Defend the Country, not its Government

Re: shankar

``Ever since Pakistan was formed as a separate, distinct nation, they have been trying to find an identity thats separate from India. Whats wrong with that?! So if ylh & KRashid justify it by pointing out their Persian & Arabic roots, all I can say is --good for them! Its their business,not ours. ``

Yes, yes, yes!! I`m sorry I haven`t been communicating my points very well. I ACCEPT PAKISTAN AS A SEPARATE COUNTRY FOR MUSLIMS. I WOULDN`T WANT ANY OF ITS PEOPLE IN MY COUNTRY.

My point about Arabic roots was meant to counter your statement somewhere suggesting that India is somehow occupying Kashmiri land. If, as they claim, those peoples` origins are not in the subcontinent then isn`t it really the Indian Kafirs` land to begin with??? That`s all.

``Besides, let me argue that the cultural differences between India & Pakistan are many & getting wider each year.``

Of course!! We have no concept of Jihad and we have adopted the concept of individual liberties!

``Now, you can say Parsis have Persian roots. Most of the Parsis on the subcontinent live in India.....The Goan & Manglorean christians havent asked for a separate homeland. None of these people have asked for a separate homeland.``

Again, this is my poor communication. I want all these people to be a part of India and believe they are as Indian as anyone else. That is what makes India what it is! My point is that if the rest of us can coexist amicably, why can`t the Pakistani mujahideen terrorists and many of the Kashmiris themselves accept the same??? Why does Kashmir have to secede because it happens to have a muslim majority?

``I dont believe Indian muslims (non Kashmiris) have asked for another separate homeland after Pakistan was born.``

Maybe not. But as a psychologist you probably understand this...Partition and now this Kashmir nonsense play on the collective psyche of non-muslims in India. Call it prejudice or bigotry or whatever you will but the fact of the matter is that the actions of the few million muslims turns the country sour against the whole lot. It leads us to fear how many more Muslim countries will be carved out of India in the future.

Irfan Husain puts it very well in his column
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm
21 October 2000 Saturday
``Granted that differences in faith still trigger atavistic conflicts, but these are generally aberrations without legal sanction. ``

Taking the liberty of paraphrasing, ``granted that differences in faith still trigger atavistic conflicts, these ought to be reduced to aberrations without legal and political sanction``.

RSaxena #172
``Hindus will and can coexist with Catholics, Buddhists, etc. but not with Muslims (most of them).``

Please realise there is too much at stake here to indulge oneself in gross generalizations. BTW, hope you arenot saying TNT is more viable than secularism wrt present-day India? Have you crossed over then :-)?

Sadhana

RE: anjum

``Alright, send the 150 million Iranian and Persian crooks back to wherever the hell they came from. You may consider the price of the deed bearable if you were actually to be left with a land full of happy Hindus.``

That`s exactly my argument against giving away Kashmir to the mullahs because it happens to have a majority which is different from the rest of India!!!!

``This has almost nothing to do with Hindus and Muslims.``

Yes it does. I won`t get into the details now but it has everything to do with it...no 2 religions can be more different. Hindus will and can coexist with Catholics, Buddhists, etc. but not with Muslims (most of them).

``It has almost everything to do with how we decide to deal with differences.``

Right, and what are we to do everytime there is a difference? Demand a new country or secede into another?

I agree with your points..understand that my arguments are meant to highlight why I and most Indians will never agree to give Kashmir away.

Re: satyavadi #68

Thank you. You articulated what I`ve been trying to say in the past 2 posts: There cannot be a half-a * *ed implementation of the TNT. Either we do it all the way and or we do none of it. Unfortunately, we did not do it all the way but Kashmir will make the deal even more asymmetric.

But I don`t necessarily agree that India would need to be broken up further...buddhists, jains, etc. etc. have not demanded separate nations and can coexist with each other. Only the Muslims have (Pakistan) and continue to do so (Kashmir).

Satyavadi,

Perhaps I was in quite a defeatist/depressed mood yesterday when I replied your post:)

RSaxena is right, there are no easy answers to this problem.

Kashmir was the last unfinished business of the Partition. The way Kashmir was incorporated into India is the core issue. IMO both India & Pakistan were at fault. Both wanted to wear this beautiful crown that sits on the head of the Subcontinent. Frankly, IMO, neither side has earned the right to wear it.

I admit that my knowlege of history is limited. This is partly because I`m not a student of history & I wasnt born at that time. So, if I`m wrong, I will stand corrected.

The Maharajah of Kashmir was waffling about whether to join India, Pakistan or remain independant. Unfortunately, Pakistan sent in infiltrators to take over Kashmir. However, they were a rag tag, non professional army that seemed more interested in raping & pillaging rather than achieving their objective. That was just the push the Maharajah needed to ask India for help, because his personal butt was on the line. Nehru being a Kashmiri himself, wanted Kashmir to be part of India. Nehru shrewdly told him that India would send her troops to his rescue as long as he opted to join India. The rest is history.

Unfortunately, nobody asked the Kashmiri people what they wanted. Pakistan assumes (rightly or wrongly) that since the majority of Kashmiris are muslim, they would have opted for Pakistan. India basically says, ``hey, too bad pal, they legally opted for India, you blew that chance``. So, if Kashmiri muslims dont like India, they can go pack their bags & move to Pakistan occupied Kashmir --or more precisely, Pakistan proper. In any case, many Kashmiri muslims felt that they were just pawns whose feelings & sentiments were trampled upon.

So, the next alternative was to have a plebiscite.

Over the last 50+ years, for one reason or the other India has been able to justify not having a plebiscite. Now India states that plebiscite is a moot issue because Pakistan has changed the demographics of POK & havent withdrawn their army from there. Besides, what about the territory Pakistan has illegaly gifted to China? All the arguments on Chowk (re Kashmir) have gone round & round about this issue.

We cant turn back the clock & undo what has happened. There is no use pointing fingers at each other because everybody gets very hurt & defensive. I remember Umairr, sometime back, had suggested a sort of a truce, with Kashmir being a semi-autonomous state. Thats the only way to untangle this Grideon`s knot. If we dont sit down & talk, Kashmir will doom both countries.

RSaxena,

Ever since Pakistan was formed as a separate, distinct nation, they have been trying to find an identity thats separate from India. Whats wrong with that?! So if ylh & KRashid justify it by pointing out their Persian & Arabic roots, all I can say is --good for them! Its their business,not ours.

Besides, let me argue that the cultural differences between India & Pakistan are many & getting wider each year. They are certainly wider than, say, US & Canada.

Now, you can say Parsis have Persian roots. Most of the Parsis on the subcontinent live in India. The Indian Parsi Panchayat has publicly stated (during every one of their conventions) that even if their roots are Persian, they are Indian--first & foremost. Similarly, those Anglo-Indians who have not migrated to England, consider themselves as Indian. The Goan & Manglorean christians havent asked for a separate homeland. None of these people have asked for a separate homeland. I dont believe Indian muslims (non Kashmiris) have asked for another separate homeland after Pakistan was born.

A majority of Sikhs do not want Khalistan, even after the tragic events in the 80s. Most of the radical pro-Khalistan elements live abroad. Their rantings are meerly a storm in the teacup. I hope I`m right. Even though sikhs are still hurt because of what happened, there is a slow, but definite healing & are back in the mainstream. It would definitely help if those murderers that killed many innocent sikhs after IG`s assassination are bought to justice.

My fear of the RSS & the hindutva ideology is that if these minorities start feeling increasingly insecure, then they will start agitating for autonomy or independance. All India will be doing is trying to douse these fires. If one is doused, another will start elsewhere. How the Hell can India progress if she`s mired in this kind of crap?

IMO, India & Pakistan is like a divorced couple. The division of property/parental rights that isnt resolved is Kashmir. If I can make an analogy, the people of Kashmir are like the children of divorced parents. They keep suffering because their parents keep fighting with each other to get their custody. So they keep suffering as long as the parents fight. If I was a grown child of divorced parents, who are still bickering with each other, I`d tell them to stop this nonsense because I want to live by myself because I`m sick of the two of them. But thats me, I cant speak for the Kashmiri people.

The only way out of this mess is third party intervention. After all, cant we agree on one thing? If the Kashmiri problem is resolved, it will be beneficial for India, Pakistan & Kashmiris--most of all.

Anjum #167
``This has almost nothing to do with Hindus and Muslims.``

Very good point. It has always been who wants to wrest power from whom on which easy pretext. I learnt yesterday that the movie `Fizaa` has been banned in Malaysia. The reason apprently is that there is a scene in the movie where the Muslim hero is told by a Hindu cop to whom he has gone for help during the M`bai riots to `go to Pakistan`. Now why would Malaysians care about a scene in a Hindi movie? It seems some religiously inclined Malaysians say something like ``look here is proof Malaysian Hindus will never cooperate and coexist with us``. So the movie is banned in Malaysia so that some pathetic sod trying to stave off starvation and scrap together a decent life for himself in an effort to qualify for `human being` doesnot get killed in the crossfire of a fight he has no stakes in, triggered by a movie made 1000 of miles away. Pathetic is what it is.

Sadhana

( I posted this reply on the Lahore Declaration board by mistake (#125). I repost it here.)

Shankar #161:

``The whole basis for the TNT was that muslim majority areas should go to Pakistan``

Thats not correct. The whole basis of the TNT was that Muslims and Hindus of British India were two different nations, and hence couldnot co-exist in one nation.

Had the theory, been fully implemented there SHOULD have been complete exchange of Hindu and Muslim populations at Partition.

So the Muslims who chose to remain in India then, not necessarily because they didnot approve of the TNT then, CANNOT now demand another slice of the land that is India on the basis of the TNT. The reason being, that by staying in India then, they decided that the TNT was not valid to them. For those Muslims who have had a change of mind since then, and support the TNT, should migrate to Pakistan or Bangladesh - countries created for the Muslims of the subcontinent. This includes the Kashmiri Muslims. A vast majority of them doesnt want to stay with India. Fine, they can migrate to Pakistan or Bangladesh, no one would object. But slicing off another part of India as a homage to the TNT is unacceptable. The sooner the Kashmiri Muslims realize that, the better it would be for themselves and other Indians, though not necessarily for Pakistan. The longer they take to accept this fact, the more likely becomes a Chechnya like operation in Kashmir. It should be clear to anyone who HAS LIVED in India in the recent past, that there is absolutely not an iota of support for Kashmiri secession in the rest of India and that Indians will never accept it. Worst case scenario will be the destruction of Kashmir, Pakistan and maybe the rest of India. No one is enamoured by that possibility, but there is no other recourse for India. After having shrinked on both the northwestern and eastern sides once, to satisfy the ego/ unreasonable demands/ persecution complex/ displaced mughal sybdrome complex/ islamic inability to coexist as equals with other communities - of a section of its Muslim population, it cannot go on doing it indefinitely. There has to be some end, ``enough, no more`` and I think that the end was defined and pronounced at Partition.

There cannot be a Hindu India in its present form, because though Muslims have their own countries in the subcontinent, the rest of the non-Hindu communities donot. If there has to be a Hindu India, there have to be carved separate Sikh, Buddhist, Jain and Christian Indias from the present land mass; and there are already Muslim Indias in Bangladesh and Pakistan.

Satyavadi

satyavadi,

(Re post#125 on the Lahore Declaration ---board)

{{The whole basis of the TNT was that Muslims and Hindus of British India were two different nations, and hence could not co-exist in one nation}}

Since my knowlege of that era`s history is limited, I will accept what you say is true & I stand corrected.

Your post made me realise that any Indian leader who lets go of Kashmir will probably be assassinated.

My conclusion is it is India`s misfortune is that it will be perpetually caught in this trap. India will never catch up with the developed world. Yes, India may delude herself & act as a regional superpower, & sometimes even a bully. As long as she is tied up with these successive uprisings & deal in an authoritarian manner, she will jump from one frying pan into another. I guess that is the fate of my old country.

If Indians are saying ``its OK, we accept that fate & we`ll make it despite that``; all i can say is ``good luck, you have a hard & unending task ; you have voluntarily chosen to bear this unnecessary burden on your shoulders``. If India`s goal is only to be better off than Pakistan, I feel sorry for them.

At times like this I feel real glad I got the Hell out of there. I feel even better that I accepted US citizenship. I know Indians dont need my sympathy. Thats OK, but they cant stop me for giving my opinion.

Re: shankar

``I`m not pretending to be the smartest guy on Chowk. There are many on Chowk who are much smarter than me; you included.``

This has nothing to do with who is smart and who is not....

``This is just one hindu`s opinion. Incidentally, it is similar to those in my family in India & most of my hindu friends here.``

Well you and those you speak of are entitled to those opinions...but I am also informing you that there are plenty others who feel that if Kashmir is given away on the grounds of it being a Muslim majority state, then a lot of Hindus are going to become militant in their demands to have complete segregation....the few Muslims who want to separate (and their Pakistani brethen) need to consider the well-being of their 150 million coreligionists.

``I feel that if the RSS/BJP`s ideology becomes the dominant discourse in India, it will bring nothing but disaster for India`s future.``

This has nothing to do with the RSS ideology...the people I speak of above do not all support the RSS...in fact many of them are perfectly happy and fine living side by side with Christians. Some of them have married Christians...

``Speaking about Kashmir--I`m not condoning what Pakistan is doing; or even what the homegrown harkat-ul-whatever is doing. Part of secluarism means you should sit & listen to people when they have a beef.``

That`s a fine idea but what do you expect to hear when you sit down with them?? That they want to seccede because they are sick of the violence, terror, and human rights violations by the army? Do you think that`s a secret? And how are you going to address their concerns? Withdraw the army so the Pakistani mujahideen terrorists invade the place like vermin and run amock shooting girls for wearing jeans?

I don`t have a solution either...all I am saying is that the matter is complicated.

RSaxena,

{{Who are you to decide that for everyone? You don`t even live in the country. There`s a reason why the BJP has more support now than it did in the past.

``RSS doesnt speak for all hindus.``

Right, but neither do you.}}

Youre absolutely right. I`m not trying to be a representative for a faction of hindus. In fact,I say this with all humility, I could be wrong. I`m not pretending to be the smartest guy on Chowk. There are many on Chowk who are much smarter than me; you included.

This is just one hindu`s opinion. Incidentally, it is similar to those in my family in India & most of my hindu friends here. I feel that if the RSS/BJP`s ideology becomes the dominant discourse in India, it will bring nothing but disaster for India`s future. I feel the BJP won because they played their cards very cunningly & they were helped by Pakistan`s stupidity.

Speaking about Kashmir--I`m not condoning what Pakistan is doing; or even what the homegrown harkat-ul-whatever is doing. Part of secluarism means you should sit & listen to people when they have a beef. When you take a highhanded approach like we have done to the Kashmiris or Sikhs, & give them the message ``might is right---love it or leave it``; it slaps secularism in the face.

Re: shankar

``India has recognised Pakistan as a distinct separate country. We accepted that contract at the time of independance. Whether we like it or not we should honor the terms of that contract.``

I agree completely...I never stated otherwise. God knows we don`t need a pack of jehadis in our country...keep them in their own.

``Hindus should not demand a separate state for hindus. As a hindu, I dont believe it is important or necessary.``

Who are you to decide that for everyone? You don`t even live in the country. There`s a reason why the BJP has more support now than it did in the past.

``RSS doesnt speak for all hindus.``

Right, but neither do you.

``As far as your example about ylh or KRashid, I`m afraid I didnt get your point. What difference does it make to us where they trace their roots to?``

Sorry, I should have been clearer. There`s tons of krashids and ylhs (muslims) in the subcontinent who claim roots exclusively in Arabia and have used that (amongst other things) as a basis for demanding a separate homeland. Well, why are they in the subcontintent to begin with and why should anyone be granting them land for anything? Kind of like the Palestinians` claims on Israel`s land.

Kashmir is a more complicated matter than you make it out to be. It has everything to do with the secularism you wax on about. And I know the human rights violations occur.....put an army that size in any part of the world and its guaranteed to happen. Take out the mujahideen terrorists and back goes the army and the human rights violations with them.

TNT,

The following is from nation of today,

Referring to interview of Altaf Hussain on Zee TV, Farooq said that Altaf had clearly mentioned that `we want to attain our right within the geographical boundaries of Pakistan. He said as far as the debate on the two-nation theory and the division of the Subcontinent were concerned, it was purely academic topic with political overtones.

Altaf Hussain had presented his views with arguments and those who disagreed should reply with historical facts, he said. Is it sensible to use state force in reply. Why the champion of the two-nation theory do not open the borders of Pakistan for the Muslims of India. Why the stranded Pakistan living in Bangladesh are not repatriated to Pakistan, he asked.

///Many of the pak supporters of TNT and jihad are unaware that india still allows the return of hindus to india, in fact last year 400 hundred returned, and can live any where except in certain border areas and have to surreneder the pak passport. The pakistanis while expressing their concern about barbri and you name it do not want their own brothern in their country, the land of the pure.

RSaxena,

{{By the way, what are we to do with the 150 million other Muslims who remain behind in India after Kashmir secedes? The muslims get their homelands in the form of Pakistan and Kashmir....what about the Hindus?}}

The whole basis for the TNT was that muslim majority areas should go to Pakistan. India has recognised Pakistan as a distinct separate country. We accepted that contract at the time of independance. Whether we like it or not we should honor the terms of that contract.

Those 150 million muslims chose to remain in India after partition. If they arent happy in India, they should migrate to Pakistan, like millions of mojharis. Has any Indian govt prevented them from leaving? However, those who have chosen to remain in India have as much right to live there as hindus.

Hindus should not demand a separate state for hindus. As a hindu, I dont believe it is important or necessary. I also believe a majority of hindus agree with me. A poorly operating secular system is better than no secularism at all. RSS doesnt speak for all hindus. This idiocy about Hindutva will destroy India.

As far as your example about ylh or KRashid, I`m afraid I didnt get your point. What difference does it make to us where they trace their roots to? They are Pakistanis, not Indians.

Re: shankar

By the way, what are we to do with the 150 million other Muslims who remain behind in India after Kashmir secedes? The muslims get their homelands in the form of Pakistan and Kashmir....what about the Hindus? Can we ship all 150M muslims off to Pakistan and Kashmir so the Hindus can have their own homeland too?

And since we are on the topic of freedom and conquerors...how did these Iranian and Persian crooks (as ylh and krashid said of their origins) end up in India??? Shouldn`t they go back to wherever the hell it was they came from and leave the Hindu kafir`s land to the Hindu kafir?

Urstruly #157

Your other posts do not support your claim that you are a man of few words.

And would it not be better to do your little background checks before shooting from the hip?

URstruely,

Wait a sec. Are you saying you are one of the Chowk staff who has access to my real name & home address?! Now I`m really getting paranoid:)