, in which millions starved, vanished with the British. I would choose Indian and Pakistani fractiousness over British civility any day.

The best job of brainwashing that was ever done was the impression we subcontinentals have that somehow the British were civilized.

-arun gupta

Dear Temporal:

Your post on Durga puja is very authentic indeed, and I am touched as a Bengali. You have captured the Bengali emotion correctly. It is generally at the end of the festivities, people feel quite empty, as it is only natural that one feels that way when one`s beloved daughter goes back to her Sasural. Temporal, I really thank you from bottom of my heart for trying peace in the sub-continent. We do not have any hope unless we put people before any religion. Hope many more people see this way.

I wish you all happy Durga Puja. If you check on Calcutta online, you will see the work of local sculptors` beautiful works, although this year festivity is scaled down because of people`s suffering in devastating flood in some of the districts of WB. Also Jyoti Basu is becoming a nuisance and menace to WB.

Regards

cheraym

Satyavadi #

You are the real and true face of Hinduism.

We can criticize the treatment of minorities in our country (although this is small issue compared to overall) and that is our right as an INDEPENDENT people.(Independence from India):)

Anyway if you like K for Kafir, that is your choice, otherwise K is for ``Kutta`` or dog.

Sadism has no limit.

Since you are no God or Avtar, beware of hurling stones while in glass house.

Anyway I am impressed by your Liberalism all over India. Particularly in most recent history in Babri mosque fiasco, in Bombay riots, in Kashmir, in burning of churches, killing of priests and Muslims etc.

And we thank God that we have Shadhana Minhas in our country. Of your variety we have enough. But they are illiterate enough to be away from this board.

Pragmatix #4

I think we should send our few jehadist to you, in exchange for few sane Indians.

We cannot accomodate millions and millions of saffron brigade. Few thousands we can in exchange for few thousands Jehadist. (We are sending them in Hundreds anyhow):)

Aaker Patel#3

I think you are right according to Indian standard that Friday Times is exceptional publication. (After seeing independent): Zee TV)

It is not so exceptional from a Pakistani standard. Probably most free press in World and in South Asia without any doubt.

Try to change India.

And if you are satisfied with your condition then don`t come and preach us secularism and democracy. We have it better than you, if you call what India has as secularism and democracy.

http://saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/sati1.htm

http://www.mcc.org/pr/1999/10-15/BDC2.html

http://detnews.com/1999/religion/9909/17/09170251.htm

The BJP`s Rise to Power and the Indian Muslims

by Taimoor Ashraf 1

``The underlying principle of BJP ideology is that the salvation of India lies in

the self-conscious unity of Hindus as a religious and cultural group. The

problem, however, is that Hinduism is an extremely diverse and complex

religion. On the one hand, a significant component of the Hindu idiom is a

well established and rooted caste system, which has tended to work as a

divisive agent. On the other hand, the Hindu idiom itself assumes

particular/peculiar local and regional characteristics, which fragments Hindu

cultural unity and undermines the notion of a uniform religious community.

The question, therefore, that Hindu revivalist leaders have faced has been

the following: how to unite the Hindus given the peculiar character of

Hinduism? The approach that they have followed has been the tried and true

method of presenting a divided community with a common enemy. In India`s

history, the threat of Islam and the Muslims has been the instrument used

by the BJP.

Yet, the BJP and its ideological and political allies have repeatedly said that

they are not against Muslims, because they believe that Muslims are only

Muslims by birth and not by blood. By blood they are still Hindus. They also

believe that the true culture of Muslims is the Hindu culture. Hindu revivalists

argue that it is unfortunate that the Indian Muslims do not recognize and

accept this ``truth.`` They also say that they respect Muslims not because

they are Muslims and believe in Islam, but rather because they are not

``Muslims`` (in the intrinsic/inherent sense of the term).5 Hindu revivalists try

to arouse a sense of fear and deprivation among the Hindus. But in

post-colonial India, Muslims have always been subordinate to the Hindus;

consequently, their strategy has not been very successful. Therefore, the

revivalists have attacked the central and state governments for favoring

Muslims and have tried to make the notion of ``appeasement of Muslims``

central to the strategy of Hindu unification, both psychologically and

emotionally, and to somehow try to transform it into cultural and political

Hindu unity.``



1.Is there any doubt about India`s past moves with the minorities? if there is read Passive Voices by a Hindu Author( sorry don`t have the book with me can`t remember the name)

2. Did I say Pakistan is doing a good job at protecting its minorities? All I said its bot good but its not dooms day either. My personal experience( and unbiased as I have consciously tried to make it) is that most minorities in Pakistan are ok.( excluding the TV, DISH , gee I was only trying to give you an economicly based idea of their well being)

3. Islam is not a religion, Its deen, a code of life. Its not Madhab and so I think that there may be nothing wrong with having an Islamic state, because had it been Islamic in the true sense, it would be truly secular and democratic.

4. I know some Indain family friends who project India to be a state where their being muslim meant working ten times harder to climb most of the social, economical and political ladders, if one is not already lucky enough to be in that group. No, I am not making that my deciding factor, its just one of the many contributors.

5. Chauvinistic? me? ok I`m sorry I may have gotten carried away, but you have to accept the fact that India is no saint. I wish I had more time to send you detailed papers of its two faced mentality. And I repeat, Pakistan isn`t that bad... In fact people are so tremendously recognizing the need to be more tolerant, and you, Mr. Universal representative of being`` citizen of the world`` are leading people to think otherwise. I don`t think you were quoting form Dawn, maybe a kid called you that when you went to Pakistan. I apologies on behalf of my country-child. Bachaa hey, let it go... :)

One last request, Leave TNT for us to be implemented, and give us time. You watch the movies on it.

latter

Regards.

Well said Ras. We should learn to look beyond religion.

jntuece99:

thanks for your input, BTW, I`m Aisha.

Wassalam

Apparently, the main theme of the article seems to be the persecution of the minorities in a theocratic state which is well presented ... except the writer`s presumptuous effort to flaunt his/her seemingly new-found love in hinduism which in my view doesnt fit into the main core...

Satywadi,

Sir, Please for the record also state how many times you have been to Pakistan?

Also you have made a historically inaccurate claim in your post. Had the original Pakistan plan been accepted the Number would have come out to be 32%.

Estimated Minorities in Pakistan should have been close to 8 to 10% had the people who left for India chosen to stay.

Please refrain from making baseless accusations. Ah but I forget, you are only fulfilling your part as an Indian. Your personal attack on Aisha was most displeasing but then what isnt about your kind.

Sarwari,

You are right, the truth isnt that bad. One of my teachers in 6th grade was this beautiful distinguished lady in a sari who was Hindu. I remember her being very patriotic. All her work had the Pakistani flag in it. Hindus have made numerous contributions to Pakistan.

However it is necessary to realize the dream that Jinnah had....

``In course of time the Hindu Community and the Muslim community will vanish not in a religious sense because that is the personal faith of an individual but in a political sense.``

I believe that humanity requires of Pakistan to reaffirm the promise its founder made to the multitudes of Pakistan when he told them ...

``You are free, you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or anyother place of worship in this great state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed-that has nothing to do with the business of the state.``

Aisha this is our ideal ...

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

It was quite interesting to read about hindus in Pakistan. The author writes about hindus--mostly in Sindh.

Growing up in Bombay, I have many Sindhi friends. They are all hindus whose parents migrated from Pakistan at the time of the partition. Even though none of them have ever been to Pakistan, they still identify themselves as ``Shikarpuris`` or ``Hyderabadis`` etc etc

I have agreat admiration for these Sindhis. Their parents came from Pakistan as refuges with nothing but the shirt on their backs. Many settled abroad --like Hong Kong, Singapore, Lagos etc. Its absolutely amazing what these Sindhi hindus have accomplished in the last 50 years.

Today ,Sindhis are one of the most prosperous communities in India. I dont mean to sound perjorative, but they will put Jews to shame. It seems business acumen is in their blood.

Despite India`s socialism, Sindhis have become multi-millionaires. They neatly circumvented India`s socialism by developing their own banking system. They lent money to each other to start businesses. Money transactions are made verbally, (nothing is written on paper)--just on faith.

Some of the biggest business tycoons in Bombay are Sindhis. A large portion of the film industry money is controlled by Sindhis. The Sindhis abroad have hit it even bigger. Hindujas & Chainrais are Sindhis. If you go to the Carribean Islands, most of the shops are owned by Sindhis.

In medical college, my dorm mates were mostly Sindhis. Some of Bombay`s most prominent physicians are Sindhis. In fact, thanks to Sindhi philanthropists, Bombay`s premier hospitals--Jaslok & National are funded by Sindhis. Both these hospitals come close to matching any seen in the US.

My medical college collegues migrated to the US along with me in the early 80s. All of them are successful physicians in the US. However, what sets them apart is their business acumen. Right from the time they started their residencies, they would put a part of their meager income in the stock market. In those days I used to laugh at them when they were discussing ``wierd`` names like Microsoft & Intel. Well, today ,they are the ones who are laughing at me. I`m kicking myself for not listening to them. Most of them are in their 40s & have made enough money to retire many times over. They practise medicine because they love it & dont give a damn about things like ``managed care`` or HMO`s.

Other communities in India like Marwaris & Gujeratis also are tremendously wealthy because of a brilliant in-built business acumen. But what sets these Sindhis apart is that they started from zero. One can only wonder what these Sindhis could have done for Pakistan, had they remained there. Its rather dissappointing to know that most Pakistani Sindhi hindus are confined to remote rural hamlets, with a few notable exceptions, who try to remain as inconspicuous as possible. In contrast, Sidhis in India are usually identified as urbane, sophisticated & incredibly enterprising & sometimes quite flamboyant.

Indian Sindhis in politics are usually virulently anti-Pakistan, because of bitter memories. Ram Jethmalani & LK Advani are prime examples.

I understand that I`m making broad sweeping generalisations. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I just wanted to point out how a community that started out with nothing, has now become one of the most prosperous in India. The next generation of Sindhis are now entering world capitalism in a big way (their parents already had a foothold 50 yrs ago). I have no doubt that in the next 50 years they will have even more success---more power to them!

fairdinkum #28
``That`s where ``baghal main churi aur mooN peh ram ram`` is appropriate to use :)``
I don`t quite get it, do you care clarify?

btw,do you realise by your definition of `Indians` and hence I presume `Pakistanis`, Pervez Musharraf is an Indian and LK Advani is a Pakistani. Care to swap :-) ?

Sadhana

re shankar #37:

Shankar:

I`ve also been impressed by the business acumen of the Sindhis in the US. Like the Gujrati Patels they are extremely closely-knit and yet very open to outsiders. Maybe herein lies their strength. And as a casual observation I as a Pakistani find them more fun to be with compared to Indians from some other parts of India with the possible exception of Sikhs. They are well-educated and cosmopoliton but not more so than Indians of other ethnicities. But there is a perceptible difference in outlook and demeanour. I`ve also noticed that these folks are generally better looking than the average Indian and the women they marry are from Maharashtra(and usually very pretty!!) and non-Sindhi. Is it just my experience or do Sindhis tend to marry outside the clan? Wouldn`t that lead to weakening the community solidarity or is it the other way round? Care to comment.

Shandhana:

Nice article. Although some of the cohesiveness and flow of your earleir pieces was missing. An off day perhaps or the primoridal soup still cooking ? :)

later

-sac

sadna #39
“I don`t quite get it, do you care clarify? “

Uff! Sadhna aap koo hindi mahravroon ki class lani paray gi :) Do you remember my explanation of “baghal main churi aur mooN peh ram ram” ? ok, if you really didn’t get it let me know.

“btw,do you realise by your definition of `Indians` and hence I presume `Pakistanis`, Pervez Musharraf is an Indian and LK Advani is a Pakistani. Care to swap :-) ?”

True… Not only Musharraf, you can have all the past and present generals of Pak army… Gen. Zia was also Indian by birth. We can arrange for his remains (unfortunately, we only have his teeth) to be transferred to jamah mosque delhi or amritsar or anywhere else … your choice.. and since I am in a generous mood today, you can also keep Advani. :) Just send us sumita patel. she’d be living as somebody else right? So find her and we can have our swap :-)

fairdinkum #42
What I didnot get is the muhaavra`s relevance here. Re Generals etc, you are too generous :-). And should we know of Ms Patel? If not, do you know finding a `hidden Hindu` in India is much much more difficult than in Pakistan :-)?

Sadhana

Regarding the article: Depressing.. eye opening, to some extent.. important. Personal anecdotes do tend to illustrate such situations with a more poignant immediacy than the colder facts and figures that people like to bring up. It brings up feelings reminiscent of a Herald (Newsline?) some time back that traced minority religious sites in Pakistan, and how shabbily they have been handled. I hope that the gov takes these issues to mind. The blasphemy laws give us a few high-profile examples of abuse of a bad law.. but the gradual, insidious destruction is more dangerous.. and more final. If Pakistan eliminates its minorities it won`t be in an orgy of bloodletting, but a deterioration of their righst as human beings and citizens of the `Islamic` republic. And sadly, there will be those who will say we`d be richer for getting rid of our `impurities`!

As an aside.. it`s not just the Hindus who are leaving Pakistan, you know.

And Temporal, what HAVE you done to Jay? It`s obvious that wasn`t the real Jay who posted on this board!

YLH #36:

``Satywadi,

Sir, Please for the record also state how many times you have been to Pakistan?``

Will you ever get my nick right, Sir? :)

Now to the more important issue.

I have never been to Pakistan. But do you need to personally go to a country to know what its consitution states? Do you need to visit a country and count the minorities in a country to know their percentage ?

Have you been to India? I think, no. But does that preclude you from thrashing Indian secularism, etc etc? Can I also ask you to shut up about India, with the argument that you do not know anything about India, since you have never been there or if you have, you obviously didnt do a survey about the things you talk about?

Do you have to go to Somalia to know that people are starving there?

So please, dont present this preposterous argument

whenever anyone makes any comment about Pakistan that you do not like.

``Also you have made a historically inaccurate claim in your post. Had the original Pakistan plan been accepted the Number would have come out to be 32%.

Estimated Minorities in Pakistan should have been close to 8 to 10% had the people who left for India chosen to stay.``

Here is something from Hamza Alavi`s (presumably a Pakistani) thesis ``Pakistan and Islam: Ethnicity and Ideology``.

URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sangat/pakisltt.htm

// *

Census, 1931

TOTAL POPULATION (IN MILLIONS)

U.P Punjab Bengal Sindh

Total: 48.4 28.5 51.0 3.9

Muslims 7.2 14.9 27.8 2.8

Muslims % (14.8%) (52.4%) (54.5%) (72.8%)

*//

So by 1931 Census, minorities were roughly 48% and 28% of the populations of Punjab and Sindh respectively. Punjab accounts for 55% of Pakistani population. Sindh for 20%. Now if we take into account the fact that the percentage of Non-Muslims was higher in what is Indian Punjab now (BUT its population is one third of Pakistani Punjab), we can still by rough mathematical approximations estimate the minority population percentage of areas comprising Pakistan to be atleast 30% at Partition.

So there goes your 8 to 10% number down the drain. Dont make claims without substantiating them.

``Please refrain from making baseless accusations. Ah but I forget, you are only fulfilling your part as an Indian. Your personal attack on Aisha was most displeasing but then what isnt about your kind.``

Now this part of your post was unwarranted.

I didnot attack Sarwari personally.

Pleas refrain from talking about``my kind`` and other such things. Only because we choose not to indulge in name calling doesnt mean we cannot. We do not want you to start crying again and whining about the absence of fairness on Chowk and making pleas to others to stand up for your follies.

Satyavadi

Krashid #31:

``You are the real and true face of Hinduism.``

So I am ? Well, I dont know about this, but you should probably know now that I am not a Hindu. Now, go bury your face in sand.

``We can criticize the treatment of minorities in our country (although this is small issue compared to overall) and that is our right as an INDEPENDENT people.(Independence from India):)``

No one questioned this right of yours. My only crib is that you guys dont seem to exercise it too often. But then you guys are independent of us, so maybe I shouldnot comment.

``Anyway if you like K for Kafir, that is your choice, otherwise K is for ``Kutta`` or dog.``

Yeah, whatever. But its not a question of my liking, its whats written in the Urdu texts. And if a columnist of Dawn is to be believed its K for Kafir. If you guys want to put up a real pciture of a Kafir besides K in the Urdu text, instead of a caricature Kafir with a Choti on his head, I can send mine in the mail. I dont know though if I qualify for Pakistani text Kafir, since I am non-Hindu. Do let me know.

``Sadism has no limit.``

So finally, self realization has dawned. Or am I hoping too much?

``Since you are no God or Avtar, beware of hurling stones while in glass house.``

Well, the glass of my house is thicker and sturdier than the one of your house. So I dont mind hurling stones as long as the opponent is you.

``Anyway I am impressed by your Liberalism all over India. Particularly in most recent history in Babri mosque fiasco, in Bombay riots, in Kashmir, in burning of churches, killing of priests and Muslims etc.``

Well an I wouldnot call that liberalism. But a Pakistani can, because everything is relative. So compared to whats ensrhined in your constitution, all that probably still qualifies as liberalism. Oh well..

``And we thank God that we have Shadhana Minhas in our country. Of your variety we have enough. But they are illiterate enough to be away from this board.``

So you mean the illiterates of Pakistan are more unbiased and balanced?Thanks, I always suspected that. With the supposed literates here calling Indians and/or Hindus badbudar janwars, I think the illiterates of Pakistan are its only rational segment and our only hope.

Thank you.

Satyavadi

sarwari #34 (Its a long post):

``1.Is there any doubt about India`s past moves with the minorities? if there is read Passive Voices by a Hindu Author( sorry don`t have the book with me can`t remember the name)``

Dont you think you should not base your opinion on one book by some author even if he is a Hindu?

India came into the picture because you chose to write `` we should ensure we don`t do with them what India did or still does with its minorities.`` Now what is the justification for that statement?

Is ``India`s treatment of its minorities`` something like Holocaust that everyone knows about and accepts?. Obviously not. So should you have not provided in what context and based on what you made that statement? Was it relevant at all, when you were merely talking about Pakistani minorities? Should you be comparing everything Pakistani to everything Indian? Is surpassing Indian in anything the be all of Pakistan?

``Did I say Pakistan is doing a good job at protecting its minorities? All I said its bot good but its not dooms day either. My personal experience( and unbiased as I have consciously tried to make it) is that most minorities in Pakistan are ok.( excluding the TV, DISH , gee I was only trying to give you an economicly based idea of their well being)``

You didnt say that. But you did say ``we should ensure we don`t do with them what India did or still does with its minorities``. Now if you could make an unsupported statement without any justification or provocation, you should not object to me merely stating some facts about Pakistan and showing you the mirror and that too in retaliation. Fair enough? What do you say?

BTW, if the ``maasi (maid servant?)`` of your relative is doing well because she had satellite dish etc and indicative of the economic status of the minorities on the whole, then Muslims of India are all very very prosperous, because three of my Muslims classmates came to the US for studies withough aid and thus spent like 15 lakh rupees each for their Master`s degrees. Hope you get my point.

``Islam is not a religion, Its deen, a code of life. Its not Madhab and so I think that there may be nothing wrong with having an Islamic state, because had it been Islamic in the true sense, it would be truly secular and democratic.``

An Islamic secular state seems truly oxymoronic. I think even your bud YLH will agree with that.

BTW, Islam maybe a code of life of Muslims, but is it fair to impose the code of life of Muslims

on people of other faiths? Should a State decide whose religion is what? Why does a State need to stamp religion on Passports, unless that measure is to be used for discrimination(positive or negative) or differentiation among its citizens at one point or other?

``I know some Indain family friends who project India to be a state where their being muslim meant working ten times harder to climb most of the social, economical and political ladders, if one is not already lucky enough to be in that group. No, I am not making that my deciding factor, its just one of the many contributors.``

True, there is discrimination against Muslims in India, but it is NOT state or constitution sanctioned. People everywhere have their own biases, own preferences, the State can only try to circumvent them not abolish them. A smalltime Hindu shopkeeper will prefer a Hindu employee to a Muslim; much like his Muslim counterpart will prefer a Muslim. At higher echelons caste, religion etc get less and less relevant (for e.g. for professional colleges only your Marks in particular exams matter and the exams are centrally conducted with the identity of the examinee anonymous to the examiner). Caste, region and religion based affinities do exist everywhere and more so in South Asia. Muslims being a minority and with a significant portion of the elite having moved to Pakistan, do face more problems than say Hindus in India. But to allege there is systematic discrimination, is inaccurate, incorrect.

We can talk about this more, if you so wish.

``Chauvinistic? me? ok I`m sorry I may have gotten carried away, but you have to accept the fact that India is no saint. I wish I had more time to send you detailed papers of its two faced mentality.``

You apologize and then you talk about ``India`s twofaced mentality``. Thats exactly where the problem is. OK let me say this at the top of my voice. INDIA IS NO SAINT. INDIA IS NO SAINT.

OK? Now, there is no denying the fact that India is no saint. But India does have constitutional provisions that ensure equlity to all citizens (why just Muslims or Hindus?), has a judiciary that is slack, tardy but still mostly uncorrupted, has parties that may espouse any ideology but still pledge commitment to the constitution and has a vigilant Press. Now all this didnt prevent destruction of the derelict Mosque, but 8 years after that the Mandir is still no where in sight. All this didnt prevent Graham Staines murder ( there is more to that issue than plain Hindu fundamentalist vs Christian missionaries, btw), but does ensure that MF Hussain can get away with nude paintings of a Hindu Goddes (imagine something like this about Islam by a Hindu artist in Pakistan, and still feted as the best painter in India and continue to be honored etc. So again with everything, a George Fernandez can be the Defence Minister of Indian and an Abdul Kalam can head India`s nuclear program, while an Azim Premji can adorn the Richest Indian title.

``And I repeat, Pakistan isn`t that bad... In fact people are so tremendously recognizing the need to be more tolerant``

Which people are you talking about? I guess yourself and your friends etc who all (again I am guessing) belong to the upper middle, upper class, English speaking educated elite of Pakistan (Among the elite also there are Krashids calling Hindus `badbudar janwars`). Basically 10% of Pakistan. How about those `teeming millions` (sorry for the cliche) living in villages educating their sons in Madrassahs that teach only the extremist version of Islam with no contemporary subjects? Had Pakistan been getting more tolerant would there have been Shia-Sunni clashes, killing in mosques, all of which didnt use to happen a decade back?

``, and you, Mr. Universal representative of being `` citizen of the world`` are leading people to think otherwise. I don`t think you were quoting form Dawn, maybe a kid called you that when you went to Pakistan. I apologies on behalf of my country-child. Bachaa hey, let it go... :)``

Well I am flattered that you think I can lead people to believe something which is not true. I have problems convincing people of universal truths, and here is a Ma`am with some much faith in me. I am overwhelmed :)

But, believe me I have no intention to mislead anyon. Only if you guys stopped making baseless or grossly exaggerated accusations against India. And ofcourse stopped generously sending the `mujahideen` :)

BTW, I have never been to Pakistan, so apology not accepted. Believe me, that incident was indeed related in some column in Dawn a few months ago. I donot have the article, so dont ask me to reproduce it. I leave it to you, to believe it or leave it.

``One last request, Leave TNT for us to be implemented, and give us time. You watch the movies on it.``

I thought you guys had discarded it, once the purpose was served. Or atleast thats what Jinnah wanted according to YLH. You can go ahead and implement the TNT or do whatever, but please no ``hindu pefidy`` justifications for that if you care for your own 1.5% Hindu population.

Waiting for your response.

Satyavadi

PS: I note no one has refuted most of my points, only they have attacked my intentions.

Satyavadi (Just for you)

First of all, my friend Prem Bodagala went to Pakistan and found it different from what he had expected through malicious propaganda on chowk by the Indians..... and the media. So you might actually consider going to Pakistan before making these generalizations.

Had you read Hamza Alavi`s book properly you would also discern that much like myself, he is also talking about the original Pakistan plan which would have all of Punjab and Bengal. These provinces were partitioned in 1947.

Had you stopped and read my posts on the other thread completely instead of violently attacking me and fighting for mother India ... you would understand what I am trying to say better.

WHy do I even bother with your kind. I guess it is because of Prem and his family that I have any respect for Indians ... otherwise there wouldnt be any.

Satyavadi

And name calling wasnt started by me but by your kind ... which I seriously dont regard HUMAN anymore! (Note the word : anymore) WIth the exception of Prem and Prem`s family ofcourse.

The day an Indian can make me cry is going to be the last day of my life.... Like I say sir, and is obvious by Pakistanis` general behavior on and of the net ... I for Indian I for Insignificant ...

``What kind of self righteous bullshit is that. Wake up and smell the coffee you Ms.Pakistani chauvinist``. Satywadi 15!

Are they or are they not your words ????? Does it or Does it not constitute a personal attack?

I personally have a lot of better things to do then argue with Indians ... like Exams ...

Please Satyavadi or Sameer or Suneel whatever your name is ... grow up and end your biases. I know you people can start emailing each other asking each other to gang up on me... the term WE is very suspicious .. but you know what.. I wonder what obsession drives Indians to come to a Pakistani site and do that.

Krashid :Correction! Satyavadi is the real face of India not Hinduism.

Now sorry for that digression ... continue with the real discussion. The minorities in Pakistan and the solution to their problems ... I am willing to discuss this with Pakistanis only ofcourse...

Yasser Hamdani

And what are you talking about

WHere in Pakistan does it have K for Kafir in Urdu text???????? Like I said ... the real situation is quite different.

Please leave us alone!

Reply Satyavadi #45 #46

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am bowled over by your wit and ability to bring some much needed sense to the discussion. u r too good... tell me, why do i have a feeling that i know you? ha ha ha.... even if u dont know me , i am very much interested in knowing you. i bet you will be a pleasure to talk to. what do you say?

i am always available in this forum. though not for the next 10 days. i am happy to go back home after so many days here as well as sad to leave the bongs here to come to terms with their second mother ``Baghirathi `` who is threatening to spoil their homage to their first mother ``kali``

and now for Krashid

Krashid #31:

``You are the real and true face of Hinduism.``

Sir, reading that mail of yours it is obvious that your opinion of satyavadi is not too high. but how can you make such a blatant statement about commenting on what the true face of Hinduism is. how much do you know about Hinduism except for the stereotyped feedback u get from your usual sources...

and when someone from this side of the border comments about Jinnah or Islam, we are bigoted, parochial, arrogant people who does not care to take an objective view of anything....

do you have the guts to learn? to face the truth? can you make an attempt to learn more about Hinduism to make a comment about it. believe me, it will be a really rewarding experience... or are you another of those guys we are finding dime a dozen on the either sides of border these days. who thrives on ignorance, hatred and narrowmindedness?

cheers,

awaiting ur reply, satyavadi,

jntuece99

Satyavadi#46: ``You are the real and true face of Hinduism.``

So I am ? Well, I dont know about this, but you should probably know now that I am not a Hindu.

Wouldja please stop going around bursting people`s bubbles? And what are doing with that pseudonym of yours anyway, that has definite Hindu religious significance for some people, thus affecting their already bruised sensibilities? Now, you wouldnt have caused such a misunderstanding if you chose a more liberal title, perhaps an Arabic or a Persian one. After all we do come from a constitutionally and socially secular country, you know...! We should disinherit our cultural and linguistic inheritance to prove we secular!

*yawn *

YLH and Satyavadi, I suggest you two go read Harish Nambiar`s poems.

Satyavadi

Do you also forget that Pakistan was also partitioned later on .. Bangladesh I believe has 15 % minority Hindu population.

Yasser

Jinnah`s bid to retire the two nation theory,

Jinnah`s speeches in the last year of his life, as the Governor General of Pakistan make it clear that he had espoused Pakistan to be free of the prejudices that had plagued Pre Partition India.

Two Nation Theory which had been the basis of Pakistan in its essence needed to be retired the day Pakistan was made. Jinnah`s speech of 11th August 1947 makes it clear. Just like Mr Gandhi had advocated the dissolution of Congress after Independence.. Jinnah had looked into the possibility of the dissolution of the Two Nation theory.

Whereas he hadnt dissolved the Muslim League but had left the option open for the creation of an organization that would represent all Pakistanis in the future. This he had made clear when proposals for a Pakistan League had started pouring in.

It is a fact today ... there are not 2 but 3 nations in the Subcontinent.... Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi ...

On the question of Islam being a deen and not Madhab ... and how it espouses a secular statehood ...

Here is Ms Sarwari`s article which she posted at the Siqafat Rutgers site. I hope you approve.

``Assalamlaikum!

I Hope my intrusion here is not offensive to anyone, I don`t go to Rutgers,but I feel strongly about the way Pakistanis and Muslims in general evolve in their thoughts about Islam and I thought it would be a good thing to add my 2 cents here :)

Now, I know the discussions here really get heated up, but from astrangers point of view, it really isn`t that bad, at least you guys have it in you to give truth a chance and listen out to another view different from ``established`` ones...something not that simple to do at this part of the continent. Three cheers for everyone who honored themselves, by saying what they felt!

Some food for thought here... thought you`d appreciate this [hope so]

A comparative study of religion or madhhab, and din, should help us

understand the vital and fundamental characteristics of each and the

differences between the two:

1. Madhhab is merely some sort of subjective experience and is

concerned only with the so-called private relationship between God and

man.

Din is an objective reality and a system of collective life.

2. Every follower of a madhhab is satisfied that he has established a

communion with the Almighty, and the objective of each individual is his

own salvation.

The aim of din on the other hand is the welfare and progress of all

mankind, and the character and constitution of a society indicates whether

or not it is founded upon the Divine Law.

3. Madhhab does not afford us any objective. criterion by which we could

determine whether or not our actions are producing the desired results.

In a social order governed by din, the development of a collective and

harmonious life correctly indicates whether or not the people are pursuing

the right course.

4. Madhhab is hostile to scientific investigation and is an adversary of

reason, so that it could flourish unhampered with the aid of a blind faith.

Din helps in the development of human reason and knowledge, allows full

freedom to accept or reject on the basis of reason and arguments, and

encourages investigation and discovery of all the natural phenomena to

illumine the path of human life and its advancement in the light of the

Permanent Values.

5. Madhhab follows the susceptibilities and prejudices of men and

pampers them.

Din seeks to lead men to a path of life that is in harmony with the realities

of life.

6. In every age, therefore, madhhab sets up new idols and mumbo-jumbos

in order to keep the people`s attention away from the real problems of life.

But din is rational and radical: it breaks all idols, old and new, and is

never variable in its principles.

7. Madhhab induces a perpetual sense of fear in the minds of men and

seeks to frighten them into conformity;

While din treats fear as a form of polytheism and seeks to make men

courageous, daring and self-reliant.

8. Madhhab prompts men to bow before every seat of authority and

prestige, religious as well as temporal.

Din encourages man to walk about with his head erect, and attain

self-confidence.

9. Madhhab induces man to flee from struggle of life.

But din calls upon him to face the realities of life squarely, whatever the

hazards.

10. Madhhab treats the world of matter with contempt and calls upon man

to renounce it. It promises paradise only in the Hereafter as a reward for

the renunciation of the material world.

Din, on the other hand, enjoins the conquest of matter and leads man to

immeasurable heights of attainment. It exhorts him to seek well-being and

happiness in this world as well as felicity in the life Hereafter.

11. Madhhab encourages belief in fatalism, and this tends to dissuade man

from active life and self-development.

Din gives man power to challenge fate, and provides energy for a life of

activity and self-development.

12. Madhhab seeks to comfort the weak, the helpless and the oppressed

with the belief that the affairs of this world are governed by the Will of

God and that its acceptance and resignation helps to endear them to God.

This sort of teaching naturally tends to morbidity, and emboldens their

religious leaders who profess to interpret the Will of God, so that they

indulge in their misdeeds with perfect impunity and persuade the

adherents to a complete and quiet submission.

Din, on the other hand, raises the banner of revolt against all forms of

tyranny and exploitation. It calls upon the weak and the oppressed to

follow the Divine Laws and thereby seek to establish a social order in

which all tyrants and oppressors will be forced to accept the dictates of

right and justice. In this social order, there is no place for dictators,

capitalists or priests. They are all enemies of din.

13. Madhhab enjoins religious meditation in the name of worship and thus

induces self-deception.

Din exhorts men to assert themselves and struggle perpetually for the

establishment of the Divine Social Order, and its betterment when

attained. Worship in din really means obedience to the Laws of God.

14. Madhhab frowns and sneers at all things of art and beauty.

Din defies those who forbid the enjoyment of the good and beautiful

things of life which God has created for the enjoyment of man.

15. Madhhab denounces everything new and declares all innovation as

sin.

Din holds that the needs and demands of human life keep changing with

the change in the conditions of life; change and innovation are, therefore,

demanded by life itself. Only the Divine Laws are immutable.

It should now be easy for us to see the fundamental difference between

din and madhhab. Islam means saying ``Yes`` to life; while the response of

religion is ``No``!

Thus Islam is an open challenge to religion as such

-Aisha Sarwari

jeunteuce99#

I have learned and learning about the true face of Hindu and Hinduism on this board.

Before coming on this board I had only Indian friends and I did not know, what hatred they would be carrying in their heart.

To tell you the truth, I had much better impression of India.

But now I know how to deal with you people.

I think it is enough for you for now.

ylh#50

To whom you are talking.

A Hindu started a lie that witness of non Muslim is half in Pakistani court or in Islam. From the next post it was not only presented as fact but they started maligning us for that.

We have an example for Indians on this board.

``Gobar mein Paddum``.

If you know what it means.

Satyavadi #46

Bhai Tu Bohat Bara, Uuncha aur Pohnvha Hua hai.

Ham Tere Qabil Nahin.

Tu Yahan Kia karna Aya Hai.

Hum Gharibon Ko Chor aur apne Mulk me airconditioned footpath pe bethe Hue logon Ko India Ki Azmat Bata. Unhe bhi abhi tak ye baat Nahi Pata.

Hum ko to teri Azmat Acchi Tarah Maloom Hai.

YLh #

Satyavadi wrote 8-10%

Can you tell me what you tell me what was the percentage of non-Muslims in United Pakistan even after massive migration.

sac

{{But there is a perceptible difference in outlook and demeanour. I`ve also noticed that these folks are generally better looking than the average Indian and the women they marry are from Maharashtra(and usually very pretty!!) and non-Sindhi. Is it just my experience or do Sindhis tend to marry outside the clan?}}

This is my personal belief that North Indians--esp Sindhis ,Punjabis & Kashmiris are better looking than most other Indians. I also feel that Pakistanis are overwhelmingly better looking than Indians.

Now before I start a mudslinging match, I just want to say that it is my personal opinion as far as looks are concerned. I dont want to offen