Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred

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PS. QUESTION NO. 3

When will you grow up?

sigalph235

Happy Dilwali to you!!

Read the following carefully and answer the questions.

I know you are in the habit of quoting statements out of context.. example, Suharwadi’s statement re Palestine. Also you seem to have a short concentration span. But for once, try reading the whole of the following statement:

“Perhaps you were not expecting to be taken on by anybody on this site for your bigotry....be careful about what you say next time..”

QUESTION NO. 1

Now tell me, how does a sincere advice asking you to carefully think about your comments before you post them constitute a threat?

An example of your less than prudent behaviour, on which my advice was/is based, is your following post:

sigalph235 Post #17

“A Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza is a nightmare. These ex-terrorists can hardly run the little piece they are lording over in Gaza right now. Heck, they treat dissent with a brutality which is comparable to the worst Israeli actions. Give them a bigger piece and they will become the slave-masters of the rest of the Arab population there. Give them Jerusalem and they`ll probably blow it up like they use to regularly blow up airplanes.

Arabs and their lackey poorer Muslim nations will need to heed the the late HS Suhrawardy`s statement: Israel has come to stay. And she intends to stay with her historic capital of Jerusalem. Once the rabid emotionalism is settled thw world will realise what a mistake it is turn Jerusalem over to the PLO.”

When you make such inflammatory comments, be ready for an appropriate response. Don’t expect that everybody on this site will overlook your comments because we (Pakistanis) have a soft spot for Bengalis.

Your childish statement:

“I come from a people who gave 3 million lives for freedom in a heartbeat. Your threats will not deter me from speaking out. “

which you posted while responding to my sincere advice asking you to think before you speak, and look before you jump, I made the following remarks:

“And I am sure if those brave and generous Bengali ``Muslims`` found out about your bigotry, they won`t mind adding another one to 3 million :)”

QUESTION NO. 2

How does a statement with clear indication that a pun was intended (do you know what a smiley face means? It means pun intended) becomes a death treat?

Your attitude has forced me to wonder whether or not Mukti Bahinis had lied when claiming persecution on the grounds of Pak army’s high handed approach?….like you have here…. Also, I wonder if Pakistan Army’s allegations against Mukti Bahini had some basis?

re fairdinkum

Don`t be afraid of the Qur`an; only the Devil is. The word `shame` does not look good coming from someone like you whose manners and language bespeak a degradation of mind and a destitution of soul. There is an old saying in Bengali that translates into `tools don`t make a carpenter`. Obviously, even having access to the best technology of communication/interaction, you have yet to learn the most common precepts of civility. Calling me hypocrite, lowlife, etc etc or threatning me with murder reflects far less on me and much more on you and your background. It is people like you who fueled the disintegration of Pakistan. Keep on, my friend! There are three more provinces to go! And give me a call when all your nonsense and Arafat`s terror has established a Palestinian state.

PS. Now that your hypocricy is exposed, all of sudden you have started quoting Quranic verses. Man, do you have any shame at all?

And if you have decided to turn to Quran(be it for deceiving the ``believers``), please mend your ways. Read all the verses about hypocrites. You will get a fair idea about where you`ll finally rest unless you get your act together!

sigalph235 #130

My poor persecuted hypocrite,

issay kehtay hain ungli kata kar shaheedoon main shamil hoonay ki kooshish :) bulkay khud hi ungli kaat kar shaheedoon main shamil hoonay ki kooshish :)

Settle down mate! Your cheap rhetoric, bigotry, and hypocrisy only makes you a low life! Not a spokesperson for humanity or a candidate for martyrdom :) Rest assured, nobody is interested in making a martyr out of a low life like you. Your biggest achievement is your exposure as a hypocrite. For that you should be thankful to me, instead of claiming persecution and complaining :)

I have given you a chance to dig yourself out and reassess your misguided ways in light of your hypocritical stance against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians.

And don’t ever identify yourself with oppressed Bengalis of erstwhile East Pakistan… You are a hypocrite, and that’s your nationality, race, and religion!

The only consistency I see in you is your failure to answer any of the questions of any interactor who opposed your hypocritical stance on this board. You may have been spared in the past for your bigotry, and cheap rhetoric as most of us (Pakistanis) have a soft spot for Bengalis for what our government/army did to them. And despite your claim ``I come from a people you gave 3 million lives for freedom in a heartbeat``, it is clear that you are not a Bengali, you are just a hypocrite!

re fairdinkum # 129

`And I am sure if those brave and generous Bengali ``Muslims`` found out about your bigotry, they won`t mind adding another one to 3 million :)`

This is not the first time my life has been threatened. I have been writing for three years in various newspapers aganist the Hasina Wajed regime and, consequently, heard rants and raves from Awami Leaguers. But I never thought that even in the heat of argument you`d stoop so low as to threaten murder. Not that I worry too much. I have always believed that life and death are but Gifts of the Almighty. When my time comes, so be it. After all, it is well said in the Qur`an that ``From Him we come and unto Him we return.``

Funny YOU call ME a bigot and then want to kill me! Is there any greater bigotry than thirsting after someone`s life just because you disagree with that person? But then you are only wasting your time hoping to see me dead. Silencing dissent never kills it or else Nazism and Communism would still be around. Killing me would not end the line of those who believe that Palestinians ought not to be used as pawns of the PLO and the other Arabs anymore.

sigalph235

And I am sure if those brave and generous Bengali ``Muslims`` found out about your bigotry, they won`t mind adding another one to 3 million :)

Siagalph #235

You think that

Since you (meaning Mukti Bahini) did not send eight years old to throw stones, therefore your movement was right.

And since Palestinian children are throwing stones their movement is wrong.

Or, do you mean something else.

Also killing of different groups in Bangladesh at the hands of each other, you don`t think is same as killing by Pakistani mercenaries.

But you think, think that killing of palestinians by their own brothers is same as killing and disposession by jews and Israel.

Can you be consistent in applying criteria. Or America Yatra (travel) by Hasina Wajid and quota for clothes is your criteria of taking sides.

re fairdinkum`s threat

`...be careful about what you say next time..`

I come from a people who gave 3 million lives for freedom in a heartbeat. Your threats will not deter me from speaking out.

sigalph235 #125

``All in all, with all due respect, you have wrote a lot in post #121 but said nothing.``

Or perhaps you failed to understand it?
You haven`t answered any of my questions.. have you?

Btw, your bigotry/hatred/bitterness/resentment towards Muslims/Palestinians/Arabs is quite obvious.. It`s no different to Pakistani Eastern command`s hatred for Bengalis..

Perhaps you were not expecting to be taken on by anybody on this site for your bigotry....be careful about what you say next time..

re fairdinkum #121

Your response is predicated on three themes:

1. Patronizing me by dragging the erstwhile issue of the former East Pakistan in reference to Palestinians

2. Trying to label me an Anti-Arab, Anti-Islamic bigot

3. Trying to label me as ignorant, to say the least.

My opinions on the first theme are well known and well articulated before. There is no comparison. Indian Bengalis were not killing East Pakistani Bengalis, unlike Syrian/Jordianian/Lebanese behaviour towards Palestinans. Mukti Bahini never blew up PIA planes. We did not send our eight year olds to throw stones at Pakistani tanks.

On the second theme, well what can I say. If calling me a bigot is all you got, I feel pretty confident of the veracity of my arguments. BTW I never insulted the Mahdi but did question the imbecility of believing that he will do the earthly work of the PLO.

Regarding the third theme, trust me ignorance is a two way street. Just because someone refuses to go along with popular beliefs does not connote ignorance.

All in all, with all due respect, you have wrote a lot in post #121 but said nothing.

UN General Assembly condemns Israel

AAP --
The UN General Assembly voted by a large majority late today to condemn what it called Israel`s ``excessive use`` of force against Palestinian civilians, but 46 countries abstained.

The resolution was adopted by 92 votes to six, Israel, the United States and four small Pacific Ocean states voting against.

The vote revealed a sharp split within the European Union, with six EU states abstaining and nine voting in favour.

Australia, with Canada, Japan, New Zealand and Norway, was among other leading Western nations to abstain from voting.

The vote was taken after an eight-hour special emergency session which began on Wednesday and was adjourned for two days so UN Secretary General Kofi Annan could brief the Assembly on his 10-day trip to the Middle East.

The resolution condemned ``acts of violence, especially the excessive use by the Israeli forces of force against Palestinian civilians``.

It expressed support for the understandings reached at the Sharm el-Sheikh summit and urged ``all parties concerned to implement these understandings honestly and without delay``.

It demanded ``the immediate cessation of violence and use of force`` and called on the parties to ``reverse all measures taken in this regard since September 28``.

It described Israeli settlements in occupied Palestinian territory, including Jerusalem, as ``illegal and an obstacle to peace``.

It called upon ``Israel, the occupying power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilians in Time of War``.

The session was called at the request of the Palestinian observer to the United Nations, Nasser Al-Kidwa, after it became clear that the UN Security Council would not hold a second meeting on the crisis.

Under rules dating to 1950, the Assembly can hold such a session if a lack of unanimity among the five permanent Security Council members prevent the body from exercising its primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security.

The Assembly has held 10 special emergency sessions, most of them on the Middle East. The current session has been suspended five times since 1997.

The Assembly resolution echoed much of the language in a resolution adopted by the Council by 14 votes to none on October 7.

The US ambassador to the United Nations, Richard Holbrooke, who had abstained on the first council vote, said he would veto any new council resolution that criticised Israel.

No member state has a veto in the General Assembly, but unlike Council resolutions, decisions of the Assembly are not binding upon member states.

Holbrooke told reporters before today`s vote that a decision of the Assembly would not have ``the weight, the legitimacy or the authority`` of the Council. - AFP

sadna #122

Thanks for noting that ‘appropriate’ sentiments have not been expressed on this thread in response to the human tragedy of Palestine. And I am aware that such sentiments are not absent.

Yes, I concur ‘giving in’ to violence is not going to bring lasting peace to the region. Violence should stop on both sides… However, keep in mind that one should not narrow the definition of violence down to stone throwing and PLO “terrorist” acts alone. Violence is a broad term!

“IMO a lasting solution has been made difficult by the fact that the `democratic` or representative structures to reflect the various shades of political opinions of most Palentinians and Kashmiris are weak or lacking(or forcibly silenced with the threat of terrorist/state violence). This results in neither of these groups (if taken as single entities) being able to deliver workable, sustainable and largely representative positions in response to any event or initiative, thus frittering away any progress towards solutions.”

To some extent yes… I don’t know much about the political groupings and dynamics of Kashmiri separatists/freedom fighters, but I think PLO largely represents what majority of Palestinians aspires. As for the violence/terrorist activities of PLO and its splinter groups in the past, I believe that their approach in the 70’s was totally misguided. But then, it’s not what you do, its how you do it that matters … and apparently, in this otherwise topsy-turvy world, who does it is also of utmost importance.

I acknowledge the lack of organized, disciplined political efforts on the part of Palestinians to achieve a comprehensive political solution to their miseries, but US-Israel alliance has been and is a formidable opposition for the penniless, homeless, oppressed Palestinians. If Israeli government finds that the promises they made to Palestinians are now becoming unpopular at home, all they have to do is start building more settlements in Gaza or send Ariel Sharon to Al-Quds and the emotional Palestinians will come out onto the streets… Israel can then shoot them down like animals and shift the responsibility of the failure of peace process onto Palestinians too.
All is taken care of from there on by the ‘friends’ of Israel namely the US/West and their powerful and influential media. This has become all too familiar a pattern and recognized as such by UN Security Council save US. I feel reluctant to blame PLO/Arafat/Palestinian people, for their failure to counter this…. It’s like blaming an ant that got trampled by an elephant for being there in the first place.

“Israel had at least a mechanism to sideline Ariel Sharon and extremist Israeli stances if it wished. Infact it was said that the recent exit from Barak`s coalition of hardline religious parties presented the best chance for his government to push through any deal with the Palestinians. Perhaps Arafat, even with his `moral authority` doesnot know even now whether he can or cannot deliver on any promises he makes.”

What would be that mechanism? Elections?
It is also said that Barak’s coalition of hardline religious parties resented the peace process and was extremely unhappy with the promises made to Palestinians by Israeli government in the past and during Mr. Barak’s tenure. They were threatening to bring Mr. Barak down if he proceeded any further with the so-called peace process. So, failure to deliver on the promises has not been entirely a Palestinian problem… in my view, the responsibility of the failure of peace process rests largely with Israel.

“Both issues are complicated by other powerful `state` players claiming to represent their(Palestine/Israeli/Kashmiri) interests, who have their own agendas as well and are out of reach of any concerns of accountability and representation.”

Again, I would not comment on Kashmir (may be we can discuss Kashmir exclusively later – on second thought no… indian Pakistani lar lar kar lootan kabootar hoo jatay hain iss issue par :)), but as far as Israel is concerned, state apparatus with the help of “other powerful state players” also creates ‘complications’ where deemed necessary for “Israeli” as well as “US” interests. On Palestinian side, it’s the Hamas, which is of any significance in this regard.

fairdinkum #121
Just a gentle reminder that though `appropriate` sentiments may not have been expressed on this thread in response to questions raised, it may not be because such sentiments are absent.

Its a human tragedy whenever political problems are sought to be resolved through violence, whether by a powerful state apparatus or by non-state armed groups. But it doesnot necessarily follow that `giving in` to violence by either side is the most sustainable foundation for ending the human tragedy.

Coming to Palestine and Kashmir, without going into possible solutions or the justness of any party`s stand, IMO a lasting solution has been made difficult by the fact that the `democratic` or representative structures to reflect the various shades of political opinions of most Palentinians and Kashmiris are weak or lacking(or forcibly silenced with the threat of terrorist/state violence). This results in neither of these groups (if taken as single entities) being able to deliver workable, sustainable and largely representative positions in response to any event or initiative, thus frittering away any progress towards solutions. An added cost is that its difficult to comprehensively sideline extreme viewpoints held by a few even when a moderate majority of their population would wish to do so. Remaining honestly representative to the political views of a large and diverse population is a difficult problem almost by defination for violent movements, you`ll have to admit.

Israel had at least a mechanism to sideline Ariel Sharon and extremist Israeli stances if it wished. Infact it was said that the recent exit from Barak`s coalition of hardline religious parties presented the best chance for his government to push through any deal with the Palestinians. Perhaps Arafat, even with his `moral authority` doesnot know even now whether he can or cannot deliver on any promises he makes.

Both issues are complicated by other powerful `state` players claiming to represent their(Palestine/Israeli/Kashmiri) interests, who have their own agendas as well and are out of reach of any concerns of accountability and representation.

Sadhana

Sigalph235 #116
Thanks for you advice. I am glad to see that you have decided to move forward and away from your rhetoric about Muslims/Palestinians. However, your resentment against Muslims/Islam/Palestinians is quite obvious. It is not necessarily a bad/negative thing; at least you say what you feel in your heart and that’s fine. You express your views openly. I respect that. I hope we can develop mutual respect through learning, exploring and understanding each other’s views. I must say that you have raised some very vital points in your post.
Let us explore your articles of advice in ascending order.

“1. Condemn Arab atrocities against Palestinians as much as Israeli ones”

Sure thing…however, at appropriate times & at appropriate places. In my view, it is not wise for sympathizers of Palestinians to get distracted at this point in time. Israelis are beating the hell out of Palestinian men, women and children in clear violation of the Universal declaration of human rights and international law. They are engaged in shooting children without showing any regard to Security Council’s resolution condemning Israeli actions as “excessive use of force.” Israel needs to be condemned and Palestinians need our support… This is what we should focus on for the moment.
Let me give you example: In the wake of publication of HRC report, our point of focus should be the atrocities committed by Pakistan army against unarmed, innocent Bengali men, women and children. Not what some other party did or did not do to hurt Bengalis in the past. After the publication of HRC report, a distraction of any sort will be greatly welcomed by Pakistan army – and not by Bengalis or their sympathizers. Bengalis still, rightfully, feel the hurt and pain of atrocities committed by the “Eastern Command”. Imagine (and tell me how you would feel) if the bloodbath of East Pakistan was happening now, and Bengalis or their sympathizers were being told to condemn what Bengalis themselves have done to their own people in the past and/or condemn the “terrorist” acts of Mukti Bahinis against Pak Army and their civilian representatives, rather than condemn the Eastern Command.

Distraction is an age-old technique of oppressors. Whereas, we must condemn Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, and other Islamic countries for their human rights abuses, for their treatment of women and minorities, for their barbaric medieval structure of society, we should not get distracted from what’s happening to Palestinians ‘here and now’ because this, or because somebody else, besides Israelis, has also done the same thing to them in the past or that some splinter groups/fanatic sympathizers of Palestinians have committed acts of terrorism. Yes, by all means, we must condemn all terrorist acts, which, at best, achieve nothing more than a slap on the wrist of oppressors at the expense of innocent human lives. Terrorist acts provide a welcome distraction for oppressors by shifting the focus of world attention from the plight of the oppressed to these “heinous” “terrorist” acts. It is well known that sometimes oppressors themselves commit terrorism on behalf of the oppressed to distract world attention.


“2. Refrain from the exploiting your greed to bring Kashmir into this”

If in Kashmir or Dhaka or Bosnia or Kosova or Rawanda or on any other place on earth, atrocities are being committed against innocent men, women and children, we should not refrain from condemning such heinous acts. I feel comfortable with bringing Kashmir or former East Pakistan into the argument where appropriate. In my post to arun, the argument re kashimir was to illustrate a point. As I often use Bengali/Bangladeshi examples while talking to you. Unlike some others on this site, I look at the problem of Kashmir as a human tragedy.

“3. Understand the fact that the Jews are ordinary human beings not demons”

All human beings are worthy of respect and dignity. One should do their best to avoid making gross generalizations/blanket statements about any race/religion/ethnicity/nationality. I believe I pointed this out to you in response to your post #17? Please read my posts addressed to you carefully.

I get along quite well with Jewish people. One of my best friend is a Jewish lady who calls me a brother. Her mother, who is a survivor of Auschwitz, formed an organization in the 70’s to show solidarity with Palestinian women. It is mainly through her and her friends (all Jewish) that I know a lot more, than I would have, about the history of Zionist movement and why so many Jews (mostly survivors of European concentration camps, and their children) are/were against Zionism and the concept of the state of Israel.

Your statement:

“That said, as one contributor points out, the Arabs are on a bit of a shaky ground asking for implementation of UN resolutions. Had they accepted the partition resolution of 1948, none of this would have happened.”

Perhaps it wouldn’t have happened, and perhaps it was/is inevitable that carving out a country for European Jews in the middle of potentially hostile Arabs was a bad idea to start with. Nonetheless, for West, it was, at the time, the only permanent solution to Jewish “menace” in Europe, and perhaps west was only too happy to collaborate with Zionists to get rid of them – once and for all. What Hitler could not achieve by his efficient gas chambers, and SS mercenaries, Zionists did, and with relative ease I might add, by creating Israel.

As for the UN partition resolution of 1948, and various other points raised in arun gupta’s post, I will post a detailed response soon.

Your statement:

“Those of you who really oppose US policy in the Middle East and want to change it need a few additional pointers. The US will not abandon Israel as long as supporters of the Palestinian side

1. Condone, no matter in what bizarre terms, terrorism”

I think I have addressed this issue already.

“2. Ignore that Israel remains a democracy while Arabs remain medieval dictatorships”

I think the above has largely been addressed… however, a detailed discussion of Israeli democracy and Royal dynasties of Arabia is warranted here. However, due to time constraints, it would be better to leave this for later. I do concur with you that most Middle Eastern countries, or at least their governments, are living in medieval age. But then, world hasn’t seen a democracy that engages in such brutal acts as Israel does and gets away with it too.

“3. Fail to unequivocally accept the right of Israel to exist within secure and safe frontiers.”

The right of Israel to exist within secure, safe, agreed, properly demarcated frontiers has been acknowledged in principal by almost all Arab countries. As Bilal puts it, one should distinguish between the rhetoric of Arabs/Muslims (in anger and/or frustration)to annihilate Israel and the actual capacity to make it a reality. Israel refuses to observe the internationally agreed demarcation of frontiers, refuses to withdraw from occupied territories, and continues to expand its “settlements” in west bank and Gaza strip. Israel is also in contravention of all accords signed to date under the auspices of US.

Your statement:

“UNtil then, please get a very large cup of cappucino along with Asif NAqshbandi as y`all wait for the Mahdi to conquer Israel and all the other good stuff.”

Asif Naqshbandi is entitled to his views/beliefs. I, however, prefer not to probe into his views/beliefs. I am surprised, and disappointed to learn that you consider Bilal or myself to be in Asif Naqshbandi’s league.

Your comments about Mahdi, which for me is a very interesting concept/philosophy/symbolism in Islamic tradition/belief system, and for billions of others a cherished religious belief which provides hope for a better future, are as derogatory and demeaning, if not more, as Asif Naqshbandi’s comments. Such comments only expose one’s ignorance and lack of respect for religious/spiritual beliefs of fellow human beings.

Your comments remind me of a very famous comment by former Australian Prime Minister by the name of Mr. Bob Hawk. In mid 80’s Aborigines of Australia initiated legal proceedings to claim a piece of land in south Australia, which according to their religious beliefs was/is a sacred spiritual/religious site for them. The rednecks who still believe in white Australia policy, and regard Aborigines as sub-human, launched a campaign to undermine Aborigines and their claim by ridiculing Aboriginal spiritual beliefs as “pure superstition” and “medieval rubbish.” When asked about his opinion on this matter during a press conference, Bob Hawk said, “And who has seen the Christian God?”

fairdinkum #107, & other interested posters,

Fairdinkum, since this article has been scrolled over, I was going to call it quits. However, I had promised to come back, and you asked, rather emotionally (you may call it passion!), many rhetorical questions. Put it mildly, you did not like my response. So, let me try one more time.

It seems, you presumed certain lack of understandings on my part, namely:

1. How Israel came into being.

2. What part the West, esp. US, played in the whole affair.

3. The politics of oil in ME.

4. Perhaps my inherent dislike for Arabs/Muslims.

5. My failure to respect significance of Jerusalem

to Islam.

Granted, I am no expert on ME history, politics or interplay of ethno-religious factors. However, whatever rudimentary knowledge I possess, the basic theme in my post still stand on a firm ground. I have nothing against Arabs, Muslims, religion or ethnicity. It is only based on one thread: What is beneficial TODAY for the Palastinians? To me, it is to settle for peace, stable home, own self-rule and a hope for a decent living. As Sigalph mentioned, they could have avoided decades of misery only if they were prudent and pragmetic enough to accept the 1948 UN resolution. In today`s Dawn opinion page, a writer is echoing the same thoughts, Says he, if the Arabs had accepted the existence of Israel, the state of Palestine would have come into existence decades ago. This is why my outbursts re. Arabs despots and religious zealots. When two countries are trying to settle, why the religion has to be dragged into? Why it suddenly becomes a do or die issue for a billion? As the US News reported, the problem is so intertwined with religion(s) that it has become difficult for any compromise; and, it states, ultimately may be impossible to solve. So,I do understand the religious complexities involved. It further adds to my argument that emotions, religion, etc. aside, now probably is the best time to strike a deal. Otherwise it may reach a point of no return. In that case, the future Palestinian generations will have no respect for their Muslim sympathisers who live in their own protected, secure territories while preaching them the virtues of Islamiyat. What the Palestinians, under Arafat, are asking for is exclusive sovereignty over J. You know, and I know, even if its fair, in reality it is not going to happen, esp. after desecration of the Jacobs tomb. So what is wrong to stop posturing, agitating and, worse still, lose innocent lives for a cause that is far-fetched. As you know, the Jews were barred from praying at the Wailing Wall from 1948 to 1965(8?) when Jordan controlled the city. Jews will not forget that and be willing to give up J.

As to the machinations of the West, US etc., they going to do what is best in their interests. Besides there is no recourse and, hence, no use on keep harping on that. In ME and SE Asia it is an old cliche, just muddy the rationality to see things clearly. As long as there is oil in ME, there is going to be `oil politics & diplomacy`. When they run out of it, the rest of the world would not even bother whether they exist or not!

In your response to Arun, you mention that much maligned `K` word. Instead of replying to the argument at hand you are trying to put the writer down. Besides, what happens in `Rome`(read K......), has no bearing in the ME.

Kant.....

Remember, Sikhashahi was synonymous with terror and tyranny. Avitable, the Italian governor of Peshawar under Maharaja Ranjit Singh, used to hand out jagirs whose rent was payable in Afghan (i.e., Pathan) heads. If I remember correctly, he had a sliding scale: something like 1 male head = 1+n female heads = 1 + xn children`s heads (sorry, don`t remember the exact ratio, although male children were worth more than female ones). I believe even Clive would have drawn the line at this! Lest we say that this was a White Male European thing, don`t forget that mothers in Hazara (NWFP) used to quieten their crying children with, ``Hush, or Hari Singh Nalwa will hear you!``

Of course, the Moghuls treated the Sikhs not much better. And the Mahrattas had good reason to hate (and be hated by, in turn) the Moghuls. And so on, ad infinitum.

Was the Raj perfect? Of course not.

Did it have no glaring faults? Of course it did.
Could it have done much better with relatively minimal effort/cost. Of course.

Was it better than what came before it? Of course.

Are we better off because of it? I would say yes.

Have we shown that we are morally superior to it? Of course not.

Look at how brutally we treat our own people: the E. Pakistan civil war, Baluch insurgency, Sindh MRD agitation, Punjab/Khalistan insurgency, Kashmir insurgency, NEFA/Assam insurgency, the Sri Lankan civil war and the list is seemingly endless. Oh yeah, all this is the Gora Saab`s fault and if he didn`t directly cause it, it is the inevitable result of the harsh, repressive, dehumanizing, fill in a few more adjectives here, nature of the colonial state.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Arun:

Before we get too ecstatic about how great our pre-Raj institutions were, any anthropologist/sociologist will tell you that a key, if not the key, function, of most traditional institutions (e.g., village panchiyats) is to ensure that the dominant power and socio-economic position of the existing village elites is maintained. If some have managed to make the traditional system (or variants thereof, e.g., the AKRSP in Pakistan) work, its because you have an outside agency that acts to keep the exising village elites in line.

ylh #597 Now I see why you post at 90 mph - you cross-post!! (I just responded to this one on the other board). Would ataturk approve of that? (PS just kidding again, I need some comic relief from the serious stuff I am doing right now).

Re: Pat #543

That your impression- that most of the foot soldiers taking it in the face during the civil disobedience movement were of the `illiterate masses` variety- was instigated by Sir Attenborough is worrisome to me. I watched that movie too and fail to understand why you got that impression. That is unless of course you assumed that those guys lining up and taking a lathi on their heads must be doing so as a result of their illiteracy. Or perhaps you got misguided by their ragged homespuns and assumed that those who donned such an attire must be yokels. Either of the above two deductions (if you made them) do disservice to the `composition` of those masses.

My late Grandpa was one of the leading defense attorneys in the state. I still remember his disfigured (but very functional) arm that resulted from a compound fracture at a rally very similar to the one described in the movie. Even though he wore homespun until he died, I would have a really tough time classifying him as illiterate.

Thought this perspective would shed a bit of light.

Latif Chappu.

P.S. Commendations on your Bilalesque demeanor with YLH. It is a great tribute to your communication skills and subtle understanding of his apparently permanent sophomoric mental constitution that he hasn`t yet turned around and blasted you like he did poor Bilal. Having said that however..... just you wait. :)

re fairdinkum and bilal ahmad

Your genuine anguish at the plight of Palestinians would carry more weight if you keep the situation in perspective. Specially if you

1. Condemn Arab atrocities against Palestinians as much as Israeli ones

2. Refrain from the exploiting your greed to bring Kashmir into this

3. Understand the fact that the Jews are ordinary human beings not demons

That said, as one contributor points out, the Arabs are on a bit of a shaky ground asking for implementation of UN resolutions. Had they accepted the partition resolution of 1948, none of this would have happened.

Those of you who really oppose US policy in the Middle East and want to change it need a few additional pointers. The US will not abandon Israel as long as supporters of the Palestinian side

1. Condone, no matter in what bizarre terms, terrorism

2. Ignore that Israel remains a democracy while Arabs remain medieval dictatorships

3. Fail to unequivocally accept the right of Israel to exist within secure and safe frontiers.

UNtil then, please get a very large cup of cappucino along with Asif NAqshbandi as y`all wait for the Mahdi to conquer Israel and all the other good stuff.

Urstruly #114, ahmadb #107, Arun Gupta, and Kant

Dear Bilal and Urstruly,

Thanks for your kind words and encouragement.

The following is addressed to all participants in general:

The intent of my argument(s) was not to ultimately bring up the issue of Kashmir or to revisit the two-nation theory or to start India v Pakistan mudslinging match. Neither do I feel any discomfort/reluctance in bringing up these issues where appropriate. I do not concur with the approach/actions of Kashmiri militants, and I condemn the high-handed approach of Indian security forces in Kashmir and elsewhere. Although I have personally experienced love, respect, and a feeling of brotherhood amongst Muslims of the world, I still have some reservations about two-nation theory or the concept of Muslim people as one nation.

I find it extremely offensive, totally unacceptable even evil to legitimise/justify (directly or indirectly) killing/oppression (in any form), of innocent men, women and children and the weak anywhere in the world for any reason whatever. Be it Jews of Europe, Hindu yatris in Kashmir, minorities, women, and the weak in Pakistan, Kurds in Turkey, Iran and Iraq, Muslims in Bosnia/Kosova or Palestinians in “Israel.” They are human beings, and worthy of respect, and dignity.

I am a simple man, and I do not claim to have any in-depth understanding of the complexities and subtleties of world politics, history, international affairs, and the “games” that are being played by various economic/military powers around the globe. All I know is that it is incumbent upon me as a human being to stand up and be counted (in whatever capacity I can) and speak out against oppression. And if this road leads to Rome, or even hell, so be it. The passion, which, as urstruly point out, becomes apparent in my posts in such circumstances, is not something I am ashamed of.

I will address Mr. Arun Gupta’s post sometime later today.

RE: Fairdinkum # 108

Why is that, ultimately, all arguments lead to ``THAT`` conclusion-which you try your best to avoid?

All roads lead to Rome.

PS. Good arguments in #108; an argument without passion is a tree that fell in a jungle when no one was around.....

Perhaps fairdinkum and or others may want to comment on how the principles they would apply to Palestine or Kashmir should be used in the case of the Kurds of Turkey, Iraq and Iran.

-arun gupta

In reply to fairdinkum, #104, briefly -- I will try to amplify on points if requested.

1. I say that Jews were a people without a nation because they were liable to expulsion from European countries at any time during their history in Europe. Jews in many Middle Eastern countries, Ethopia, India etc. did not suffer from that liability. I did not mean these latter Jews.

2. Where Jews were not persecuted, they blended in. Sometimes so well that the people are barely distinguishable, and their claim to be lost Jews seems dubious.

The achievements of European Jews in the early 1900s was from a population that was blended in. Hitler disrupted the blending process.

2. No, I would not agree with Mr. Jinnah that Muslims of India are a separate nation, because there was no intention on treating them like the Jews of Europe. Muslims were and are to be equal citizens of India along with Hindus and everyone else.

3. No, I would not agree to the Kashmiris` claim of a separate homeland as long as Kashmiris are treated as equal citizens of India and simultaneously India remains a free country. I do not recognize the unqualified right of secession.

4. Yes, I know that Zionists planned migrations to Palestine. They even did it illegally, against British law. I don`t think Palestine was uninhabited; as I wrote, immigration created a large minority -- which implies there was another people there before.

5. On migration -- should I say that migration is in every case wrong ?

6. Likewise, when people are neighbours, is political separation between them desirable or wise ? Why couldn`t there have been a secular democratic state of Palestine instead of Israel and (future) Palestine ?

7. In any case, just as in South Asia, the decisions of 1947 cannot be undone, we have to live with the consequences, good and bad. I therefore did not see any need to discuss the issues of migration and self-determination/separation at length.

7. Israelis ignoring UN resolutions whose effect would not be to obliterate them is wrong. However, the very first one, namely peaceful partition of Palestine was not followed by one side; and the effect of that particular one tends to make subsequent resolutions meaningless.

8. In Kashmir, India did not lift the gun first. India has no reason to yield to a violent secessionist movement.

In my opinion, the only Kashmiri group that India should consent to talk with is that of Shabir Shah, who has been non-violent by principle. I will agree with you and anyone else that India has not treated him with justice.

-arun gupta

In response to mcgupta (Reply # 104)

Dear Arun:

Your statement: “I think far too many Palestinians, and Arabs in general, are not reconciled to the fact of Israel and still have the goal of somehow making it vanish.”

Comment: Is this just a guess? Or, is it based on any systematic study? Even if your statement has some merit (which I don’t think it does), should you distinguish between the rhetoric (in anger and/or frustration) and the actual capacity to make it a reality? Is there a comparison between the power of Israel (and its Western support base) and the combined power of the rest of the world, let alone the power of the Arabs?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

fairdinkum #107,

Yaar, no need to get naraaz! I have to rush now, but will get back and explain my stance on the subject. After that you may find mine not too far off yours.

Talk to ya latr........Kant

In response to Fairdinkum (Reply # 107)

Dear Fairdinkum:

A very penetrating set of question. My God, you write like me (perhaps better than me).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Arun Gupta #104

You say:

“Prior to Israel, the Jews were a people without a nation. ( Another people without a nation are the gypsies.)
The long history of persecution of Jews persuaded them that to defend themselves they would need a territory of their own, and so they claimed Palestine, even though they dispersed from there two thousand years ago”

Why do you say that Jews were a people without a nation? Weren’t they Germans? Austrians? British? Africans? Russians? Wasn’t/isn’t it their own choice to remain a distinct people based on their religious beliefs despite centuries of inhabitation in various countries? If you regard their claim of a nationhood based on their religious beliefs as valid, then would you agree with Mr. Jinnah that Indian Muslims were/are a separate entity from Hindus? And would you agree with the demand of Kashmiris for a separate homeland since they are Muslims? And they are not even talking about migrating from Europe to Kashmir to carve out a homeland for themselves? They have hundreds of years of continued presence in Kashmir…and they are majority, not a minority in that region.

While reading history of creation of Israel, didn’t you come across any historical account suggesting that Zionist movement carefully planned migration of Jews into Palestine? Did you know that Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians were not responsible for the persecution of Jews in Europe? And while philosophizing on the 2000 year old “historical” claim of Jews, and West’s decision to settle the Jewish problem in Europe, once and for all, by settling them in Palestine (in accordance with the whishes of Zionists), do you think that Palestine was uninhabited?
There are several UN resolutions, which Israelis have disregarded with sheer arrogance. Is this ok since they are militarily more powerful than Palestinians?

You say:

“If justice is to live in peace, security, with prosperity, with political freedom, with a voice in the conduct of one`s own affairs, with freedom of religion, culture, etc., then I believe that the Palestinians can achieve it only by non-violent means. But the original UN plan is out of reach.”

Why hasn’t India adopted a non-violent approach to resolving the issue of Kashmir? Is it because violent approach in this case is not likely to hurt “India” as much as it is hurting “Kashmiris”? If it were the other way around, only then a non-violent approach would have been appropriate?

Knowing your keen interest in history, I am indeed perplexed to see that while the struggle of Palestinians is still on, and history is in the making, you have already written the final chapter of your history book on this matter and concluded.

Kant Patel #106

Dear Kant,

I am indeed perplexed by your post. I usually find your posts to be well thought out and well reasoned.

You say:

“Palestenians have unfortunately ended up as pawns to play with in the hands of self-serving despots and the mis-guided religious zealots. If they had, instead, settled with the Israelis long time ago, the current, as well as the future, generations would have been a much better lot than most of their chest-beating bretheren. Besides, how could the Middle Eastern sheikhs, kings and dictators vouch for the rights for others when they are loath to grant the same to their own citizenery! Is it worth ruining for Jerusalem, when one could really settle for a joint or bilateral governance of the city?”


Have you ever reflected on why Palestinians have ended up as pawns to play within the hand of self-serving despots? Do you think if they had a country of their own, they would still be pawns? Do you think because Arab sheikhs have no regard for human rights, nobody should raise voice for the oppressed Palestinians? Do you really understand the significance of Jerusalem for Palestinians/Muslims? Do you think religious beliefs/spiritual attachment of Muslim people is not worth giving any weight to while deciding the fate of Jerusalem? What do you know about the US policies vis-à-vis oil rich Middle East? Do you think US/west has played any part in keeping the Royal dynasties of various Arab countries in power? Have you ever reflected on why wouldn’t US/West impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia or Jordan or Egypt or even Turkey for gross human rights abuses?

You say:

“Does the sovereignty over it [Jerusalem] offers a pancea for all the Palestenian ills and misery? What Palestenians need right now are some leaders who can think rationally, rather than emotively, and guide people to arrive at compromises and a path to liberation from this wretched life of misery, wandering around, and begging help from the hypocratic and self-serving religious zealots.”


Perhaps sovereignty over Jerusalem won’t solve all the ills and miseries of the oppressed Palestinians. However, don’t you think it’s rather arrogant to lecture Palestinians on what is right/better for them? Isn’t it THEIR basic human right to decide their own fate? Do you feel any empathy towards homeless, oppressed people of Palestine? Do you think it is ok to kill Palestinian women, men and children because they are Arabs/Muslims? Do you think Arabs/Muslims are generally bad people and deserve to be killed?

If you were given a mandate to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, what would you propose which would be acceptable to all parties?

Sigalph235 #100

Wasn`t it Black September? The Palestenians still hate Zia for the tortures. The whole Arab, as well as the Muslim, world were conspicuously mum. As a matter of fact, a lot of Pakistani army personnel got very well off from this `phoren` operations.

I tend to agree with you that the Palestenians have unfortunately ended up as pawns to play with in the hands of self-serving despots and the mis-guided religious zealots. If they had, instead, settled with the Israelis long time ago, the current, as well as the future, generations would have been a much better lot than most of their chest-beating bretheren. Besides, how could the Middle Eastern sheikhs, kings and dictators vouch for the rights for others when they are loath to grant the same to their own citizenery! Is it worth ruining for Jerusalem, when one could really settle for a joint or bilateral governance of the city? Does the sovereignity over it offers a pancea for all the Palestenian ills and misery? What Palestenians need right now are some leaders who can think rationally, rather than emotively, and guide people to arrive at compromises and a path to liberation from this wretched life of misery, wandering around,and begging help from the hypocratic and self-serving religious zealots. No Asif, you can wallow in your prophecies, this people have suffered enough and have no patience for the `great arrival`. Reliving the past will not buy the future!

Kant......

In reply to krashid : ``Jews control the economy``, etc. is nonsense; and does comprise anti-semitism.

Regarding their religious attitudes -- I believe the orthodox Jews can compete with orthodox Muslims in their intolerant fundamentalism. But the modernists are a very different people.

-arun gupta

What one would consider justice for the Palestinians is dependent on one`s view of history.

Prior to Israel, the Jews were a people without a nation. ( Another people without a nation are the gypsies.)

The long history of persecution of Jews persuaded them that to defend themselves they would need a territory of their own, and so they claimed Palestine, even though they dispersed from there two thousand years ago.

Jewish immigration into Palestine, which then was under British rule, created a large minority of Jews among the previously resident Palestinians. No solution was found for how these people could live together politically, and the United Nations recommended and voted for a partition of Palestine, into two states. A map of the UN plan is at

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/single_image/0,5716,7241+asmbly%5Fid,00.html

Compare this to what the Palestinians have today, after so many years of suffering and struggle, e.g., see ``Maps`` under

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/mideast/

The discussion of how this all came about must necessarily include a philosophical discussion of minority rights, partition etc. -- problems that South Asia has had to confront as well. We all know how difficult these can be.

Given the situation after 1947, the wars subsequent to the UN partition plan cost the Palestinians dearly. Apportioning blame for those wars is beyond this writer. The net result was that Israel was able to expand, and a large Palestinian refugee population was created.

A dispassionate look at history would show that every act of violence has hurt the Palestinians more than it has helped. One can only conclude (also see Mazdak in Dawn) that a non-violent struggle would have achieved better results.

Of course, a non-violent movement for the rights of Palestinians would implicitly also recognize that equivalent rights exist for the Israelis. ( One cannot have a non-violent struggle to obliterate someone else. ) I think far too many Palestinians, and Arabs in general, are not reconciled to the fact of Israel and still have the goal of somehow making it vanish. Therefore, the non-violent path has never been seriously examined. Also, the current peace process cannot succeed.

If justice is to live in peace, security, with prosperity, with political freedom, with a voice in the conduct of one`s own affairs, with freedom of religion, culture, etc., then I believe that the Palestinians can achieve it only by non-violent means. But the original UN plan is out of reach.

-arun gupta

Lebanese civil war history....

http://www.techfak.uni-kiel.de/

In response to sigalph235 (Reply # 100)

Dear Sigalph235:

If the Jews (I am not talking about the Israeli citizens only) were/are victims of anti-semitism (which they were/are), they themselves be more sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. At present, the question is not of either/or. Israel is a reality (despite its long and ugly modern history). Krashid is entitled to his opinions, and his opinion shouldn’t really affect your viewpoint and rhetoric.

The Arab regimes have often played games that have been detrimental to the cause of the Palestinian people. I don’t claim to know much about modern Middle Eastern history, I am only a casual reader (perhaps like most other Chowkwallas). I never remain mum about any act of transgression as long as I understand it adequately. I, for example, have a bad taste in my mouth about the mercenary role of Pakistan Army in both within and outside Pakistan.

Your statement: “. . . genuine friends of Palestinians must ask themselves, after fifty years of a failed violent antisemitic, anti-Western policy, are they any better off? How long are the Palestinian people going to be held hostage to the capricious whims of lazy Oriental scholars and corrupt Arab dictators?”

Comment: Yes, you have put your finger on the right spot (though I am not sure if I understand your viewpoint adequately). Who are the lazy Oriental scholars? Edward Said? Who are the corrupt Arab dictators? Who is formulating and implementing anti-Western policies? What do you propose to change the situation? Could you propose a solution that will be lasting and honorably valued by all parties in the long run?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. Are you aware of Tikkun (a research journal published by some radical-liberal Israelis)?

Siagalph #235

What is anti-semitic in my post.

Are fact presentation mostly from European sources anti-semitism. Does condemning the killings of hundreds of Palestinian by the whole world anti-semitic.

I have presented the argument as they exist.

And most of my views on jewish thinking is taken directly from Zionist books themselves and not anti-zionist as you are trying to proove.

If you don`t know the difference between a jew and gentile and their place in jewish religion and thinking you should read it to know the world view of them.

Also the argument that jews have been massacred and left only the intelligent jews is also from books by jewish writers.

Also how can you condemn Pakistani mercenaries when they at least give back your land and not call jewish the same, when they have captured also the land of palestinian people.

Also you have to differentiate the difference between fighting between Khalida Zia and Hasina Sheikh and say for example India and Bangladesh. Do you agree both are bad but of a different nature.

And criteria of being authentic is not to take an UNPOPULAR STAND. But the consistency of thought by which you judge different phenomenon whether it is popular or unpopular.

re bilal ahmed`s

``What I don’t share with you is your indirect legitimization of the injustices against the poor, innocent, and oppressed Palestinians.``

There you go again! Just because one supports the right of Israel to exist within secure frontiers and condemns the anti-semitism espoused by the types of krashid does not mean legitimization of oppressio against the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians have had a rough a deal through history. But your voices on behalf of the Palestinian people (as opposed to the PLO brass) will carry more weight when the oppressions of other Arabs towards their Palestinian `bretheren` is called to task as well. Since you claim to know so much about Middle Eastern history, how is it that you are so mum about the massacre of Palectinians during Black December in 1970 by the Jordanians(helped by Pakistanis, I might add). Or how about the butchery at Tripoli, Lebanon in 1983 by the Syrians against the Palestinians? Or maybe the behaviour displayed by the Kuwaitis against the Palestinians in the aftermath of the liberation of Kuwait. See, if oppression by Israelis is bad then oppression by Arabs is too. It would appear that the plight of Palestinians is more of an item of chessboard politics than genuine concern for a lot of Arab thugs like Saddam and Gaddafi.

I am under no illusion that what I say is extremely unpopular and politically blasphemous in Arab/Muslim circles. But then genuine friends of Palestinians must ask themselves, after fifty years of a failed violent anti-semitic, anti-Western policy, are they any better off? How long are the Palestinian people going to be held hostage to the capricious whims of lazy Oriental scholars and corrupt Arab dictators?

Sigalph and Scout,

You ae right that currently the Zionist Stateis too powerful for any of the Muslim states; primarily asit has nukes and they dont (excep pakistan); but why?

the reason is that the muslims are not united--when we become united insha Allah, THEN the days for the illegitimate zionist state created by the British and French with the Balfour and Sykes-Picot treaties--and now protected by the USAas its arm in the Middle East WILL vanish.

It might not happen in our lifetimes but it definitely happen. The Mahdi will appear. And when hedoes--bye, bye Israel.

Okay, so they will fight if their existence is threatened? They will probably use nukes. In a matter of nukes some middle eastern countries will get nukes too, eg iran. Then what? There are over a billion muslims in the world and only about 5 million odd Zionists in Israel--so, will they be willing to play the nuke card with such odds?

This is all immaterial as Allah`s Messenger alayhi salaato salaam has told us that Islam will one day rule the world again. And the whole world can be wrong but Allah`s Messenger can NEVER NEVER be wrong.

Also, remember that it took the Muslims 88 years before Jerusalem was liberated from the Crusaders under Sultan SalaH ud Deen. So what is a mere 50 odd years. We can wait for a 1000 years patiently, but one day, it is promised that Al Quds will be ours...:-)

And as for the Jews, they can live their peacefully as ahl ul dhimma, like they did in the past. So dont give me these words about antisemitism...

the israelis can win a 100 wars but the muslims only have to win ONE and its all over.

It might happen before the Mahdi comes (I doubt it) but when he alayhi salaam appears...

Why do most palestinians inside Occupied Palestine

support HAMAS and not the peace treaty? Ask yourself...

Why did the indo-paks want freedom from the british?

I am afraid that all the points in post #93 of Sigalph235 are valid. We can use rhetoric to deny them but they are in our face.

In response to sigalph235

Dear sigalph235:

Politicians often say thing to suit particular times, events, goals, etc. Specific statements need to be seen and assessed in light a longer time frame. I don’t know how much you know about the history of the state of Israel. I suspect that you do understand the role of the US in the creation and the expanded reproduction of the state of Israel. Like you, I am also appreciative of some aspects of the Israeli people. What I don’t share with you is your indirect legitimization of the injustices against the poor, innocent, and oppressed Palestinians.

Your comment regarding cultural imperialism is well taken. Yet, the beneficiaries of this form of imperialism are not really the British. Britain is no more hegemonic and Israel is only 52 year old.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Siagalp #87

By all account this is true.

Intifada as you know had no relation with Yasser Arafat and was an indigenous movement in Palestine. Israel was putting lot of its resources towards fighting it. To counter it they brought, Yasser Arafat for a peace deal. None of the palestinian I talked is in favor of this deal, because it is humiliating. Mind that this land belongedd to Palestinians a while back. (How did Yasser Arafat became a leader from a terrorist of West in one day). In the current situation, Clinton has openly said to move its Capital to Jerusalem, while even according to that humiliating document called peace deal this matter of jerusalem is unresolved. Do you think Clinton is a neutral umpire. All the American officials were first in criticizing the death of two Israeli soldiers, while they were careful not to utter a single word in the killing of palestinians by Israeli Soldiers. (The whole world except America has condemned it)

Do you think Palestinians would think it as neutrality or one-sided, partial negotiator and broker.

Scout #89

I would disagree with the main thrust of your post.

There is no doubt, that jews have tried to consolidate their foundations in economics out of fear of persecution done to them throughout the centuries, hopefully to prevent it again.

But their reason is not religious but psedo-religious. First they think themselves as choosen people of God, which is against the equality of human race. For the same reason, they think other people inferior. Their behaviour is determined by this. Where ever they stay, they try to subjugate the population by their control of economy, that produces a backlash against them. It was same in Russia, same in Germany in last couple of centuries.

Moreover, since they divide humans into Jews and gentile. For themselves jews create some standards, but for gentiles they think that they are below human dignity. Also because of this thinking, morality does not come into consideration, when they think of gentiles. You can see which business jews are in and how they make money by corrupting the society. Hollywood is jewish controlled. And so is the media. Also all their actions are in legal framework, even massacre is done legally. Prime example is Iraq, where millions of people of an oil rich country died, legally. (Vis-a-vis Israel against whom none of the UN Resolutions are binding). Just see Government in Norway could not take oath, people having anti-semitic sentiments are not tolerated (Anti-Muslim, Anti-hindu and anti-Christian sentiments are tolerated all over the world)

I can go on and on. But to say in short. I would rather die a pauper and happy than believing in that kind of ideology and be sadist.

It does not mean that I am not in favor of upliftment. We should realize that education and economic activity is not only not against religion, but is pro-religion. During Hajj one of the important ritual, it is allowed to do business and Hajj together. Also In Koran and Hadith importance of education is stressed repeatedly. In Koran not only natural phenomenon are repeatedly pointed out, but it is stressed to think on those phenomenon. (What can we do that our Ulema to keep control on people restrict education to religious education only).

ahmadb #92,

As long as the US wants to keep Israel as it`s favorite mistress, to have and to hold, from a distance, Israel will stay.

God`s justice is not for mortal men.

re bahmad

Actually I should credit the late Mr Suhrawardy and the late King Hassan II for the remark about Israel being here to stay. Muslim leaders have been predicting the demise of Israel for the last fifty years. Hasn`t happened. They have blamed the durability of the little giant on the supposed largesse of the US. But Israel is still here after fighting five wars against enemies far superior in numbers and equipment every time.

Look closely at Israel my friend. It has a resolute character and a hardy people. They will stay because they will fight. They will fight because else they will be thrown into the sea. These folks went through one exile and survived thousands of years of prejudice, overt and covert, and yet managed to keep the semblance of peoplehood. When the Poles, Nazis, and Communists couldn`t destroy them, it is unlikely that Arabs will.

As for the British Empire, are you sure it is gone? What language are we using on this forum? What is the lingua franca of the world including the former Russian and French colonies? Who`s judicial and criminal justice system do the Indians, Pakistanis, and Australians follow? What is the game that 22 players in white play for six days?The point is that the British Empire is perpetually alive and well in its cultural aspect.

In response to sigalph (Reply #: 90)

Dear sigalph235:

Your statement: ``Israel has come to stay.``

Comment: How could you be so sure? Remember the British once rule the globe and they were most certainly (according to some, including them)going to stay in India.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re: asif naqsha

You go boy. Don`t get discouraged, it is time for the mother of all Jihads. All muslims from the world should unite and fight the evil Israelis and other assorted kafirs who support them. Once that mother of all Jihad armies has wiped out Israel, it can head to the shores of America, India, and then Russia.

re asif naqshbandi #88

Israel has come to stay. With peace, without peace, in spite of peace, she will stay. She will stay with an undivided Jerusalem as her ancient and eternal capital. The Arabs have tried five wars and numerous cowardly attacks on Israeli civillians. Nothing has worked. When Hitler with 6 million couldn`t detroy those people what makes you think that some future messiah will(that is if he even wants too)?

In the process of survival, Israel will one day visit sure and swift retribution on the likes of Hamas. If Entebbe and Tunis are any indication, Hamas will get its due too.

As for people like you who have so brazenly twisted religious texts to create a God who is anti-semitic, well join the club of many a Protestant fundamentalist groups. At least Adolf Eichmann never claimed a divine mission to liquidate Jews. You guys do.

Asif #88,

It ain`t gonna happen dude. What goes on in the world is plain and simple: the powerful step on the weak. And in this day and age, the weak are Muslims. Every Muslim country is suffering in one way or another. And when countries suffer, the high and mighty West disappears. When the damage is being done, there`s no one. When the damage is done, the United States appears with it`s military broom to clean things up.

Your hadiths, your jihads will not work. Drop them and take example from the Jews. Despite being persecuted and killed off, today they are indirectly ruling the West. How? Because they kept their religion safely and respectfully locked behind their personal homes while building a solid foundation for themselves through education and business.

I agree that what`s happening in Israel is wrong. But we can only watch. We don`t have the power to do anything beyond words. Why? Because people like you and other fundamentalists are too busy defining Islam, butchering it, and feeding misconceptions to your peers.

You have a hand in creating this problem. Now bear it, however painful it may be.

786

I cannot believe that people here actually believe in the so-called ``peace process``; it is the biggest sham in history and almost a total climb down from Yasser Arafat. What has he achieved so far?

There is only one way to get rid of this problem--either destroy or be destroyed. Admitedly the Ummah is not yet in a position to take on Israel directly (as it is backed by USA) but by adopting the methodology of Hamas and Hizbullah the Muslims can at least bleed Israel dry via another Intifada until the time in the future, and Allah knows how far or near, when the Mahdi alayhi salaam appears to rid the world of this irritant cancer in the heart of the Muslim World for ever.

It is time to show solidarity with the martyrs of Palestine not discuss ``peace``. The british journalist Robert Fisk of the Independent Newspaper (www.independent.co.uk) tells the unbiased truth of the situation and all those interested in the brutal realities of the Zionist occupation and the sham of the so-called ``peace process`` should read his columns.

I am wondering--cannot Musharraf offer the Palestinians any help--if the ISI can fund the mujahideen in Kashmir, why not those in Palestine (via Jordan - or Iran/Lebanon/Syria) with weapons like rocket launchers..? I tell you, the day Pakistan gets an Islamic government, the liberation of Al Quds al Shareef will not be far away, insha Allah...

Meanwhile all the Muslim countries should totally boycott the Zionist state and the Saudis should use the oil weapon against the Masters of Israel, the US of A...

Also visit www.hamas.org

It is important to remember that Palestine is not only an Arab problem, it is an Islamic problem and until the leaders realise this it cannot be solved.

We must not get disheartened; we must remember the glorious battle of Al-Khaybar and let it inspire us and we should remind the Zionists of the fate of the Bani Qurayza afterwards..

I end with a hadith:



Book 041, Number 6985: [SahiH Muslim]

Abu Huraira reported Allah`s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The

last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the

Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a

tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew

behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree

of the Jews.

re krashid

your point

`6- America is a broker and umpire, but is partial and one sided.`

If I recollect accurately, the PLO and Israel BOTH agreed for the US to be the broker. If both parties didn`t think the umpire would be neutral, they should`ve gotten a more neutral refree like, say, SYria or Iraq.

The larger context of the problem is, of course, that since time immemorial the radical Arabs(as opposed to the reasonable ones) have envied the relationship between Israel and the USA. They cannot understand it and, hence, make mistake after mistake in trying to fracture it with stupid comments. The United States, people and government alike, consider Israel a friend and a kindred democracy in a sea of, well, rather medieval dictatorships. As long as that image does not change, Israel will remain on the minds and hearts of America. No amount of criticism towards the media or the bigotry towards ``Jewish`` influences is going to change that. If Arabs and Palestinians want to garner the friendship and respect of the US at par with Israel, they have to do the hard thing: shape up, civilise, and enter the community of tolerant, democratic societies where blowing up airplanes and ships is universally condemned and anti-semitism looked down upon.

An interesting article on the Israel/Palestine Conflict. Role of US in Fiasco. Thought i should share with the learned people. here..

Asim

Stop the violence or we stop the aid



By Greg Jerrett

Iowa State Daily

Friday, October 13, 2000.

The current situation in Israel has been going on for decades and will

likely go on for decades more. While the violence in the Middle East is

shocking, what is more shocking is the typical lack of concern most

Americans show for it.

Americans are more concerned with how the violence will affect the stock

market than how many Palestinians are murdered.

Two things happened yesterday to make an already complex situation more

arcane for America.

Two Israeli soldiers took a wrong turn into Ramallah, West Bank, and after

failing to find refuge with Palestinian police, were killed by a mob while

the cameras captured every gruesome detail of the lynching.

Israel, of course, retaliated by brutally murdering a whole host of

Palestinians, bombing radio stations and an ambulance while the cameras

captured every brutal detail of the slaughter.

During a routine refueling in a Yemeni harbor on the Arabian Peninsula, a

40-foot hole was ripped in the side of the USS Cole in what the major news

networks are calling an act of terrorism.

According to Associated Press, President Clinton urged the Israelis and

Palestinians to set aside their hatred, return to the peace talks and “stop

the bloodshed, to restore calm.”

Meanwhile, the other side of his mouth was saying those responsible for

“what now appears to be an act of terrorism” against our Navy will be found

and held accountable.

In a CNN interview, Senator John McCain spoke with barely-contained anger as

he gave his word that the craven cowards who attacked a defenseless American

warship would pay dearly for this affront.

Americans find it so easy to counsel patience to countries they view as

inferior. We tell the Palestinians and Israelis to not act emotionally under

circumstances we cannot begin to fathom.

What is worse, is we tend to lay everything at the feet of the Palestinians

while forgiving our “friend” Israel.

Well, our friend Israel is a nasty piece of work, and it is high time

Americans realized that.

Our friend Israel is like that friend who hangs up on us for calling at

midnight then calls back at 3 a.m. for a favor. Israel is the kind of friend

who takes and takes aid from us, talks smack about us behind our backs, then

blows off our birthday every year.

Our relationship with Israel defies analogy, but this one works: with

friends like Israel, who needs Nazis?

Our relationship began as many relationships do out of pity. We felt sorry

for the atrocities of World War II, who wouldn’t?

Jews around the world were looking for their own state to ensure that no one

would ever brutalize their people again the way the Germans did in that war.

We were eager to help. We pushed for an independent Jewish state in

Palestine with the help of the British and without considering the people

who were living there.

No American worth his salt would tolerate another country carving up his

land to make room for what amounted to foreigners, yet we expected the

Palestinians to take it in stride. More than likely we just didn’t care.

And we still don’t care.

Most people think of Palestinians and terrorists as interchangeable. Yasser

Arafat isn’t accorded the respect of a world leader in the minds of the

average American.

Americans are stuck in a pathetic 1970s mindframe when it comes to world

politics and most don’t want to change.

Well, it is time for a change. When Israelis murder Palestinians, let’s not

call it a “limited action.” Let’s not act all shocked and horrified when two

soldiers are killed in a war their country started.

Blood cries out for blood, this cannot be denied. We call for the heads of

those who attack us, and are we not civilized?

We can expect no less from our friends in Palestine.

Perhaps the United States should lead by example in this case. Rather than

assuming what happened to the Cole was terrorism, let’s give the people of

Yemen the benefit of the doubt — at least until the forensic evidence comes

in.

And when it does, we should set aside bloodshed and thoughts of revenge to

show our angry friends in Israel and Palestine just how easy it is to

overcome hatred in the name of peace, even if that peace means taking one

for the team.

But we can no longer expect Palestinians to lay down and die like good,

little victims when they are being slaughtered by the Israelis.

Americans can no longer afford to be so naive as to wonder why we are hated

in parts of the Middle East. We got on the wrong side, and we stayed on the

wrong side.

Our friends inIsrael are killing rock-wielding Palestinians with our

weapons. We gave them the choppers and the missiles, and it is time for us

to tell Israel enough is enough. Stop the violence, or we stop the aid.

Maybe when Israelis are fighting rocks with rocks, peace will suddenly seem

like a good idea to them

We are in USA, where the propaganda for Israel is superior. Even then, sometimes to show their FAIRNESS few things which come to light are.

1- The INNOCENT ISRAELI soldiers were killed. (comment or laugh).

2- The peace process is one sided where they are just harping on peace process and not the content of peace accord.

3- Like a Palestinian said that Jews are free to go to their homeland, while an American Palestinian is not allowed to return to Palestine.

4- Almost all the nation of the world were unanimous in condemning Israel for their atrocities except America.

5- The Palestinians have already yielded enough in peace process and Arafat cannot face his people if he yields further.

All the Arab countries who had diplomatic relations with Israel have recalled their ambassador from Israel.

6- America is a broker and umpire, but is partial and one sided.

Re fairdinkum

I am re-gurgitating and memorizing and what are you doing? Churning out a brand new PhD thesis full of the most original ideas in the world? Pal, this cuts both ways!

Scout:

Remember the images of that child?

A sharp amd perceptive piece reading between the lines of the media coverage and analyising and lamenting from his view point. (This is the same media that tires not of using `moderate` before most mention of news from Saudi Amreeka, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait and other tailer waggers.)

Western media`s biases

Dr Muzaffar Iqbal

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/oct2000-daily/13-10-2000/oped/o1.htm

love,

t

RE: krashid# 78

Dear Rashid!

A very good analysis of the situation and you have drawn the right conclusions. I picked the following up from a Kashmiri site:

``The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people``

Martin Luther King - Nobel Prize Winner

re fairdinkum #80:

Forgive sigalph235. Remember we are all ignorant--only about different things.

later

-sac

P.S: I gathered you`ve moved to Australia. Hope things are going well.

sigalph235 #79

Thanks for your penetrating analysis, and your enlightening thoughts. I admire your memory, and your ability to regurgitate the arguments you have memorized.

The inability of Arafat to control his mobs only goes to show how wrong Clinton and his cronies have been in theoretically agreeing to a future PLO state. These people couldn`t run a barnyard, let alone a state. One cannot but blame Israel for falling for the Clinton promises of PLO good behaviour. These thugs cannot even control their own `police` and they want us to believe that they can protect Al-Quds?

They way out of the violence is simple though not easy: the Israeli government, with or without a Clinton nod, should make it very clear that it will hold the PLO brass accountable for every second of violence. If nothing else works, it is time to establish the peace by re-establishing Israeli administration in the PLO areas. Then the ISraelis can negotiate with honest partners i.e. Jordan etc.

Jewish are the chosen people of God. And although they have been in Diaspora, for milleniums, but their books locate Israel as their motherland where they migrated from Pharoah`s wrath and established their first kingdom.

And this land is in their religious psyche. In the world inspite of all setbacks, due to their superior intelligence and due to repeated genocide eliminating the weaker part of their community, they have proven themselves to be the most intelligent and sharp people. In the late nineteenth century, I think they started a movement of Zionism for the creation of Israel. The money was funded by many including Rothschild, one of the most influential person and banker in England. With his connection with rulers, he was able to convince the British for the creation of Israel. The Zionist fought valiantly for the creation of their homeland, mainly dispossessing farmers from their land. They either paid money for land or forcibly took hold of it. Ultimately they were able to form a nation, I think in 1948 (or 49). (This is a jewish version of events).

On the palestinian side. They were dispossessed of their land, by force or by money and in some instances killed by foreign settlers. They were living in that land for generations which was captured by Jewish settlers mostly from east European Origin.

Another point from Europeans. Since they felt ashamed of their atrocities to jews, they helped in the creation of Israel. There is another version, that because of mischievious nature of jews, they did not want to settle them in Europe, so the creation of Israel.

Whichever version is true. In current times how can anyone justify the grabbing of land by European (mostly) settlers, dispossessing the local people of their land and their Government.

If might is right. Then only might can prevail. And so the need for resistance movements. It does not need a lot of reading to see around us, that to fight the usurper, resistance movement is the only way. It can take many forms, like education, economic upliftment or armed struggle. But one thing is clear, not to yield to usurpers in whatever pretext, whether it is the superpower or a satellite of a superpower.