Beware of Ariel Morons and Protect Your Children!

YLH: Instead of getting mad and coming back with a fiery response, I hope you will take the time to reflect upon the feedback provided by Yme #100. I also hope you will then attempt to change some of the things he mentions. If not today, one day you will thank him/her for it since that will mark your graduation to manhood.

This is my earlier post in entirety ... which was written in reply to YME .....

YME #76

Spoken like a true ``INDIAN`` Muslim. Pakistan is for Pakistanis alone ... no matter

strongly Pan Islamic we are.

The sentiments that you have exhibited are what stop you from being accepted in

India. Pakistan was made for a concrete reason and not for Muslims around the world to

crowd it!

Let me say to you what Mr. Jinnah had said to some Nawab in 1920 ``Every Indian

Musulman should be an Indian first and then a Musulman``.Be loyal to your country

(India) and let us be loyal to ours.

And by the same token dont condone any violence on any side... by any side ... be it in

Bangladesh, Palestine or Kashmir!

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

SameerJB #92
``Is there any preference for Indian Americans, between GW and Al Gore?``

I don`t know enough to venture a guess, really. Ferozk and your analyses make a lot of sense regarding Indian/US policy on matters of common interest, including the ME. The mutual backscratching equation in international relations where India is concerned is getting more complicated, I would humbly agree. ``Benign neglect`` was simpler to handle.

Sadhana

t#88
Weighing in against all inclination. I can understand your extreme disgust, having myself felt disgust at many posts on chowk. Some posts are personally insulting, some are generally insulting, sometimes its the abstract ideas expressed which are offensive. I`m sure this is a common and mutual feeling among chowkwallahs :-) which willnot go away. The so-called synergy of a board brings out the best and worst in us.

Re` the particular issue of a particular poster I think both may actually have a lot more commonality in fundamentals than you think and maybe the issue is prejudice or style. So all I can suggest is take a vacation from mutual disdain, though its a lot easier said than done. And sorry if I just added to the glorious tradition of offensive posts :-).

Sadhana

Ylh 91 Re:yme 76

dear ylh either you have stopped taking your anti-psychotics or they are becoming refractory, because it is quite evident your delusional thinking is getting worse.

case in point calling yme an ``Indian muslim``.....

OEY PAGAL DEYA PUTRA,OEY TUN MERI SULTAN RAHI WALLEY GHAIRAT NOON LALKARIA EY,OEY TILYER.

I could use such language but i think i will refrain as this will only plunge you deeper into your delirium.

what makes you the sole arbiter of pakistaniness.people have been very very kind to you,but you seem to have the small heart.people of pakistan have a big heart they have accomodated refugees from India,Bangladesh,Afghanistan,Iran and many other lands.

Your pettiness is demeaning to the people of Pakistan,same people who gave refuge to your ancestors if they `really came from Iran`.if you have a problem with pakistanis go back to your Iran.

`this is a pakistani site leave us alone`.HA HA.

what kind of khudra talk is that.

You want to be a liberal then learn to accept and respect other`s points of view.You want to be a Pakistani then learn some adabe meezbani.

WE have given our blood and sweat to the the arabs

time is fast approaching when we will claim our due and that will be done with right thinking arabs and afghanis and pakistanis.

Re: SameerJB

Yes; India is looking to southeast Asia more than the middle east, but my intention/observation was more to the point that India, if it wants to play a bigger role, will have to start articulating a well defined stance on most issues and it cannot no longer remain aloof from the issues.

Where ever India looks will be determined by India and Indian perceptions may be influenced by others, but India has start ``playing the game``.

The simple point is that India, if it wants to enter the majors, has to realize that the ticket of admission to the Great Power Club is going to be costly. As far as India is concerned, the attainment of great/regional power status is not the problem; the real problem and challenge is sustaining it! India will have to compromise on certain issues and the question is, can it afford a compromise, which is not in its interests.

Ciao!

Re: Yawaah Latifay Hamdani # 962

1. You are projecting that soon Gandhi`s legacy will be discarded as irrelevant and Jinnah`s will be celebrated the world over. Listen Pappu, that may be your wish but to start trumpeting your wish as a forgone eventuality supports a perception that many have come to hold... that you my friend are a little cuckoo in the head. I may wish that I win the next powerball and that Cameron Diaz & Elizabeth Shue will orally pleasure each of my big toes but if I go around proclaiming the inevitability of such a scenario with a lot of passion I am bound to end up in a strait jacket. Talking of forgone eventualities... you might want to consider some padded cells & straitjackets in your future.

2. My friend you have claimed the `secular nature of Islam` on many occasions. I am regrettably unable to provide you with a proof of when you said that since you have the tendency to post 500 times a day and I have absolutely no desire to look for your piece of turd comment in the sea of crap that you fart up on this forum every day.

3. You are claiming that Pakistan is a more moderate state than India. Sure... and I am a blue monkey`s momma. Of course every sane person on the planet who claims that an exclusionary system is less desirable than an inclusive one is a complete raving lunatic and you are the smart one. I often wonder what your remedy might be. Tell me... have you tried whacking off? Maybe that will help!

4. You say Musharraf is a secular leader. Now go run to the nearest Barnes & Noble and buy a dictionary because it`s fairly evident you don`t have one. How can the leader of an Islamic Republic be secular? The man who is supposed to uphold nay administer and enforce the laws of the land which are the exact antitheses of the world secular turns out to be secular?!! The oath swore by the constitutional leader of Pakistan begins as follows:

In the name of Allah, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful. I, ____________, do swear solemnly that l am a Muslim and believe in the Unity and Oneness of Almighty Allah, the Books of Allah, the Holy Quran being the last of them, the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the last of the Prophets and that there can be no Prophet after him, the Day of Judgment, and all the requirements and teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunnah.

And he is secular. Hmmm I see!

5. You claim that I am devoid of any proper and unbiased knowledge.

Dear Yawaah,

O wise one, O bearer of unbiased and objective opinions, O possessor of verily proper knowledge, please guide me from darkness to enlightenment. I pledge henceforth to follow your shining example to pursue objective knowledge & pronounce unbiased opinion. Over the years you have shone the path towards this goal that is most unattainable to mere mortals but has been imperiously conquered by your erudite self. You have lead the way by untiringly propagating the following unbiased opinions:

Jinnah good Gandhi bad.

Jinnah truly respected world over, Gandhi ridiculed the world over.

Pakistan moderate, India Fundamentalist.

Pakistan`s Islamic governance secular, India`s secular governance religious.

It is plain as day to see why such intellectual gems as above has brought you much credibility and utter respect on this forum.

If any man, woman or child is distraught in their inability to make objective analysis; let them be told of the great Yawaah Latifay Hamdani who treads the hallowed halls of chowk.com handing out very very frequent objective analysis.

Yours in awe

Latif Chappu.

FerozK: Just browsed through www.startfor.com. Some very interesting and worth reading stuff. If GW is more influenced by Pentagon and CIA, then Musharraf and company would love to see him winning. In my poor judgement, the order of political priorites for GW would be in the order of white, hispanic, asian and black countries whereas democrats were sort of prioritizing as white, (asian=hispanic), black countries. In my opinion, Asian-Americans have nothing to worry about with the outcome of election because they are no longer vulnerable, due to their demography, valueable contributions and economic potential at this stage. It would be intersting for people to know that the second or third richest Texan is a Sikh guy, named Sanjiv Sindhu, owner of ITWO. He ranks behind Michael Dell. I do not know if he is politically active or not.

I liked your assessment of Indo-Israel relations. You must also consider, strong support for Palestinians within India, not just among Muslim population but among the left-of-center political parties as well. Yasser Arafat has always been well recieved in India and a fact largely ignored in the western media of significant, educated, well respected and affluent Christian population of Palestinians. To the best of my knowledge, Palestinians are least likely to fall for Islamic fundamentalism. Moreover, a good relations with Palestinian, helps India in its relationship with rest of the Arab world. I believe the current warm-up of Indo-Israeli relations are in part economic, in part BJP not being pro-Arabs and largely due to a side-effect of Indo-US relations.

India is really looking forward to playing much larger geo-strategic role than overly involved in a conflict between four million Israelis versus four million Palestinians. There are more Indians that both of these groups within 10 square miles of any Indian urban center. Psychologically, large Asian countries are not obsessed with tiny hot spots around the world, particularly when they are not racial or religious kin with no envy or guilt feelings towards these people. At present, India eyes Indian ocean and south-east asia lot more than middle east. I personally like to side with India in the matters not relating to Pakistan and thus my assessment might be subjective.

Re: SameerJb et

www.stratfor.com/asia/commentary/0007052350.htm

Remember what I was saying about Pakistan`s military and the Pentagon; read this!

FYI, I always make sure that I know what I am taking about! :)

Ciao!

Re: SameerJB

If I have to guess, I would think that the Indians would prefer Al Gore, because since he is a Democrat, and the Democrats are close with the State Department, his presidency would encourage the present diplomatic rapprochement with India.

The Republicans, on the other hand, closely identify with national security issues - Pentagon and CIA and thus, would favor traditional American policy options.

India wants the United States to see its utility, as an ally, in more than just a security context, vis a vis the realpolitik in Asia, and thus, would favor mutually beneficial relations based on a diplomatic tete-a-tete.

Demographically, the Pakistanis being conservative would generally support the GOP. Democrats have traditionally favored India, because of their close ties with the State Department and the Republicans have favored Pakistan due to their ties with the Pentagon!

Remember, it was Zinni Musharraf first called...! Pentagon has close ties in the Pakistani military due to the extensive UN peacekeeping functions Pak Army has undertaken and there are still ``active informal contacts`` between the two!

State and Pentagon do not always read from the same page and so, if the American foreign policy changes, in the next 12-18 months, it will be a result of a ``turf fight`` between State and Pentagon, with other clusters acting as a fulcrum to tilt the balance one way or the other!

Also; Karl Inderfuth is the protege of Brezenski (sp), who was a protege of Kissenger! Kissenger has a soft spot in his heart for Pakistan, because of Pakistan`s role in Sino-American detente. Brezenski was the author of the NSC memo which started the CIA covert operation in Afghanistan agaisnt the Soviets and lately has been saying that America needs to separte the Islam as a religion from Islam as it is being used for political aims! In other words, he is suggesting that the United States cannot and should not demonize the entire religion just because a few people have a twisted interpretion of Islam.

Soon after he had said this, Inderfuth came out with his interviews saying that India and Pakistan need to re-start the talks on Kashmir and stressed Clinton`s ``Four R`s``, which are applicable to both India and Pakistan!

In other words, the emerging United States options on Kashmir are leaning towards a status quo and that would favor India. However, this also means that the American pressure on India will increase to talk with Pakistan, because the Americans realize that Kashmir has a slim chance of going to India short of a war.

India is presently having a hard time in its foreign policy, because the it is quite undecided how to rationalize its stand on the present Middle East sitution. If it supports Israel, it irks the Arabs and if it favors Palestinians, it will anger Tel Aviv. India cannot afford neutrality, because since the IR is about perceptions and not reality, the other side will see India`s silence as a tacit endorsement of the other side and remember the insult for a long time to come!

The problem is that India, having broken out of Nehru`s non-alignment, a brilliant strategic arrangement, now cannot afford to sit on the fence, because if it wants closer ties with Washington, it will have to support the United States on key issues and in this case, that runs the risk of alientating the Arabs and the Muslim nations. If the Arabs were shying away from Pakistan, because of its fundlementalist tendencies, the Indian support of the United States, seen as supporting Israel, will once again bring the Arabs closer to Pakistan.

The Indians have their work cut out, because in this particular case, they will not be able to have their cake and eat it too! India, if it wants to a be power in Asia, will have to spell out its intentions publically and that is some thing the Indians might not like to do. Pakistan may be isolated internationally, but India if it continues to hedge its bets, will soon find itself being marginalized as a major player in IR, because the sine quo non of major IR players is their intentions and not their ability to please all of the world all of the time!

The price for Pakistan of being an American ally was too high, in hindsight, and the question is; is India willing to pay that price by publically identifying its interests with the United States? India cannot be non-aligned and still be America`s ``natural ally``. India has to opt for a decision and soon!

Ciao!

temporal: SILENCE OF THE INDIANS a la SILENCE OF THE WIMPS

WARY OR CONDONING? - it could be neither - try a fundamental difference in the p.o.v./world-view between the two sides (since you are calling for one side`s reaction) - `one` Indian responded to the post that Jay`s mail `SILENCE OF THE WIMPS` referred to. No one bothered to ask for the Pakistanis` protest.

Some treat writing on this forum as a pastime, others show off their linguistic and other talents, some approach the arguments seriously, and some others consistently and fervently give any issue a religious/nationalistic twist.

You talk about dementia - rationalizing and rationally arguing the merits of a line that says it is proper to kill the `non-believers` is dementia to some, here and now in the 21st century. There`s posts one wants to write about, want to respond to, but doesnt bother to sometimes, even if they mean much to him/her. Sometime ago a couple Indians chided Jay for his posts - would you be happy if they keep doing it everytime he posts a politically incorrect msg?

Somebody mentioned the censoring policies of the board - if your temperate bosom is heaving with resentment from Jay`s irksome posts, regulate all the posts.

PS: I still dont find the Pakistani silence about the mail that `SILENCE OF THE WIMPS` referred to, defeaning - but then thats my p.o.v.

Please read ``wouldn`t`` instead of would in the first line of my last post. What a terrible mistake, delivering exactly the opposite message than what I meant. I do too many mistakes while using my laptop, may be due to the compact Keyboard. My apologies, FerozK.

FerozK: What can I say? I am sure you would like me thanking you over and over. But this last post was such a sysyematic and in-depth analysis that I wish to thank you again for taking the time out to write about the overlapping and counter interests of the five pillars of US foreign policy. Never looked at it that way before. From now on, I will always keep this information in mind when thinking about US foreign policy.

Sadhana: I watched both of the debates also. I did notice GW mentioning Arab-Americans and immediately thought about Michigan with large Arab-American population is currently a toss-up and very important for GW to win. He is not expected to win NY or CA and has to make up the losses in large states with victories in Southern and Western States. Moreover, one rich Arab-American Lawyer from Texas, named Joe Jamail, has contributed well during his compaigns for Governorship in Texas. However, once President, he will have to consider all the competing and collaborating forces of five pillars. I do not expect any major shift in US foreign policy, not at least in his first year in office. Is there any preference for Indian Americans, between GW and Al Gore?

YME #76

Spoken like a true ``INDIAN`` Muslim. Pakistan is for Pakistanis alone ... no matter strongly Pan Islamic we are.

The sentiments that you have exhibited are what stop you from being accepted in India. Pakistan was made for a concrete reason and not for Muslims around the world to crowd it!

Let me say to you what Mr. Jinnah had said to some Nawab in 1920 ``Every Indian Musulman should be an Indian first and then a Musulman``.Be loyal to your country (India) and let us be loyal to ours.

And by the same token dont condone any violence on any side... by any side ... be it in Bangladesh, Palestine or Kashmir!

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

Temporal

Sir you are right. It just shows the amount of hatred this man Jay has for Pakistan. Interestingly enough it is this same person who poses as ``Mohajir``. There seems to be systematic campaign by this individual against us. Ofcourse only an Indian would be so obsessed as to go on wasting his/her time like he does.

The difference between my interaction and his is that I am interacting as a Pakistani on a site discussing Pakistani issues. As you can see I have seldom replied to an article dealing with Indian issues because like my great friend Prem from India I realize that we have our own problems in our respective countries and we should not concern ourselves with others` problems.

Yasser Hamdani

Temporal :

Since you asked -- I do not address Jay because I think it is hopeless and an utter waste of time. Obviously his glee over the four Pakistanis who died in Kuwait are the emotions of a monster. One should not be gleeful over the death of anyone, even one who was justly convicted of murder and executed.

So, yes, I could condemn him. But all my previous experience on electronic forums is that certain people are best ignored, because communication with them is impossible. Even the attention of condemnation is too much. So take this to be past, present and future of my disavowal of all such people.

I hope it is also evident that despite noisy and vehement disagreement that I have with other folks, we still believe we are communicating (at least, I do).

-arun gupta

SILENCE OF THE INDIANS --- WARY OR CONDONING?


My nomination for Ariel-Chowk ---JAY THACKERAY!


Here is his recent post in entirety:
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