Defend the Country, not its Government

Dear urstruly,

Are you sure you want to share your analysis with us?

You may be giving Indians ideas!

If you hallucinating, please keep at it. I suspect your hallucinations may be India`s best weapons against you.

If you are not hallucinating, I admire the foresight of thousands who are running away from Pakistan everyday.

Regards,

Prem

P.S.: To all evil Indians, don`t you think we need to organize something along the lines Urstruly suggests? :-)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,18345,00.html

Pakistani young reject the General



FROM STEPHEN FARRELL AND ZAHID HUSSAIN IN KARACHI



TWELVE months after the coup in Pakistan, its youth is fleeing to the valleys: for the rich, Silicon Valley, wealth and a future; for the poor, Kashmir Valley, jihad and martyrdom. Among all classes there is a sense of disillusionment, even despair, at the failure of General Pervez Musharraf`s military regime to deliver promises made after toppling Nawaz Sharif, the elected Prime Minister, in a bloodless coup a year ago today.

On the eve of the anniversary yesterday police barred Mr Sharif`s wife, Kulsoom, from entering Islamabad. No explanation was available, but sources in her Pakistan Muslim League party believed that the move was to stop her addressing any protest meetings.

Many in Pakistan gave General Musharraf the benefit of the doubt, hoping that a brisk dose of military efficiency could achieve what was never possible under the corrupt administrations of Sharif and Benazir Bhutto — an end to rampant bribery, economic stagnation and lawlessness.

But the honeymoon has quickly come to an end, despite the General`s pleas that it is impossible to rectify years of decay in 365 days. Unprecedented numbers of the educated young are emigrating to the US, Canada and Europe, capital is being moved out and foreign investors are staying away.

This year the United States Embassy in Islamabad received 300,000 visa requests, nearly double the previous year, and the British High Commission had 25 per cent more initial applications from January to August than the corresponding period in 1999.

Walk into any Internet café in Islamabad and terminals are clogged with graduates of nuclear physics, engineering and electronics downloading Canadian or US college prospectuses. Introduce yourself, chat and stroll back to your hotel, and a job application is waiting on your computer.

One factor is the Western demand for Indian and Pakistani computer graduates. Farrukh Ahmed, 20, an IT student in Karachi, was offered a $60,000 (£41,226) job in America before he graduated. In a country where the average man earns $400 a year, he had little hesitation. ``There is no future for me here,`` he said.

In deprived rural areas, disaffected youths with no jobs or formal education are being recruited to armed groups who have declared holy war against Indian rule in Kashmir, or to fight alongside Taleban in Afghanistan.

Emboldened by General Musharraf`s unwillingness, or inability, to contain fundamentalists within the thousands of madrassas — largely unregulated religious schools — the mullahs have stepped up their campaign to impose their extreme brand of Islam.

Ten months ago Maulana Masood Azhar, the fiery pro-Taleban cleric, was in an Indian prison, accused of fomenting unrest in Kashmir. Now, after terrorists secured his release in December by hijacking an Indian Airlines jet, he holds open-air rallies in Pakistan.

His mission is simple — to recruit 100,000 fighters for Jaish Mohammed, an antiIndian jihad splinter group. Other Mujahidin factions operate openly from offices in Islamabad and Lahore.

``There is plenty of evidence the religious schools provide a religious incentive for young men to go and fight. But what option do their families have?`` a depressed Western diplomat said. ``If you are dirt-poor and your son is offered a place where he is given three meals, a salwar kameez (traditional clothing and is taught to read and write, you are already 100 per cent better off than in a corrupt state school.``

Most analysts agree that no liberal domestic reform is possible without a change in Pakistan`s support for the militants in Kashmir and Afghanistan.

The General, who styles himself Chief Executive, is adamant that there are grounds for optimism, claiming exports have increased, local democratic elections are in place and a start has been made to curb the country`s huge number of weapons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_969000/969040.stm

Pakistan: Still out in the cold.

A year after they seized power in a coup, the military authorities in Pakistan insist they are committed to restoring democracy within two years once they have cleaned up politics and repaired the battered economy.

The international community is still putting pressure on the army to restore democracy earlier but one human rights group has called for it to do more to end military rule.

Apart from a brief visit by President Clinton earlier this year, after a much longer stay in neighbouring India, Pakistan has not received many leading international political figures this year.

This is in direct contrast to its rival, India, which has seen delegations from Europe, America and Australia beating a track to either Delhi or its high-tech capital, Bangalore, to foster closer relations.

This month, President Putin of Russia did not set foot in Pakistan while on a mission to revive ties with India, although a Russian envoy did visit Pakistan a few days before his trip.

When the military seized power in a bloodless but dramatic coup last year, Pakistan was suspended from the Commonwealth and condemned by nations like Britain.

But such had been the failure of democracy in Pakistan, that other nations, most notably the United States, were less critical and appeared inclined to give the army a chance to prove itself. A year on, they are still waiting.

Slow reforms

Reforms have been slow, although the government has managed to increase tax collection as part of its attempt to get badly-needed aid from the IMF, despite widespread opposition from Pakistanis unused to paying taxes.

But perhaps nothing symbolises Pakistan`s waning influence on the international scene as much as last month`s UN General Assembly.

The military ruler only managed to talk briefly to President Clinton at the summit.

The Indian Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee, by contrast, stayed on for an official visit and was lavished with attention from the Americans, even addressing Congress, an honour accorded to few foreign leaders.

THE TWO PERCENT,

Pakistan govt is a military one, not affected by the two percent religious fanatics, there are no bearded generals, the synergy of the army and the jihadists is a creation of the indian media, musharaff is a kamalist reformist. Then of course the following news from nation is an indian propaganda,

``Chief Executive General Parvez Musharraf, while announcing the devolution of power plan, said that the Government had decided to retain the separate electorate system for the minorities. He said that it was in their interest to have this system; for otherwise, no minority man or woman could get elected.``.

// wake, up, see the reality of pakistan, notice the limits of pak democracy, accept the norms of sheria courts.

# 24 PAVLOVS DOGS,

The original pavlovs dogs associated the stimulus of light to the impending flooding and the fear of drowning. It was only the fear.

For the jihadists it is the pleasure of taking the short cut to heaven that is impelling them to cross the mine field of loc to quench the pavlovian response to the verses of a book.

The unbridled response to Musharaff take over could be one of the resounding from a nation that would have made pavlov proud.

Sadhna,

ve`hshath ka kya matlab hai?
waisay mujhay lag raha hai keh aap bohat jald naraz hoonay wali hain :)

I feel a little vulnurable now...so many secret services are monitoring chowk, they must have traced me by now... I already have a record in Pakistan, I wonder what will happen when I go for a vist in feb..burrrr.... :)

krashid #26

I didnot mention the Lahore process. Since YOU mention it, I ask, if an elected leader and his decisions are so easily disowned by Pakistanis, why should Indians make a similar mistake with unelected ones?

Urstruly #34
Aapko apni ve`hshath mubaarak.

Sadhana

RE: Sadna # 33

I deal with shadows by casting light on them. There is always a ``real`` thing that casts shadows.

Urstruly #32

If you are so scared of shadows, how will you deal with the real thing?

Sadhana

RE: Sadna, Shankar, Satyavadi

Sorry for the monologue. But it had to be done in that way.

INDIAN MEDIA STRATEGY PART IV

After reading the Part III of this strategy, a reader my rightfully question-will it be logical and scientific to superimpose the set of observation here on Chowk onto the Indian efforts in the International media. What is the significance of Chowk in this set up. Why Chowk? Well I let you be the judge.

Following are some of the statistics that are taken from the Chowk`s article on its third bithday:

Monthly Readers in July 2000 - 85000+
Monthly Readers in August 1997 - 1200+
Peak Visitors in one day - 18000+
Average visitors per day - 2300+
Average Page Hits Per Day - 8300+
Registered Readers - 7500+
People who have visited Chowk - [135000+]
Lurkers [Tens of thousands]

So what do you think?

PS. Ma`shalla Chowk

ashmadb #28

Your Statement:

“Are the lawyers challenging the Pakistani Supreme Court which gave a thre-year long lease to the army regime? Is this contempt of the Supreme Court of Pakistan? “

Bilal, what is the basis of Supreme Court granting the three-year lease to army regime in the first place? As I understand it, under military rule, constitution, in all honesty, is suspended. What right does army, or its cronies, have to make laws/amend existing laws on the run? Remember that courts, including Supreme Court of Pakistan, can only interpret the laws enshrined in the constitution. Supreme court or Pakistan army are not law-making institutions. It is the parliament, which is empowered to do that. Lawyers have every right to challenge Supreme Court’s decision.

[The Dawn report futher points out that: “Suspended senator Raza Rabbani said smaller provinces were fed up with what they perceived as interventions by `Punjabi army`. Time has come to decide once and for all whether power rests with the people and their representatives or the military. The devolution plan will effectively abolish provinces and set up 106 small `states` under a strong centre, he claimed.” ]

If devolution plan is really aimed at abolishing provinces, with a view to strengthening the centre even further, then God help Pakistan. In my view devolution should work the other way around… Provinces should have greater powers, and greater say in matters of national importance. At the moment armed forces are too homogeneous, and hence, too powerful, too unaccountalbe, too incompetent, too inefficient, too lazy, too pampered, and too greedy for their own good. Devolution of power in armed forces would be a shot in the arm for politics, economy, peace, and prosperity in Pakistan, and a step in the right direction. But who will bell the cat?

Your statement:

“I think, the coup was guided by the army’s desire to reproduce itself effectively irrespective of its costs upon the civilian sector. Remember, the army is guided by survival of the fittest logic. “

I suspect that too. After the Kargil fiasco, things were not looking good for Mr. Musharraf/army.

Urstruly,

Can you classify each of the Indian partipicants here in one of the three categories (Pavlovian etc...) that you mentioned, please? Not that RAW didnt specify our exact roles on hiring us. Just wanna know how transparent that classification is to the enemy.

Also, if you could provide a rating as to how good a job(from the Indian point of view) each of the participants has been doing, atleast I could use it to support my pay hike demand with RAW, assuming I am doing a good job in whatever category I belong to.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Thanks in anticipation.

Satyavadi

DEFEND THE ARMY, NOT THE PEOPLE: SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST LOGIC

A lawyers convention in Lahore on October 10 called for “an immediate end to military rule and restoration of undiluted democracy” (Dawn, October 11, 2000). Are the lawyers challenging the Pakistani Supreme Court which gave a thre-year long lease to the army regime? Is this contempt of the Supreme Court of Pakistan?

A resolution adopted at the convention said that the devolution plan is a new version of the discarded BD system which was meant to groom a new leadership subservient to the military rulers.

The Dawn report futher points out that: “Suspended senator Raza Rabbani said smaller provinces were fed up with what they perceived as interventions by `Punjabi army`. Time has come to decide once and for all whether power rests with the people and their representatives or the military. The devolution plan will effectively abolish provinces and set up 106 small `states` under a strong centre, he claimed.”

Are the lawyers creating unnecessary political mess? Or, was the coup of October 12, 1999 a planned effort to control the power of state for the institutionalization of army’s upper hand in Pakistan’s polity (and higher level decision-making)? I think, the coup was guided by the army’s desire to reproduce itself effectively irrespective of its costs upon the civilian sector. Remember, the army is guided by survival of the fittest logic.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

BAhmed#

Just see the perks and priviledges which any system gives.

Our Beaureaucracy at higher level is involved in many priviledges apart from the power that yield money to them. They are hand in hand with the Industrialist of highest order, and one SRO saves millions of rupees to them. Police keeps a blind eye to their crimes and crimes of their cronies and children, like helping in smuggling etc. In return police is given the priviledge to utilize its power to extort money from people. Army gets its share for being most organized. They are keeping at their side, few Maulana`s who support them in return for advancement of their activities, whether Jihadist or otherwise. Where do Jagirdar fit, I have less clue. But all in all with this chain going, the main losers are working people, farmers, traders etc.

How to get benefit for the common man. With organized political parties with activities at grassroot level.

Is our beaureucracy bad or politicians bad or is the system of perks and priviledges restricted to certain groups. (If you remember on another board I said Benazir and Nawaz Sharif were destined to do what they did)

Sadhna #16

Welcome back. Where does your argument stand.

It is Government of Indian and Government of Pakistan who have to deal with situation.

It is upto the people of Pakistan to embrace their leader or not.

India deals with all the dictatorship in Arab countries even now. And it has dealt with many dictatorial regimes in past.

While you are harping all along Lahore progress, and backstabbing. You never considered that this Lahore process was not be embraced by Pakistani Nation in that form. Nor did you considered that it will not be embraced by Pakistani people. Why did you embrace it and harp it.

Do you see your contradiction.

Pakistani nation is for peace with India, but not at the cost of Kashmir. And any peace process should take this into consideration. I don`t think there is any other major problem between India and Pakistan except Kashmir.

See the relation between India and Pakistan as between the two Governments. We are sovereign Nation and you have no right to interfere in our Internal matters.

If you want to embrace something from us embrace Islam.:-) We will be very happy for your kindness towards us.