The Burden of Virginity

I guess a bride who wasnt a virgin wouldnt be blushing too much . . . comparing maybe . . .

In my response I will only assume the arrange marriage situation

Firstly, if you are getting married desi style I would hardly think that wedding night would be the time in particular when you will talk about such thing, unless its a question of insecurity. The simple reason is that it will be too late in the night and both parties (the bride and the groom) are too tired too even think of sex.

However, if such conversation does take place there could be few scenarios and possible indication of your future - 1) If the marriage is arranged but the bride and the groom both has been ``around the block``, a rational guy would be understanding and most probably it would be a non issue or at the least he would prefer not to know. Otherwise, you will find out what your mother told you to be true.

2) If the guy is a ``virgin`` and does expect his newly weded wife to be the same then again it is on the rationality of the person in question and how stronly he feel about virginity.

My point is its really not about sex its about how one feels (negatively or positively) about it.

There is also the lurking fear in the minds of desis that somehow a spouse who has been *there * will automatically compare every subsequent experience with it.

Fear of inadequacy perhaps ?? What if you don`t measure upto it - after all first experiences are known to influence people profoundly...right ?

a.bismal,

I`m surprised to hear that no one really talks about the violation of mutual trust involved in this wedding night scenario. I think that the rules of virginity apply equally to guy or girl--there should be no double-standard. If the guy had admitted the same thing, I would be equally outraged. The issue for me isn`t the physical act of losing one`s virginity (ie the hymen or whatever), but the emotional/spiritual/and even physical cost involved in sex in general.

Sex in this society has been reduced to a very physical and sensual act. ``Everybody is doing it`` is the popular mantra (if you want to be like everybody else!) Instead, sex has a spiritual and vulnerablility aspect too, that can be lost altogether, or if ignored/forgotten, can be taken advantage off. It can lose some of its meaning. I would suggest that people who DON`T see a big deal in virginity are probably missing out on something.

For all our Western beliefs of being ``free``, there are a large number of burdens that come with it, some of which you mentioned and are just not worth it (the pragmatic argument). Alternatively, ``saving oneself for marriage`` is an investment you make in yourself and in your spouse...it speaks to your own self-worth, and even self-discipline. If you appreciate this kind of healthy self-appreciation and strength, you`ll probably seek it in a spouse and in yourself. Probably if you`re a virgin, you have other values that come along with it that also speak toward the same strengths. No one`s asking you to become a monk, but some restraint is an attractive quality. Say what people want, no one wants to live with a ``slut``, whether guy or girl.

Make no mistake--premarital sex is a serious sin. Those guilty of such crimes are said to literally jump due to the hell flames under them, in the after life. For your own sake, never do it if you fear God.

Urstruly #147

Thanks for your insightful and interesting post. I alluded to some of these issues in my post #1. Unfortunately, liberal democracies put a very high value on freedom/rights/liberty of individuals to choose what is right/wrong for them. And although, my view in this matter is not based on any study (systematic or otherwise), I am inferring from apparent peace, prosperity, and social justice prevalent in societies where liberal democracy is practised, that shortcoming of liberal democracies i.e. downside of individualism, are considerably outweighed by the benefits society reaps as a result of liberal democracy.

However, I do not concur with views of some participants that casual, extramarital sex does not have any repercussions for individual(s) or society.


Your statement:

“1. The arguments and assertions such as “My virginity is my business and my asset”, “Pre-marital sex is a training course to do things ‘right’ at the wedding night” and even crudely put, “It is just an interaction of meat with meat-what’s the big deal” make sense if you somehow take an event of sexual encounter as a discrete event-having no effect, whatsoever, on anything that matters in ones life; and also ignoring the basic sciences of human physiology, sociology, and psychology. “

I do not have any in-depth understanding of the physiological, sociological, and psychological repercussions of such behaviour of individuals on a society, but it can be argued (based on nothing but my personal view, and intuition) that once a person gets into the habit of casual relationships / casual sex, he/she is likely to relapse into such behaviour/activity even after marriage… As they say, old habits die-hard! If one has changed 20-30 (or even 10-15) boy friends/girl friends in one’s life, then how can he/she be contented with one person for the rest of his/her life after marriage? It would be a dreadful thought for such a person to be restricted in his/her sexual activity in such a manner - all on account of signing the dotted line.

Your statement:

“6. Thus, in conclusion, this behavior must be discouraged at all levels-and especially its admission after marriage (especially at wedding night) must be sternly dealt with.”

What do you mean by “sternly dealt with”?

I still think that an analysis of why ancient cultures put so much value to virginity would be interesting. Not all primates encouraged promiscuity of individuals.

On the other hand, there are some very interesting studies, and feminist literature dealing with this issue under the heading of “female infidelity.” Their argument is also based on the naturalness of this behaviour. It is natural for males and females to mate with the best looking (physically, mentally, intellectually) partner so that his/her offspring can inherit all these good qualities/traits. A study of a poor shanty town in India found that most women preferred to marry men who were financially sound, but when it came to reproducing offspring, an estimated 30% of women sought physically better looking men to get pregnant with. Another study of males indicated that while his female partner went away for work to another town, his brain instructed the reproductive organs to produce sperms about 100 times in greater quantity than normal. When the female partner arrived back and they had sex, the sperm count was astronomical This was apparently due to a subconscious fear of “female infidelity” and the large number of sperms were to counter the possibility that she may have had sex while in the other town.

Repression of females all over the world, especially in conservative societies like Pakistan (chadar aur char deewari, purdah etc.), is explained on the basis of this fear of female infidelity.

“WHAT’S WRONG WITH THAT?”

Dear A.Bismil,

``What is wrong with that?`` One must have noticed this repetitive phrase in various interactor`s posts. Despite a question mark at the end of the phrase I don’t think that writers intend it to be taken as a question; I would rather take it is a positive assertion. I hope your intention was also not to run a survey to find out what people (particularly females) think about the issue at hand; you could have easily found your answers in any other issue of Cosmopolitan.

Whereas hamidm has shed light on this issue through a particular angle, I think we should explore other angles and points of view too:

1. The arguments and assertions such as “My virginity is my business and my asset”, “Pre-marital sex is a training course to do things ‘right’ at the wedding night” and even crudely put, “It is just an interaction of meat with meat-what’s the big deal” make sense if you somehow take an event of sexual encounter as a discrete event-having no effect, whatsoever, on anything that matters in ones life; and also ignoring the basic sciences of human physiology, sociology, and psychology.

2. The phenomenon of extra-marital sex-whether pre-marital or post-marital- can be classified as a social behavior. I regret to say that it is an anti-social behavior. It breaks down the family structure, which may be considered as the basic unit of a society. One may argue that an individual is the basic unit of the society and not the family-but doesn`t this logic defeat itself? If an individual is more important than society then why do we need a society?

3. The human beings are different than protozoa and all other multi-cellular organisms in only one aspect and, that is, they possess moral values. Whether the nature of these moral values is revelational or it is based on continued development of human mind through successive experiences-they need moral values to accommodate an individual into the society. This logic leads us to the conclusion that an individual`s certain (instinctive) set of behavior must be conformed to the collective set of moral values of the society. In other words the best interest of the society overrides the individual`s urge to satisfy its basal set of instincts.

4. A society may bargain some of its moral values to sanction individuals some leeway-but observation tells us that the society as whole pays dearly and so does the individual-it’s a lose-lose situation.

5. Unfortunately, observation also tells us that a person involved in extra-marital sexual behavior is most likely to repeat the pattern even if he/she is involved in a monogamous relationship (marriage or common law-doesn`t matter). This behavior thus fails the purpose of a family and consequently it is anti-social. Ultimately, humanity loses at large.

6. Thus, in conclusion, this behavior must be discouraged at all levels-and especially its admission after marriage (especially at wedding night) must be sternly dealt with.

7. Observation also tells us that, it is highly unlikely, that a marriage or a common law arrangement survives-if one or both partners had had extra-marital sex-before or after. We also observe that this phenomenon exhibits itself in a different manner in ``closed societies`` where the union may survive due to economical or societal compulsions but it can never be a (mutually) satisfactory relationship. The result is equally disastrous.

Whether we receive our moral guidance from our revelational knowledge-base or from the knowledge-base established by our powers of deduction and reasoning that evolved over the centuries, we reach the same set of conclusions. The observations confirm the naturalness of our conclusions. However, if we prefer to seek our moral guidance by studying the behavior of primates and establish our society on these observations then the best we can get is a society of clothed primates. But still one may argue,

“What’s wrong with that?”

What is the guarantee that the person who has sex before marriage will not commit adultery after the marriage. Afterall, sexual escapades are not new to that person. When two people are involved physically, are there no emotions involved in it ?

Assuming that your spouse has the heart, how can he/she reconcile to the fact that for you ( i don`t mean you, it`s just a figure of speech... ) marriage is just a joke and an instrument to ruin a person`s life.

hey,

just turned 24 ....3 weeks ago and still a virgin

.. and am i proud to be that ?? well yeah sort of

cause for men in this desi society have more then enough choices to run there horses whenever they wish too only a little guilt, a little pressure of society of religion could stop u from doing this ... only if thoes above mention things matter to you ... these things matter to me so i didnt did it !!

but the question is am I saving it so i could realy feel myself that I deserve a virgin wife ??

hell no !! i didn’t did it cause my guilt wont let me enjoy it anyway !!

well for the question ....

i wont marry anyone before knowing her real closely ...

(tough my mother wants me to be otherwise)

and if i know her and she is my type ... hell it dosent matter if she is virgin or not !!

as long as she wants me now more then anything too !!

peace !!!

Re:HAMIDM

more power to u hamidm...

needs guts to say this in the prevalent stale psuedo-intellectualism....

Bismil,
thanks for writing this very thought provoking article. It raises some very important
questions about female sexuality amongst Desis.
Sex and risk go together. Out of wedlock children in Eastern societies are not easily accepted without any fault of their own. In
Pakistan the Edhi Foundation is doing its level best to save infants produced out of wedlock. Sex
is not a crime before marriage (I`m sure that there are no such criminals out there on CHOWK except for Rehaan?) but it does involve much responsibility. It has created quite an impact in Western society and many problems have come to be associated with it.
In answer to your concluding question, my answer would have been ``Is that all?``
There are many more important things in life than
virginity. I prefer blushing brides AND GROOMS, but even if they are not first timers, the institution of marriage remains important.

Ras

PS. HamidM, you need to write more and publish regular articles on CHOWK. Stop sitting on the fence and jump in.

Putting hamidm`s illuminating perspective aside I have a sneaking suspision that the ladies protest too much about the double standards employed to judge premarital sexual activity of the two sexes. Women(if they had a choice) would prefer experienced men as boyfriends/husbands. Its the desi men who have a hard time if the shoe is on the other foot. But then men and women put a premium on different things in a potential spouse anyway. Why decry the double standards?

re ah #31:

Agreed. Pitiful yet poignant(I hope).

later

-sac

Re: Tahmed321

Its not acting as a batman that destroys and degrades a soldier`s spirit, its being treated as a virtual slave by the officer and his begum sahiba that does this. There is a big difference between a batman and a slave. The Gora Saab knew the difference. Our officers and, especially their wives, don`t.

I remember, in the stupidity and arrogance of youth, telling off a havildar (who was actually just doing his job) about something in no uncertain terms and being quite proud of how I had put the man, in front of several ORs, in his place. How dare a mere havildar tell me what to do!

I also recall my father`s reaction to this: he made it clear, also in no uncertain terms, that the man was the government`s servant and not mine and if I was to ever speak that way to any soldier again, my life would not be worth living and the next day I was to publicly apologize for my disgraceful behavior and ask for his forgiveness. I think the man was more embarrassed than I was.

Having to put up with stuff like this, day in and day out, from snot-nosed officer`s brats, and worse from their begum sahibas, is what destroys the batman`s spirit. Cleaning the officer`s shoes or polishing his pips does not.

Regards.

Whenever there is any criticism of the army, apologists like Field Marshal in waiting ROmair and hobbyty jump in enumerating in great detail the evils of politicians like NS and Benazir and at the same time demand a constitutional rule for the army in the government. The view is highly flawed because it tries to justify a wrong practice by discrediting another wrong practice.

A country always gets the leadership it deserves. The view that NS and his likes do not represent the ordinary Pakistani and need a higher life form(Generals) to guide them smacks of ignorance bordering on arrogance. Barring some isolated pockets, Pakistan is still a very primitive society and it elects people according to primitive laws of land-ownership and tribal affiliations. Even NS I would argue is a true representative of the area he represented in the parliament(Gowalmandi). He probably understands the concerns of the average ``Butt`` better than all the super Generals combined. Doubting that is an indictment of the political process they call representative democracy. At least come out and openly admit it. Invest in improving literacy levels, remove the Mullah from the center stage and the level of leadership one gets at the local level will improve automatically.

The leadership at the highest level even in highly developed democracies of the west comes from a very elite class that is very different from the leadership at the local levels. Even the average congressman or Senator in the US is not an intellectual fountainhead. These people are more interested in the welfare of their local precincts and lining the pockets of their lackeys and their constituents than in setting shining fortresses of democracy.

I`ve argued before that the Army does not fit the profile for providing leadership, intellectual or otherwise at the highest levels of political governance. This task has to be undertaken by the resident civilian elite in Paksitan. Bhutto probably had the best chance of asserting the civilian dominance. Something which he sadly squandered in grandoise fashion. The army as it is now will never reform itself till the point that external pressures and internal economic malaise result in a massive civilian uprising. The scenario may seem far-fetched but its not improbabale given the day-by-day deteriorating lot of the common man. Who will fill the power vacuum? The mullahs or the civilian elite who truly deserve it. My money is on the former.

later

-sac

It`s mostly just the dictation of our sexuality that women need liberation from, whether it be from the mullahs telling us what we can and can`t do in our beds, to now `so-called-emancipated, sexually obsessed` s. asian men, advising us to explore our sexuality- so that, hm… now my feudal lord doesn`t get bored in bed.

If it`s not one type of domination, it`s very quickly another…

scout #26:

[[aur please in logon say kaho gandi baatein mat karain. mujhe sharam aati hai parh kay. kaheen main dozakh ki aag main na jal jaun aisi waahiyaat baatein parh kay. ]]

i know what you mean... i never blush - but all this is making me. and it`s not even my wedding night... :) (which reminds me of my question, why the wedding night? anyway...)

rahi dauzag ki baat - you never know how you might get punished for this - maybe yeh jo tum idhar ghoom rahi ho instead of studying is your punishment? ;) repeat that prayer hamidm has posted - shayed muaf kardi jao...

alireza #23:

haha... where i live the ladies, when faced with such a situation (which is quite often), tell the guys about the relationships THEY`VE had with other WOMEN... and i kid you not...

hamidm #27:

[[they are young, hormone-crazy and in dire need of cold-showers .....]]

aha! that`s what we need here (where i live) - cold showers! but alas, cold water isn`t available that easily here - weather`s too hot... but Allah is most understanding and forgiving... it`s not our fault the weather`s too hot!