Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred

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PS. QUESTION NO. 3

When will you grow up?

sigalph235

Happy Dilwali to you!!

Read the following carefully and answer the questions.

I know you are in the habit of quoting statements out of context.. example, Suharwadi’s statement re Palestine. Also you seem to have a short concentration span. But for once, try reading the whole of the following statement:

“Perhaps you were not expecting to be taken on by anybody on this site for your bigotry....be careful about what you say next time..”

QUESTION NO. 1

Now tell me, how does a sincere advice asking you to carefully think about your comments before you post them constitute a threat?

An example of your less than prudent behaviour, on which my advice was/is based, is your following post:

sigalph235 Post #17

“A Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza is a nightmare. These ex-terrorists can hardly run the little piece they are lording over in Gaza right now. Heck, they treat dissent with a brutality which is comparable to the worst Israeli actions. Give them a bigger piece and they will become the slave-masters of the rest of the Arab population there. Give them Jerusalem and they`ll probably blow it up like they use to regularly blow up airplanes.

Arabs and their lackey poorer Muslim nations will need to heed the the late HS Suhrawardy`s statement: Israel has come to stay. And she intends to stay with her historic capital of Jerusalem. Once the rabid emotionalism is settled thw world will realise what a mistake it is turn Jerusalem over to the PLO.”

When you make such inflammatory comments, be ready for an appropriate response. Don’t expect that everybody on this site will overlook your comments because we (Pakistanis) have a soft spot for Bengalis.

Your childish statement:

“I come from a people who gave 3 million lives for freedom in a heartbeat. Your threats will not deter me from speaking out. “

which you posted while responding to my sincere advice asking you to think before you speak, and look before you jump, I made the following remarks:

“And I am sure if those brave and generous Bengali ``Muslims`` found out about your bigotry, they won`t mind adding another one to 3 million :)”

QUESTION NO. 2

How does a statement with clear indication that a pun was intended (do you know what a smiley face means? It means pun intended) becomes a death treat?

Your attitude has forced me to wonder whether or not Mukti Bahinis had lied when claiming persecution on the grounds of Pak army’s high handed approach?….like you have here…. Also, I wonder if Pakistan Army’s allegations against Mukti Bahini had some basis?

re fairdinkum

Don`t be afraid of the Qur`an; only the Devil is. The word `shame` does not look good coming from someone like you whose manners and language bespeak a degradation of mind and a destitution of soul. There is an old saying in Bengali that translates into `tools don`t make a carpenter`. Obviously, even having access to the best technology of communication/interaction, you have yet to learn the most common precepts of civility. Calling me hypocrite, lowlife, etc etc or threatning me with murder reflects far less on me and much more on you and your background. It is people like you who fueled the disintegration of Pakistan. Keep on, my friend! There are three more provinces to go! And give me a call when all your nonsense and Arafat`s terror has established a Palestinian state.

PS. Now that your hypocricy is exposed, all of sudden you have started quoting Quranic verses. Man, do you have any shame at all?

And if you have decided to turn to Quran(be it for deceiving the ``believers``), please mend your ways. Read all the verses about hypocrites. You will get a fair idea about where you`ll finally rest unless you get your act together!

sigalph235 #130

My poor persecuted hypocrite,

issay kehtay hain ungli kata kar shaheedoon main shamil hoonay ki kooshish :) bulkay khud hi ungli kaat kar shaheedoon main shamil hoonay ki kooshish :)

Settle down mate! Your cheap rhetoric, bigotry, and hypocrisy only makes you a low life! Not a spokesperson for humanity or a candidate for martyrdom :) Rest assured, nobody is interested in making a martyr out of a low life like you. Your biggest achievement is your exposure as a hypocrite. For that you should be thankful to me, instead of claiming persecution and complaining :)

I have given you a chance to dig yourself out and reassess your misguided ways in light of your hypocritical stance against Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians.

And don’t ever identify yourself with oppressed Bengalis of erstwhile East Pakistan… You are a hypocrite, and that’s your nationality, race, and religion!

The only consistency I see in you is your failure to answer any of the questions of any interactor who opposed your hypocritical stance on this board. You may have been spared in the past for your bigotry, and cheap rhetoric as most of us (Pakistanis) have a soft spot for Bengalis for what our government/army did to them. And despite your claim ``I come from a people you gave 3 million lives for freedom in a heartbeat``, it is clear that you are not a Bengali, you are just a hypocrite!

re fairdinkum # 129

`And I am sure if those brave and generous Bengali ``Muslims`` found out about your bigotry, they won`t mind adding another one to 3 million :)`

This is not the first time my life has been threatened. I have been writing for three years in various newspapers aganist the Hasina Wajed regime and, consequently, heard rants and raves from Awami Leaguers. But I never thought that even in the heat of argument you`d stoop so low as to threaten murder. Not that I worry too much. I have always believed that life and death are but Gifts of the Almighty. When my time comes, so be it. After all, it is well said in the Qur`an that ``From Him we come and unto Him we return.``

Funny YOU call ME a bigot and then want to kill me! Is there any greater bigotry than thirsting after someone`s life just because you disagree with that person? But then you are only wasting your time hoping to see me dead. Silencing dissent never kills it or else Nazism and Communism would still be around. Killing me would not end the line of those who believe that Palestinians ought not to be used as pawns of the PLO and the other Arabs anymore.

sigalph235

And I am sure if those brave and generous Bengali ``Muslims`` found out about your bigotry, they won`t mind adding another one to 3 million :)

Siagalph #235

You think that

Since you (meaning Mukti Bahini) did not send eight years old to throw stones, therefore your movement was right.

And since Palestinian children are throwing stones their movement is wrong.

Or, do you mean something else.

Also killing of different groups in Bangladesh at the hands of each other, you don`t think is same as killing by Pakistani mercenaries.

But you think, think that killing of palestinians by their own brothers is same as killing and disposession by jews and Israel.

Can you be consistent in applying criteria. Or America Yatra (travel) by Hasina Wajid and quota for clothes is your criteria of taking sides.

re fairdinkum`s threat

`...be careful about what you say next time..`

I come from a people who gave 3 million lives for freedom in a heartbeat. Your threats will not deter me from speaking out.

sigalph235 #125

``All in all, with all due respect, you have wrote a lot in post #121 but said nothing.``

Or perhaps you failed to understand it?
You haven`t answered any of my questions.. have you?

Btw, your bigotry/hatred/bitterness/resentment towards Muslims/Palestinians/Arabs is quite obvious.. It`s no different to Pakistani Eastern command`s hatred for Bengalis..

Perhaps you were not expecting to be taken on by anybody on this site for your bigotry....be careful about what you say next time..

re fairdinkum #121

Your response is predicated on three themes:

1. Patronizing me by dragging the erstwhile issue of the former East Pakistan in reference to Palestinians

2. Trying to label me an Anti-Arab, Anti-Islamic bigot

3. Trying to label me as ignorant, to say the least.

My opinions on the first theme are well known and well articulated before. There is no comparison. Indian Bengalis were not killing East Pakistani Bengalis, unlike Syrian/Jordianian/Lebanese behaviour towards Palestinans. Mukti Bahini never blew up PIA planes. We did not send our eight year olds to throw stones at Pakistani tanks.

On the second theme, well what can I say. If calling me a bigot is all you got, I feel pretty confident of the veracity of my arguments. BTW I never insulted the Mahdi but did question the imbecility of believing that he will do the earthly work of the PLO.

Regarding the third theme, trust me ignorance is a two way street. Just because someone refuses to go along with popular beliefs does not connote ignorance.

All in all, with all due respect, you have wrote a lot in post #121 but said nothing.

UN General Assembly condemns Israel

AAP --
The UN General Assembly voted by a large majority late today to condemn what it called Israel`s ``excessive use`` of force against Palestinian civilians, but 46 countries abstained.

The resolution was adopted by 92 votes to six, Israel, the United States and four small Pacific Ocean states voting against.

The vote revealed a sharp split within the European Union, with six EU states abstaining and nine voting in favour.

Australia, with Canada, Japan, New Zealand and Norway, was among other leading Western nations to abstain from voting.

The vote was taken after an eight-hour special emergency session which began on Wednesday and was adjourned for two days so UN Secretary General Kofi Annan could brief the Assembly on his 10-day trip to the Middle East.

The resolution condemned ``acts of violence, especially the excessive use by the Israeli forces of force against Palestinian civilians``.

It expressed support for the understandings reached at the Sharm el-Sheikh summit and urged ``all parties concerned to implement these understandings honestly and without delay``.

It demanded ``the immediate cessation of violence and use of force`` and called on the parties to ``reverse all measures taken in this regard since September 28``.

It described Israeli settlements in occupied Palestinian territory, including Jerusalem, as ``illegal and an obstacle to peace``.

It called upon ``Israel, the occupying power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilians in Time of War``.

The session was called at the request of the Palestinian observer to the United Nations, Nasser Al-Kidwa, after it became clear that the UN Security Council would not hold a second meeting on the crisis.

Under rules dating to 1950, the Assembly can hold such a session if a lack of unanimity among the five permanent Security Council members prevent the body from exercising its primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security.

The Assembly has held 10 special emergency sessions, most of them on the Middle East. The current session has been suspended five times since 1997.

The Assembly resolution echoed much of the language in a resolution adopted by the Council by 14 votes to none on October 7.

The US ambassador to the United Nations, Richard Holbrooke, who had abstained on the first council vote, said he would veto any new council resolution that criticised Israel.

No member state has a veto in the General Assembly, but unlike Council resolutions, decisions of the Assembly are not binding upon member states.

Holbrooke told reporters before today`s vote that a decision of the Assembly would not have ``the weight, the legitimacy or the authority`` of the Council. - AFP

sadna #122

Thanks for noting that ‘appropriate’ sentiments have not been expressed on this thread in response to the human tragedy of Palestine. And I am aware that such sentiments are not absent.

Yes, I concur ‘giving in’ to violence is not going to bring lasting peace to the region. Violence should stop on both sides… However, keep in mind that one should not narrow the definition of violence down to stone throwing and PLO “terrorist” acts alone. Violence is a broad term!

“IMO a lasting solution has been made difficult by the fact that the `democratic` or representative structures to reflect the various shades of political opinions of most Palentinians and Kashmiris are weak or lacking(or forcibly silenced with the threat of terrorist/state violence). This results in neither of these groups (if taken as single entities) being able to deliver workable, sustainable and largely representative positions in response to any event or initiative, thus frittering away any progress towards solutions.”

To some extent yes… I don’t know much about the political groupings and dynamics of Kashmiri separatists/freedom fighters, but I think PLO largely represents what majority of Palestinians aspires. As for the violence/terrorist activities of PLO and its splinter groups in the past, I believe that their approach in the 70’s was totally misguided. But then, it’s not what you do, its how you do it that matters … and apparently, in this otherwise topsy-turvy world, who does it is also of utmost importance.

I acknowledge the lack of organized, disciplined political efforts on the part of Palestinians to achieve a comprehensive political solution to their miseries, but US-Israel alliance has been and is a formidable opposition for the penniless, homeless, oppressed Palestinians. If Israeli government finds that the promises they made to Palestinians are now becoming unpopular at home, all they have to do is start building more settlements in Gaza or send Ariel Sharon to Al-Quds and the emotional Palestinians will come out onto the streets… Israel can then shoot them down like animals and shift the responsibility of the failure of peace process onto Palestinians too.
All is taken care of from there on by the ‘friends’ of Israel namely the US/West and their powerful and influential media. This has become all too familiar a pattern and recognized as such by UN Security Council save US. I feel reluctant to blame PLO/Arafat/Palestinian people, for their failure to counter this…. It’s like blaming an ant that got trampled by an elephant for being there in the first place.

“Israel had at least a mechanism to sideline Ariel Sharon and extremist Israeli stances if it wished. Infact it was said that the recent exit from Barak`s coalition of hardline religious parties presented the best chance for his government to push through any deal with the Palestinians. Perhaps Arafat, even with his `moral authority` doesnot know even now whether he can or cannot deliver on any promises he makes.”

What would be that mechanism? Elections?
It is also said that Barak’s coalition of hardline religious parties resented the peace process and was extremely unhappy with the promises made to Palestinians by Israeli government in the past and during Mr. Barak’s tenure. They were threatening to bring Mr. Barak down if he proceeded any further with the so-called peace process. So, failure to deliver on the promises has not been entirely a Palestinian problem… in my view, the responsibility of the failure of peace process rests largely with Israel.

“Both issues are complicated by other powerful `state` players claiming to represent their(Palestine/Israeli/Kashmiri) interests, who have their own agendas as well and are out of reach of any concerns of accountability and representation.”

Again, I would not comment on Kashmir (may be we can discuss Kashmir exclusively later – on second thought no… indian Pakistani lar lar kar lootan kabootar hoo jatay hain iss issue par :)), but as far as Israel is concerned, state apparatus with the help of “other powerful state players” also creates ‘complications’ where deemed necessary for “Israeli” as well as “US” interests. On Palestinian side, it’s the Hamas, which is of any significance in this regard.

fairdinkum #121
Just a gentle reminder that though `appropriate` sentiments may not have been expressed on this thread in response to questions raised, it may not be because such sentiments are absent.

Its a human tragedy whenever political problems are sought to be resolved through violence, whether by a powerful state apparatus or by non-state armed groups. But it doesnot necessarily follow that `giving in` to violence by either side is the most sustainable foundation for ending the human tragedy.

Coming to Palestine and Kashmir, without going into possible solutions or the justness of any party`s stand, IMO a lasting solution has been made difficult by the fact that the `democratic` or representative structures to reflect the various shades of political opinions of most Palentinians and Kashmiris are weak or lacking(or forcibly silenced with the threat of terrorist/state violence). This results in neither of these groups (if taken as single entities) being able to deliver workable, sustainable and largely representative positions in response to any event or initiative, thus frittering away any progress towards solutions. An added cost is that its difficult to comprehensively sideline extreme viewpoints held by a few even when a moderate majority of their population would wish to do so. Remaining honestly representative to the political views of a large and diverse population is a difficult problem almost by defination for violent movements, you`ll have to admit.

Israel had at least a mechanism to sideline Ariel Sharon and extremist Israeli stances if it wished. Infact it was said that the recent exit from Barak`s coalition of hardline religious parties presented the best chance for his government to push through any deal with the Palestinians. Perhaps Arafat, even with his `moral authority` doesnot know even now whether he can or cannot deliver on any promises he makes.

Both issues are complicated by other powerful `state` players claiming to represent their(Palestine/Israeli/Kashmiri) interests, who have their own agendas as well and are out of reach of any concerns of accountability and representation.

Sadhana

Sigalph235 #116
Thanks for you advice. I am glad to see that you have decided to move forward and away from your rhetoric about Muslims/Palestinians. However, your resentment against Muslims/Islam/Palestinians is quite obvious. It is not necessarily a bad/negative thing; at least you say what you feel in your heart and that’s fine. You express your views openly. I respect that. I hope we can develop mutual respect through learning, exploring and understanding each other’s views. I must say that you have raised some very vital points in your post.
Let us explore your articles of advice in ascending order.

“1. Condemn Arab atrocities against Palestinians as much as Israeli ones”

Sure thing…however, at appropriate times & at appropriate places. In my view, it is not wise for sympathizers of Palestinians to get distracted at this point in time. Israelis are beating the hell out of Palestinian men, women and children in clear violation of the Universal declaration of human rights and international law. They are engaged in shooting children without showing any regard to Security Council’s resolution condemning Israeli actions as “excessive use of force.” Israel needs to be condemned and Palestinians need our support… This is what we should focus on for the moment.
Let me give you example: In the wake of publication of HRC report, our point of focus should be the atrocities committed by Pakistan army against unarmed, innocent Bengali men, women and children. Not what some other party did or did not do to hurt Bengalis in the past. After the publication of HRC report, a distraction of any sort will be greatly welcomed by Pakistan army – and not by Bengalis or their sympathizers. Bengalis still, rightfully, feel the hurt and pain of atrocities committed by the “Eastern Command”. Imagine (and tell me how you would feel) if the bloodbath of East Pakistan was happening now, and Bengalis or their sympathizers were being told to condemn what Bengalis themselves have done to their own people in the past and/or condemn the “terrorist” acts of Mukti Bahinis against Pak Army and their civilian representatives, rather than condemn the Eastern Command.

Distraction is an age-old technique of oppressors. Whereas, we must condemn Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, and other Islamic countries for their human rights abuses, for their treatment of women and minorities, for their barbaric medieval structure of society, we should not get distracted from what’s happening to Palestinians ‘here and now’ because this, or because somebody else, besides Israelis, has also done the same thing to them in the past or that some splinter groups/fanatic sympathizers of Palestinians have committed acts of terrorism. Yes, by all means, we must condemn all terrorist acts, which, at best, achieve nothing more than a slap on the wrist of oppressors at the expense of innocent human lives. Terrorist acts provide a welcome distraction for oppressors by shifting the focus of world attention from the plight of the oppressed to these “heinous” “terrorist” acts. It is well known that sometimes oppressors themselves commit terrorism on behalf of the oppressed to distract world attention.


“2. Refrain from the exploiting your greed to bring Kashmir into this”

If in Kashmir or Dhaka or Bosnia or Kosova or Rawanda or on any other place on earth, atrocities are being committed against innocent men, women and children, we should not refrain from condemning such heinous acts. I feel comfortable with bringing Kashmir or former East Pakistan into the argument where appropriate. In my post to arun, the argument re kashimir was to illustrate a point. As I often use Bengali/Bangladeshi examples while talking to you. Unlike some others on this site, I look at the problem of Kashmir as a human tragedy.

“3. Understand the fact that the Jews are ordinary human beings not demons”

All human beings are worthy of respect and dignity. One should do their best to avoid making gross generalizations/blanket statements about any race/religion/ethnicity/nationality. I believe I pointed this out to you in response to your post #17? Please read my posts addressed to you carefully.

I get along quite well with Jewish people. One of my best friend is a Jewish lady who calls me a brother. Her mother, who is a survivor of Auschwitz, formed an organization in the 70’s to show solidarity with Palestinian women. It is mainly through her and her friends (all Jewish) that I know a lot more, than I would have, about the history of Zionist movement and why so many Jews (mostly survivors of European concentration camps, and their children) are/were against Zionism and the concept of the state of Israel.

Your statement:

“That said, as one contributor points out, the Arabs are on a bit of a shaky ground asking for implementation of UN resolutions. Had they accepted the partition resolution of 1948, none of this would have happened.”

Perhaps it wouldn’t have happened, and perhaps it was/is inevitable that carving out a country for European Jews in the middle of potentially hostile Arabs was a bad idea to start with. Nonetheless, for West, it was, at the time, the only permanent solution to Jewish “menace” in Europe, and perhaps west was only too happy to collaborate with Zionists to get rid of them – once and for all. What Hitler could not achieve by his efficient gas chambers, and SS mercenaries, Zionists did, and with relative ease I might add, by creating Israel.

As for the UN partition resolution of 1948, and various other points raised in arun gupta’s post, I will post a detailed response soon.

Your statement:

“Those of you who really oppose US policy in the Middle East and want to change it need a few additional pointers. The US will not abandon Israel as long as supporters of the Palestinian side

1. Condone, no matter in what bizarre terms, terrorism”

I think I have addressed this issue already.

“2. Ignore that Israel remains a democracy while Arabs remain medieval dictatorships”

I think the above has largely been addressed… however, a detailed discussion of Israeli democracy and Royal dynasties of Arabia is warranted here. However, due to time constraints, it would be better to leave this for later. I do concur with you that most Middle Eastern countries, or at least their governments, are living in medieval age. But then, world hasn’t seen a democracy that engages in such brutal acts as Israel does and gets away with it too.

“3. Fail to unequivocally accept the right of Israel to exist within secure and safe frontiers.”

The right of Israel to exist within secure, safe, agreed, properly demarcated frontiers has been acknowledged in principal by almost all Arab countries. As Bilal puts it, one should distinguish between the rhetoric of Arabs/Muslims (in anger and/or frustration)to annihilate Israel and the actual capacity to make it a reality. Israel refuses to observe the internationally agreed demarcation of frontiers, refuses to withdraw from occupied territories, and continues to expand its “settlements” in west bank and Gaza strip. Israel is also in contravention of all accords signed to date under the auspices of US.

Your statement:

“UNtil then, please get a very large cup of cappucino along with Asif NAqshbandi as y`all wait for the Mahdi to conquer Israel and all the other good stuff.”

Asif Naqshbandi is entitled to his views/beliefs. I, however, prefer not to probe into his views/beliefs. I am surprised, and disappointed to learn that you consider Bilal or myself to be in Asif Naqshbandi’s league.

Your comments about Mahdi, which for me is a very interesting concept/philosophy/symbolism in Islamic tradition/belief system, and for billions of others a cherished religious belief which provides hope for a better future, are as derogatory and demeaning, if not more, as Asif Naqshbandi’s comments. Such comments only expose one’s ignorance and lack of respect for religious/spiritual beliefs of fellow human beings.

Your comments remind me of a very famous comment by former Australian Prime Minister by the name of Mr. Bob Hawk. In mid 80’s Aborigines of Australia initiated legal proceedings to claim a piece of land in south Australia, which according to their religious beliefs was/is a sacred spiritual/religious site for them. The rednecks who still believe in white Australia policy, and regard Aborigines as sub-human, launched a campaign to undermine Aborigines and their claim by ridiculing Aboriginal spiritual beliefs as “pure superstition” and “medieval rubbish.” When asked about his opinion on this matter during a press conference, Bob Hawk said, “And who has seen the Christian God?”