Love and Hate Online

Zeenat:

Net is the Guttenberg of 21st century.

It has and will continue to change our lives. And lifestyles.

While you have accentuated more on the positive stories, there are far more horrible and disgusting stories floating around about crime, porn and break-ups. I know of more relationships that have broken up (partly) because of the Net than ones made.

love,

t

PS: Did you ever get that ‘Khattak’ autograph?

Zeejah: Good to see you back on chowk. Your article provides some interesting examples of romance flowering thru the net. Here are a couple of devaluated rupee worth of thoughts: What happened after these people met though? Did they live happily ever after, or did they then proceed to make new friends on the net? Either way, I dont think the net is going to contribute much for people in the romance department beyong creating opportunities for romance among socially challenged or reclusive people (like the nun).

Now how about using the net for a meeting of the minds, rather than of hearts? The more there are, the better it gets and the sky is the limit.

So my vote is for seeking romance in real life and keeping the net for trying to bring peace and harmony and progress in the world. Amen! :-)

yeah yeah yeah.....so what`s new?

I`m sorry, but this article wasn`t especially insightful or original. I`ve read articles similar to this numerous times in other magazines.

Well written though.

No offense to Zeejah, I`ve liked your previous work.

About online relationships, it`s like walking blindfolded on a beam of a skyscraper, you know how to walk, but you don`t know where you`re going, or where you stand and when you`ll fall.

scout

Of my class that graduated 3 years ago, 4 of them are married to people they met on the net. I remember that not too long ago the telephone was a similar medium. Our society has few opportunites for the sexes to interact and we choose to make fun of net encounters only because of its novelty value. I doubt 5 years hence this will even be an issue; but even if it is - it will be because of reasons to be found outside the colourful monitor but in people`s homes.

hmmm..still too early to form an opinion about the utility of the Internet.

People in different socities and geographical locations and at times from a common background will have different opinions about this issue...I feel I need not elaborate on this:)

You didn`t mention the hatred being generated by/on the net as highlighted by your article title.

Anyways,I have been reading your articles on chowk and occassionaly in some Pakistani computer magazines and generally find them to be interesting...

regards,

Taimur.

temporal #1

``While you have accentuated more on the positive stories, there are far more horrible and disgusting stories floating around... I know of more relationships that have broken up (partly) because of the Net than ones made.``

temporal, as someone who met his wife-to-be in cyberspace and asked her to marry him before meeting, i can only say this to you: tyeb ali, pyar ka dushman hai-hai.

regards

aakar patel

aakar patel #7:

First, may I indulge you and others reading this into a few moments of silence paying homage to the memory of former Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau who passed away 1510hours yesterday?

He was perhaps the last of the ‘philosopher-kings’ always suave, eloquent in TWO languages while other political leaders were not even in one, who was seldom afraid to speak his mind.
Thanks.

------moving along ---- this is not the occasion to remind you that I said ‘far more’ ....CONGRATULATIONS .. you old so-and-so!---you roped her in you devil BEFORE meeting her --- yeah, right! --- didn’t you sent in company sleuths after her and you knew who she was but were afraid once she looks you over she’d say NO in no uncertain terms so you proposed BEFORE meeting her --- now this IS the type of story I will secretly assign two of my best reporters -- first one would be an old cynical geeser and the second one a starry eyed hungry cub to do a in-depth. ;)

Forget M/s Tyabji, Cynicalji, Morarji & Co.

How about:
Jab pyar kiya tou darna ....
Jab pyar kisi say hota hai...

regards,

PS: Is Ashraf related to the senior Engineer?

Aakar Patel :

That was too good. You might then forever be in love with Internet.

Temporal:

Pyar kiya tho darna Kya..? Par it is better to be a bit careful about the girl`s brother and mother.

Pyaar ke dushman hai hai...



I went on a blind date once with the help of yahoo messenger. We had a lovely time until she said that she was engaged and only wanted to have some fun in a different way. Never met her again.

Internet- I just love it.

Pullu

i dont know what to say except that your article really hits home.

somthing like this just recently happened with me too though not a romance with an anonymous person but someone who i had known nearly 4 yrs ago. we started chatting randomly and emailing each other nearly 40 - 50 mails a day... and spoke of everything under the sun....and the issue of marriage came up and we kinda settled it to cuz he said that he wanted to come and meet my parents as he was intereseted...

anyway to cut a long story short he kept delaying it.... this whole relationship went on for 10 months....and then when i told him i was comig to his part of the world...i think he kinda panicked...BIG time!

and the whole relationship was passed of as a figment of my imagination... :)

so I IMAGINED his proposal, his saying that he wanted to come and meet my parents, IMAGINED all the emails that he`d been sending for all these months, the telephone conversations...EVERYTHING!!

anyway...thought your email interesting and hence decided to send my story in too.. :)

so all i can say to everyone out there is BE CAREFUL! am not saying dont get into relationships...am just saying even if u DO know the person that does not guarantee ANYTHING! the person can still very easily take u for a ride!

This article is so true. My friend met this Indian chick a few months back on the net and they got really involved.My friend was chatting at least 18 hours everyday. Things got so hot that he decided to meet the girl in Singapore. They somehow managed to do that and spent 3 or 4 days together. My friend came back and decided not to continue the relationship. We were so relieved. We didn`t want him to marry an Indian. But here is the funny part. The girl threatened to commit suicide and her parents who lived in the UK had to intervene. It seems she was in psychiatric care for a while.

The net maybe good for certain individuals and bad for others but one should not try and get too friendly with ones sworn enemies. It taught my friend a lesson he won`t forget anytime soon.

Aaker Patel met and proposed to his wife all on the internet. fRog goDdesS says some of her classmates also met their future spouses on the internet. I still think that these are exceptions, and all men are not as honorable as Aaker obviously is. For all you know, it may be a dog proposing to you over the internet.

Zeenat:

Hope you forgive this intrusion. Rec`d this rather disturbing email today. It is self explanatory.

rgds,

t

_______________________________________________

September 28, 2000
Committee to Protect Journalists
330 Seventh Avenue -- 12th floorNew York, NY 10001

His Excellency Gen. Pervez Musharraf
Chief Executive, Islamic Republic of Pakistan
General Headquarters, Pakistani ArmyRawalpindi, Pakistan
Via Facsimile: 92-51-922-4206

Your Excellency:

The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) is concerned by the threatening posture adopted by an army inspection team sent yesterday to the
headquarters of the Dawn Group of Newspapers at Haroon House in Karachi. The newspaper group includes some of Pakistan`s most influential and respected publications, including the English-language daily Dawn.

At around 10 a.m. on September 27, six military personnel arrived at the Dawn Group offices, along with a representative of the provincial electrical inspector and three engineers from the Karachi Electric Supply Corporation (KESC). The officers insisted on carrying their weapons, despite Dawn`s security requirements, and threatened to disconnect the building`s
electrical supply if they were not granted immediate access to all parts of the premises.

Though the involvement of the armed forces in electrical inspections has become routine in Pakistan-the practice began under the civilian
administration of former prime minister Nawaz Sharif-journalists at Dawn told CPJ that this inspection appeared to be an effort to harass and
intimidate the staff.

According to a statement published in today`s edition of Dawn: ``The high-handed manner in which the inspection by the army monitoring team was
carried out left the indelible impression that a punitive raid rather than an electrical inspection was the basic objective of the operation.``

The statement noted that the timing of the inspection was especially suspicious: ``There have been sufficient warnings over the last few days to publishers, editors, and journalists of the Dawn Group that the authorities were preparing for something `significant.` ``

Dawn journalists told CPJ that administration officials were particularly angered by a September 12 Dawn article entitled ``Free Press: Is Musharraf Having Second Thoughts?`` In the article, senior correspondent Shaheen Sehbai
noted that Your Excellency, on a recent visit to the United States, had exhibited a ``growing impatience with the Pakistani press . . . [complaining that] it was irresponsible, corrupt, unpatriotic at times, and not pursuing
healthy journalism.``

On September 18, Sehbai received an e-mail warning from a colleague, saying, ``The entire Information Ministry is up in arms against you over your Washington piece on the CE [Chief Executive]. . . So keep your head low, but
keep your pen up. And watch your back.``

The following day, September 19, Dawn received a letter from Javed Jabbar, minister of information and media development in Your Excellency`s
government. In the letter, Jabbar claimed that Sehbai`s article contained malicious and defamatory accusations against officials in the Information Ministry. He threatened legal action if the newspaper did not print a clarification.

Editors and reporters at Dawn say that in recent months they have received many more anonymous letters and phone calls than usual, accusing the
newspaper of publishing material that is against Pakistan`s national interests.

As a nonpartisan organization of journalists dedicated to the defense of our colleagues around the world, CPJ is troubled by these ominous signals that the Pakistani press may be coming under threat. Accordingly, we urge Your Excellency to issue a public statement reaffirming your professed commitment to respect media freedom. In the absence of constitutional protections and democratic safeguards, journalists in Pakistan are particularly vulnerable to arbitrary abuses of state power. CPJ hopes that your administration will not use its formidable powers to control the press, as previous military regimes have done.

Sincerely,
Ann K. Cooper
Executive Director

cc:
Hon. Maleeha Lodhi, Ambassador to the United States
Hon. Javed Jabbar, Minister of Information and Media Development
Pakistan Press FoundationSouth Asian Journalists Association
American Society of Newspaper EditorsAmnesty International
Article 19 (United Kingdom)Artikel 19 (The Netherlands)
Canadian Journalists for Free ExpressionFreedom ForumFreedom House
Human Rights WatchIndex on CensorshipInternational Center for Journalists
International Federation of JournalistsInternational PEN
International Press Institute
Harold Hongju Koh, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human
Rights, and LaborAlain Modoux, Director, UNESCO Freedom of Expression Program
The Newspaper GuildThe North American Broadcasters Association
Overseas Press ClubReporters Sans Frontières
Mary Robinson, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights
The Society of Professional JournalistsWorld Association of Newspapers
World Press Freedom Committee
Committee to Protect Journalists330 Seventh Avenue -- 12th floor
New York, NY 10001phone: 212-465-1004 fax: 212-465-9568e-mail: info@cpj.org
http://www.cpj.org

Hmmmmmmmm

May be there is still hope.

Anybody know any good pickup lines on the net? :)

Here`s my ``online fiasco story`` to add to the list:

Once there was a girl named Raveena (a classmate of mine) who met a Pakistani guy named Ahmed (a medical student abroad.) They formed a deep friendship over chat, which soon became romantic.

Ahmed came to visit Raveena every couple of months. She brought him to my home for dinner, and told my mother and I how her parents hated ``Muslim people.``

Pretty soon, Raveena told Ahmed that she could not live without him, etc. etc. Ahmed, on Raveena`s calling, dropped out of medical school and came to stay close to Raveena. Raveena dumped him in a week for an Indian classmate and told the story of how she ruined the life of her Pakistani boyfriend with glee.

Although Raveena was extremely cruel, I blame Ahmed for being so dumb.

confession time...
i am a recovering irc-holic. i mean, my fingers used to twitch if i wasnt in a chat room...there is something very wonderful ( pathetic and loserish) about going into a (chat) room and having all sorts of nicks yelling (typing out) your name and meeting people and friends. its a wonderful medium to meet all sorts of great, geeky, freaky people. its like yer living `cheers` (where everybody knows your name). you go in fresh because it is totally based on your personality ( net personlity i suppose) and not on the way you look or present yourself. much too often people forget that they have that aspect to deal with also. i have broken four hearts and met two soul mates in chat rooms...which is why i stopped going :) it can be hazardous to one`s life.
most people don`t match up to their net personality. its the same on chowk. ive been told im more sassy on the net than in real life. i don`t think so but there are less things that prohibit you when typing. thank god for email and the net. ive met and interacted with so many people whom i would have gone through life never finding out about or getting to know better. its how i stay in touch with loved ones when abroad. its opened up a whole new venue in communication.
3 years and irc free...woo-wee.

temporal

don`t know about ashraf, will ask him though.

regards

aakar patel

TAhmed!

Aye- Si.

There is a story in recent newspaper in San Antonio Texas.

A fifteen year old, very talented girl thought that nobody can fool her. Very brilliant. Fell in love on net. Met her lover in private without informing anybody. The person much older than her age molested her and continued until the parents of girl came to know of it and intervened.

I think body language, eyes, way of talking, demeanour, personality etc are very important.

Although frauds happen in real life without computer and computer can lead to good relationship, but one has to take decision very thoughtfully and involving known people before proceeding further.

krashid #5 bhai, itna ghusa??

re litmus

``one should not try and get too friendly with ones sworn enemies``

trust a desi to be superficial. trust him to be bigoted. and trust his education to be futile. so the relationship didnt work out. maybe reality wasn`t as attractive as the virtual image. oh, heck maybe they had just read too much into the whole thing. but why must the indian/pakistani thing be dragged into the whole sordid mess. ugh. and here i was thinking - progress - heres one article you couldnt drag the cross border bashing into. what a waste of space.

p.

temporal

ashraf says: ``no, no, no!`` re any relation with asghar ali.

regards

aakar patel

zehra #16, ``ive been told im more sassy on the net than in real life.``

I hear you. I`ve been told I`m a man countless times :).

``i don`t think so but there are less things that prohibit you when typing. thank god for email and the net.``

You said it! That`s the beauty of it all.

Awakening Hopeful #18:

Shukria!

Bibi ek baat bataaiN gar aap bura na maaneiN? Bold face ya capital words maiN liknay ko ‘net pur aisa samjha jata hay jaisay koi bad-tameez shuksh chilla raha ho. Yeh chowk tou hamari aapki baithak hay.

Initially I had some misgivings. Dawn Group is powerful and big and can fend for itself. But the powers that be in Pakistan should be aware that they do not have a carte blanche to misrule. And relative press freedom is an important part of guaranteeing that. It is indeed a pity that others who are usually so concerned haven’t expressed themselves more vociferously.

Please keep us posted of further developments.

scout #22 (and zehra #16)

zehra has just moved into nyc. You two should meet over some mean aloo-bhujiya. She is quite an interesting person in real life. Will give her your address.

aakar patel #21

Thanks. Swing a Niagara homage after the Big Event and visit/stay with us. When is the Big Moment? First time around?

love & regards,

temporal

Good lord, even the internet hasn`t helped my love life.. is there NO HOPE? :-)

Scout.. Raveena is an EX-friend, I trust?

Temporal and Awakening Hopeful.

I am with you on freedom of press.

Let me remind you. When Nawaz Sharif was launching attack on Jang newspaper, and Mir Shakil-ur-Rehman wanted solidarity of his workers, he announced that he will take care of grievances of workers after resolution of conflict with Government. It was related to wages etc.

We should know the current conflict between newspaper owners and Government (Omar Asghar) regarding seventh wage commission award.

You should also know that our Beaureaucracy is intent upon failing any system in which they have to relinquish power and therefore try to create rift between Government and different groups.

I think Dawn Newspaper is making a mound out of mole (considering the overall facts in this matter) to pressurize Government on Seventh Wage Commission Award. That is my sincere analysis on this situation.

Zehra, scout:

I agree with you about finding it easier to communicate with people through the net than other media. Being a tiny person with youthful looks, I`m often ignored as some silly teenager who`s got nothing useful to say. I`ve always found it difficult to get people to consider what I have to contribute without resorting to dramatic attention seeking measures. The net has made my life SO much easier - less pressure on my already strained vocal cords.

And I also find it easier to express myself through writing than speaking. I`ve grown closer to so many of my friends thanks to icq and e-mails than I would have otherwise. Same goes for strangers as well. Fewer inhibitions. And fewer barriers - I`m judged on MY terms, not on preconceived notions of others based on attire, accent, looks and whatnot.

Lubna #26:

“Dear Abby:

I have this dilemma. I cannot relate to people. For instance I have these oedipal feelings for this bird ......not a chick....that has lately been ..........”

Damn! Stop being so introspective here. See what I am being reminded of? ;) Allow me to introduce the special corner of Chowk -- Ask the Doctor --- don’t know if Alia is still there. Such posts should go there. No. forget it. Your post is rather harmless.

But we do know some folks here who need serious maintenance work done in the (almost) hollow cavity between the ears, don’t we? (Between us, M thinks I should be a serious candidate!)

Seriously, though, we need to introduce hu(wo)man-ness here. Your solo effort should be lauded. Most posters comes across as wooden --- aloof --- mechanical --- definitely not hu(wo)man.
Where is passion? Where is zest? Where are feelings I can almost hear (Ralph Waldo) Emerson asking?

tahmed321 (ironically) was lamenting about the two dimensional aspects of posts. Part of it can be attributed to the mechanical nature of responding -- the keyboard -- the time it takes to deliver the message and receive the response -- the absence of body language ---- the physical presence ---though some if not all of it can be removed by the language ---emoticons -- words and phrases when used suitably to reaffirm and accentuate a point --- and the comfort level with the use of the language. (I think the last is a serious concern.)

krashid #25:

Thank you for the insight.

Assad_K #24:

There is help round the corner. Heard of virtual-sex?

love & regards,

t

Zehra,

T-bhai told me you moved to NYC recently. Although I`m an hour`s train ride to the east, from Penn Station, I`d love for you to come visit me. I`ll pick you up at the station. Don`t hesistate to email me at jannat_bibi@yahoo.com.

I`m not as rude as I appear to be on Chowk. :)

I`ll even lend you my Britney Spears CD. Do you have the NSYNC one?

Assad_K #24, ``Scout.. Raveena is an EX-friend, I trust?``

She was never a very good friend, but I`m still nice to her just because I feel she has a lot of ``issues.``

Lubna #26, ``Being a tiny person with youthful

looks, I`m often ignored as some silly teenager who`s got nothing useful to say.``

I`m not as tiny as Kate Moss, but I have the same problem as you do. It helps speaking from the bottom of your stomach.

`` I`ve grown closer to so many of my friends thanks to icq and e-mails than I would have otherwise.``

ICQ say bach kay raho. It`s very hacker friendly.

One retard opened my CD drive and casually wrote on my screen, ``here`s a cup holder.``

BTW What was the point of narrating all those anecdotes....

Dear Shakir: Thanks for responding to my questions. Your responses are quite inadequate, unfortunately, as follows:

On your point (a), you say ``PTCL was matching ACL`s contribution``. If one accepts what you say, then this means PTCL is providing $4.5 million. But then PTCL and ACL together put in $9 m, and this leaves a gap of $21 million (total investment being $30 million, per your article). Who is this annonymous sugar-daddy who is putting in two-thirds of the investment that you ignore in your article and ignore in responding to my explicit question? I can only conclude that you are not interested in facts, and are just putting in a couple of numbers to create the impression of investigative reporting in what is basically a jumble of misconceptions and rhetoric.

On (b), if printed matter was indeed used in analyzing the financial aspects of the deal, then whoever used it did, for reasons described above, did a shoddy job of presenting the figures.

On (c), if ``ACL was contacted via e-mail but there was no response``, then this should have been mentioned in the article. And from your lack of response on my question regarding contacting the privatization commission I assume they were not contacted at all. And yet, it is the privatization commission that is most directly answerable to the public on this question. I find it astounding that you leave out basic facts, you leave out the point of view of other concerned parties, and respond (later on in your post) to gfm by saying that if there are other aspects he should let you know.

I would welcome investigative reporting like this. As gfm correctly notes, responsible journalism is an important foundation for a civilized society. But your article does nothing more than provide public forum for presenting the point of view of a bunch of PTCL bureaucrats jealously guarding any intrusion into their empire.

In future, if you wish to develop a career as an investigative journalist, I would suggest doing your homework and presenting facts from which the reader can draw his conclusions.

scout...you dont have to pick me up dear...we can meet somewhere ( she says warily...)...
umm..you Are joking about the britney thing right?

i`ll email.

lubna: i thought it was the nurse getting into the doctors car...that hot older man...his name was with an r..i cant recall now..the drama with `kabacha` in it. they are all merging now but im pretty sure it was not ankahee..ankahee had the hero/heroine accident intro when she dropped her file and their papers got mixed together..

:)

Lubna and Zehra,

You`re both wrong. Shehnaaz Sheikh got into Javed Sheikh`s car and demanded he take her somewhere, to a hospital or interview, I forget which. She meets Shakeel for the first time, when she bumps into him and mixes up the papers.

No wait, she did get into Shakeel`s car and demand he take her to the hospital at the beginning of the drama.

OKKKKKKKk now this is really starting to bug me.

Damn! Look what you two started?

Well, I know for sure, this scene wasn`t in Dhoop Kinaray or Tanhaiyan.

And this scene was copied in some Indian Salman Khan movie.

Temporal re:27

So the answer is at my fingertips, eh? :-)

(lucky I`m in a cheerful mood.. )

Cheers, AK

Assad_K #35:

[....finger tips...(lucky I`m in a cheerful mood.. )....]


----chuckle----grunt-----sigh-----smile

Yaar buhat badmaash hotay ja rahay ho. Shshshs,
hum nay tou buhat saray logouN say suna thaa kay andhay ho jao gay agar waisi hurkataiN jaari rakho gay.

Suna hay hadeesaiN bhee haiN.

Aur yeh bhee suna hay kay baaz baRRay aalimouN nay yeh bhee fatwa diya hay kay `oos` say roza bhee nahiN toot ta.

Two words that describe what I alluded to and what you did: harmless and harmful! Not really ;)

Darn -- what am I discussing such things this early?

...wallah aalam...

khair andesh

t

t #27:

oopsh... but i tot it wuz cunfession time! :(

since i didn`t have any romantic tales to tell, i thought i`d talk about myself and why i like the net......... :( ............ is alia still there?

On a serious note though, I agree with you and tahmed about the two-dimensional nature of interaction on the net. I haven`t come across many netizens, (I`m talking about the net in general), who`re dynamic in their interacts. Yes, there are barriers: you can`t really express the tone of your voice, can`t use facial expressions, other body signals to emphasize you points. And yes, like you said, there are ways to overcome them: emoticons can be used, other keyboard characters can be used. I tend to use my hands and facial expressions A LOT when I`m speaking. The only alternative to this I can think of when typing or writing are consecutive ! and/or ?

Your point about the level of comfort with the language being a concern is valid but then not everyone might be fluent in the language being used.

[Most posters comes across as wooden --- aloof --- mechanical --- definitely not hu(wo)man.

Where is passion? Where is zest? Where are feelings I can almost hear (Ralph Waldo) Emerson asking?]

I think part of the reason for this might be fear - fear of rejection, fear of revealing too much about yourself, fear of what other interactors might think about you, fear of sounding foolish, etc. On the internet interactors will judge you on your terms - it`s up to you what image you project of yourself. Many people probably shy away for fear of the consequences. They`re cautious about what they say. I`m not saying this is wrong - but too often the interactions come across as being impassive and detached.

Zehra, scout:

I still think it was Ankahi. It was in the first episode I think. Remember how she continues to talk non-stop throughout the ride? Remember the yellow sportscar? She needs to get her brother`s mediacl reports from home I think and doesn`t have enough time.

[i thought it was the nurse getting into the doctors car...that hot older man...his name was with an r..i cant recall now..the drama with `kabacha` in it.]

The drama with Kabacha was Tanhayian (no doctor there). The drama with the ``hot`` doctor :) was Dhoop Kinarey and his name was Rahat Kazmi (how could you forget HIM?).

[ankahee had the hero/heroine accident intro when she dropped her file and their papers got mixed together..]

That came afterwards - 2nd or 3rd episode I think.

Feel like watching them again... :)

Re: scout

``One retard opened my CD drive and casually wrote on my screen, ``here`s a cup holder.`` ``

Hahaha. I haven`t laughed so hard all week. Freaks.

Naive and gullible freaks who ``fall in love on the Internet`` deserve what they have coming their way. It`s usually the suckers who have social problems to begin with who go looking for relationships on the net.

Behind the internet`s veil, krashid could really be a cranky little girl, scout a WWF wrestler, temporal a beach bum from California, and I a bored grandma.

hi zee !!

yeah great article once again ...

the best thing about net is that here u can erally be what u are .... or be what u really are but can`t be in real life .... and then u find ppl exactly like you ... silly ... romantic ...progressive ... hopefull ... senstive ....

so best thing net gave us is comunication to share our thoughts or argued with them in broad aspects ..

and there is no rule one can or cannot fell in love on net !!

dont need to tell my story cause i know every one have one of there own !!!

zee do u have any of urz too ??

:o)

p.s zehra and scout : it is `Ankahi` drama ur talking about ....

Temporal re:36

I was going to write a long and witty reply, but my vision is beginning to blur.. so I`ll put it on hold. Hmmm... getting awfully dark around here..

Cheers, AK!

temporal #36 suna hai sar bhi ganja ho jata hai.

RSaxena #40:

[Behind the internet`s veil, krashid could really be a cranky little girl, scout a WWF wrestler, temporal a beach bum from California, and I a bored grandma.]

---Truth is guaranteed-- to use the creaking cliché ---stranger than fiction. Of the adjectives you used I can personally vouch for the near accuracy for two --- Scout is a sort of ‘wrestler’ of the fairy-tooth kind and am a bum of sorts. As for the other two -- no, I won’t hazard a guess --- or two I guess --- come on folks --- confession time----:)

tahmed321 #37:

[... suna hai sar bhi ganja ho jata hai.]

---- yaar pata nahiN kis duniya maiN rehtay haiN hum. So the hair too? That explains.

Moucho gracias brother tahmed321. All of a sudden the Quantum Theory of ‘that’ has fallen into place. As I look at the reflection I see reading glasses and thinning hair and ................. H E L P! ;)

rgds,

t

Awakening Hopeful #28:

CONFUSED and CONFUSING CONFUSIONS

[Aaray bhai, kuoon borah mantay ho.
Kabi kabi insaan ko cheekhnah be thow partha hai.
May agar cheekh para to koi bari baath nahi
... aasmaan thow nahe toot para!]


Mas’ala yeh hay pyaray bhai ya pyari behan kay aap nay ‘cheekh para’ likh kar humain tazabzoob maiN dal dia hay. (Used to have a Hyderabadi friend in pre-M. She consistently spoke of ‘main kaam kara raha hooN, maiN naha raha hooN, main paRRh raha hooN!)

Don’t know how, but I sort of gathered from other interactions that you are a female.

On a certain level it does not matter. Who says we cannot be gender-free and anonymous at the same time in this medium.

Laikin ab humaray liyay is baat ka taiy’yum buhat zaroori ho gaya hay. Go kay ziyadah tur hum hadd maiN rehtay haiN, laikin kabhi kabhi srif zaiqaa bad’l lainay kay liyay hum bay-adub bhi ho jaatay haiN. Laikin is`kay ba’wajood hum sinf-e-naazouk say phir bhee hud maiN reh kar baat karna chahtay haiN. Bus, bachchpun ki paRRi hu’ie ik boori aadat samajh lijiyay.

Confused, but hopefully not confusing,

aap ka

temporal

Rsaxena # 40

Thats the funniest post I ever read :)))

Re: temporal

Actually, I chose those adjectives carefully :)

Bored Grandma #40,

``Behind the internet`s veil, krashid could really be a cranky little girl,

scout a WWF wrestler, temporal a beach bum from California, and I a bored grandma.``

Holy Cow!! How`d you find that out? ;)

They call me Red Lightning.

t_bhai,

I`ve collected two garbage bags of soda cans for you.

Rsaxena #40, ``It`s usually the suckers who have social problems to begin with who go looking for relationships on the net.``

Do you speak from experience?

Sorry, couldn`t help it. :)

In reply to #: 40 RSaxena

Greetings! - Don`t you think you are being a bit too harsh? Sadly, some folks have this terrible idea about meeting online, others like myself, see online and offline meetings with both, plus and minus points. Heck, life does not come with guarantees! Can you say with assurance that meeting someone offline in the physical world is going to turn out better? Nah, I think not.

=zensufi.com=

Phoenix Rising #46,

*sniff sniff * Tissue please!

Your long ``aap beeti`` was even better than the article. Sorry Zeejah :)

Phoenix rising#

Have you ever tried single ads.

35 years old single female looking for a calm and dashing male. fun loving etc.

45 uears old bisexual looking for a couple for fun.

Just curious.

RSaxena, scout, temporal

Poochtey Hain woh ke krashid kon Hain

Koi batlao ke hum batlaen kia.

I think I am krashid. After that anybody can guess.

scout #49:

[I`ve collected two garbage bags of soda cans for you.]

ON RECYCLING

By a twist of Freudian logic when I came across the catch phrase ‘Return, Recycle, Reuse’ I took to recycling instantly. I cycle around a lot. There is a bike trail along the lake --- Martin Goodman Trail that hugs the lake for miles in either direction. I digress.

Leave the soda cans by the side entrance, not the pavement. I will collect them and turn them in for the deposit. Return, Recycle, Reuse. Who knows, depending on what happens here I may exchange the proceeds for a full can or two of the brew or for a sharp shiny object. (Wanna share, O Ayesha of the disorder infamy?)

What happens here merely alludes to the appearance of my various artworks. (Now that is what else but recycling of WORDS!) There’s one on eloquence written and submitted when Nawaz was still in power and another a tribute to Intezar Hussain the Urdu symbolic short story maestro. He is in town for an Urdu Anjuman Meet on Oct 8. I wish the organizers had the fore-thought to invite Dr. Muhammed Omar Memon of Wisc.U who had done so much to introduce him to the English world. Reminds me: must do piece on him to introduce him and his works to the vast Urdu diaspora not in academia. And another on beauty contest --purdah style. And another on ....

Patience is a virtue. I am tiring of virtue. It is a lonely existence. And running thin on patience. Hence the wistful thoughts about sharp gleaming whirling objects. Recycling souls. Words. ---- (Like this: might re-do as a short poem.)


[Patience, virtue’s soul
or harlot?
stretched and spread thin
-------(remember, we’re six billion?)-----
thinning like ozone
not enough to go around
gaps and holes
that let in
no light, dream or smile
but dark visions
of an end
that waits --- patiently.]

(.....and they say words are mightier than most sharp objects...)

love.

temporal

PS: Reality check: still early. Will wake up soon. Sorry if this spoils lunch.

Because the internet rose from the good ol` days of being solely the domain of ``geeks`` that a stigma has arisen to any social interaction via the Net.

In the 7 years that I`ve been surfing, my opinions on the Net have evolved from it being a ``gee whiz`` techie toy to a communication and information tool that I use just like I`d use the telephone/newspapers/books or anything else. Once the novelty wore off, the Net took it`s place beside any other ``real-life`` activities.

There are inherent risks when establishing any new relationship. With online, one doesn`t even know whether the person on the other is really male or female. but beyond that the unknown factor is very real when one meets through the more traditional real life methods as well.

To cite an example for meeting potential spouses very common in the west... boy meets girl in a bar. Does girl know much about him aside from the fact that he`s cute and charming? He could be an axe murderer for all she knows. She`ll have to turn on her instincts and common sense from that point onward when getting to know him.

Now lets cite an example of a method for meeting potential spouses very common in the ``East``. Girl receives Rishta from the family whom they don`t know very well. Parents have to do research on their own on the guy and his family.

I don`t know about others but i`ve heard of lots of cases of mother forcing a rishta on her son to a girl against his will when he was involved with someone else. After the marriage the girl finds out about the other woman but now there isn`t anything she can do about it.

So bottom line is no method of meeting people is foolproof. Caution, Common Sense and Instincts should be the order of the day when meeting anyone through any method.

Cheers,

Fozia

t #55:

``By a twist of Freudian logic when I came across the catch phrase ‘Return, Recycle, Reuse’ I took to recycling instantly. I cycle around a lot. There is a bike trail along the lake --- Martin Goodman Trail that hugs the lake for miles in either direction.``

heheh...

Good poem by the way and looks like you`re gonna have to go for the sharp shiny object. They`ve only posted one new one despite the fact that the couple at the bottom have been quite dead for some time now.

phoenix rising!

You are most welcome. Sometimes I am single.

In response to Mr Shakir reply no 19:

You wrote:

``this deal was quite lucrative so why was it that only one company bid for a huge and lucrative infrastructure JV??``

Good point. Please answer your own question becuase your article fails to do so. It is these holes in your argument -ie these answered questions that I have a problem with. It is your illogical deductive thinking that leads you to make assumptions that need further evidence and research. Additionally there are many other questions I have that I would like you to explore

1)Did only one company bid? Who else wanted to?

2) what were the the pre-reqs and qualifications for the bid?

3) who are other companies in the Pakistani network infrastructure market that you feel could potentially do such a joint venture?

My own view point is that PTCL and most of Pakistan has a problem with landing investment - foreign or local . Huge firms espcially big infrastructure firms are not neccessarily investing in Pakistan with just firms like Nortel (and a few others) selling network components to Pakistan. I don`t see them investing in Pakistan anytime soon and I really don`t know if Pakistanis ISPs and infrastructure telcos have the monetary capital to invest in such a JV. Maybe ACL were the only people to invest in such a project because Pakistan is such a crazy place for investment (the only fools PTCL could get 4.8Million from) or maybe it was an under handed deal like your article has implied. But the fact of the matter is you need more proof and better information to say that it was a dirty deal. For all intense purposes the deal could be totally viable -not stupid neither corrupt.

Secondly leading from this point I never categorically denied your argument but merely stated that you cannot make your accusations with out obtaining more proof. To help you out and being in London I have located Akthar technologies phone number. Please give this CEO Mr. Mughal a call and say that Herald would like to interview him. (Hopefully Herald would pay for the costs). I think a lot of people would be interested to hear thic chap`s point of view and answer the questions that you yourself have not been able to get to the bottom of. Maybe then we can really see things in perspective and maybe then you yourself can finish your investigative article and gain credibility.

44 01279 821 200

Thirdly you wrote:

``Why should PTCL share revenues when it doesn`t need to. A JV is undertaken for two reasons: 1) a lack of expertise, and 2) a lack of capital.``

A JV could be taken for a number of reasons but primarily to make money. Hence to reduce the risk of a new investment (ie tele-housing) a joint partner might not neccessarily have the required expertise (though I presume hardware components and networking will be required -something ACL can provide) but a Joint partner can provide capital only .

Fourthly the other question I had relates to what you wrote in the article:

``The amount is a paltry US$ 4.48 million invested over a period of three years and not the US$ 30 million as stated by press release on PTCL’s website. Under the terms of this Agreement PTCL will have a 51% stake in this venture, while ACL will hold a 49% stake``

Back to tahmed`s point - How the hell can ACL expect 51% in the venture if if has only put in 4.48m out of a 30M investment even over a 3 year period? Either my friend you have your numbers wrong or the PTCL can`t even add up numbers. Plus money that is made (ie profit) should be shared according to % investment. This is basic business. Also you mentioned that ACL would invest over a period of time and would be use their profit stream generated from the JV back into the JV. Nothing wrong with that. Would have to look at the business model but it sounds a pretty risky venture from the ACL point of view and a good deal from PTCL`s view point of reducing their own risk.

Fifthly you wrote:

``Government will be sending negative signals to two very important types of investors``

WHy? If anything a joint venture if implemented well could spur growth in the telco industry and get local ASPs and ISPs to generate more revenue from telehousing by providing more services.

Sixthly to your point of ACL expertise and implementation. You yourself have mentioned that it is a JV and that PTCL can do most of the services. The question you have to ask yourself is why ACL? In my opinion it could be the investment and even the expertise in hardware and software that is required to run a tele-house. PTCL has the knowledge of its infrastructure and network (why does it need someone else who does?) it might just need a PC company that can provide servers, PCs, hardware and basic software to service these tele-houses. ACL might just prove the bill. Please do more homework.

And to SameerJB and the very poetic Khursid - remember very time you might not understand something - jumping to conspiracy theories that the there is back hand dealing etc. is a very dangerous way to live in civil society. Yes I agree that in pakistan there is an immenese amount of corruption and government officials are always wanting kick backs, but to always, always jump to conclusions without seeing the whole picture condemns good innocent people. I have seen Mr. Mughal (ACL) speak at a venue and he seems to be a hard working low key conservative chap who has always aspired to return the success he has achieved abroad back to his country. It is important that we un-cover more facts and data before you condemn companies and people.

One day we might not trust any Pakistani at all and we end up living in a McCarthy era where even good people are bad.

shakir #19 You write ``As for doing my homework, I think I did more than enough. ``

I took the trouble of explaining my statement concerning your homework. You ignore my explanations, and simply reject what I was trying to get through to you. Such arbitrary pronouncements can be expected from a mullah or a military despot, but falls short of the level of self-confidence and professionalism one would expect from a journalist. One can hardly expect an intelligent discussion based on this attitude.

gfm #20 Good job in providing Mr. Mughal`s phone number to Mr. Shakir so he can listen to a different point of view than that of PTCL bureaucrats. :-)

I remember many years ago I took a job interview with the state government of Michigan at our university placement office. The interviewer from the state government posed the following question: ``Suppose you are working for the Michigan state government and VW applies for building an auto plant in Michigan. How would you handle it?`` Having just spent an year training with the Pakistan civil service, my (very poor) response was: I would reject it, since if there were any good investment opportunities they should be given to Michigan firms like GM or Ford. The interviewer gently informed me that the correct answer would be to give them a big welcome since the more investors there are, the more competition there is, the better off the people of Michigan would be.

I have reflected on that interview a number of times in the intervening years, and realize the wisdom behind the interviewer`s viewpoint. Here are some illustrations:

(a) Even an advanced country like Germany was lagging behind in the telecom (and in IT generally) due to a slow-moving Deutsche Telecomm. Then Deutsche Telecomm was privatized. And now things are a lot different and DT is busy expanding as I understand it (having recently completed the very public purchase of a key US tech firm, Voicestream). (b) Another example: the reason Finland is the world leader in wireless telephones is that in the 1930`s they privatized their radio stations and Finland had 40 private stations and has remained very dynamic in this field.

(c) Closer home, in a different sector, the commercial banking sector of Pakistan was a progressive and thriving sector until Bhutto killed the goose that laid the golden eggs by nationalizing it. Trying to undo that, as with the Muslim Commercial Bank is a long and painful process (but well worth it, since MCB I understand is doing much better after privatization).

Shakir sahib`s viewpoint (never mind the lack of figures and all that you and I have already pointed out to him) reminds me of the same inward looking mentality that infect Pakistan (and indeed most third world country).

I agree that one needs to make sure that we need a good regulatory framework along with privatization, but I dont think the Pakistani civil service can do it, given its current mindset and incentives structure. They are trying to fix that by improving government pay scales, so let us see.

Awakening Hopeful #60:

[....used this time to me in your post.....]
---(slap on the wrist) ....apologise if I was rude .... don’t remember though.

All right, will stick to simple(r) words ---- really ----- promise not to throw Ghalib’s difficult couplets or the near Persian lines from Noon Meem Rashid.

[...spent most of my childhood on the west coast ....]
---you don’t know what you missed --- scout has vividly described it in her response recently the winter magic of the Eastern sea board.

[... nomad of sorts...] and the Whitman quotes remind me of: “My life is a special Ali Baba`s cave full of old friends, books, memories, incidents and experiences. When I feel like hitting the `pause` button on life, I say the magic words ``khul jaa sim sim`` and am instantly transformed to another world. Was born a few thousand years back. Have floated like a cloud since....collecting flavours and smells and colours mostly from Europe and mid or western Asia. Over the last few years am regurgitating all those thoughts, experiences and feelings into a cohesive outlook; the Devi of success is at best elusive. Someday, before I float away again, this will crystallize.”

more such thoughts at:

http://www.chowk.com/people/Tools/cc_printhome.cgi?temporal

If you have registered for an email address with hotmail, or yahoo drop in a line through the address on this page. Anonymity can be fun ;)

[...pool of water ....]
---Am sure Lake Ontario has been described many ways but never as a pool of water. LOL.

[makes you sound like a very secure person with this type of ``enclosure`` habit of yours of circumventing your lake. (Hint to my profession...) ]
---Now this is an interesting observation. Are you an amateur or do you also charge by the minute? Here is a thought. If I am ‘secure’ enough I can wait till the answer appears on its own volition. Or it mayn’t appear at all. It shouldn’t matter in the least.

But to be truthful am just a normal secure person whose flood-gates of tolerance sometimes burst open by intransigence, intolerance, stupidness, or pure bigotry and hatred AND (of course) abuse of the language.


[Sometimes we miss what we NEED to ingratiate inner satisfaction for ourselves written from someone else`s hand that heals us.]
---if I understand it correctly this is profound but am not sure. Please elaborate.


[I hope that each writer will contribute to the collective whole of the readers here on Chowk, and make us all better people and citizens in our respective societies.]
---This I reciprocate fully. And thanks.

regards,

temporal

Comments welcome from anyone.

Specially from the Qur`an thumping, hadith quoting, Ayatollah-Maulana following Jannati Brigade of the Me-Muslim-you-duck crowd.

Two questions:

1: This time what quotations/narrations would you share with us?

and

2: What can YOU really do about this?

``The house of vices`` at

http://www.dawn.com/2000/10/04/fea.htm#1

anxiously waiting,

---t

Dear Zeejah,

Thanks for sharing.Its true sometime you gain more than what you deserve and sometime you loose all what you got. Isn`t this a strange thing? I don`t want to believe in hate on the net but its possible since I saw it myself so close that I was not aware of it myself. My own half was in love and I was not aware of being hated at the same time. My own kainaat was slipping away and I didn`t know. My suraj was setting but no hope for chand nor sitara`s. Anyway, I hope it bring happiness and joy to everyone. Again, very kind of you to make them aware of all the possiblities.All the best in every walk of life and hope to see you around with more articles.Take care

Regards

tumhe.n kyaa Khabar ke mai.n kaun huu.N

mere qaatilo.n se hii se puuchh lo

ji.nhe.n hukm-e-qatl milaa magar

ji.nhe.n ajr-e-qatl milaa nahii.n

Musafir #65

Who is the poet.

Jinhe Hukm Qatal Mila Agar

Jinhe Ajr-e Qatal Mila Nahin

RE: Temporal # 64

t!
Resist the temptation of mediocrity.

I hope you have heard this story before.

Once upon a time there was a man named Jay........... well you know the story from start to end....don`t you?

Urstruly #67:

Sab say pehlay ma’azrat. Hum kisi ka dil nahiN dukhana chahtay haiN. Sakht baat thee aur humnay shaaya kuch ziyada hee sakhti say likh dee. Mediocrity kaa tou sawaal hee nahiN paida hota hay.

Agar aap ghore karaiN tou qissa yeh hay key jin baatouN ka asar humari roz murrah ki zindagi par waajbi sa hota hay, hum baRRi shidd o madd say ayataiN aur hadessaiN bayan kar daitay haiN. Laikin oon baatouN ko jin ka humari rozmurrah ki zindagi pay ziyadah asar paRRta hay oos ko hum bilkul nazar andaaz kar daitay haiN. Kiyoun bhala? Allah na karay aap ka koi qareebi aziz jail maiN ho. Laikin humari jailouN maiN jo kuch ho raha hay oos say hum aankh nahiN bachaa sakhtay haiN. Kisi bhee zindah maa’shray kay liyay yeh buhat ma’ayoub baat hogi kay aisi harkatouN say oos kay paRRhay likhay hazrat bhee haath dhou baithaiN.

Aur oos mal’oun say muqabla kar kay aap nay ghaliban na’danistagi main humaiN aur dookh pohnchaya hay.

aapka,

temporal

Krashid Reply #66

Khalid Ali is the name of the poet.Hope that helps.

Regards

Most of the people have telltale signs that they will make it big; then hardly very few of them ever do. It is not that most of them start beleiving that they will fail; it is the fact that they fail to beleive in themselves.

to maia,

sorry to sound patronizing but Maia, it is important to understand the power of journalism and what it takes to reach the ever evasive totality of truth -

Just reiterating my earlier reply to the author:

``Your article is well written and we do need more people like you in Pakistan uncovering the truth and doing investigative journalism. I have immense respect for people like you who are at least doing their best and actually making a change in their country

But it is absolutely essential that all facts are taken into account before insinuations are made. Good lives of people can be ruined with the touch of a pen. The article is merely a skeleton that needs more data, logic and conclusive proof to back up its accusations``

temporal: I read the House of Vices story from Dawn that you posted. Actually I dont think it is the mullahs alone who should be concerned about the situation, but everyone. I am glad that Dawn decided to report on this. I also have read about some organizations in Pakistan that are trying to bring about prison reforms in Pakistan, but obviously this is not enough.

............. get a grip on yourself ! all the net is good for is ranting and raving and letting your unadulterated incoherent thoughts dribble onto the keyboard and out in garbled bits and bytes to annoy, pester, and irk those who take themselves seriously ........... that is why i resent the pompous temporal so much - he, the pathetic little grammarian, wants us to put a brake on our thoughts .... he wants us - we who don`t care to know the difference between conjunction and preposition - to write perfect english with periods and commas and hyphens and this and that ......... he who stands between us and the cathartic joy of letting it all out in one relieving diarrhetic deluge of words .....

.............. and then there are those who cruise the net looking for love and friendship and godknowswhat .......... `` a bunch of loosers ``, as my seven year old would say ...... get a life, get a dog, get pregnant, or simply get drunk ............ do something - but for god`s sake stop using the net for things that can only be done in flesh and blood ..... can`t stand these.... these perverts ... these voyeurs on the net who are too cheap to give out their credit card numbers, or pay a therapist, and instead lurk in feee chat rooms - looking for love and intimacy and god in all the wrong places ..............

............. did i manage to insult someone out there - good, because that`s what the net is good for ...... nana nana boo boo .........etiquettes should be reserved for the dining room and the ante room - so let`s cut loose on the net and piss off temporal and his soul-mate sadna.....

hamidm #73,

tsk tsk tskkkkk....live and let live, everyone has his or her own perspective and priorities.

I`m taking out a copyright.

HamidM#73

you are ``Temporal Shikan``.

Any way awakening hopeful has come with real prophet Jibran for poor souls like us.

hamidm #73:

....et tu hamidm?....apologise if #64 struck a chord....couldn`t find anything appropriate in that dog-eared Dawood?....don`t blame you for being mortal....I resist throwing quotes around because (1) am busy writing the next ten chapters or (2) my interpretation differs from others .... (3) truth awakens in heart due to awareness not indoctrination...take your pick.....omnia vincit amor nos et cedamus amori...now back to thanksgiving .....t




............. get a grip on yourself ! all the net is good for is ranting and raving and letting your unadulterated incoherent thoughts dribble onto the keyboard and out in garbled bits and bytes to annoy, pester, and irk those who take themselves seriously ........... that is why i resent the pompous temporal so much - he, the pathetic little grammarian, wants us to put a brake on our thoughts .... he wants us - we who don`t care to know the difference between conjunction and preposition - to write perfect english with periods and commas and hyphens and this and that ......... he who stands between us and the cathartic joy of letting it all out in one relieving diarrhetic deluge of words .....


.............. and then there are those who cruise the net looking for love and friendship and godknowswhat .......... `` a bunch of loosers ``, as my seven year old would say ...... get a life, get a dog, get pregnant, or simply get drunk ............ do something - but for god`s sake stop using the net for things that can only be done in flesh and blood ..... can`t stand these.... these perverts ... these voyeurs on the net who are too cheap to give out their credit card numbers, or pay a therapist, and instead lurk in feee chat rooms - looking for love and intimacy and god in all the wrong places ..............



............. did i manage to insult someone out there - good, because that`s what the net is good for ...... nana nana boo boo .........etiquettes should be reserved for the dining room and the ante room - so let`s cut loose on the net and piss off temporal and his soul-mate sadna

temporal

..... actually i almost missed the ``house of vice`` thing ....do i have an excuse for such sordid behaviour ? of course i do ........ i am sure i can come up with an appropriate verse from the Koran or Bob Dylan or Jerry Garcia or Dave Matthews, that can provide some excuse for such inappropriate behaviour ........ for now i quote (or misquote) the warrior poet who inspires the Taliban into hyper-activity...... i have been told by extremely unreliable and inebriated sources that Khushal Khan Khattak once said :

there is a boy across the river

whose bottom is like a peach

alas, i cannot swim

..... and yes, i am ashamed of myself..... even the venerable Jerry Garcia wasn`t sure about this :

Just a song of Gomorrah, I wonder what they did there

Must`ve been a bad thing to get shot down for

I wonder how they blew it up or if they burned it down

Get out, get out Mr. Lot and don`t you turn around

temporal

..... actually i almost missed the ``house of vice`` thing ....do i have an excuse for such sordid behaviour ? of course i do ........ i am sure i can come up with an appropriate verse from the Koran or Bob Dylan or Jerry Garcia or Dave Matthews, that can provide some excuse for such inappropriate behaviour ........ for now i quote (or misquote) the warrior poet who inspires the Taliban into hyper-activity...... i have been told by extremely unreliable and inebriated sources that Khushal Khan Khattak once said :

there is a boy across the river

whose bottom is like a peach

alas, i cannot swim

..... and yes, i am ashamed of myself..... even the venerable Jerry Garcia wasn`t sure about this :

Just a song of Gomorrah, I wonder what they did there

Must`ve been a bad thing to get shot down for

I wonder how they blew it up or if they burned it down

Get out, get out Mr. Lot and don`t you turn around

It is very interesting that tho many ppl interact when i put up an article on chowk...very soon they start using it as a message board and my article takes a back seat...not that i mind...it is just an observation...and something i plan to do too, ...;)

temporal...i spoke to the gentleman yesterday, he left for islamabad and promised to let me know when he gets back..i`ll ask him to put in a few personal words for u too, if u like... btw...wot is your name? or should he write to temporal (with a small t)?...;)

hamidm #73 Next time you get the urge to foam and dribble and offend...maybe you oughto lie down, close your eyes, take deep breaths and imagine yourself on a beach or someplace. Once you are exorcised of the urge, go back and read again from temporal`s posts on communication skills. Personally, I appreciate temporal`s efforts to establish some writing standards around here.

temporal: Please note how I rise to your defence, and in return please translate

``omnia vincit amor nos et cedamus amori`` that

you deliberately planted in your previous post to cause hamidm to start foaming and dribbling again.

Awakening hopeful [#61]

The nickname, yes, is in reference to Phoenix, the legendary bird that arises from it’s own ashes. There is somewhat of a parallel. No, it’s not literal but, in a sense, I have risen from the ashes of my past. Thanks for the appreciation.

Yes, whenever I can, I will offer my clean and fresh insights. Though, I am not from the West Coast. It shouldn’t really surprise you that I am in Karachi and have been since the day I was born. There are a few of us here with some intellect and emotional capacity. As for the way I write... I have a few books in the works... all I need is to complete them and find a publisher. *smile *

shammi #28 Thanks for the url for the article on Bangalore, which I read with interest. A couple of observations:

The article mentions 26 firms worldwide (13 in India) that have achieved Level 5 status in the SEI CMM. I recall about three years ago there were only 4, with at least one (the Motorola team) in India. I have not followed developments on the CMM lately, but looks like it is pretty hard to get. The more general ISO 9000 ``certification`` seems to be much more widely given out.

Also, Economist.com has a special section on the Indian economy this time, and is generally quite upbeat and also provides some interesting insights.

By the way, since the chowkwalas dont mind wot one interacts about, how about checking out my articles etc on: http://www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/author/view_author_info.gsp?auth_id=23937&action=more

u can interact there too...;)

AH you write ``[efforts to establish some writing standards here. OH! ``around`` here``.

I guess this is an example of being ``hoist on my own petard``. :-)

I think the IRS blew a huge amount ($100 m. is the round number I have heard) on false starts before finally getting somewhere. I guess they found God after that, setting the bar at Level 4 as you say. I recall about 5 years ago they blew $100m. trying to computerize the London Stock Exchange. The whole effort was scrapped - the reasons to have something to do with lack of user involvement (they were building an ``invisible palace``, one of the London newspapers reported back then). Although this is not an issue at this time in the press, I fear that investments in IT by the governments in poor countries may be incurring much waste due to poorly conceived projects, although probably at not such large amounts as happens in the rich countries. And the improvements with successful efforts (e.g. the reduction in elapsed time for processing civil cases in Karnatka from 9 years to 15 minutes in certain cases, bringing of land records within control) will in the long run definitely outweigh the losses due to unsuccessful ones.

Dear Zeejah!

I am quite impressed with your site.

Re: Awakening Hopeful #85

I don`t know about that Sufi proverb. Perhaps it has something to do with necessity. But it brings to mind Christ`s 40 days in the desert. After surviving on nothing but locusts and wild honey Christ is visited by Satan who challenges him to turn stone into bread. To which he responds, ``Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.``

Hope that further obfuscates the issue. ;-)

Jonty

Awakening Hopeful,

Being Christian, I can help you out with that quote from the Bible.

A woman who had committed a sin was cast out and to be stoned. Jesus intervened and stopped them saying, ``Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.`` It was meant to be a lesson to all that if someone is willing to honestly repent for their sins then they should be forgiven and that all are equal in the eyes of God.

As for the Sufi`ism, I`m sure there are a number of ways in which to interpret it. Hoewvere, I see no parallel between the two.

If you want to discuss this further, I`m all ears. Or eyes as the case may be. *smile *

Phoenix.

Hi Zeenat.

I liked your site but there`s just so much there to read, i just hope I can find the time. *smile *

I see that your personal site is on the same server as mine. 8m.com

Keep up the good work, and I`ll try not to upstage you with my re