Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred

tahmed321, ``So the Israelis forced Palestinians out of their homes and took their land. Is it worth it to keep fighting, year after year?``

So what you`re saying is, it`s okay to be oppressed and not fight for what is rightfully yours? What about your identity? Should we (desis) have not fought with the Brits for our land? We should have just grinned and bore the pain of having our land snatched away?

No one likes to fight, and the Palestinians have due reason to.

``Is land worth even one life as long as you have somewhere to live?``

Yeah sure, you`ll find a place to live. Where else will oppressed people go? But will it be what they deserve?

The very creation of Israel was for the Jewish people to have land they could call their own.

IF land wasn`t so important as you say it`s not, couldn`t the Jews have lived anywhere? Why in the Middle East?

Think before you make such false ``righteous`` statements.

So the Israelis forced Palestinians out of their homes and took their land. Is it worth it to keep fighting, year after year? Is land worth even one life as long as you have somewhere to live? Here is an alternative vision for the Palestinians: Achieve ascendancy in the knowledge-intensive economy, and let history judge who was right and who was wrong. Land does not matter any more.

fairdinkum

At least Israel formed an inquiry commission and her soldiers and statesmen spoke out against her alleged atrocities while others, like the late Begin, were finished politically. The Americans had a press, which you quote, that regularly lashes out at US support of Israel.

Now pray tell, who amongst the PLO and the Arabs has spoken out against Palestinian terrorism? Nor do I recall hearing too many Syrian judges condemn Assad`s destruction of Hama. May be I missed the issue of the Libyan newspaper which criticised Moammar Gaddafi`s support for global terror groups.

Imperfect as it is, Israel remains the only democracy in the Middle East. Her human rights record is not good at all. But she needs no lecture from Palestinians or most other Arabs on that issue. Where was the outrage when Assad`s army crushed mosques, homes, and people in Hama? Did you know that far more people were killed there than at Sabra and Shatila?

Condemning Israel and the Jews is a favourite pastime of pseudo-intellectuals of the Muslim world. All that righteous energy over the fifty years could have been put to much effective use in improving the conditions of the people in Pakistan,Bangladesh, and the Sudan. The money so lavishly given to terror groups in Syria and Iraq could have helped feed the starving masses in Ethiopia and Somalia. But these were not the `sexy` issues for the sheikhs. The PLO and Israel was.

And yet there have been bold leaders who have broken away from this slavish `groupthink` mentality. Jordan and Turkey and Egypt come to mind.

And, by the way, Israel has left Lebanon? When will Syria? Or is Israeli occupation of Lebanon more morally offensive than the SYrian one?

If I have a dictionary written by an Israeli, you probably don`t have one at all.

shankar #24, ``Sometimes I feel religion should be banned in this world. It is the one concept that has caused the most amount of hatred in mankind.``

I agree, ban organized religion and let individual spirituality flourish.

``But then that wont stop human nature. We`ll find other ways to hate each other. ``

I`m sure the other ways would be less cruel.

Can`t compare the evils of religious hatred (Holocaust, genocide of Muslim Bosnians, Hindu caste killings, Bin Laden terrorism etc...)

to other forms of hatred in the world.

Re: Sabra and Shatila massacres

According to International Red Cross sources, the number of people massacred were around 2,750. But author Amnon Kapeliouk places the figure between 3,000 and 3,500 to include:

(1) those buried in mass graves whose number cannot be ascertained;

(2) those who were buried under the ruins of houses;

(3) those who were taken alive to an unknown destination but never returned. The bodies of some of them were found by the side of the roads leading to the south (Amnon Kapeliouk, ``Sabra and Chatila,``pp93-94).

``While the actual operation was carried out by the Lebanese Phalangists, responsibility for the massacre rests on the shoulders of the Israelis who armed and paid them, and lit the skies above the camps with flares as the killing went on through the night, and who had planned the massacre. It also rests on the United States, which undertook to guarantee the safety of the inmates of the two camps after the PLO had departed from Lebanon (Bitter Harvest). Former Under-Secretary of State George Ball commented on the subject as follows:

``In America our nation’s responsibility for the whole tragic incident has gone largely unnoticed, yet the facts are clear enough. We put our own good faith behind Israel’s word of honor, otherwise the PLO would never have agreed to leave. The PLO trusted America’s promise that the Palestinians left behind would be safe-guarded. When America promised ‘to do its utmost’ to ensure that Israel kept its commitments, they took that commitment at face value. They would never have trusted an Israeli promise, but they trusted us. We betrayed them. (George Ball, Error and Betrayal in Lebanon, p.57)

``After that the Israeli soldiers would claim that they did not know what was happening. They did not hear the screams and shouts of people being massacred. They did not see wanton murderer of innocent people through their telescopic binoculars`` (From Beirut to Jerusalem). What they saw in Sabra and Shatila camps was only nests of terrorist children and terrorist women and old men that needed to be destroyed. They did not even know that almost one quarter of the camps neighborhood was inhabited by the hapless Lebanese Shiites who bought the dismal shacks from Palestinians who were able to make it in other places.

When the United Nations adopted a resolution to condemn Israel for using the world prohibited (cluster bombs), the US representative in the Security Council used the veto three times between June and August 1982 to prevent the adoption of any resolution against Israel.

Re: Terrorists, Terrorism and Thugs

“Yitzhak Shamir was originally a member of a Jewish terrorist group called the Irgun, which was headed by former Prime Minister Menachem Begin. Mr. Shamir later moved over to the even more radical Stern gang.
Whether Mr. Arafat ever specifically sanctioned an act of terrorism against unarmed civilians is disputed. Israel, and the US government, assume he has. PLO spokesmen say that terrorist acts committed by Palestinians or their friends and sympathizers among other Arab communities have been done by fanatical individuals or groups over which Arafat has no control.
That Shamir and Mr. Begin have been leaders of terrorist bands that committed many atrocities is beyond question. Shamir himself has defended the various assassinations committed by the Irgun and Stern gangs on the ground that ``it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go to selected targets.`` The selected targets in those early days of the founding of the state of Israel included Lord Moyne, British resident minister in Cairo in 1944, and the Swedish count, Folke Berndotte, on Sept. 17, 1948. Not all Begin and Shamir targets were so precise. The first act of terrorism in the long Arab-Israel wars, which involved many victims, was the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on July 2, 1946. Many women were among the 91 people killed.
On April 9, 1948, a combined force of Irgun and Stern gangs committed ``a particularly brutal massacre of some 250 Arab residents [of the village of Deir Yassin], many of them women and children,`` according to Evan M. Wilson, author of ``Decisions on Palestine.`` Accounts by Red Cross and United Nations observers who visited the scene said that the houses were first set on fire and then the residents were shot down as they came out to escape the flames.
In a book titled ``Taking Sides,`` published by William Morrow and Co., Inc., author Stephen Green tells of the ``Lavon Affair,`` which shook more than one Israeli Cabinet. The affair began in June 1954, with the planting of ``a ring of spies [``moles``]`` in Cairo, ordering it to begin sabotage operations against selected Egyptian, British, and American targets. The Alexandria post office was firebombed on July 2. On July 14, the US Information Agency offices in Cairo and Alexandria were damaged by fire started by phosphorus incendiary devices, as was a British-owned theater.
Members of the spy ring were caught, and they confessed. They had been planted by Modiin, the Israeli military intelligence organization. The purpose, presumably, was to sabotage Egyptian relations with the US and Britain. Various commissions of inquiry into the affair conducted in Israel were never able to decide whether or not Israeli Defense Minister Pinchon Lavon authorized the operation.
On Oct. 14-15, 1953, an Israeli force attacked the unarmed Arab village of Kibya, in the demilitarized zone, killing 53 civilians. The details were so gruesome that the US joined in a UN condemnation of the Israeli action and, for the first and only time, suspended US aid to Israel in reprisal.
Israeli armed forces invaded Lebanon on June 6, 1982. Arab casualties vastly outnumbered Israeli casualties. During the invasion, there were brutal massacres of Arabs at Sabra and Shatila camps for which the Israeli High Court held Israeli military officers responsible. “

Joseph C. Harsch
The Christian Science Monitor (Nov. 1988)

Immediately following the establishment of Israel, the three underground terrorist organizations established under the mandate period —the Hagana led by David Ben Gurion, the Irgun Zvei Leumi led by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang led by Yizhaq Shamir — all combined forces and started to dispel and drive out the Arabs. The massacre of innocent women and children at Dier Yassin speaks for itself as to how they went about accomplishing this task. The Deir Yassin savagery was later described by Menachem Begin as:
``not only justifiable but there would not have been a state of Israel without the victory at Deir Yassin.``

On February 20, 1989, Alice F. Smith wrote in the Time Magazine:

``What manner of man would retaliate against a stone-throwing child by shooting him in the back as he ran away? What manner of government would retaliate by fining already poverty stricken parents $1000, demolishing their home, and confiscating their meager possessions? What manner of people are these arrogant settlers who think they have a God given right to commit such atrocities and still cry for more? What manner of people are we that we permit our government to give away billions of the American tax-payers’ dollars to Israel every year, enabling it to continue to subjugate the Palestinians?``

Recalling all the brutalities on the part of the Israeli government, Paul Findley, a former U.S Congressman for 22 years, says:

``As an American, I hang my head in shame, because I know that America is the pipeline without which Israel could not inflict such punishment upon those poor people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.``

Deedat, Ahmed and Findley, Paul. Is Israel Set-Up For Destruction? (Cape Town; IPCI, 1989)

The world could not understand the hatred displayed by the Palestinians against the Jews. Yoram Binur explains the hatred:

``For 20 years, the Palestinians lived among us. During the day we were the employers who profited by their cheap labor and exploited them for all they were worth; in the afternoon we were the police; in the evening we were the soldiers at the roadblock on their way home; and finally, at night, we were the security forces who entered their homes and arrested them``

Binur, Yoram., My Enemy, My Self (New York: Doubleday, 1989) p. 196

Re: Sabra and Shatila massacres

Yoram Binur, a Jew who was served in the Israeli army, writes:

``Tales of torture, murder, rape, and pillage perpetrated by the Christian Phalangists against the Palestinian population were routine and were doubtless known to the Israeli Intelligence officers who supervised the Phalangists. Years later, when the committee investigating the massacres at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps interrogated Ariel Sharon, Rafeel Eytan, and others, they claimed that they had no way of knowing that the Christian Phalangists would commit such atrocities. I could only laugh in the face of such blatant lies.``


Binur, Yoram., My Enemy, My Self (New York: Doubleday, 1989) p. 37

Re: Sabra and Shatila massacres

``Israel invaded southern Lebanon in June 1982 (the ``Peace for Galilee War``), instructing the largely Christian Lebanese Phalange faction - which had received ISRAELI ARMS and TRAINING - not to participate in the fighting; if Phalangist misbehaviour occurred, it would be dealt with by the Israel Defence Force. In August the Phalangist leader (and president-elect of Lebanon), Bashir Gemayel, was assassinated, and Israeli forces moved into West Beirut. They agreed that the Phalangists, rather than themselves, would enter the refugee camps at Sabra and Shatila, where, after the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) fighting forces had been evacuated from Beirut by an international flotilla, many Palestinian women, children, and old men were seeking refuge.

There was some opposition to this proposal among Israeli senior officers who feared a ``bloodbath``; but it was eventually settled that the Phalangist forces would enter the camps, having been warned by Israeli commanders not to harm the inhabitants. Nevertheless, the Phalangists carried out a series of massacres of the inhabitants. Eventually, the Israeli authorities established a Commission of Inquiry presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and the Kahan Report was produced`` (Leslie C Green - the Kahan report)

The whole report is available at :

http://www.hebron.com/massacres/sabra/massacres-sabra-kahan-commision.html

And this is Israeli version of the events that took place...not a PLO version...not an Arab version ... not a Muslim version...

No where in the report is Syria mentioned as a party (directly or indirectly) to the crime against humanity at sabra and shatile refugee camps. Israeli senior officers despite knowing what the intentions of Phalangists were, allowed them to enter the camps where WOMEN AND CHILDREN were seeking refuge.

How could this happen without the approval of Israeli forces who were in direct command of Phalangists at that time?

I repeat ISRAELIS WERE IN DIRECT COMMAND OF PHALANGISTS(Christian Lebanese militia) AT THE TIME OF SABRA AND SHATILA MASSACRES.

sigalph235 #29

Dear Sigalph,

You say:

``Of course, it is quite okay when the SYrians kill, isn`t it?``

No, it is not okay to kill innocent men, women and children...and that was the whole point of my post #22. I guess you missed it in the flood of emotions. Your assertion that massacres in sabra and shatila camps were carried out on behalf of Syrians, and Israelis only intervened to stop the bloodshed is questionable. Perhaps we are looking at two different versions of history.

Palestinians have endured a lot more oppression than Bengalis – no comparison between PLO and Mukti Bahenis of course… The situation of Bengalis and Palestinians is also different. Palestinians have lost everything – their country, their homes their businesses their families their culture… They have been living as refugees for decades. In such situations there is always a possibility of splinter groups resorting to violence to get world attention. Look at the situation in Northern Ireland. However, despite what IRA did, Jerry Adams is still invited to participate in peace talks. Political wing of IRA has been a part of mainstream political process – and all this with the blessings of none other than US of A.

It seems that you have a dictionary written by an Israeli :) …..only those acts of violence that PLO or its splinter groups have committed are included in the definition of terrorism. I might have to pull out a dictionary written by Gen. Tikka Khan …:)

As for the atrocities committed by Pakistani army in East Pakistan (former), please have a look at my comments re HRC report... No human being deserves to get shot, or raped, or made homeless or forced to live as a refugee. Perhaps, you are young and emotional, but you will eventually find out, and understand (I hope you will) that the misery of human beings (including Palestinians/Muslims) is not something one should make fun of. Not all Arabs deserve to get killed. Not all Muslims are bad people.

Good. Then a question naturally pops up in ones mind.What should we call a person who wrongfully accuses others of doing something that they didnt? Should we call him a ``liar`` or he gets to keep his status de jure of an ``accuser``?

re fairdinkum 22

you claim ``...massacres of Palestinians in sabra and shatila where the Israeli soldiers massacred women and children. ``

A check at history will reveal that the said massacres were carried out by the Phalangist militia of the Gemayel brothers while it was finally halted only when the Isrelis intervened to stop the Arabs slaughtering the Arabs. It is not surprising that the 30,000 Syrian forces didn`t lift a finger to stop the Phalangists: after all the Lebanese Phalangist militia was practically created by the Syrians in 1976 as a counterweight to the Druze/PLO alliance in the civil war. And the Syrians were only too happy to continue the massacre in the same two camps and at Brouj al Brajneh the next year. Of course, it is quite okay when the SYrians kill, isn`t it?

As for comparing the Mukti Bahini to the PLO thugs, give me ONE example where the Mukti Bahini blew up third party innocent victims at foreign airports? Or hijacked planes? Or blew up buses full of school children? Or kill Pakistani athletes in the Olympics?

And for goodness sake, get real about comparing the IDF with the Pakistani Eastern Command. A million(three million by Bengali estimates) dead, two hundred thousand women violated, half the university professoriat butchered in cold blood? That happened in Dhaka, not in Tel Aviv or Beirut.

AAM-UL-FEEL; THE YEAR OF THE ELEPHANT

All day today I have been thinking about Mohammed Rami ad-Dorra. For some of us it might be just another name; the 8 year old who was murdered right in front of his father and the whole world three days ago.

Please forgive my jay walking today; I cannot focus my mind on anything. I have no idea where to start this post. The focus keeps on shifting from Mohammad to Commander Laila Khalid to firefly Nada Al Husseini; George Habash to Yasser Arafat; Hamas to Fatah; Amal to Hizballah; Popular Front to PLO; Yasmin Shaheed to Yehya Ayyash Shaheed.

I also think of the little birds like Mohammed; the Children of Paradise; Our 8 or 9 year old Ghazi Salahuddins, our Tipu Shaheed,and our Ali Asghars of this time. Who could have thought that these little Ababeels could bring the Abraha of this time to his knees with their slingshots?

Our little angels! we believe in you. Now that you are closer to Him, please tell Him not to judge us all from the few among us who can blow their trumpets and drums louder than our voices. They tell me that your Jihad is useless; it has nothing to do in this day and age. They tell me that, ``it is economy stupid``. May be I am stupid. Perhaps I ask stupid questions. When I ask them how many dollars it costs to buy freedom they laugh at me. When I ask them which stock exchange deals in ``self-determination`` they wink at each other. When I ask them which ATM dispenses off ``self-respect to a nation`` they look the other way. May be I am stupid.

They tell me His word is old and useless now. It should be discarded just like their old shoes and clothes that they throw out in the United Way canister on a sunny weekend. I wonder if they have thrown their mothers and fathers in those canisters too since they are old and fragile and useless too?

My fallen angels! my Mujahids! Tell Him that Abraha has brought his army again. Is it the year of the Elephant again?

Israel: obstacle to peace

By Ammara Durrani

The recent Arab-Israeli clashes are worse than anything seen during the Intifada of 1987-1993. As their death toll continues to rise, the Palestinians have started calling these events as the beginning of the battle for Al-Quds - a battle between guns and stones, and fought with rage and hatred.

rest at:

http://www.dawn.com/2000/10/06/op.htm#3

Protest against Israeli atrocities tommorow at 5 pm at Times Square NYC

Protest At Rutgers next Wednesday .........

Hope to see you all there !

Yasser Hamdani

Urtruly #23,

Maybe we should send that list to Washington?

Great post by the way.

same goes for fairdinkum #22,

good points!

scout,

{{Now that`s a noble idea. But then, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all think they are the best things to happen to this world. These three religions are not good at sharing, not anymore at least.}}

Well, thats why I said they deserve to wallow in their misery:)

To be fair, though, its not just Christians, Jews & Muslims that think they are the best thing that happened to this world. Fundamentalists of EVERY religion feel their way is the best or only way to salvation. Sometimes I feel religion should be banned in this world. It is the one concept that has caused the most amount of hatred in mankind.

But then that wont stop human nature. We`ll find other ways to hate each other.

The fathers of psychoanalysis were mostly non practising Jews. But their ``schools of thoughts`` caused divisions. Eg, Freudeans & Jungians did`nt talk to each other. Ah, what the heck, maybe the world would be a better place if there was a total nuclear holocaust & some other species dominated this planet after humans become extinct.

After all dinosaurs ruled earth for 65 million years. Most people dont think humans will last for another thousand yrs.

Cheers