Defend the Country, not its Government

There should be no element of surprise.When army takes over it does so for its own aggandisement,only the weaknesses of the political system/erring politicians provides a peg to hang onto supplemented by the slogan of patriotism.It is comical that except Yahya khan,each mily-ruler found ready-made approbation by the supreme court of the country.

As the people are not a free people,anybody can vandalise/brutalise them.The civilian leadership like NS or BB can only add to their sorrows.God help Pakistan!

SB #208

Thanks.

Yes I believe in do as Romans do.

sadna #205 -

``I sometimes sense in those who protest India`s Kashmir policy(and with whom I often agree) that they donot count the real and recurring cost which willresult by yielding to violent tactics of terrorists/religious fanatics.``

I hasten to say that I think it`s a poor show by the govt. to yield to hijackers and kidnappers.

(there should have been protests organized against releasing the prisoners, be it the militants or the smugglers).

But, if we are going to take umbrage at any criticism of India`s handling of the Kashmir issue, why, we could be the Pakistani Joe on the chowk! :-) More seriously, (like you said) if there`s a preception that the groups criticising the Army & the Govt are not giving a complete picture, there`s place in the media for other groups to provide alternates for the news that reaches the people. Their reputation, of course, will count when it comes to who the people will trust...

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krashid - imbecility cuts across various fields, you seem to be particularly enamored of Biology...

Sadna #200

Sorry for the post.

I thought you are a human.

I did not know you are Indian and not human.

Anjum

#199

Excellent post. Could`nt have said it better myself.

Assad_K #203
I`m not seeing dreams of a liberated Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir, I`m saying that if Pakistan wants to dictate terms to India wrt Indian Kashmir, then India ought to do the same wrt Pakistani Kashmir. Get it?

You may be not tempted to go to India and kill anyone, but you were saying that my point of view and the Lashkar`s are comparable. There is no doubt that THEY do cross over with arms and ammunition to kill people, but that doesnot seem to hold much significance to you. So I`m thinking it would be OK with you if I did the same and then I would have soem leverage. My other point, which is not the only one you didnot get was that Lashkar doesnot seem to consider nonMuslims to be human beings. So what do they want with so many Kashmiris who are not Muslims??

I have made no claim that if the Foreign Hand goes away, Kashmir will become paradise. Read my posts #200 #202 before making such an assertion. Yes, I can see that YOU think a plebiscite will magically make a paradise out of Kashmir. About some choice better than none, well see my post #200. The plebiscite as Pakistan demands doesnot constitute a real choice and only hypocrites will call it self-determination. `better` choice than `no choice` : another dependence on a magical formula. Lord Avebury called it the `big-bang` theory and said he didnot believe it would solve any problems. Let me put it this way, Kashmir will be less of a hell if the Foreign Hand goes away than if a plebiscite is held. Thats the real choice.

In any case, India will not consent to holding a plebiscite, scold you never so loudly. So what are you going to do about it?

Sadhana

sb #202
Sure, India is a free country, you are free to protest any action of anyone. I was telling you my point of view wrt J&K. My assessment is that local politicians and administration goof up matters and then call in the Army for jobs they are not trained for. The present or last Army Chief ? even made a few statements some months ago about how this practice ought to be discontinued.

And as far as I know Indians have been beating their breasts about J&K right from 1989. I havenot heard of human-rights groups being branded anti-State. And yes, the Army should be definately be held accountable, as I said in post #202. I consider infringments by state institutions to very serious. But dealing with our own wrongs is a seperate(and important) matter, making no protest about `others` is another. I sometimes sense in those who protest India`s Kashmir policy(and with whom I often agree) that they donot count the real and recurring cost which will result by yielding to violent tactics of terrorists/religious fanatics. Veerappan is a very good example of self-perpetuating capitulation to violent methods.

Re the national media : I remember when there were a few starvation deaths in Koraput(Orissa), the newspapers just reported what transpired in the Orissa Assembly, allegations and counter-allegations related to the cases, not one reporter actually went to the locations to verify the facts and report on the actual story. That was some years ago, I hope and believe things are slightly better now.

Sadhana

Sadna #202 -

There is no such involvement of the ordinary people that you are talking about, yet - the ordinary people only act and gherao the govt when their kith and kin are in danger, like in the recent hijacking case, and the current Veerappan episode.

About our media that the Army supposedly has to contend with - the Army has been in J&K before the 90s - why have the Indians suddenly started beating their breasts about the J&K situation only now? How many of us know whats happening in NE? What has the patriotic and concerned citizenry been doing about the discontentment there? Do they even acknowledge the trouble there yet? Whats stopping the media from taking the trouble in NE to the masses?

You think that the Indian Army shouldnt be branded as the sole erring party - I think that the human-rights groups shouldnt be branded anti-State and anti-people either, just because what they are saying is unpalatable to us. There has to be a strong opposition to the State for a democracy (to keep tabs on it). And the Army should be made accountable for any breaches of conduct just because it is an organized wing of the Govt.

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`satru sesham` means remnants of the enemy. Its from a saying that `there shouldnt be a trace of the enemy or the debt(run) left`.

Pankaj,

And a happy (belated) diwali to you as well.

Cheers, AK

Sadna,

Settle down.

Seeing dreams of a liberated Pakistani-Occupied Kashmir?

Let me guess.. if the population gets disenfranchised and disenchanted with Pakistan and starts calling for reuniting with India.. you won’t do anything, will you? No support of armed secessionists, etc?

{I donot go into Azad Kashmir with arms and ammunition and kill you and your brethen however tempting the prospect seems. Do you see a difference between myself and the Lashkar? But I must say they have a point, and I should seriously consider their modus operandi as an option for myself. I consider you a human being irrespective of your religious beliefs. Do you see a difference, now?}

Oddly, I’m not at all tempted to go to India and kill your brethren. I guess I should be relieved at my humanity being ‘accepted’.

{I have never seen self-determination being defined as a choice between 2 countries and then touted as a `moral` choice. Where I come from, its called `self-serving hypocrisy`.}

Oddly, the claim that ‘there is no problem, if the Foreign Hand would go away then Kashmir would be Paradise again because the people are ever-so-happy in the Indian Union’ strikes me as a bald-faced lie. And shouldn’t it be a beloved tenet of yours that some choice is better than none? Obviously that is a subjective state of affairs.

{And how will you miss a vote when you see no value in one?}

Ooo, ain’t that a bit of a statement-based-on-no-fact thingie?

Well, this could have become a flame war, but since we’re off the front page, probably not.

:-)

sb #201
sb, you say ``it would certainly not be a bad idea to raise the public awareness in India of the Indian Army`s activities/attrocities in remote and underdeveloped areas in India. Esp. as the fledgling democracy`s middle and upper middle-class elite is exhibiting more and more confidence and pride in the country...``

You are right. I recall reading a report of a human rights group in AP? brought out sometime in the mid `90s. I think a number of books have also been written on the subject. Given the not-insignificant(though not sufficient) interest that various organisations and often the media take in `human-rights`-related events elsewhere the country, I think the sticking point for most of us(maybe even the media) where J&K is concerned is that the Indian forces are contending with more than merely a discontented citizenry in terms of opponents and much more than a discontented citizenry`s sticks and stones interms of arms and firepower. It seems like in the pockets where violence is extreme, its virtually a war, `proxy-war`, another apt cliche.

So I`m not sure `branding` the Indian forces as a monolithic erring entity will accomplish much. I think ordinary Indians can contribute in two ways, firstly keep close enough tabs on the situation maybe through special interest groups or the media and demand information and swift justice for every case of unjustified violation. Secondly organise relief, monetary or material or any other for those whose lives are disrupted by violence. Ordinary citizens around the country could get involved in a people-to-people basis in these activities and not them leave solely to government agencies.

``As for the threat from outside/enemy/whatever - I do not believe in having `Satru Sesham` - but it takes both integrity and brains to get there.``

Could you explain?

Sadhana

Anjum #199:

``Finally, on Kashmir (or anything else for that matter), do you believe it possible for someone to oppose the Pakistani position and yet be critical of the Indian one?``

Anjum - I do believe it is possible.

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Pankaj, RSaxena, Sadna, Satyavadi, et al - it would certainly not be a bad idea to raise the public awareness in India of the Indian Army`s activities/attrocities in remote and underdeveloped areas in India. Esp. as the fledgling democracy`s middle and upper middle-class elite is exhibiting more and more confidence and pride in the country...

Also - (this is going to sound cliched) when the country is strong, we will not be going out of our way to defend it. And the strength comes from there being a few good people at the helm of state and community affairs; they will get there when there is a public consiousness, when the people who are lucky enough not to starve dont throw their conscience out the window when it comes to matters outside themselves and their families. Its going to be long and painful getting there. But hey we are proud inheritors of an amazing heritage!

As for the threat from outside/enemy/whatever - I do not believe in having `Satru Sesham` - but it takes both integrity and brains to get there.

krashid #197
I`m glad you are accepting the reality of `billions`. Call me a bigot or a spy or secretive, its your choice. I am not trying to be neutral. As a citizen of my country, I have the right and responsibility to form my own opinions and the right and responsibility to act on them as much as any other Indian, Kashmiri or nonKashmiri, Indian Kashmiris are Indians, too and I yield to no Pakistani`s personal or government stand on that fact.

I consider the `morality` of any Indian stand will be proved or justified only when India makes reparations(if even possible) for its disastrous meddling in Kashmiri politics and the Kashmiris trauma of being under seige of such long drawn-out violence, including the Pandit. Further, India needs to promote a revival of a genuine democratic culture in Jammu and Kashmir and provide full scope for all inhabitants of Jammu and Kashmir to not only progress as Kashmiris, secure in their pluratistic culture and identity within Kashmir but also take full advantage as other states do, of opportunities which the rest of a huge country like India offers. Thats the only `moral` justification for any group to feel the need to remain within the Indian Union and thats the justification which ought to be underlined in everyway possible. Unfortunately the bread and butter of violent seccessionists who are now acting as spoilers comes from those who care nothing for democratic choices for their own citizens, let alone Kashmiris. For eg, its no surprise that Panchayat elections have been announced for J&K by the government and there has already been a call for boycott.

Yielding solely to the strategic imperatives of an unstable neighbour will not get us(Indians) or the Kashmiris anywhere.

Sadhana

Viking et all,

{{you are not the only one to spit on india`s face........}}

OK guys, for those of you who are offended by my remarks that I feel India is wrong about her treatment of Kashmiris, my humble apologies. If I criticise some of my old country`s policies doesnt mean I`m insulting her. Also, just because I feel India`s behavior in Kashmir is wrong, does`nt automatically mean that I approve of Pakistan`s behavior.

In fact, in my earlier posts ,I have indicated that whenever India makes a mistake, Pakistan graciously saves us by making bigger mistakes. This misguided view Pakistan has that it is a good policy to bleed India in Kashmir by using the mujahadeen is going to come back & bite their own heads off. Whenever, they strike at Kashmir with violence, India doesnt bleed blood. On the contrary, India`s collective testicular glands start oozing testesterone & makes Indians all the more convinced that they are right about Kashmir. For India, losing a few thousand soldiers/civilians is an acceptable loss. After all, we are a billion strong.

Mushy doesnt want to crush these madrassahs because he thinks that its graduates are going to deliver Kashmir to Pakistan. HUGE mistake. For every one graduate who gets traditionally educated in Pakistan, these madrassahs churn out several semi-literate graduates, who are not trained to run a modern society. None of these madrassah trained graduates are going to be the future doctors, engineers, IT workers etc etc that Pakistan desparately needs.

Eventhough these guys are all fired up about jihad, it takes a lot more than religious zeal to become a modern, professional military. In today`s increasingly technologically sophisticated military, it takes technical expertise of traditional education to use & maintain modern weapons. So, they can shout jihad all they want. India will willingly help them by giving them a quick exit to heaven.

If not today, then 10 years from today, these guys will be voting age or at least a big majority of adults in Pakistan. They will soon realise that the biggest injustice to the common Pakistani is not India. Its the feudal/beaurocracy/military that is repeatedly screwing Pakistan, but using the Indian boogey-man as an excuse to divert their attention. Thats when they`ll turn their jihad against the real Pakistani injustice. I could be wrong, but thats my prediction.

Sadhna the secretive #196

I was very much impressed by your post.

It may be true that Kashmir is predominantly Muslim. It may be true that Kashmir dispute was taken by India in UN and India agreed for plebiscite. It may be true that it puts Kashmir as a disputed territory.

But I have to agree with you. Because, I don`t know. Bagher Dimagh Ke Insaan Se Behas Nahin Kar Sakte. Us ka Ilaj ya Khamoshi Hai Ya Jahadi.

So be happy. Inspite of everything you say not only Kashmir is a lost cause for India, but India is at the verge of shattering.

And what is this. Started fighting for fun with Burma. Or you also fight with misunderstanding.

Why you take so much pain of being neutral. You are just another degreed bigot on the street. There are billions of them and you are the rule.

Assad_K
``The dear old Lashkaris etc don’t exactly believe in giving any choice whatsoever, so I fail to see how they are relevant. Let’s see: They say, ‘Pakistan or else’. You support ‘India or else’. But you get sarcastic about ‘Pakistan or India’?``

Assad_K, I`ve now heard it all now.. I donot go into Azad Kashmir with arms and ammunition and kill you and your brethen however tempting the prospect seems. Do you see a difference between myself and the Lashkar? But I must say they have a point, and I should seriously consider their modus operandi as an option for myself. I consider you a human being irrespective of your religious beliefs. Do you see a difference, now? And do you see a difference between the government of a country and armed radicals who obey no laws, national or international? These are the superficial differences, get back to me in a couple of years with your own experiences with more fundamental ones. But oh no, Lashkar is given the freedom of your foreign policy and anything they can lay their hands on in India but only 2% of your votes.

Why should India offer any choices to Indian Kashmir on Pakistan`s say so? Tum ko yaa Lashkar to mirchi lagi tho mein kya karoon? Indians should concentrate on getting back Pakistani Kashmir, thats the real dispute and everything else is smoke-screen.

I have never seen self-determination being defined as a choice between 2 countries and then touted as a `moral` choice. Where I come from, its called `self-serving hypocrisy`.

I can see you don`t get the 100% and 200%, better go read the interview of your own CE. And how will you miss a vote when you see no value in one? Only one vote counts these days with `principled` types, see above `self-serving hypocrisy`.

Sadhana

Bhai Assad

They say complacence is the worst enemy. Dushman(I hate to use this word for Pakistan) ko kam karake nahin aankana chahiye. As far as issues are concerned, we can have academic discussion about ``Self determination`` and TNT to death. But I must congratulate Gen Musharraf for putting the real motives of Pakistan behind Kashmir issue so bluntly(Ref Time Asia interview of Musharraf). It is very clear that the Govt of Pakistan is neither concerned with the high ideals of ``Self determination`` that they love to talk nor the right of Kashmiris. This pious talk can be used by Pak Govt to fool its own people or in brainwashing jihadis but can not con intelligent people.They simply want to usurp Kashmir and since Pakistan failed to do so in conventional war, it resurrected the dead TNT saying that Muslims can not live with India and justified jihad against Indians. It is a kind of proxy war being waged by Pakistan against India to annex a territory.

There is no doubt some atrocities have been committed by the Indian army too. But imagine a situation when the terrorists hide inside the house of a innocent couple and firing at the army. In the shootout, some innocents will also perish. The army has become paranoid; nobody knows when a land mine would explode and claim his life or a bullet may come from some direction. What I detest is custodial deaths or some rape charges and they are being dealt with.But what about Mujahideens who terrorised around 350,000 Kashmiri Pundits to leave Kashmir. I am of the opinion that Army rule is invariably associated with atrocities be it Pak army in Bangladesh or Japanese army in Korea during ww2.

That is why I suggested to make LoC a permanent border, take back terrorists and start planning for the development. Takrav ke raste se kuch bhi haasil nahin hoga. India should start the democratic process ensuring Kashmiris full individual freedom. But as Mr Atal aptly puts

it,`` any attempt to change borders can not be tolerated.``

P.S Aaj diwali hai. So no more Kashmir. Wish all of you a very happy diwali. Go and celebrate man!

(If ISI incites violence in Kashmir, someday RAW is going to retaliate with equal force in supporting forces of secession in Pakistan.)

Pankaj,

Y’mean something like, say, if someday East Pakistan gets sick of taking West Pakistan’s crap and decides to secede? Also, oddly, I read in an Indian magazine (Frontline? Outlook?) that one of RAW’s major successes was infiltrating the MQM during the period when there was, in no small words, a reign of terror in Karachi. I assume that they were busy trying to convince the MQM leadership to moderate their ways and give peace a chance?

Perhaps there really isn’t such a strong secessionist feeling anywhere in Pakistan currently? Or at least, not where it can be exploited.. RAW would have a hard time supplying secessionists in, say, Baluchistan, while secessionists in Sind would easily be supplied.

Sadna

(What can we lesser mortal Indians comprehend the noble aims and choices offered by people close to heaven and God such as Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad. Thats something you highminded types will have to explain to us about `principled stands`.)

The dear old Lashkaris etc don’t exactly believe in giving any choice whatsoever, so I fail to see how they are relevant. Let’s see: They say, ‘Pakistan or else’. You support ‘India or else’. But you get sarcastic about ‘Pakistan or India’?

(btw, re choice, when is the last time YOU made a choice, or are you `200%` or `more than 100%` happy? Quite likely, so don`t bother to answer, I can see electoral percentages are calculated by enlightened mind-reading, thats also something outside the understanding of lesser beings like myself.)

Sorry, that was too intellectually put for me. Que pasa?