Defend the Country, not its Government

Scout #53

:-))))))))

Subcontinental #52

Although your logic is valid. But to be fair you might have given examples from India. Or did you have difficulty in finding the example from your own country.

If you have let me know.

With reference to Sobia #9:

I`ve just come back from an extended trip to Pakistan. It involved travel to Bahawalpur, Faisalabad, Quetta, Lahore, Sialkot, Sargodha, Skardu, Peshawar, Rawalpindi and Karachi.

There is more support for General Musharraf than any other ruler we`ve had since Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto.

And that includes support for Kargil. As far as being ``kept in the dark`` - perhaps you are not keeping up with your reading. There is a openness and vitality in the media in Pakistan that has to be seen to be believed. This is not to say that the reports are rosy and glowing. How can they be with the utter mess left behind by Benazir and Nawaz?

But there is a movement among the people to do something, and they are simply pushing for good things to be done faster. Businesses are at the forefront of this, which is what I encountered everywhere I went (business being the reason for the trip).

Yes the people know what went on in Kargil. A brave effort that was betrayed by Nawaz.

With reference to Shankar # 11

The only backstabbing that took place was done by Nawaz. One thing obvious in the Lahore talks was the unwillingness of general Musharraf to participate in false friendly overtures toward Vajpayee. Clearly he was open about where he stood. There is a straightforwardness about his actions. It is not something that sits well with a lot of Indians as well as a lot of westerners. Certainly he is no Nawaz who went bleating to Washington.

With reference to URstruely #12

It is pro Indians by and large who are working hard to equate the men in military uniform with the bogeyman. The Pakistanis I have met are very supportive of the army.

And from my trip I gathered that even members of the MQM are begining to turn against Altaf Hussain. The feeling is that Altaf Hussain has finally shown his true colors, and there is a real distaste for him that is becoming more evident in conversations. So ethnic violence may not come about (unless the RAW agents really get industrious and work their buns off!)

I`ve read the article that proclaims the desertion of Pakistan by its youth and educated. I saw a lot of people who wanted to leave Pakistan. There is a feeling in Pakistan that the combination of US/West pressure will not ease and that makes it harder for Gen. Musharraf to help Pakistan. At the same time there is more hope now than in Benazir`s or Nawaz`s ruling years. This is what I encountered. I will do my bit to help the Pakistani economy because Pakistanis are the only ones whose help will count. This is all that we need to do.

Urstruly:

So you say - `persecution complex: our birth right, come what may!`? (And we will flaunt it before those 85000+ readers per month!)

Why, thank you!

Bilal Ahmed #25

This is a normal routine in Pakistan especially Karachi. And your brother is sane enough not to fight.

A couple of weeks back police followed and targeted two boys on motorcycle and killed them. They were labelled as terrorist. On the insistence of family and ``Ahl-e-Mohallah`` the enquiry is being conducted. According to family, those boys went to bank to get cash. Police followed them and targeted them. The cash was missing from dead bodies. These kind of incidences are not rare.

On another note, 700+ people did suicide in Pakistan in one year, mostly from Sind.

As far as Sind is concerned, the fate has been same during so called democracy and now Matial Law. Before it was under Governor`s rule and now under Army rule.

There is no change in the luck of common man.

I think rhetoric aside, our priority should be the common man. Ruling elite and their cronies have no problem and will never have (except in their infighting with Zardari and Nawaz Sharif getting cross for all the sins by ruling elite).

What the common man needs is bread, housing, education, and good prospect. With the maldistribution of wealth in our society, it is the non-priviledged people who suffer most. Moreover the alternative economy is the only thing which can improve the plight of people.

The thing is power perks and priviledges are so deeply entrenched, that it is impossible to fight it to get benefit for common man without organized political activity at the grass root level.

Speaking of Pavlovian stimuli:

The words ``Pakistan`` and ``Muslim,`` have Jay salivating all over the place.

Jay, you know I`m only kidding right, please don`t retaliate by spewing forth anti-Pakistan venom and thus validating the statement above.

Please allow the author to interject:

Because I was writing for Chowk, I used illustrations from the Indo-Pak context to try and make a general point. The interacts suggest that the general point has been lost in the Indo-Pak “noise.” Let me try and summarize my argument better.

We have a choice. We can choose to look at particular situations through “us versus them” glasses or through “right versus wrong” glasses. It makes a difference. Because if we choose the latter we must have the courage to keep open the possibility that sometimes “we” can be “wrong” and “they” can be “right.” (This is a general proposition: “we” can be our co-nationalists, our co-religionists, or our family.)

What exactly do we do in such situations? Do we stand up for “us” or do we stand up for what is “right”? Granted that the distinction between right and wrong is much more subjective than that between us and them. But, for the sake of argument, we can think of simpler situations. Remember the dilemma of the Unabomber’s brother?

Now either we are so much the prisoners of our birth that we refuse to distinguish right from wrong. Or we call a spade a spade, irrespective of the damage we fear it might cause to larger interests dear to our hearts.

I am not sure how our individual faiths would rule on this but my point is that we have to do the latter to break the Indo-Pak logjam and enable the suffering majorities a chance at a better future. And we have to do it as individuals because governments are not going to help us do it.

P.S. As one example of a “right versus wrong” analysis of the Kashmir issue, see the three part article by Pankaj Mishra starting in the September 21, 2000 issue of the New York Review of Books (also available on the web at www.nybooks.com).

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 46)

Dear Urstruly:

I think, Feroz is more qualified than me to comment on Saleem Yazdani’s piece.

I am much too leery about the scholarship of most contributors in the Urdu newspapers. Lack of analysis and too much rhetoric are two major weaknesses. Yazdani’s editorial has once again affirmed that the Urdu newspaper owners, editors, and contributors have very little, if any, desire to effectively educate our simple and poorly educated literate masses.

In short, Yazdani’s editorial lacks depth, though it surely seems to have an agenda.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Sadna reply #35

``I didnot mention the Lahore process. Since YOU mention it, I ask, if an elected leader and his decisions are so easily disowned by Pakistanis, why should Indians make a similar mistake with unelected ones? ``

Lets not give up hope. I think dialogue is a better way to resolve this issue - don`t you ?

All the elected Indian leaders have disowned the Kashmir plebiscite commitment they made at the UN. Yet the Pakistani govt. still wants to have a dialogue with the Indian govt. What does that show ?

As far as the Kargil episode is concerned, the Indians were the aggressors. The Pakistani forces merely defended the hills they had walked over. If the Indians would not have attacked the Pakistani positions, they would have come to no harm.

Peace.

Dear Subcontinental,

The blame for our poor relations with India rests with India and not with ``Pakistan``, ``Pakistanis`` or ``Pakistan Army``.

{``So it was somewhat of a shock to come across on October 4, 2000 a minor item in the daily Dawn entitled “Kin of Kargil martyrs get land.” ``}

so it was a shock...huh...no kidding dude!!

Pakistan Army officers and jawans who fought and died in Kargil were awarded more than a year ago....probably you were under-training then so didn`t notice...or maybe you were assigned to some sector other than Pakistan?

Well said Urstruly # 24

Add to your list the frustrated ex-Pakistani ex-communists, now turned liberals, the disgraceful absconders who didn`t have the courage to stay and fight in Pakistan. Easy to judge the strength of their convictions...Remember their rants from the 70`s and 80`s? ``Ameeriki Saamraaj murdabaad``, ``Raygun Baygun hai hai``, ``Imperialist Amreeka hai hai``...now nursing their green cards, willing to sacrifice the left cheek of their butts to keep `em...

Urstruly

I admire you for your insight into the human psychology that you aptly show in your article on Strategy-Part 3. If it was indeed your own original thought, then it must have taken a lot of time and intelligence to conceive it. Hell, am I acting like a good cop(and hence most lethal) by your theory.:)))

Cheers

CONFIDENTIAL-

INTEROFFICE MEMO

Agent Scully!

Please write your recommendations on this note and forward it to me ASAP. Through this note I am recommending the name of Agent Gay for his valor and relentless services for our proud nation. Let me give you some background on Agent Gay, which might help you write your recommendation.

As you know, Agency was keeping an eye on the performance of Agent Gay since the time he was a front line soldier. In one combat operation, on those high hills, an enemy bullet took half of his brain. That was the time when Agency decided to invest in him and they gave me full charge of this operation. The Army Doctors told me that the only way to save Agent Gay’s life was to transplant a brain ASAP. The time was short and there was no spare brain available. That was the time when an Indian MD from Bronx suggested that we could use little Timmy’s brain. Do you remember Timmy, that cute little Cocker Spaniel of mine. So we sacrificed little Timmy for motherland to save a soldiers life. Though little Timmy was cute but he had a bad habit of barking all night long. In a way that operation helped me too, because I was finally able to get some good night sleep. The results of this operation were phenomenal. Timmy’s implant worked like a wonder and really improved Agent Gay’s communication skills. The way Agent Gay now talks reminds me of little Timmy. Anyway because of his improved communication skills we deployed him on our North American operations.

His performance so far has been phenomenal. He is really @#$%ing the brains out of the enemy. So it is time that the Nation shows its gratitude for his relentless services and award his efforts. I am recommending his name for Param Vir Chakra. However, I am not sure whether he has to die first in order to get this award or we can just give it to him because half of his brain is dead any way. So before you write your recommendations, please check the Operations Manual. I am also recommending Timmy’s name for at least Kirti Chakra because half of the effort that Agent Gay puts in is due to little Timmy.

Have you done anything about that little SOB, what is his name? Yours Troll or something-These goddamned Arabic names are so hard to pronounce.


Agent Fox Mulder

PS. BTW you were looking good in that little skirt of yours the other day.

PS. This message will self-destruct in 5, 4, 3, 2, oops I hope its not too late. My fault-I was writing this letter at 1200 hrs.

Attn: ahmadb

Dear Bilal!

What do you think of Saleem Yazdaani`s article in today`s (Oct 12)Jang editorial page?-in the context of Globalisation of course.

fairdinkum #36
Me`in socchti hoo`n ChowkStaff pe taras khaa`on. Defend the country and not its secret service :-). btw, hope chowk will see a contribution from you, soon.

Sadhana

Urstruly #32 I believe there are pills available for paranoia. You may wish to try some.

Well, the responses in the interacts are hardly surprising... here`s another article for people to stand up say `See? Pakis bad!`.

Even if that`s not the intent of the article.

Governments lie. The Iraqis never pulled babies out of their incubators. U-boat captains didn`t spend their time gunning down survivors. The Hizbul Mujahideen were, for just a little while, a Kashmiri group, rather than a bunch of foreign mercenaries. Pakistan began the 71 war. I did not have sex with that woman.

So were the people on the Kargil heights so stunningly well stocked and equipped that it left the Indians stunned at the quality? Or were they starving and out of ammo?

Did they all traipse up on a `secret` mission wearing caps proudly proclaiming `Pakistan Army` and carrying their ID cards?

Did the Indians inflict more casualties than they took, despite attacking uphill under poor cover?

Did the Indians bury our troops when we wouldn`t claim them (though their TV broadcasts apparently showed ceremonies that were not namaz-e- janaza).

Did Pakistan only acknowledge the Punjabis and not the troops of the NLI?

Is Siachen on our side of the LoC?

Did India occupy territory in Qamar and Chhor Batla?

Was RAW in the MQM when Karachi was in a reign of terror?

Did the Dogra have 200,000 Muslim Kashmiris killed and seind twice as many fleeing for their lives, thus instigating the tribal response, or did Jinnah unleash the tribal hordes on the peaceful Dogras?

Did Nawaz Sharif know about Kargil (you`re working under the supposition that he didn`t)?

Keep in mind.. I think that most Pakistanis were all behind Kargil, on grounds that we wanted to see the Indians getting hammered (which we felt was happening, anyway). Certainly I think that Pakistanis would have preferred it to be regular Army up there rather than Mujjies. I doubt that many of the `enlightened, liberal` Indians here, for that matter, object to thinking that Pakistan was and is getting hammered, regardless of talk of `peace`.

If the people are not behind the government, the people need to take the initiative in getting rid of the government. We have the Serbian example before us.

As regards SAAG.. Boy, is THAT a lot of horse-poo.