Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred

What one would consider justice for the Palestinians is dependent on one`s view of history.

Prior to Israel, the Jews were a people without a nation. ( Another people without a nation are the gypsies.)

The long history of persecution of Jews persuaded them that to defend themselves they would need a territory of their own, and so they claimed Palestine, even though they dispersed from there two thousand years ago.

Jewish immigration into Palestine, which then was under British rule, created a large minority of Jews among the previously resident Palestinians. No solution was found for how these people could live together politically, and the United Nations recommended and voted for a partition of Palestine, into two states. A map of the UN plan is at

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/single_image/0,5716,7241+asmbly%5Fid,00.html

Compare this to what the Palestinians have today, after so many years of suffering and struggle, e.g., see ``Maps`` under

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/mideast/

The discussion of how this all came about must necessarily include a philosophical discussion of minority rights, partition etc. -- problems that South Asia has had to confront as well. We all know how difficult these can be.

Given the situation after 1947, the wars subsequent to the UN partition plan cost the Palestinians dearly. Apportioning blame for those wars is beyond this writer. The net result was that Israel was able to expand, and a large Palestinian refugee population was created.

A dispassionate look at history would show that every act of violence has hurt the Palestinians more than it has helped. One can only conclude (also see Mazdak in Dawn) that a non-violent struggle would have achieved better results.

Of course, a non-violent movement for the rights of Palestinians would implicitly also recognize that equivalent rights exist for the Israelis. ( One cannot have a non-violent struggle to obliterate someone else. ) I think far too many Palestinians, and Arabs in general, are not reconciled to the fact of Israel and still have the goal of somehow making it vanish. Therefore, the non-violent path has never been seriously examined. Also, the current peace process cannot succeed.

If justice is to live in peace, security, with prosperity, with political freedom, with a voice in the conduct of one`s own affairs, with freedom of religion, culture, etc., then I believe that the Palestinians can achieve it only by non-violent means. But the original UN plan is out of reach.

-arun gupta

Lebanese civil war history....

http://www.techfak.uni-kiel.de/

In response to sigalph235 (Reply # 100)

Dear Sigalph235:

If the Jews (I am not talking about the Israeli citizens only) were/are victims of anti-semitism (which they were/are), they themselves be more sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. At present, the question is not of either/or. Israel is a reality (despite its long and ugly modern history). Krashid is entitled to his opinions, and his opinion shouldn’t really affect your viewpoint and rhetoric.

The Arab regimes have often played games that have been detrimental to the cause of the Palestinian people. I don’t claim to know much about modern Middle Eastern history, I am only a casual reader (perhaps like most other Chowkwallas). I never remain mum about any act of transgression as long as I understand it adequately. I, for example, have a bad taste in my mouth about the mercenary role of Pakistan Army in both within and outside Pakistan.

Your statement: “. . . genuine friends of Palestinians must ask themselves, after fifty years of a failed violent antisemitic, anti-Western policy, are they any better off? How long are the Palestinian people going to be held hostage to the capricious whims of lazy Oriental scholars and corrupt Arab dictators?”

Comment: Yes, you have put your finger on the right spot (though I am not sure if I understand your viewpoint adequately). Who are the lazy Oriental scholars? Edward Said? Who are the corrupt Arab dictators? Who is formulating and implementing anti-Western policies? What do you propose to change the situation? Could you propose a solution that will be lasting and honorably valued by all parties in the long run?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. Are you aware of Tikkun (a research journal published by some radical-liberal Israelis)?

Siagalph #235

What is anti-semitic in my post.

Are fact presentation mostly from European sources anti-semitism. Does condemning the killings of hundreds of Palestinian by the whole world anti-semitic.

I have presented the argument as they exist.

And most of my views on jewish thinking is taken directly from Zionist books themselves and not anti-zionist as you are trying to proove.

If you don`t know the difference between a jew and gentile and their place in jewish religion and thinking you should read it to know the world view of them.

Also the argument that jews have been massacred and left only the intelligent jews is also from books by jewish writers.

Also how can you condemn Pakistani mercenaries when they at least give back your land and not call jewish the same, when they have captured also the land of palestinian people.

Also you have to differentiate the difference between fighting between Khalida Zia and Hasina Sheikh and say for example India and Bangladesh. Do you agree both are bad but of a different nature.

And criteria of being authentic is not to take an UNPOPULAR STAND. But the consistency of thought by which you judge different phenomenon whether it is popular or unpopular.

re bilal ahmed`s

``What I don’t share with you is your indirect legitimization of the injustices against the poor, innocent, and oppressed Palestinians.``

There you go again! Just because one supports the right of Israel to exist within secure frontiers and condemns the anti-semitism espoused by the types of krashid does not mean legitimization of oppressio against the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians have had a rough a deal through history. But your voices on behalf of the Palestinian people (as opposed to the PLO brass) will carry more weight when the oppressions of other Arabs towards their Palestinian `bretheren` is called to task as well. Since you claim to know so much about Middle Eastern history, how is it that you are so mum about the massacre of Palectinians during Black December in 1970 by the Jordanians(helped by Pakistanis, I might add). Or how about the butchery at Tripoli, Lebanon in 1983 by the Syrians against the Palestinians? Or maybe the behaviour displayed by the Kuwaitis against the Palestinians in the aftermath of the liberation of Kuwait. See, if oppression by Israelis is bad then oppression by Arabs is too. It would appear that the plight of Palestinians is more of an item of chessboard politics than genuine concern for a lot of Arab thugs like Saddam and Gaddafi.

I am under no illusion that what I say is extremely unpopular and politically blasphemous in Arab/Muslim circles. But then genuine friends of Palestinians must ask themselves, after fifty years of a failed violent anti-semitic, anti-Western policy, are they any better off? How long are the Palestinian people going to be held hostage to the capricious whims of lazy Oriental scholars and corrupt Arab dictators?

Sigalph and Scout,

You ae right that currently the Zionist Stateis too powerful for any of the Muslim states; primarily asit has nukes and they dont (excep pakistan); but why?

the reason is that the muslims are not united--when we become united insha Allah, THEN the days for the illegitimate zionist state created by the British and French with the Balfour and Sykes-Picot treaties--and now protected by the USAas its arm in the Middle East WILL vanish.

It might not happen in our lifetimes but it definitely happen. The Mahdi will appear. And when hedoes--bye, bye Israel.

Okay, so they will fight if their existence is threatened? They will probably use nukes. In a matter of nukes some middle eastern countries will get nukes too, eg iran. Then what? There are over a billion muslims in the world and only about 5 million odd Zionists in Israel--so, will they be willing to play the nuke card with such odds?

This is all immaterial as Allah`s Messenger alayhi salaato salaam has told us that Islam will one day rule the world again. And the whole world can be wrong but Allah`s Messenger can NEVER NEVER be wrong.

Also, remember that it took the Muslims 88 years before Jerusalem was liberated from the Crusaders under Sultan SalaH ud Deen. So what is a mere 50 odd years. We can wait for a 1000 years patiently, but one day, it is promised that Al Quds will be ours...:-)

And as for the Jews, they can live their peacefully as ahl ul dhimma, like they did in the past. So dont give me these words about antisemitism...

the israelis can win a 100 wars but the muslims only have to win ONE and its all over.

It might happen before the Mahdi comes (I doubt it) but when he alayhi salaam appears...

Why do most palestinians inside Occupied Palestine

support HAMAS and not the peace treaty? Ask yourself...

Why did the indo-paks want freedom from the british?

I am afraid that all the points in post #93 of Sigalph235 are valid. We can use rhetoric to deny them but they are in our face.

In response to sigalph235

Dear sigalph235:

Politicians often say thing to suit particular times, events, goals, etc. Specific statements need to be seen and assessed in light a longer time frame. I don’t know how much you know about the history of the state of Israel. I suspect that you do understand the role of the US in the creation and the expanded reproduction of the state of Israel. Like you, I am also appreciative of some aspects of the Israeli people. What I don’t share with you is your indirect legitimization of the injustices against the poor, innocent, and oppressed Palestinians.

Your comment regarding cultural imperialism is well taken. Yet, the beneficiaries of this form of imperialism are not really the British. Britain is no more hegemonic and Israel is only 52 year old.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Siagalp #87

By all account this is true.

Intifada as you know had no relation with Yasser Arafat and was an indigenous movement in Palestine. Israel was putting lot of its resources towards fighting it. To counter it they brought, Yasser Arafat for a peace deal. None of the palestinian I talked is in favor of this deal, because it is humiliating. Mind that this land belongedd to Palestinians a while back. (How did Yasser Arafat became a leader from a terrorist of West in one day). In the current situation, Clinton has openly said to move its Capital to Jerusalem, while even according to that humiliating document called peace deal this matter of jerusalem is unresolved. Do you think Clinton is a neutral umpire. All the American officials were first in criticizing the death of two Israeli soldiers, while they were careful not to utter a single word in the killing of palestinians by Israeli Soldiers. (The whole world except America has condemned it)

Do you think Palestinians would think it as neutrality or one-sided, partial negotiator and broker.

Scout #89

I would disagree with the main thrust of your post.

There is no doubt, that jews have tried to consolidate their foundations in economics out of fear of persecution done to them throughout the centuries, hopefully to prevent it again.

But their reason is not religious but psedo-religious. First they think themselves as choosen people of God, which is against the equality of human race. For the same reason, they think other people inferior. Their behaviour is determined by this. Where ever they stay, they try to subjugate the population by their control of economy, that produces a backlash against them. It was same in Russia, same in Germany in last couple of centuries.

Moreover, since they divide humans into Jews and gentile. For themselves jews create some standards, but for gentiles they think that they are below human dignity. Also because of this thinking, morality does not come into consideration, when they think of gentiles. You can see which business jews are in and how they make money by corrupting the society. Hollywood is jewish controlled. And so is the media. Also all their actions are in legal framework, even massacre is done legally. Prime example is Iraq, where millions of people of an oil rich country died, legally. (Vis-a-vis Israel against whom none of the UN Resolutions are binding). Just see Government in Norway could not take oath, people having anti-semitic sentiments are not tolerated (Anti-Muslim, Anti-hindu and anti-Christian sentiments are tolerated all over the world)

I can go on and on. But to say in short. I would rather die a pauper and happy than believing in that kind of ideology and be sadist.

It does not mean that I am not in favor of upliftment. We should realize that education and economic activity is not only not against religion, but is pro-religion. During Hajj one of the important ritual, it is allowed to do business and Hajj together. Also In Koran and Hadith importance of education is stressed repeatedly. In Koran not only natural phenomenon are repeatedly pointed out, but it is stressed to think on those phenomenon. (What can we do that our Ulema to keep control on people restrict education to religious education only).

ahmadb #92,

As long as the US wants to keep Israel as it`s favorite mistress, to have and to hold, from a distance, Israel will stay.

God`s justice is not for mortal men.

re bahmad

Actually I should credit the late Mr Suhrawardy and the late King Hassan II for the remark about Israel being here to stay. Muslim leaders have been predicting the demise of Israel for the last fifty years. Hasn`t happened. They have blamed the durability of the little giant on the supposed largesse of the US. But Israel is still here after fighting five wars against enemies far superior in numbers and equipment every time.

Look closely at Israel my friend. It has a resolute character and a hardy people. They will stay because they will fight. They will fight because else they will be thrown into the sea. These folks went through one exile and survived thousands of years of prejudice, overt and covert, and yet managed to keep the semblance of peoplehood. When the Poles, Nazis, and Communists couldn`t destroy them, it is unlikely that Arabs will.

As for the British Empire, are you sure it is gone? What language are we using on this forum? What is the lingua franca of the world including the former Russian and French colonies? Who`s judicial and criminal justice system do the Indians, Pakistanis, and Australians follow? What is the game that 22 players in white play for six days?The point is that the British Empire is perpetually alive and well in its cultural aspect.

In response to sigalph (Reply #: 90)

Dear sigalph235:

Your statement: ``Israel has come to stay.``

Comment: How could you be so sure? Remember the British once rule the globe and they were most certainly (according to some, including them)going to stay in India.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re: asif naqsha

You go boy. Don`t get discouraged, it is time for the mother of all Jihads. All muslims from the world should unite and fight the evil Israelis and other assorted kafirs who support them. Once that mother of all Jihad armies has wiped out Israel, it can head to the shores of America, India, and then Russia.

re asif naqshbandi #88

Israel has come to stay. With peace, without peace, in spite of peace, she will stay. She will stay with an undivided Jerusalem as her ancient and eternal capital. The Arabs have tried five wars and numerous cowardly attacks on Israeli civillians. Nothing has worked. When Hitler with 6 million couldn`t detroy those people what makes you think that some future messiah will(that is if he even wants too)?

In the process of survival, Israel will one day visit sure and swift retribution on the likes of Hamas. If Entebbe and Tunis are any indication, Hamas will get its due too.

As for people like you who have so brazenly twisted religious texts to create a God who is anti-semitic, well join the club of many a Protestant fundamentalist groups. At least Adolf Eichmann never claimed a divine mission to liquidate Jews. You guys do.

Asif #88,

It ain`t gonna happen dude. What goes on in the world is plain and simple: the powerful step on the weak. And in this day and age, the weak are Muslims. Every Muslim country is suffering in one way or another. And when countries suffer, the high and mighty West disappears. When the damage is being done, there`s no one. When the damage is done, the United States appears with it`s military broom to clean things up.

Your hadiths, your jihads will not work. Drop them and take example from the Jews. Despite being persecuted and killed off, today they are indirectly ruling the West. How? Because they kept their religion safely and respectfully locked behind their personal homes while building a solid foundation for themselves through education and business.

I agree that what`s happening in Israel is wrong. But we can only watch. We don`t have the power to do anything beyond words. Why? Because people like you and other fundamentalists are too busy defining Islam, butchering it, and feeding misconceptions to your peers.

You have a hand in creating this problem. Now bear it, however painful it may be.