Al-Quds Divided: The Politics of Hatred

A Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza is a nightmare. These ex-terrorists can hardly run the little piece they are lording over in Gaza right now. Heck, they treat dissent with a brutality which is comparable to the worst Israeli actions. Give them a bigger piece and they will become the slave-masters of the rest of the Arab population there. Give them Jerusalem and they`ll probably blow it up like they use to regularly blow up airplanes.

Arabs and their lackey poorer Muslim nations will need to heed the the late HS Suhrawardy`s statement: Israel has come to stay. And she intends to stay with her historic capital of Jerusalem. Once the rabid emotionalism is settled thw world will realise what a mistake it is turn Jerusalem over to the PLO.

Scout,

{{They are fighting for the right to have their own nation, their land, their identity which THEY DESERVE because they have been living on that land for ages. They shouldn`t have to fight for it, it is theirs.}}

Even most Israelis accept that. They dont have a problem about the West Bank or Gaza. The sticking point is Jerusalem. Nobody wants to share it. Ideally Jerusalem should be a soverign state within a state (perhaps like Vatican City), but with the difference that it should be shared by all 3 religions.

Re: Shankar # 18

I think that we should turn the Big J into a theme park and charge a daily fee for the riot du jour! :)

Let us nuke Middle East - Moses was given a lemon; we have the land, but where is the promise part? :) LOL

Ciao!

re sigalph #17:

``Give them Jerusalem and they`ll probably blow it up like they use to regularly blow up airplanes.``

Spoken like a true curranta. Now you have really handed in your passport. Welcome aboard.

later

-sac

shankar #19, ``The sticking point is Jerusalem. Nobody wants to share it. Ideally Jerusalem should be a soverign state within a state (perhaps like Vatican City), but with the difference that it should be shared by all 3 religions.``

Everything was just fine until they Brits stuck their trouble making noses into the area.

Turning Jerusalem into a sovereign state?

Now that`s a noble idea. But then, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all think they are the best things to happen to this world. These three religions are not good at sharing, not anymore at least.

Who knows though, if Jerusalem isn`t destroyed in the near future, maybe your idea will come into shape. I sure hope so for the sake of the people living there, not because of religious significance, for I believe God is everywhere you want Him to be.

sigalph235 #17

``Arabs and their lackey poorer Muslim nations will need to heed the the late HS Suhrawardy`s statement: Israel has come to stay. And
she intends to stay with her historic capital of Jerusalem``

sigalph,
I read you posts with interest, and usually find them quite balanced and sensible. However, I have to disagree with you here. Ok, lets talk about Mr. Suharwardy`s statement.

Well, there are claims by Aboriginal Australians over much of Australia including the Sydney harbor, the opera house and the home bush bay where Olympics took place… Their historical claims are based on 60,000 years of continued presence in this continent, and living off the Land that they claim. Most ``civilized`` Europeans, who have only been here for 200 years, laugh at their claims.

And if we apply Mr. Suharwardy`s logic, then what is wrong with Iraq, historically, claiming Kuwait to be part of Iraq? … And what about such claims in Balkans, and parts of Europe? the list will go on and on. I need to look at the context of Mr. Suharwardy`s statement to truly appreciate it. However, your conclusions based on his statement are certainly flawed.

I urge you to look at the plight of Palestinians from a humanistic point of view. Even if there is resentment against ``Muslims`` in your heart, which is apparent from your bitter post, you should have the decency of acknowledging the facts. Millions of Palestinians have been made homeless, and have been forced to live as refugees since the arrival of Jews from Europe and elsewhere to this land that they (Jews) ``historically`` claim to be theirs. You should have the decency to acknowledge decades of oppression which palentinians have endured which includes horrific brutility on the part of Iraelis such as the massacres of Palestinians in sabra and shatila where the Israeli soldiers massacred women and children. You looked at handful of terrorists who blow up planes and decided to condemn the entire Palestinian nation and the entire population of Muslims in the world? I don`t think that terrorist actions of handful of Mukti Bahinis made it halal for Pakistani Army to massacre poor Bengali civilians - men, women and children.

On one hand you condemn Pakistani army, but on the other hand you smile, and urge the Israeli soldiers on for essentially similar actions to what Pakistani army was guilty of in formerly East Pakistan.

ISRAEL 101 - A basic course for (intellectualy) handicapped or those who have just landed on the `third planet from the Sun`

By Charley Reese of The Sentinel Staff Published in The Orlando Sentinel February 8, 1998

Just so you can keep up with the perpetual crisis in the Middle East, here is a quiz to test your knowledge:

Question: Which country in the Middle East has nuclear weapons? Answer: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections? A: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions? A: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire? A: Israel.

Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)? A: Israel.

Q: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated? A: Israel.

Q: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated? A: Israel.

Q: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors? A: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union? A: Israel.

Q: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon? A: Israel.

Q: What country on Planet Earth has the most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders? A: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes? A: Israel.

scout,

{{Now that`s a noble idea. But then, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all think they are the best things to happen to this world. These three religions are not good at sharing, not anymore at least.}}

Well, thats why I said they deserve to wallow in their misery:)

To be fair, though, its not just Christians, Jews & Muslims that think they are the best thing that happened to this world. Fundamentalists of EVERY religion feel their way is the best or only way to salvation. Sometimes I feel religion should be banned in this world. It is the one concept that has caused the most amount of hatred in mankind.

But then that wont stop human nature. We`ll find other ways to hate each other.

The fathers of psychoanalysis were mostly non practising Jews. But their ``schools of thoughts`` caused divisions. Eg, Freudeans & Jungians did`nt talk to each other. Ah, what the heck, maybe the world would be a better place if there was a total nuclear holocaust & some other species dominated this planet after humans become extinct.

After all dinosaurs ruled earth for 65 million years. Most people dont think humans will last for another thousand yrs.

Cheers

Urtruly #23,

Maybe we should send that list to Washington?

Great post by the way.

same goes for fairdinkum #22,

good points!

Protest against Israeli atrocities tommorow at 5 pm at Times Square NYC

Protest At Rutgers next Wednesday .........

Hope to see you all there !

Yasser Hamdani

Israel: obstacle to peace

By Ammara Durrani

The recent Arab-Israeli clashes are worse than anything seen during the Intifada of 1987-1993. As their death toll continues to rise, the Palestinians have started calling these events as the beginning of the battle for Al-Quds - a battle between guns and stones, and fought with rage and hatred.

rest at:

http://www.dawn.com/2000/10/06/op.htm#3

AAM-UL-FEEL; THE YEAR OF THE ELEPHANT

All day today I have been thinking about Mohammed Rami ad-Dorra. For some of us it might be just another name; the 8 year old who was murdered right in front of his father and the whole world three days ago.

Please forgive my jay walking today; I cannot focus my mind on anything. I have no idea where to start this post. The focus keeps on shifting from Mohammad to Commander Laila Khalid to firefly Nada Al Husseini; George Habash to Yasser Arafat; Hamas to Fatah; Amal to Hizballah; Popular Front to PLO; Yasmin Shaheed to Yehya Ayyash Shaheed.

I also think of the little birds like Mohammed; the Children of Paradise; Our 8 or 9 year old Ghazi Salahuddins, our Tipu Shaheed,and our Ali Asghars of this time. Who could have thought that these little Ababeels could bring the Abraha of this time to his knees with their slingshots?

Our little angels! we believe in you. Now that you are closer to Him, please tell Him not to judge us all from the few among us who can blow their trumpets and drums louder than our voices. They tell me that your Jihad is useless; it has nothing to do in this day and age. They tell me that, ``it is economy stupid``. May be I am stupid. Perhaps I ask stupid questions. When I ask them how many dollars it costs to buy freedom they laugh at me. When I ask them which stock exchange deals in ``self-determination`` they wink at each other. When I ask them which ATM dispenses off ``self-respect to a nation`` they look the other way. May be I am stupid.

They tell me His word is old and useless now. It should be discarded just like their old shoes and clothes that they throw out in the United Way canister on a sunny weekend. I wonder if they have thrown their mothers and fathers in those canisters too since they are old and fragile and useless too?

My fallen angels! my Mujahids! Tell Him that Abraha has brought his army again. Is it the year of the Elephant again?

re fairdinkum 22

you claim ``...massacres of Palestinians in sabra and shatila where the Israeli soldiers massacred women and children. ``

A check at history will reveal that the said massacres were carried out by the Phalangist militia of the Gemayel brothers while it was finally halted only when the Isrelis intervened to stop the Arabs slaughtering the Arabs. It is not surprising that the 30,000 Syrian forces didn`t lift a finger to stop the Phalangists: after all the Lebanese Phalangist militia was practically created by the Syrians in 1976 as a counterweight to the Druze/PLO alliance in the civil war. And the Syrians were only too happy to continue the massacre in the same two camps and at Brouj al Brajneh the next year. Of course, it is quite okay when the SYrians kill, isn`t it?

As for comparing the Mukti Bahini to the PLO thugs, give me ONE example where the Mukti Bahini blew up third party innocent victims at foreign airports? Or hijacked planes? Or blew up buses full of school children? Or kill Pakistani athletes in the Olympics?

And for goodness sake, get real about comparing the IDF with the Pakistani Eastern Command. A million(three million by Bengali estimates) dead, two hundred thousand women violated, half the university professoriat butchered in cold blood? That happened in Dhaka, not in Tel Aviv or Beirut.

Good. Then a question naturally pops up in ones mind.What should we call a person who wrongfully accuses others of doing something that they didnt? Should we call him a ``liar`` or he gets to keep his status de jure of an ``accuser``?

sigalph235 #29

Dear Sigalph,

You say:

``Of course, it is quite okay when the SYrians kill, isn`t it?``

No, it is not okay to kill innocent men, women and children...and that was the whole point of my post #22. I guess you missed it in the flood of emotions. Your assertion that massacres in sabra and shatila camps were carried out on behalf of Syrians, and Israelis only intervened to stop the bloodshed is questionable. Perhaps we are looking at two different versions of history.

Palestinians have endured a lot more oppression than Bengalis – no comparison between PLO and Mukti Bahenis of course… The situation of Bengalis and Palestinians is also different. Palestinians have lost everything – their country, their homes their businesses their families their culture… They have been living as refugees for decades. In such situations there is always a possibility of splinter groups resorting to violence to get world attention. Look at the situation in Northern Ireland. However, despite what IRA did, Jerry Adams is still invited to participate in peace talks. Political wing of IRA has been a part of mainstream political process – and all this with the blessings of none other than US of A.

It seems that you have a dictionary written by an Israeli :) …..only those acts of violence that PLO or its splinter groups have committed are included in the definition of terrorism. I might have to pull out a dictionary written by Gen. Tikka Khan …:)

As for the atrocities committed by Pakistani army in East Pakistan (former), please have a look at my comments re HRC report... No human being deserves to get shot, or raped, or made homeless or forced to live as a refugee. Perhaps, you are young and emotional, but you will eventually find out, and understand (I hope you will) that the misery of human beings (including Palestinians/Muslims) is not something one should make fun of. Not all Arabs deserve to get killed. Not all Muslims are bad people.

Re: Sabra and Shatila massacres

``Israel invaded southern Lebanon in June 1982 (the ``Peace for Galilee War``), instructing the largely Christian Lebanese Phalange faction - which had received ISRAELI ARMS and TRAINING - not to participate in the fighting; if Phalangist misbehaviour occurred, it would be dealt with by the Israel Defence Force. In August the Phalangist leader (and president-elect of Lebanon), Bashir Gemayel, was assassinated, and Israeli forces moved into West Beirut. They agreed that the Phalangists, rather than themselves, would enter the refugee camps at Sabra and Shatila, where, after the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) fighting forces had been evacuated from Beirut by an international flotilla, many Palestinian women, children, and old men were seeking refuge.

There was some opposition to this proposal among Israeli senior officers who feared a ``bloodbath``; but it was eventually settled that the Phalangist forces would enter the camps, having been warned by Israeli commanders not to harm the inhabitants. Nevertheless, the Phalangists carried out a series of massacres of the inhabitants. Eventually, the Israeli authorities established a Commission of Inquiry presided over by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and the Kahan Report was produced`` (Leslie C Green - the Kahan report)

The whole report is available at :

http://www.hebron.com/massacres/sabra/massacres-sabra-kahan-commision.html

And this is Israeli version of the events that took place...not a PLO version...not an Arab version ... not a Muslim version...

No where in the report is Syria mentioned as a party (directly or indirectly) to the crime against humanity at sabra and shatile refugee camps. Israeli senior officers despite knowing what the intentions of Phalangists were, allowed them to enter the camps where WOMEN AND CHILDREN were seeking refuge.

How could this happen without the approval of Israeli forces who were in direct command of Phalangists at that time?

I repeat ISRAELIS WERE IN DIRECT COMMAND OF PHALANGISTS(Christian Lebanese militia) AT THE TIME OF SABRA AND SHATILA MASSACRES.