Defend the Country, not its Government

RE: Shankar

I am a man of few words-that`s all. Sorry about the one liner again.

PS. A little backgroud check confirmed that you are kosher :)

Anjum

Re post#155

Many thanks for the input. I`m relieved to know that there is at least one person on Chowk who thinks like me:)

I was particularly impressed by your letter ``To Bomb or not to Bomb``. It reminded me of a famous saying in Godfather III ``Finance is like a gun; Politics is to know when to pull the trigger`` Alas, our desi mentality is such that we have more testesterone than common sense. In that respect, both Indians & Pakistanis are doomed to the same gutter.

Let me stick my neck out & give my 2 cents about the most sensitive button--Kashmir. What I`m going to say will undoubtedly piss a lot of Indians, but I dont care. Lets, for once, think ``outside the box``, if you will--ie,lets keep our nationalistic egos & our testesterone on the shelf. Lets also ,for the time being , keep what Pakistan is doing in Kashmir on the side.

What India is doing in Kashmir is wrong, TERRIBLY WRONG!! Lets, cut through our bs DENIAL about plebisite. The REAL reason why India doesnt want a plebisite is because the majority of Kashmiris will opt for secession. The very fact that India is giving a 100 bs reasons for not honoring the original UN resolution are mere rationalisations for this mass nationalistic denial. If the Indian govt was confident that Kashmiris will opt to stay within India, I`ll guarantee you they will conduct a plebisite tommorrow. We cloak our egos with these millions of rationalisations & justify our highhanded subjugation of Kashmiris.

Think for a minute. Isnt that what our British lords did to us for 400 years!? I`m sure the British mentality in that era was that Great Britian is a benevolent power, a benevolent dictatorship. The countries who accept their crown & domination will be rewarded by British education, British institutions, British jurisprudence & all that good stuff. The British righteously believed that their empire would ``civilise`` these backward medevial societies & bring them into the modern era. In the minds of Churchill et all, Britain was indeed doing good for India & dissmissed all the crazy ideas of independance from half naked fakirs.

Indian freedom fighters like Gandhi ,Nehru & Jinnah acknowleged that there are many good things about the British. Their contention was that they will be very happy to emulate democracy, civil service, British common law etc etc. But first & foremost, no matter how benevolent you think you are, the fact that the British are ruling India is unacceptable. Its subjugation, pure & simple. Might is NOT right. So, first & foremost we want freedom. If you give us freedom, we will carry out what is good about the British legacy & even be good friends.

Well, if we Indians are very proud of those principles, isnt it absolute hypocracy that we will not acknowlege this in Kashmir? Nehru was more of a pragmatist & wasnt objective about Kashmir because he was Kashmiri. I feel if Gandhi was alive today, he would have blasted the human rights violations India is commiting in Kashmir. We Indians justify what we are doing in Kashmir to Pakistani ``mischief``. Heck, we are missing the big picture! Two wrongs dont make a right! Unfortunately, our desi mindset dripping with testesterone & paranoid insecurity about our neighbor, would rather bleed just because the other guy is bleeding more. Thats absolute STUPIDITY! Both are nations are digging themselves into a deeper & deeper hole, with no end in sight. Not to mentiont he unkindest cut of all--the suffering of the Kashmiri people.

Given our testesterone filled egos, even a nuclear war is not out of the question. NATO & Warsaw pact had more maturity than us. Clinton was absolutely right when he called our region ``the most dangerous place in the world``. When the Indian President criticised him as alarmist, it just showed the extent of denial used by the Indian govt.

URstruely,

{{My condolences to your patients/clients ;)}}

I notice your comments about my posts are usually one liners. Its OK yaar, feel free to disagree with me. I can take constructive criticism. But please dont accuse me of being a RAW agent or whatever you were trying to say on the other thread:)

I`m not qualified to comment on military tactics & strategy or theoritical politics. But being a psychiatrist, I`m particularly interested in how Indians & Pakistanis interact as individuals on Chowk & how our respective governments think, from a psychological standpoint. So my previous 2 posts were 1 Indian psychiatrist`s opinion of what happened these past few years. That does`nt necessarily mean my views are correct. If they are not, I`ll be the first one to admit that I stand corrected.

After going to several psychiatric conferences all over the US, I roughly estimate Indians & Pakistanis combined are atleast 30% off all US psychiatrists. So I`m almost 100% sure that I`m not the only psychiatrist participating on Chowk. I`d particularly like to hear from those psychiatrists what their take on about what has happened in the subcontinent. One of the criteria of being a good psychiatrist, is that he/she seldom agrees with a colleague:)

Fuzair & rest of Pak posters,

Just in case any Pakistani was offended with the tone of my post, I apologise in advance. Stupidity is not a Pakistani characteristic. The Indian govt probably has people who are 7 times more stupid.

I also apologise to ylh for bringing him as an example. My analogy was just to show that Pakistan has a lot of brilliant people, like ylh. Like ylh, I`m sure the Pakistan govt/military has many itelligent people too. But collectively, they have vulnerable psychological buttons, which if pressed at the opportune time, cause them to behave impulsively. When you do that, you dig yourself into a hole.

When India conducted Phokaran II, not only was I offended because they needlessly started another nuclear arms race; esp at a time when the cold war ended & both superpowers were actively destroying their nuclear arsenals. It was totally unnecessary & uncalled for. I also felt it was the beginning of the end for India.

The weeks before the Pakistani response, Indian public opinion was beginning to experience reality & protests were beginning to take place on the streets. Pakistan`s stock was skyhigh. The Western press were scrambling over each other to interview Pakistani govt officials. They all revelled in the spotlight. The foreign minister even admonished Clinton for not ``using their good offices`` to act as a honest broker in Indo-Pak disputes(as he had done in the Middle East), despite repeated pleas to him from Pakistan. He got a lot of IR mileage out of that. Clinton was very pissed at India; as were the Western Allies & Japan. India`s traditional sugar daddy, the Soviet Union was in ruins & wouldnt/couldnt come to India`s rescue. Scores of countries begged & even ``diplomatically ,economically bribed`` Pakistan not to follow suit.

I`m getting more & more convinced that the BJP is stupid, but they are definitely not CRAZY. India would have been crazy to conduct a preemptive strike against Pakistan. Even the hawks in the Indian govt/military know that attacking Pakistan in a conventional war is not a cakewalk ;like Saddam taking over Kuwait. Unlike the Kuwaitis, the Pakistanis would fight to the last man. Pakistan`s military is one of the best equipped & trained professional fighting force in the developing world--dont you agree? Even if India could ultimately win a conventional war, she would suffer grevious losses & irreperable damage. India`s military equipment is aging. Besides, do you think the rest of the world would stand by idly! Most of the Islamic countries would rush men & material to Pakistan. I would`nt be surprised if the US gave Pakistan the guarantee of a nuclear umbrella.In todays new world order nobody tolerates a bully (esp if the US President is pissed at the bully). Ask Saddam or Milosovic, if you dont believe me.

India would have been in an economic & diplomatic shithouse. The BJP would have fallen long before that (central govts in the coalition raj have fallen on flimsier reasons). The BJP & RSS, the main nemesis of Pakistan, would be in permanent political exile. The revolution & economic bankrupcty, would have been India`s fate, not Pakistan`s. Kashmir would have seceded by now.

The BJP pushed 2 buttons, that are Pakistani vulnerabilities

1) An intense need to compete with India at every level. Its a matter of national prestige. It doesnt matter how pathetic we are, at least were better than India! I bet you if India won the soccer world cup tommorow, within 5 yrs Pakistan will develop a soccer team that will beat India:) If India has the bomb, Pakistan will eat grass & develop the bomb. If India explodes the bombs, its a matter of national honor that Pakistan does the same, as a proud newspaper said ``blast for blast``!

2) India is out to destroy Pakistan, no matter what! Now, if you start quoting BJP/RSS webpages, dont bother. Believe it or not, most Hindus are moderate (like Pakistanis) & want peaceful coexistence. Granted, if the circumstances were right (& God was on our side) we`d love to kick youre butt, as I`m sure most Pakistanis would say vice versa:) Even the BJP is not as crazy to destroy themselves in the process of trying to destroy Pakistan. Disagree with me if you like, but paranoia about India is Pakistan`s weakness. Their troop buildup simply pushed that paranoid button--just to ensure that Pakistan doesnt hesitate about the ``tit for tat``.

This nonsense in SAsia was started by India, who drew ``first blood`` by exploding the bomb. Eventhough I love my country, I am incensed at her irresponsible behaviour. I think she should have been punished with the fate Pakistan suffers today for starting this crap.

What has happened in these past 2 or so years is nothing short of a miracle. Today India looks secure & confident & Pakistan is stuggling. Vajpayee, the man ultimately responsible for all this is invited to address the US Congress; NS is in jail, Mushy is in the economic/ diplomatic doghouse. Who lost this ``battle``?

Think about this. Did this miracle occur because of Indian cunning & Pakistan is so ``bhoola bala`` that she became the proverbial bakra? Or did Pakistan shoot herself in the foot by exploding the bomb & then carry out Kargil? I remember that open letter on Chowk many intelligent Pakistanis wrote to Nawaz Sharif, imploring him not to get sucked into this trap. Alas, NS/Pakistan did`nt listen to them.

Maybe there`s a third possibility--maybe Allah sided with India---tauba tauba!

RE Fuzair #150

``So this was a controlled incursion and not some sort of Pearl Harbor like strike.``

But India was caught totally offguards. If they were prepared, it wouldn`t have amounted to just a more-than-average round of skirmishes. In that respect, it was Pearl-Harborish. And in retrospect, with the pickle Pakistan ended up in, it definitely was Pearl Harbor-ish. The initial surprise lead to a resounding political and policy defeat.

RE: Shankar#147

My condolences to your patients/clients ;)

Re: Shankar #147

Actually the Kargil affair was done quite well in terms of plausible (OK, not too plausible since logistics in the region require that PakArmy resources be used) deniability. Regular army troops were not used, it was the NLI and, I believe, some Frontier Corp (could be Frontier Constabulary, not entirely sure) elements as well. These are lightly armed, paramilitary troops something like your BSF (without the armor--APC--or artillery/heavy mortar support) or Rashtriya Rifles or ITBP. In addition, there were some genuine Mujahideen as well but every Pakistani Army officer I have ever met who has served with them agrees that they are fanatics but lousy soldiers. Thus the nature of the incursion clearly signalled that this was not some massive preemptive strike but really only what Gen. Pervez Musharraf said it was, ``aggressive patrolling`` or a reconnaissance in force.

If the Kargil objective had been some sort of a premptive strike to wrest Siachen and change the reality on the ground in that part of IOK, using lightly armed paramilitary troops is really not the way to do it. No matter how much Indians sneer at us, Pakistanis aren`t THAT stupid. Even when regular PakArmy elements were used, it was to provide artillery support from inside Pakistan. Isn`t that provocative/an act of war? Not really. Both India and Pakistan regularly shell each other`s positions in Northern Areas and Kashmir, so thats nothing new. What is new is the level of firing.

So this was a controlled incursion and not some sort of Pearl Harbor like strike.

Certainly Kargil was a Godsend for the BJP--won them the elections, didn`t it? So it was clearly not in our national interest, with perfect 20-20 hindsight of course. However, as far as the Pakistani nuclear test goes, the general perception in Pakistani government and military circles is that Paksistan had no choice. Indian troop movements on the border were such that, in the perception of the Army, a preemptive strike on both the Pakistani Northern Areas/Kashmir and/or nuclear research facilites was more than likely. I believe that Indian hawks have long argued for a preemptive strike on Pakistani nuclear facilities, a la the Israeli raid on Iraq in the 1980s, and for Indian cross-border raids on ``terrorist`` camps inside Pakistan. The way the story was told to me was this. Hawkish elements in the Indian National Security establishment argued that the Pakistani nuclear programme was nowhere as far advanced as many have supposed. If Pakistan does not test in response to the Indians, this is because they cannot do so yet. Thus a massive Indian preemptive strike can be safely carried out.

I was talking to some fairly junior Army officers who were assigned to logistics for the Pakistani test and for a while after the Indian test there were no Pakistani preparations at all. It seems that the decision to carry out the test was taken only after the Pakistani government considered that Indian troop movements and attitudes had become absolutely belligerent and indicative of a preemptive strike.

So take it for what you think its worth. Many Pakistanis don`t feel that it was sheer stupidity to carry out the tests. I think we could have, for once, gotten the moral high ground on the Indians. But, if the Indians were indeed preparing a preemptive strike, thats another matter entirely.

Regards.

a question,

The following is from a news item in dawn of today,

Maulana Abdul Sattar Edhi calls begging a big ``industry`` where a newcomer can earn as much as Rs 20,000 per month while an old hand could make Rs100,000. This he learnt from questioning women whose husbands are drug addicts and widows who take to begging. Such women are ``trained`` how to beg by ``champions`` in the field.

//is this person the same Edhi that chowk wallahs appear to praise so much.

POWER OF POLICE,

In kargill an allegedly rag tag group of jihadists pinned down the indian army, in delhi a group blind protesters have attacked and injured eight policemen. When will india develop a virulent culture like pakistan where even the mullahs travel with armed escorts. From hindustan times of today,

City



Blind students break barricade, attack cops

HT Correspondent

(New Delhi, October 19)

Over fifty blind students who were holding a demonstration near IP College in Civil Lines area bit policemen and hit them with sticks after breaking the police barricade. Thirty three of them were arrested and booked for rioting.

Eight policemen were injured in the incident. The police said that 56 students from Seva Kutir, Panchkuian Road and from Trans-Yamuna congregated near the barricade at 11 a.m. today saying that they would gherao Vidhan Sabha if they could not meet the Director Social Welfare to discuss their demand for hostel accomodation.

Fuzair,

{{There is one scenario that does put Kargil in perspective and that makes sense to me. The whole point of the Kargil incursion was to invite a large-scale Indian military response. Fighting would rapidly escalate and threaten to reach crisis (war) proportions. The West, especially the US, would be petrified at the thought of a full-scale war between two nuclear powers and intervene to force a cease-fire and compel India to the negotiating table over Kashmir}}

I`m dissapointed that this logic makes sense to you. From a psychological standpoint that kind of logic is idiotic.

Let me explain .If a kid craves attention & engages in naughty or destructive behavior, adults will pay attention to him. Overwhelmingly, adults will respond to ``negative attention`` with anger. In the case of kids, that anger easily subsides because adults understand that kids are immature.

However,when grown men or govts engage in this kind of negative attention, the rest of the world responds negatively. No matter how noble youre cause, the act of provoking this kind of brinkmanship, especially when both sides have nuclear weapons is ABSOLUTELY STUPID!! Does it surprise you that even Pakistan`s all weather friend told you to cut the crap?!

I certainly hope for the sake of Pakistan that it was`nt Mushy who thought up this logic. If so, Pakistan has an absolute fool for a CE.

The Olympic massacre in Munich definitely highlighted the plight of the Palestinians & brought it to the forefront of the International news. Do you think it HELPED the Palestinian cause!? IMHO, it was DESTROYED !! After that most people in the world, esp the West, would equate Palestians to terrorists--not poor displaced refugees.

Pakistan lost a golden opportunity to internationalise Kashmir. That was when India stupidly exploded the bomb. If Pakistan had`nt done the ``tit for tat``, India would have been an outcast today--sorta like an Asian Serbia.

Let me state that if the BJP has true friends, it is the mujahadeen & their patron, the govt of Pakistan. Its common knowledge that neither the BJP or the previous Indian govts ever had the aptitude for great IR. Internationally, Pakistan always has had more friends than India. But what India is really good at is baiting Pakistan, who then makes stupid impulsive decisions & land up playing into the hands of India.

There have been 2 occassions where India internationally isolated Pakistan---in 71 & 99. Let me argue that India did it by exploiting your weakness than great international diplomacy. What Pakistan should realise by now is you can never get international (read Western) sympathy by aiding & abetting terrorists. I dont care how loudly you call those mujahadeen ``freedom fighters``. To the West they are terrorists, pure & simple. Now you can moan & groan that the West is hypocritical, as much as you like. That doesnt make a damn bit of difference. Live with it! Do you really think that India has the power to influence the Western media so effectively? If yes, alas, you give us too much credit.

I see this on Chowk all the time. Ylh, IMO is a truely intelligent & multitalented young man. However, he has a few very sensitive buttons. All you have to do is poke those buttons & a very intelligent young man turns into a fire breathing dragon & sometimes says things that dont usually come out of the mouths of mature people. I have to admit some of us Indians like to poke those buttons just to watch ylh fire off about 10 posts one after the other. When India burst the bomb they were certain that Pakistan would`nt rest until it followed suit. India knew, at least for 10 yrs, that Pakistan had the bomb. The BJP took a huge gamble by conducting the tests, but I guess they knew if the pressed the right button, Pakistan would respond as predicted--& then dig herself into a hole.

Instead of lambasting Indians for being ruthless, cunning, devious, without honor etc etc--it would be much better for Pakistan to look inward, understand her weaknesses & bolster them. All that anti-Indan rhetoric falls on deaf ears, not just in India but in the West as well. If you really want to beat us, use the brain that Allah has given you. But first you should`nt succumb to your massive nationalistic ego---its a fatal button.

There is special feature on Pakistan on the latest issue of Foreign Affairs

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/issues/0011/stern.html

Foreign Affairs November/December 2000

Pakistan`s Jihad Culture

By Jessica Stern

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 143)

Dear Fuzair:

I have no reason to believe that Nawaz Sharif was not consulted or he wasn’t a willing actor in the Kargil fiasco. I, however, think that there are some serious problems in the way our army Generals make their militaristic plans. In 1965, Ayub Khan sent infiltrators in Kashmir with the view that India will not retaliate the way she did. I don’t know anything about wars and warfare, but my common sense suggests that Kargil was no Siachin.

Yes, Nawaz Sharif chickened out under domestic, global pressure, and particularly the rightful US pressure; but he made a sensible decision perhaps because he had no other alternative. This is a story that needs to be told to the people of Pakistan; otherwise the army Generals will continue to engage in their misguided actions just to reproduce the institution of army at all costs. This is a thesis that needs to be examined seriously by well-informed and intelligent Pakistanis like you, Feroz, Umair, and Mateen.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

RE: Prof. Bilal

{``P.S. Aren`t you the one who has invited a teetotaler (i.e. me) to drink. If yes, long time no see.``}

My 70 hrs/week at a new startup leave little time for interaction. I can modify my offer (from a drink at Fisherman`s Wharf) to Gujrati masala tea at a Milpitas mithai shop!

{``Comment: Don`t you still realize that the Communist were right. They gave a good advise to Pakistan and Pakistanis.``}

I also realize that the communists themselves failed to act on this ``good`` advise in the Soviet Union and instead of following a policy of peace and good neighborly relations chose to attack and occupy their smaller neighbors. Pakistan on the other hand is just trying to defend itself from is much larger belligerent neighbor and any sign of weakness will increase this belligerency.

sincerely

Re: Ahmadb #141

Dear Prof. Bilal,

I stand corrected. GHQ would probably have pushed it along further and invited a much larger scale Indian response. But, I ask you, if my scenario is correct, would escalating a notch or two more in Kargil have caused the US to bring India to the negotiating table? Probably not and, in any case, NS turned chicken first and compelled the Army to back down, thereby conclusively turning Kargil into a disaster. I will agree that he probably prevented a larger one but he still gets the blame for it.

Regards.

LONG ARM OF THE CE,

Some pakistanis on the chowk have stated that TNT is not relevant today, now is the time to wait for the knock. From dawn of today.

A caveat, I am not a double agent for ISI, but a tripple agent, and I am not reporting the names of those who have betrayed TNT.



19 October 2000 Thursday 20 Rajab 1421

Leaders to be dealt with strictly over Anti-Pakistan utterances: Govt

By Ihtashamul Haque

ISLAMABAD, Oct 18: The cabinet on Wednesday decided to take serious action against those political and regional leaders who were making anti-Pakistan statements in and outside the country.

The meeting, presided over by Chief Executive Gen Pervez Musharraf, consumed most of its time in discussing the statements being made from London by MQM chief Altaf Hussain, Ataullah Mengal, Mahmood Khan Achakzai and Syed Imdad Shah against the two-nation theory, Pakistan and army, sources said.

``Gen Haider sahib, people are talking against the national security, the army, the two-nation theory and geographical boundaries...why don`t you take action against them?,`` the CE was quoted as having asked Interior Minister Moinuddin Haider during the meeting.

He directed the minister to find out what could be done immediately to prevent such statements and ensure strict punishment to those responsible.

The CE asked how an MQM delegation had gone to India and made statements against Pakistan there despite the fact that some of its members were on the exist control list.

``You better know what is the punishment for talking against the Constitution``, an interior ministry official told Dawn after the meeting, adding the government had decided to be ``real tough`` with those who were anti-Pakistan and that this time they could not escape punishment.

The meeting was told that a London-based Indian media network was projecting the activities of anti-Pakistan elements. The issue became serious when those leaders gathered on Sept 17 and openly talked about breaking the country and hurled accusations at the Quaid-i-Azam. The two-nation theory, sources said, had been challenged by the MQM leader that has forced the government to take notice of their activities.

``...now whosoever talks against Pakistan, whether here or abroad, will have to face serious consequences,`` warned another official.

According the official, the cabinet was briefed as to why a group of politicians was against the government and had even started talking against the very existence of the country.

///It is time for pakistanis on the chowk to get back to gutter talk and personal slander to avoid certain death by the agents of ISI.

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 140)

Dear Fuzair:

Your statement: ``When this became clear, GHQ immediately deescalated the fighting [in Kargil].``

Comment: I am no supporter of Nawaz Sharif. I think, it was him who agreed to do so in Washington, D.C., plausibly against the wishes of the GHQ. Please give the poor soul some credit that he really deserves.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad