Beware of Ariel Morons and Protect Your Children!

In response to mcgupta (Reply # 66)

Dear Arun:

With reference to Robert Payne, you wrote: ``The Jallianwala Bagh massacre was on April 13, 1919. Because of British censorship, the news leaked to the country only much later; e.g., Gandhi learned about it only in June.”

In his “The Life and Death of Mahatma Gandhi,” Payne (1969) wrote: “So tight was the censorship imposed on Amritsar that even Gandhi did not know the “full extent” of the massacre until June” (emphasis added). I

I am sure that you have unintendedly misrepresented Payne`s statement.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. I agree with Fairdinkum’s post (Reply # 67), and I have no doubt in my mind that General Dyer was a Moron par excellence.

Macgupta

So you admit that the Movie Gandhi is full of C-R-A-P and Historically inaccurate?

Yasser Hamdani

Re: Krashid

No; there is no casual link between the Turkish flight and the price of oil. The Turks flew into Baghdad to give a hint to the Americans not to pass a legislation labelling the killing of the the Armenians (sp?) by the Turks in World War I as an act of genocide!

The Americans are lifting their sanctions against Iraq, because they are sensing that they might be isolated if the French and the Russians manage to reestablish diplomatic ties with Iraq and since France is the president of the European Union at the present time, EU`s diplomatic rapproachement with Iraq would be a serious blow to the American post Gulf War Iraq containment policy.

Remember, France has always followed an independent foreign policy from the Americans. I think, in a strategic sense, you will see a detente between France and Russia against American interests in Europe. Despite what the American foreign policy might hope for, it cannot alter the reality of European histro-chronology, which suggests that Europe has always been dominated by balance of power arrangements. In this sense, European power will be diffused and it will graviate to those nations, who carve an independent niche for themselves exclusive of American interests in Europe.

In this sense, Turkey assumes a critical importance, because it politically straddles Europe and the Middle East and the way Turkey tilts will determine how the next, post Cold War, European balance of power arrangement will be shaped and what will the the political interests, or the fulcrum, upon which it will rest.

Therefore, the dice are rolling and American interests need to be redefined and it is because of this, that the American sanctions regime against Iraq in in a state of flux; that is, it is being reconsidered!

Hope this helps!

Ciao!

arun #66

I have read several accounts of Jallianwala Bagh. However, I have never read an account, not even from historians sympathetic to British, who blame Gandhi, or the people gathered at Jallianwala Bagh for the massacre. Even if people held their ground (and I like to believe that they did and defied the oppressors with their valor), it was their right to do so in their own country. Irrespective of what Gandhi said or did or stood for, innocent men, women, children, and elderly who laid down their lives at Jallianwala Bagh are a constant source of inspiration for the people of subcontinent. I find it distasteful and disturbing to hear nonsense about such events. If people can’t appreciate what Jallianwala Bagh stands for, they should at least refrain from making foolish comments.

[If you are not interested in Jallianwala Bagh, please skip.]

It is being written that some students of history might argue that :

``The people at Jallianwallah massacre stood their ground and did not cooperate because they were the part of the non cooperation Movement.``

Going primarily by historian Robert Payne`s account of events and several accounts available on the Web :

The Jallianwala Bagh massacre was on April 13, 1919. Because of British censorship, the news leaked to the country only much later; e.g., Gandhi learned about it only in June. The British began investigating the incident only in August, and in October 1919 started a formal inquiry. So, many details have been lost.

1. Accounts differ in details of why people had assembled at the Bagh. It was at least in part because it was Baisakhi day, and many of the people are believed to have been villagers visiting Amritsar. The British had issued an order on April 12 banning assemblies, but it was not publicized, and few people knew about it.

2. The crowd was given no warning before Dyer ordered his soldiers to open fire. Indeed, according to Payne, Dyer repeatedly told the British Commission of Inquiry that he had intended to fire on the crowd long before he arrived on the scene.

3. Even if the crowd had been asked to disperse, it could not have. Jallianwala Bagh was an open space in the middle of constructed area with only a few narrow lanes leading into it. Dyer had come with two armored cars, the entrances were too narrow for the cars to enter the Bagh and were left outside. Moreover, Dyer and his soldiers occupied the main entrance -- so where was the crowd to go ? When the firing started there was no place for people to go. Some tried to scale the surrounding walls but were picked off by the sharp shooting soldiers.

So, to put it politely, the assertion that the massacred people had stood their ground because they were part of the non-cooperation movement is a bunch of baloney. No student of history would suggest such C-R-A-P.

-arun gupta

Dear YLH,

I apologise for this appendage to my previous reply. After re-reading your initial posts, I just want to re-emphasise and correct you on something. The gathering at Jallianwallabagh was because of Vasakhi, the Sikh holy day. It was not a political meeting or part of any non-cooperation movement. Dyer subsequently said he had wanted to ``teach the Indians a lesson``. If it hadnt been there he would have done it at another gathering in Punjab.....my own suspicion is that he planned it knowing that at Vasakhi people would congregate there.

I accept though that the major thrust of your initial post was mis-interpreted. I just wanted to correct you on that point.

regards,

Harpreet

YLH#,

re: Jallianwallahbagh:

The Sikhs were at the Golden Temple at the time of Vasakhi. Jallianwallabagh is an enclosed space, the only entrance/exit was blocked off by the Gunmen. They did not ``stand their ground``, they had nowhere to go. If you visit the memorial you can still see the scratch marks on the walls where women,children and men had desperately tried to scramble out before having a bullet put through them.

It is a very emotional and thought-provoking place to visit, right next to the Golden Temple Harimandir Sahib, the first stone of which was laid by a Muslim.....I think you are a good person who is easily provoked and i dont think it is your natural inclination to think of people as ``scum``, and I would urge you to go to Amritsar one day to see it for yourself.

regards,

Harpreet

Ayelash

I personally think people like Ossama Bin Laden should be put on a leash.

But then hate mongers like you shouldnt be treated any differently either!

Yasser

Macgupta

Had you read my post you would know all the answers. I dont think any of my reasoning ogf the type you have described. The people at Jallianwallah massacre stood their ground and didnot cooperate because they were the part of the non cooperation Movement. Now seriously if you ask MY OPINION... MY OPINION IS THE FOLLOWING...

``The only person to blame in a murder/massacre is the one who commits it or orders it``

So personally I dont think Gandhi is responsible...

When I talked about the blame being on Gandhi I was actually using a very Indian logic... go figure...

Pakistan Zindabad!

aylesh #60,

Whether you like it or not, most of the present day ``Ariel Morons`` are NOT Muslims (with the exception of Saddam Hussein). I know it`s a hard fact to digest but the picture`s pretty clear.

By the way, could you tell me where ``thousands`` of people have been killed by Muslim terrorists?

Don`t say Kashmir, because that`s a war with casualties on both sides.

Thousands of Muslims were killed in Bosnia by the Serbs (remember Milosovic?), hundreds (if not thousands) by the Israeli army.

what do u say about Osama Bin laden......isnt he not an ariel moron per your defination. As long as the person is Islamic, it doesnt matter to you whether he is a terrorist or not.

You just have to see that a twelve year old muslim guy died in Palestine. What about thousands of innocent people killed by islamic terrorists everywhere in the world.

Bloody hypocrate

In reply to ylh --

If you want to believe that Gandhi had a craving for popularity and control, was self-centered and selfish, had an obsession with holiness, history and religion, thrived on other people`s misery, was blood-thirsty, had no heart or brain, did not think of the repercussions of his actions, got innocent people killed for selfish reasons -- each is a matter of analyzing a personality and coming up with motivations. As you pointed out,

``This opens an another argument... how can we so confidently make judgements about someone`s personality.``

So, at least at this level of discourse, these are purely matters of opinion. Frankly, your opinion doesn`t bother me.

However, cause and effect is very much a matter of fact. ``Jallianwallah massacre can be argued to be one such incident`` where Gandhi caused the deaths of innocents -- is not an issue of opinion, and I chose to contest it. How Gandhi caused Dyer to fire on an unarmed assembly of people is a mystery that you will have to explain. Your explanations so far are of the nature ``Hamid woke up at sunrise morning; therefore Hamid must have caused the sun to rise``.

-arun gupta

ylh #43

How did you get the idea. I also think the same way as you regarding Jinnah. Secular, pragmatic, fighting for interest of Muslims of South Asia (and not for Islam)

sb#47

Sorry quick reading by me.

Feroz#

Thanks for the detailed reply. Another question?

:-). Turkey has also flown its flight to Iraq (I think). Is there some connection with rise in oil price and face saving lifting of sanction by America on Iraq. Or the French, Russian, etc are finding it an opportunity to put their feet in the region. (As I believe that conscience of West wakes up with the rise in Oil price).

RE: Syed Ahmad

Thank you Syed for the clarification. I concur with all your points now.

RE: Urstruly


you misunderstand me, - I donot condone the savagery and the barbarity of the Mukthi Bahini atrocities, - they should be brought to justice
as well- but here are some interesting observations,....

1. The Mukthi Bahini were armed brigands, - supported by an external power, - to compare their conduct to that of a professional army ( that too under the banner of Islam) legitimized by the power of a state, does not hold water.

2. Prior to the clampdown in Dhaka, the inserruction was mainly between the Mukti Bahini and the Pakistani army - they were few collateral casualties, - After Tikka khan`s infamous orders of butchering all political opposition did the whole situation get out of hand, by proptional retalition on unarmed civilians by both parties...

3. The irony of the situation is that after the fall - the army, aware of the animosity towards them, secured itself from the Indians by retaining their arms ( the Indians who were former colleagues were gracious enough to do so),
The non-Bengali population faced the wrath of the
Mukthi Bahini and their murdering cohorts....

4. It is a poor excuse not to bring these murderers to justice, just becuase the Bengalis refuse to punish their genocidal maniacs. The immeasurable harm caused by these people to the national psyche canot even be calculated. Murderers and rapists under the cannon of any law Islamic or otherwise have to brought to justice regardless of what our aversaries do to their own.
Nations are based on moral imperatives....

5. SInce these guys went unpunished, some were were even rewarded, all future political contingencies in the state of Pakistan became national security issues and were suppressed with similar brutality, be it Balchistan, Sind or even the extrajudicial and custodial killings in Karachi.

6. To condemn everyone in the Army is also not correct, - the army command was not a monolith, there were people like Admiral Ahsan, and Sahihbzada Yakub Khan who resigned and were demoted because they refused to implement genocidal policies.

As someone of pakistani heritage, it is important for us to clean house first, becuase it gives us the moral legitimacy to pursue other tyrants.

The Indians have their own skeletons like Punjab, Delhi, Kashmir and Assam to name a few but whether atrocities are committed by a democracy like Israel or India ora dictatorship in Pakistan does not legitimize their actions....

There are enough Ariel Morons in all our nations....

In reply to Satish #48 : The only objective meaning of fascism that I could find so far is that it is a name for specific political phenomena in Europe in the first half of the twentieth century, the exemplars of which are Mussolini`s Italy and Hitler`s Germany.

Apart from that, virtually anyone can be dubbed fascist. The only feature needed is to be anti-Marxist, or anti-materialist. Anyone that appeals to anything not materialist -- spiritual, religious, national, ethnic -- is potentially a fascist.

I did some reading, and am fasci-nated by what the scholars have come up with. Fascists may believe in having a charismatic leader or may respect democratic governance. They may respect the traditional powers of army, church, etc., or they may be against them. They may hark to glorious past, or they may be working towards a glorious future. ``Fascism`` contains so many opposites that it is virtually a meaningless category.

The use of ``fascism`` is then to smear by association. When X uses ``fascist`` to describe his political opponent, he might mean one thing; but what most people hear is ``Nazi, concentration camp, burning of the Reichstag, holocaust`` etc..

X can ``honestly`` argue that he didn`t mean all that.

So, let us be very clear about the BJP and its allied organizations, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, Vishwa Hindu Parishad, RSS, etc. -- calling them fascist merely obscures the issues. These organizations promote a brand of intolerance which is based on the notion that since Islam and Christianity came to India from outside,India`s Muslims` and Christians` loyalties to India are suspect.

Whether or not this is fascism, whether or not there are historical parallels to be drawn to Germany, Italy, Spain; or to ``fascist`` movements in Japan, Russia, France, etc. is to muddle the issue.

It is also hardly relevant as to whether worse exists elsewhere in India`s neighborhood or in the rest of the world.

The issue is whether this is a myth, whether this is cruel and evil, whether this is simply wrong, and whether we should oppose it; and my answer to all this is YES. Unless the BJP unequivocally renounces this part of their ideology, the party does not deserve our support.

-arun gupta