The Burden of Virginity
A Bismil October 15, 2000
#132 Posted by Lawyer2B on December 12, 2003 4:30:31 pm
Iv been in a situation like that. I found out that the girl I loved, and wanted to marry had lost her virginity at 13 (to a unspecified person), I also found out that once she lost it, she never looked back and she`d been `livin it up` so to speak. She`d lost it to an unknown (to me) guy, and then dumped him and slept with her khalas son (at 14). She then dumped her khalas son when she met me (I didnt know about this, as he lived in another city), poor guy had quite fallen for her too (she told him her brother had raped her,[ shocking, but totally untrue], and thats why she wasnt a virgin). I only found out a couple of years after we`d been going out, and she wasnt the one who told me. I had a hell of a time peicing it all together, but when I was done, it painted a very nasty picture. I dumped her the morning after the night I found out, she denyed it all to the end, as one would expect, even when I gave her concrete evidence. That kind of pisses a guy off. No one likes to be taken for a ride, but looking back now I dont have any real regrets. She was what she was, and I was what I was. If she had `issues` it was her loss, not mine. Im currently in the process of getting involved with another girl who I know is not a virgin, it makes me wary, but the fact that she told me well in advance, before I`d developed any feelings, goes in her favour.
When a woman tells her husband on her wedding night, you cant expect a guy to react well, you`v put him in a tough position and he will lash out, and odds are it will end in divorce. But when you give a guy a choice, you lay out what you are before him, and you allow him to decide if he wants anythin to do with you, you stand a better chance in the long run. True guys B|tch, guys will kill your rep, etc etc, but thats the chance you take when you chose to pop your cherry. In our society you cant have it all. Virginity attracts a premium, and if you give it up, you give up that premium. That might not be how it should be, but it is how it is. I can respect somone who`s lost their virginity, but I refuse to respect somone who lies about it to me, or who only tells me when I have no real choices.
When a woman tells her husband on her wedding night, you cant expect a guy to react well, you`v put him in a tough position and he will lash out, and odds are it will end in divorce. But when you give a guy a choice, you lay out what you are before him, and you allow him to decide if he wants anythin to do with you, you stand a better chance in the long run. True guys B|tch, guys will kill your rep, etc etc, but thats the chance you take when you chose to pop your cherry. In our society you cant have it all. Virginity attracts a premium, and if you give it up, you give up that premium. That might not be how it should be, but it is how it is. I can respect somone who`s lost their virginity, but I refuse to respect somone who lies about it to me, or who only tells me when I have no real choices.
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#131 Posted by Lawyer2B on December 12, 2003 4:30:31 pm
Iv been in a situation like that. I found out that the girl I loved, and wanted to marry had lost her virginity at 13 (to a unspecified person), I also found out that once she lost it, she never looked back and she`d been `livin it up` so to speak. She`d lost it to an unknown (to me) guy, and then dumped him and slept with her khalas son (at 14). She then dumped her khalas son when she met me (I didnt know about this, as he lived in another city), poor guy had quite fallen for her too (she told him her brother had raped her,[ shocking, but totally untrue], and thats why she wasnt a virgin). I only found out a couple of years after we`d been going out, and she wasnt the one who told me. I had a hell of a time peicing it all together, but when I was done, it painted a very nasty picture. I dumped her the morning after the night I found out, she denyed it all to the end, as one would expect, even when I gave her concrete evidence. That kind of pisses a guy off. No one likes to be taken for a ride, but looking back now I dont have any real regrets. She was what she was, and I was what I was. If she had `issues` it was her loss, not mine. Im currently in the process of getting involved with another girl who I know is not a virgin, it makes me wary, but the fact that she told me well in advance, before I`d developed any feelings, goes in her favour.
When a woman tells her husband on her wedding night, you cant expect a guy to react well, you`v put him in a tough position and he will lash out, and odds are it will end in divorce. But when you give a guy a choice, you lay out what you are before him, and you allow him to decide if he wants anythin to do with you, you stand a better chance in the long run. True guys B|tch, guys will kill your rep, etc etc, but thats the chance you take when you chose to pop your cherry. In our society you cant have it all. Virginity attracts a premium, and if you give it up, you give up that premium. That might not be how it should be, but it is how it is. I can respect somone who`s lost their virginity, but I refuse to respect somone who lies about it to me, or who only tells me when I have no real choices.
When a woman tells her husband on her wedding night, you cant expect a guy to react well, you`v put him in a tough position and he will lash out, and odds are it will end in divorce. But when you give a guy a choice, you lay out what you are before him, and you allow him to decide if he wants anythin to do with you, you stand a better chance in the long run. True guys B|tch, guys will kill your rep, etc etc, but thats the chance you take when you chose to pop your cherry. In our society you cant have it all. Virginity attracts a premium, and if you give it up, you give up that premium. That might not be how it should be, but it is how it is. I can respect somone who`s lost their virginity, but I refuse to respect somone who lies about it to me, or who only tells me when I have no real choices.
#130 Posted by cutandpaste on March 28, 2002 11:51:56 am
New Translation Puts `Kamasutra` in new Light
Wed Mar 27,12:32 PM ET
By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer
LONDON - More than 1,700 years after it was completed by an enigmatic Indian scribe, the ``Kamasutra`` is among the most famous Hindu books ever written — and, many believe, the most misunderstood.
Most who have encountered the book recall it as a do-it-yourself sex manual, an eye-opening encyclopedia of acrobatic positions.
Academics hope a frank new translation will help the ``Kamasutra`` — which means ``a treatise on desire`` — shake its saucy reputation and regain its status as a literary classic.
``It`s by far the most complete and interesting work about sexual psychology that has been written — a cross between `The Joy of Sex` and `Lady Chatterly`s Lover,``` said Wendy Doniger, who translated the book from the original Sanskrit with psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar.
``The great misconception is that it is about the positions, which is the silliest part of the book, and a very short part of the book,`` she added.
``Kamasutra`` was released today in Britain and Oxford University Press will hit bookstores in the United States in June.
Written probably in 3rd-century Northern India by Vatsyayana Mallanaga, ``Kamasutra`` catalogs sexual positions, enumerates the varieties of kissing and expounds on the amorous role of scratching and biting.
But it also tells readers how to flirt, conduct a lovers` quarrel, seduce someone else`s spouse and blend potions to stimulate a sagging libido.
It even advises a woman on ways to dump an unwanted lover: ``She talks about things he does not know about. She shows no amazement, but only contempt, for the things he does know about. She punctures his pride.``
With its aphoristic advice on attracting, satisfying, keeping and shedding a partner, the book is often more ``Sex in the City`` than sex manual.
``It is always said to be a book about man`s manipulation of women, but a great deal of it is about women`s manipulation of men,`` Doniger says. ``It`s really about power, politics and sex.``
Doniger, who teaches the history of religion at the University of Chicago, says the ``Kamasutra`` has been ill-served by its best-known English translation, completed in 1883 by British writer-explorer Sir Richard Burton.
Doniger says Burton`s language is ``Victorian and flowery,`` while the original Sanskrit is direct and robust.
``The Kamasutra is punchy, Hemingwayesque — `he touches her here, she bites him there,``` Doniger said.
``Burton uses the Hindu words `lingam` and `yoni` to refer to the sexual organs. These words are not in the original text. ... Burton takes all the ambiguity out, and makes it sound like some weird `Orientalist` thing, whereas the book is about us.``
The new Oxford Classics edition is noticeably more direct than its Victorian predecessor. What Burton calls ``supported congress,`` the new book terms ``sex standing up.``
The two editions agree, however, on the ``lotus`` position and the gymnastic embrace called ``splitting the bamboo.``
That kind of exotic eroticism has made ``Kamasutra`` the bane of generations of parents and teachers, and the book remains controversial. Indian-born director Mira Nair`s 1996 film, ``Kamasutra — a Tale of Love,`` loosely based on the book, was stalled for more than a year by Indian censors before finally being screened.
Doniger says the book`s reputation has obscured its value as a work of literature. She says it can be read as a play in seven acts, following its male and female protagonists from seduction through separation, and as an idealized portrait of a sophisticated, monied society.
``No one in this book ever goes to the shop, no one ever goes to see his mother. All you do all day is plan for the night and get ready for it,`` she said. ``Its like a Playboy Mansion life.
``Training parrots and mynah birds to talk and going to cockfights, what sort of food and liquor to serve at a party — the life of pleasure is beautifully evoked. But a lot of it is about men and women in ways that have not changed.
``It`s an enormously complicated book on the psychology of sex, the psychology of erotic arousal.``
And those illustrations — they were added much later.
``They`re an afterthought,`` Doniger said. ``A very famous afterthought.``
___
On the Net:
Oxford University Press: http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-280270-4
Wed Mar 27,12:32 PM ET
By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer
LONDON - More than 1,700 years after it was completed by an enigmatic Indian scribe, the ``Kamasutra`` is among the most famous Hindu books ever written — and, many believe, the most misunderstood.
Most who have encountered the book recall it as a do-it-yourself sex manual, an eye-opening encyclopedia of acrobatic positions.
Academics hope a frank new translation will help the ``Kamasutra`` — which means ``a treatise on desire`` — shake its saucy reputation and regain its status as a literary classic.
``It`s by far the most complete and interesting work about sexual psychology that has been written — a cross between `The Joy of Sex` and `Lady Chatterly`s Lover,``` said Wendy Doniger, who translated the book from the original Sanskrit with psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar.
``The great misconception is that it is about the positions, which is the silliest part of the book, and a very short part of the book,`` she added.
``Kamasutra`` was released today in Britain and Oxford University Press will hit bookstores in the United States in June.
Written probably in 3rd-century Northern India by Vatsyayana Mallanaga, ``Kamasutra`` catalogs sexual positions, enumerates the varieties of kissing and expounds on the amorous role of scratching and biting.
But it also tells readers how to flirt, conduct a lovers` quarrel, seduce someone else`s spouse and blend potions to stimulate a sagging libido.
It even advises a woman on ways to dump an unwanted lover: ``She talks about things he does not know about. She shows no amazement, but only contempt, for the things he does know about. She punctures his pride.``
With its aphoristic advice on attracting, satisfying, keeping and shedding a partner, the book is often more ``Sex in the City`` than sex manual.
``It is always said to be a book about man`s manipulation of women, but a great deal of it is about women`s manipulation of men,`` Doniger says. ``It`s really about power, politics and sex.``
Doniger, who teaches the history of religion at the University of Chicago, says the ``Kamasutra`` has been ill-served by its best-known English translation, completed in 1883 by British writer-explorer Sir Richard Burton.
Doniger says Burton`s language is ``Victorian and flowery,`` while the original Sanskrit is direct and robust.
``The Kamasutra is punchy, Hemingwayesque — `he touches her here, she bites him there,``` Doniger said.
``Burton uses the Hindu words `lingam` and `yoni` to refer to the sexual organs. These words are not in the original text. ... Burton takes all the ambiguity out, and makes it sound like some weird `Orientalist` thing, whereas the book is about us.``
The new Oxford Classics edition is noticeably more direct than its Victorian predecessor. What Burton calls ``supported congress,`` the new book terms ``sex standing up.``
The two editions agree, however, on the ``lotus`` position and the gymnastic embrace called ``splitting the bamboo.``
That kind of exotic eroticism has made ``Kamasutra`` the bane of generations of parents and teachers, and the book remains controversial. Indian-born director Mira Nair`s 1996 film, ``Kamasutra — a Tale of Love,`` loosely based on the book, was stalled for more than a year by Indian censors before finally being screened.
Doniger says the book`s reputation has obscured its value as a work of literature. She says it can be read as a play in seven acts, following its male and female protagonists from seduction through separation, and as an idealized portrait of a sophisticated, monied society.
``No one in this book ever goes to the shop, no one ever goes to see his mother. All you do all day is plan for the night and get ready for it,`` she said. ``Its like a Playboy Mansion life.
``Training parrots and mynah birds to talk and going to cockfights, what sort of food and liquor to serve at a party — the life of pleasure is beautifully evoked. But a lot of it is about men and women in ways that have not changed.
``It`s an enormously complicated book on the psychology of sex, the psychology of erotic arousal.``
And those illustrations — they were added much later.
``They`re an afterthought,`` Doniger said. ``A very famous afterthought.``
___
On the Net:
Oxford University Press: http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-280270-4
#129 Posted by arshadaltaf on August 14, 2001 4:54:31 pm
It would make me upset and may be wary for sometime but I will live and may even respect the girl for her honesty.
#128 Posted by angelamine1 on January 8, 2001 7:39:55 pm
actually virginity is not such a big thing. i would love my bride to be experienced
#127 Posted by samuel on December 29, 2000 1:56:34 pm
Bismal,
just saw your article. That`s an interesting question, what would ``we men`` do if we were found out our respective wives were no virgins.
Hmm.. well, I do`nt know, I have`nt been in that situation yet, only for the fact that I`m yet to wed, however, upon reflex and perhaps some rage she probably won`t get lucky that night.. :( -
On second thoughts, one could perhaps pull out the semi-automatic, and splatter one`s brain. The underlying thought and meaning to this particular phrase definitely carries a pun unto it. Read it how you may!! :)
But, from what I understand of my sense of humour, I`d give it a second thought perhaps, worry about it a little, but then again, I decided to marry this person for who she is, and what she means to me then and there. Not for what her past was/is, what she may or may not have done.
It would be unfair to hold anything of the past against her. Now and the tomrrow has always counted more in my books, then yesterday and the past.
Cheers
just saw your article. That`s an interesting question, what would ``we men`` do if we were found out our respective wives were no virgins.
Hmm.. well, I do`nt know, I have`nt been in that situation yet, only for the fact that I`m yet to wed, however, upon reflex and perhaps some rage she probably won`t get lucky that night.. :( -
On second thoughts, one could perhaps pull out the semi-automatic, and splatter one`s brain. The underlying thought and meaning to this particular phrase definitely carries a pun unto it. Read it how you may!! :)
But, from what I understand of my sense of humour, I`d give it a second thought perhaps, worry about it a little, but then again, I decided to marry this person for who she is, and what she means to me then and there. Not for what her past was/is, what she may or may not have done.
It would be unfair to hold anything of the past against her. Now and the tomrrow has always counted more in my books, then yesterday and the past.
Cheers
#126 Posted by arsniper on November 19, 2000 9:17:18 pm
A nicely written piece - I should say as the author had me waiting for the bad news till the end. Thank God there was none.
Every parent tells their child similar stories to keep them on track. Treats and consciences are the biggest motivator to stay away from bad.
However there was an added pincher in my case.
I was taught there are four kind of people in the world. When offered bad they react differently:
The first kind says no I won`t do this - I will get caught.
The second, says my parents told me not do this
The third says, my parents will be hurt if they find out.
The fourth says, I will not do this because this is wrong.
As for the authors question asking men how would they feel? While I am not an authority to speak on all men of the world`s behalf, but I know I will be hurt, that while I guarded and protected myself the one I love didn`t.
Certain things in life we should guard, protect and cherish them to share with our solemates. That is what integrity, morality, and most of all Islam demands from us.
Yours Truly
Ahmed
Every parent tells their child similar stories to keep them on track. Treats and consciences are the biggest motivator to stay away from bad.
However there was an added pincher in my case.
I was taught there are four kind of people in the world. When offered bad they react differently:
The first kind says no I won`t do this - I will get caught.
The second, says my parents told me not do this
The third says, my parents will be hurt if they find out.
The fourth says, I will not do this because this is wrong.
As for the authors question asking men how would they feel? While I am not an authority to speak on all men of the world`s behalf, but I know I will be hurt, that while I guarded and protected myself the one I love didn`t.
Certain things in life we should guard, protect and cherish them to share with our solemates. That is what integrity, morality, and most of all Islam demands from us.
Yours Truly
Ahmed
#125 Posted by savagely savvy on November 17, 2000 12:43:58 am
I`d be, ``cool, neither am I...lets just get it on baby``
#124 Posted by Alison judge on November 16, 2000 10:25:35 am
Dear A Bismil,
What a courageous and candid article, one that I`m sure strikes a chord with many readers. As someone who grew up in another culture but with similar pressures ( I am a pracicing Roman Catholic basd in the UK) I could relate deeply to much of what you were saying.
Ultimately this issue is, I believe, for you and you alone to have an opinion about. Any man who would think ``differently`` having discovered that the woman in his life has a sexual history is not a man to build a lie together with. Love, however it happens needs to be unconditional. A lifetime partnership needs to be strong, and double standards just don`t have space in such a bond.
Still trying to live out to the letter of my own faith the precepts that have been set out for me, in the face of such challenges as corrupt (and human!) priests and being viewed as essentially inferior or less pure for my gender by a sad minority of such clerics. That`s a challenge! But I wish you evrey happiness on your journey through life and am heartened by your thoughts on the topic. Ultimately, be true to yourself, discover yourself and treasure yourself. God willing the man in your life will delight in treasuring you, too.
With warmest wishes and salaams,
Alison Judge
What a courageous and candid article, one that I`m sure strikes a chord with many readers. As someone who grew up in another culture but with similar pressures ( I am a pracicing Roman Catholic basd in the UK) I could relate deeply to much of what you were saying.
Ultimately this issue is, I believe, for you and you alone to have an opinion about. Any man who would think ``differently`` having discovered that the woman in his life has a sexual history is not a man to build a lie together with. Love, however it happens needs to be unconditional. A lifetime partnership needs to be strong, and double standards just don`t have space in such a bond.
Still trying to live out to the letter of my own faith the precepts that have been set out for me, in the face of such challenges as corrupt (and human!) priests and being viewed as essentially inferior or less pure for my gender by a sad minority of such clerics. That`s a challenge! But I wish you evrey happiness on your journey through life and am heartened by your thoughts on the topic. Ultimately, be true to yourself, discover yourself and treasure yourself. God willing the man in your life will delight in treasuring you, too.
With warmest wishes and salaams,
Alison Judge
#123 Posted by krashid on November 12, 2000 10:53:12 am
Ziddi #
Too Ziddi.
The first point i.e matter of trust is most important.
Too Ziddi.
The first point i.e matter of trust is most important.
#122 Posted by ziddi on November 11, 2000 4:45:19 pm
In reply to your question I have a lot to say.
The thing is my reaction would depend on the situation.
Marriage first of all is a journey in which you need someone whom you can trust. The first question ,therefore , I would ask my wife would be why she did not confide in me earlier?
why did she not come straight out and tell me honestly before we were married.
Secondly , I have been raised in Pakistan as a Muslim and I have been fed the same principles that you seem to have gotten but without the hindee movie dialogues!....
more or less implying the same. It was not till i was about 18 that i realized i could get away with it. HOWEVER I CHOSE NOT TO! I have tried to be a decent guy and keep myself for my wife (since thats the term you have used!).
I have been in the states for about 4 years all alone and have been doing well. I have no financial problems I just finished my BBA/MIS and am working , my point being getting laid is not that difficult. I have chosen not to follow that path which many of my other friends have. My roomate who is from Karachi thinks its time for moj mastee and who cares bout a wife that is still a milestone yet to come. You will not believe how many times i am mocked by other friends for not being into it. I dont go clubbing
or dating. Like you said i use the same formula
look but do not talk/touch and that helps me stay focussed.
Well, my answer I guess is If i could retain my virginity why could she not. In the event of the following answers i would be willing to look it over i.e in the event that she was raped or had been in a marriage earlier. However, even in that case i had a right to know.
You tell me how you would feel if the guy you ended up marrying told you he had been married or been with a woman before?
I dont know what destiny has in store for me but i just hope my wife is someone who has the guts to confide in me and come out in the open with me.
It should be my choice to do what i believe is right not hers. If i have stayed a virgin inspite of having every opportunity in the world i would expect the same from the girl who is to be my wife. I have a right to know what she has been upto. If she chose to do it with someone she made a choice and did what you believed was right. Dont i deserve the right to choose ??
So you tell me do i deserve to be lied to??
should i live with someone who has lied to me from the first day we met. There is always enough time to mention ones past and give the other person a choice.
I have been in love and have every intention of telling my wife to be before we actually get hitched that i was in love with someone, and mind u it was not physical at all. NOTHING PHYSICAL, it was over before it started!.....
So if i can retain my virginity and respect my wife and the institution of marriage and be a Muslim why cant a girl from the same culture have done the same.
Yes , however, if i marry a non muslim who has been with other before me. I would be ok with that because when she becomes a Muslim as per my religion she is as clean as a new born and her life has just begun. As for those of you who think it is biggoted of me to expect someone to convert their religion , well I am not leaving mine and kids get screwed up in families where parents practice and preach diff. believes.
Anyways, I hope this answers your question.I would definately like to hear more from you.
ZIDDI
#121 Posted by husseinzahid on November 1, 2000 5:20:17 am
I won`t care much. I think that her past is History. And now she is with me and that all it matters.
#120 Posted by Cheema on November 1, 2000 2:00:07 am
It was a good article. Besides religion, I think there is a big reason in abstaining from premarital and extramarital sex, and that is once confidence of a spouse is destroyed stability of family life is also destroyed. In a sexually promiscuous society divorce rate is high, and the whole environment of parental love and respect for elders is missing.
There have been numerous examples of feminists protesting against exploitation of marriage and living unmarried (yet having boy friends) all their life, in the end most complain of a sense of unfulfilment in life. Sex isn`t everything. Children and joys of family life are the reasons for living in the first place. And a stable family life ensures these.
Sexual restraint teaches a lot of things, and is not necessarily advocated by religion, Stoics practiced it although they were non believers, socialist philosophers also criticize free sex society and commercialization of woman.
There have been numerous examples of feminists protesting against exploitation of marriage and living unmarried (yet having boy friends) all their life, in the end most complain of a sense of unfulfilment in life. Sex isn`t everything. Children and joys of family life are the reasons for living in the first place. And a stable family life ensures these.
Sexual restraint teaches a lot of things, and is not necessarily advocated by religion, Stoics practiced it although they were non believers, socialist philosophers also criticize free sex society and commercialization of woman.
#119 Posted by Asim on November 1, 2000 2:00:07 am
``i am not worried how good others are, because i am so confeident in my abilities, that i am sure i can make it happen for whomever i`m with.``Yaar,
Dear Fellow,
You are not the only one living in a fool`s paradise. Apparently all men think and solemnly believe in this ``falsehood``, regardless of colour, creed, class. You have to agree some of them might be playing with the trutj.
Who am I? I am just your average, horny, devil`s advocate.
Asim :)
Dear Fellow,
You are not the only one living in a fool`s paradise. Apparently all men think and solemnly believe in this ``falsehood``, regardless of colour, creed, class. You have to agree some of them might be playing with the trutj.
Who am I? I am just your average, horny, devil`s advocate.
Asim :)
#117 Posted by ramyssysix on October 31, 2000 11:35:05 am
My name is Muhammad Waqar Saleem and I am an Electrical Engineer from Pakistan.
Well, the answer to the question that you have asked depends upon the approach that one has towards his life,the rules or the code that one follows.
If you talk about me or other guys of my sort, then the answer is that ``if it is the case with the bride then it really is a serious problem``. Infact, I would call it dishonesty and a moral weakness on the bride`s part.
The rules that I follow for living, tell me a strict way to deal with the problem and I certainly will deal with it that way. I am talking about my religion, Islam, that always has a natural and a most sensible way of approaching a problem.
Well, the answer to the question that you have asked depends upon the approach that one has towards his life,the rules or the code that one follows.
If you talk about me or other guys of my sort, then the answer is that ``if it is the case with the bride then it really is a serious problem``. Infact, I would call it dishonesty and a moral weakness on the bride`s part.
The rules that I follow for living, tell me a strict way to deal with the problem and I certainly will deal with it that way. I am talking about my religion, Islam, that always has a natural and a most sensible way of approaching a problem.
#116 Posted by ali5000 on October 31, 2000 11:35:05 am
the problem with losing your virginity is simple,
sex is like pringles, once you pop you can`t stop!!
krashid,
i am not worried how good others are, because i am so confeident in my abilities, that i am sure i can make it happen for whomever i`m with.
sex is like pringles, once you pop you can`t stop!!
krashid,
i am not worried how good others are, because i am so confeident in my abilities, that i am sure i can make it happen for whomever i`m with.
#115 Posted by qkakakhel on October 31, 2000 11:35:05 am
I think you get married on one date...and from that date on I will be faithfull to my wife and expect her to be so. You dont get married with ``retrospective effect``, its a contract drawn on a particular date and effective from that date. Because if you carry such old emotional baggage around in you marriage than I think your life would be hell, even from that date you would have so many worries that worring about past seems futile to me.
But I dont recomend pre-marital sex...as even its not found out, you will still feel guilty and comparisions comes in too...which is practically not good...what if you experiance was great and shes/hes a great lover and your spouse if lousy... your in for life-time regret.
But I dont recomend pre-marital sex...as even its not found out, you will still feel guilty and comparisions comes in too...which is practically not good...what if you experiance was great and shes/hes a great lover and your spouse if lousy... your in for life-time regret.
#114 Posted by Urstruly on October 29, 2000 7:58:31 pm
Abysmil
Now that you have seen that most of the people here have expressed their future intentions with a ``bulund khoodi``; may I suggest that you should now pose this question to the people who have already been through the ``pillow-talk`` with their spouses and find out where their ``Khoodi`` is at.
Now that you have seen that most of the people here have expressed their future intentions with a ``bulund khoodi``; may I suggest that you should now pose this question to the people who have already been through the ``pillow-talk`` with their spouses and find out where their ``Khoodi`` is at.
#113 Posted by OMAR1974 on October 29, 2000 10:03:50 am
She`s a man-eater
(From The Friday Times)
I have a maid whose husband, an old man in his sixties, died of a heart attack when they were ``in bed``. That must be terrible. Imagine trying to come to grips with the fact that it was your enthusiasm that killed someone. If that`s not enough to inhibit you for the rest of your life, I don`t know what is. But inhibitions? No. We have none here. She scoffs at another maid whose husband beats her up, saying the latter deserves it for not ``satisfying`` him. After all, her own husband died from a case of over-satisfaction.
Much as this colourful character shocks me, she pales in comparison to some of the other beauties that I have had. I mean, at least she was married to the guy. I can never forget Aasia, a young maid of mine who was caught in the act with ``her brother``, who was visiting for the weekend; or Bano, my mother`s toothless old maid who insisted on sharing her charpai with a young relative whom my father had nicknamed ``the conservative nephew``.
What I remember most is their wide-eyed amazement when confronted: what`s the big deal anyway? There was this young girl in my mother`s house who was found draped all over the carpenter by some painters in the house. When the painters complained about the besharmi, behayai, and all sorts of other words beginning with `` be``, my mother called the maid, hoping to shame her into mending her ways. When asked what she had been doing with the carpenter, the maid calmly replied, `` Ji mein uss ki godi main baithi hooi thi``. (I was sitting in his lap). My mother could only come up with an embarrassed, ``Don`t do it again``. Needless to say, the liaisons with the carpenter did not end. But what I have wondered about ever since is, in situations like these, how can you ever find the right thing to say? It`s all very well to rave and rant about morality, abstinence and the virtues of monogamy, but as far as these people are concerned, they really don`t know what the fuss is all about. So who are the real freaks here? Them or us? Is it they who are shameless or us who are prudish and hypocritical?
To be honest, when I moved back three years ago to the Land of the Pure, all moralistic and patriotic, I had not given much thought to the sex lives of servants, not that I had wanted to, either. But the simple reality of trying to run a house in Pakistan makes you realise there are only two options: the first is to turn a blind eye to what happens and the second is to try and ensure that the promiscuity does not exceed all levels of decency. Once you`ve tried the second option for a few months - like I did - you also realise that only the first option is available in reality.
When we first set up shop in Lahore, we hired Nasreen, the former friend of the carpenter who had since repented her sins and married the gardener`s brother. Our thinking was that the newly married couple would keep each other occupied. Wrong. After Nasreen had given birth to their first child, her husband decided that he wasn`t quite getting his manly dues. Being the understanding little wife that she was, Nasreen assisted him in a threesome with Shagufta, another young maid who eventually accused them of coercing her into it. We had no choice but to turn the young couple out. A week later, Shagufta was overheard telling someone that she missed Nasreen`s husband. Fickle? Naw! After all a woman has a right to change her mind, right?!
Next in line was another maid whose entire family swore she was so `` sharif`` it was only a matter of time before she became a saint. One month later, the chowkidar found the roof of her quarter littered with mithas. Further investigation revealed that the mithas came from the neighbours` houseboy who had been slinging fruit at her window to catch her attention. I sent my husband over to complain to the neighbours, only to learn that the flying fruit was apparently a standard signal for the neighbourhood boys and that there had been any number of visitors to our maid`s quarter.
By now, it was time for some serious introspection. Surely I was doing something wrong - why else would I be attracting all the nymphos of the Punjab? Had I been too lenient, too Westernised in my approach? Was it time for the danda method yet?
Apparently not. I found out that just about everyone around me had been faced with similar situations. The story that won hands down though, was of a friend`s grandmother, a dignified sari-clad lady, who ventured into the servants` quarters one night, looking for the chowkidar. After repeated calls, she opened the door of his room, only to be greeted with the entertaining sight of her butt-naked Pathan trying to push three hijras out of the roshan daan! Now tell me that`s not kinky.
Still, the consensus here is that no matter how shocked we may get at some of our employees` extra-curricular activities, the blind eye method operates best, at least until the problems become too severe to ignore. After all, most of us know nothing about these people who work in our homes. Their lives have always been about survival, about doing what it takes and getting their pleasures while they can. And our comfortable platitudes make no more sense to them than Marie Antoinette`s remarks did to the Paris mob. If they resent us for shoving our upper-class moralities down their throats, it`s for good reason. Many of our values are but frivolous luxuries. The working class simply do not have the stability and certainty that we take for granted. When it comes to entertainment, we have a slightly more varied palette of options than they do. So who are we to take away one of their primary sources of enjoyment?
And who am I kidding anyway? For short of chaining your household help, you have no chance of controlling ``what comes naturally``. Recently a family friend hired a grotesque, middle-aged, Quasimodo look-alike woman as a cook in the hope that she wouldn`t attract the wrong kind of attention. She has a one-armed lover down the street already.
(From The Friday Times)
I have a maid whose husband, an old man in his sixties, died of a heart attack when they were ``in bed``. That must be terrible. Imagine trying to come to grips with the fact that it was your enthusiasm that killed someone. If that`s not enough to inhibit you for the rest of your life, I don`t know what is. But inhibitions? No. We have none here. She scoffs at another maid whose husband beats her up, saying the latter deserves it for not ``satisfying`` him. After all, her own husband died from a case of over-satisfaction.
Much as this colourful character shocks me, she pales in comparison to some of the other beauties that I have had. I mean, at least she was married to the guy. I can never forget Aasia, a young maid of mine who was caught in the act with ``her brother``, who was visiting for the weekend; or Bano, my mother`s toothless old maid who insisted on sharing her charpai with a young relative whom my father had nicknamed ``the conservative nephew``.
What I remember most is their wide-eyed amazement when confronted: what`s the big deal anyway? There was this young girl in my mother`s house who was found draped all over the carpenter by some painters in the house. When the painters complained about the besharmi, behayai, and all sorts of other words beginning with `` be``, my mother called the maid, hoping to shame her into mending her ways. When asked what she had been doing with the carpenter, the maid calmly replied, `` Ji mein uss ki godi main baithi hooi thi``. (I was sitting in his lap). My mother could only come up with an embarrassed, ``Don`t do it again``. Needless to say, the liaisons with the carpenter did not end. But what I have wondered about ever since is, in situations like these, how can you ever find the right thing to say? It`s all very well to rave and rant about morality, abstinence and the virtues of monogamy, but as far as these people are concerned, they really don`t know what the fuss is all about. So who are the real freaks here? Them or us? Is it they who are shameless or us who are prudish and hypocritical?
To be honest, when I moved back three years ago to the Land of the Pure, all moralistic and patriotic, I had not given much thought to the sex lives of servants, not that I had wanted to, either. But the simple reality of trying to run a house in Pakistan makes you realise there are only two options: the first is to turn a blind eye to what happens and the second is to try and ensure that the promiscuity does not exceed all levels of decency. Once you`ve tried the second option for a few months - like I did - you also realise that only the first option is available in reality.
When we first set up shop in Lahore, we hired Nasreen, the former friend of the carpenter who had since repented her sins and married the gardener`s brother. Our thinking was that the newly married couple would keep each other occupied. Wrong. After Nasreen had given birth to their first child, her husband decided that he wasn`t quite getting his manly dues. Being the understanding little wife that she was, Nasreen assisted him in a threesome with Shagufta, another young maid who eventually accused them of coercing her into it. We had no choice but to turn the young couple out. A week later, Shagufta was overheard telling someone that she missed Nasreen`s husband. Fickle? Naw! After all a woman has a right to change her mind, right?!
Next in line was another maid whose entire family swore she was so `` sharif`` it was only a matter of time before she became a saint. One month later, the chowkidar found the roof of her quarter littered with mithas. Further investigation revealed that the mithas came from the neighbours` houseboy who had been slinging fruit at her window to catch her attention. I sent my husband over to complain to the neighbours, only to learn that the flying fruit was apparently a standard signal for the neighbourhood boys and that there had been any number of visitors to our maid`s quarter.
By now, it was time for some serious introspection. Surely I was doing something wrong - why else would I be attracting all the nymphos of the Punjab? Had I been too lenient, too Westernised in my approach? Was it time for the danda method yet?
Apparently not. I found out that just about everyone around me had been faced with similar situations. The story that won hands down though, was of a friend`s grandmother, a dignified sari-clad lady, who ventured into the servants` quarters one night, looking for the chowkidar. After repeated calls, she opened the door of his room, only to be greeted with the entertaining sight of her butt-naked Pathan trying to push three hijras out of the roshan daan! Now tell me that`s not kinky.
Still, the consensus here is that no matter how shocked we may get at some of our employees` extra-curricular activities, the blind eye method operates best, at least until the problems become too severe to ignore. After all, most of us know nothing about these people who work in our homes. Their lives have always been about survival, about doing what it takes and getting their pleasures while they can. And our comfortable platitudes make no more sense to them than Marie Antoinette`s remarks did to the Paris mob. If they resent us for shoving our upper-class moralities down their throats, it`s for good reason. Many of our values are but frivolous luxuries. The working class simply do not have the stability and certainty that we take for granted. When it comes to entertainment, we have a slightly more varied palette of options than they do. So who are we to take away one of their primary sources of enjoyment?
And who am I kidding anyway? For short of chaining your household help, you have no chance of controlling ``what comes naturally``. Recently a family friend hired a grotesque, middle-aged, Quasimodo look-alike woman as a cook in the hope that she wouldn`t attract the wrong kind of attention. She has a one-armed lover down the street already.
#112 Posted by SR on October 29, 2000 12:59:44 am
Virginity is like a bubble, one prick and its gone. This whole issue is utter rubbish.
The CHOWK is obviously a very middle class society because no one else cares about such a non-issue. In today`s real Pakistan virginity is largely a moot point. ONLY the tiny middle class espouses such anachronistic values. The rich don`t need them and the poor can`t afford them.
Among the rural people and among the urban poor pre and extra marital sex is far more common than one would think. Among the `virtuous` middle classes, on the other hand, extra-marital sex is at epidemic proportions as that is when the poor young women get some modicum of freedom.
What are we doing to discuss next, lota vs. toilet paper? How losing the lota habit is a Western danger we need protect our `paak` youngsters from lest they fall victim to the `paleet` method of wiping their smeared posteriors with toilet paper?
Tauba tauba, aztaghfaar!
...SR
The CHOWK is obviously a very middle class society because no one else cares about such a non-issue. In today`s real Pakistan virginity is largely a moot point. ONLY the tiny middle class espouses such anachronistic values. The rich don`t need them and the poor can`t afford them.
Among the rural people and among the urban poor pre and extra marital sex is far more common than one would think. Among the `virtuous` middle classes, on the other hand, extra-marital sex is at epidemic proportions as that is when the poor young women get some modicum of freedom.
What are we doing to discuss next, lota vs. toilet paper? How losing the lota habit is a Western danger we need protect our `paak` youngsters from lest they fall victim to the `paleet` method of wiping their smeared posteriors with toilet paper?
Tauba tauba, aztaghfaar!
...SR
#111 Posted by Jaan on October 28, 2000 9:04:24 pm
It would definitely loose my confidance on her because it means she had loved anybody else before and she got married to me in another kind of circumstances that forced her to marry me. However, I believe in ``Second to none.
What you wnat to say or what is your thinking please let me know because I want to listen all.
Best regards:
What you wnat to say or what is your thinking please let me know because I want to listen all.
Best regards:
#110 Posted by krashid on October 28, 2000 2:18:04 am
Roger 99
What is your age honey.
Will see you after your marriage.
This 5 year old babbling of yours will stop.
What is your age honey.
Will see you after your marriage.
This 5 year old babbling of yours will stop.
#109 Posted by krashid on October 28, 2000 2:18:04 am
Ali 5000!
Or may be ``Chohara`` (date), if her experience was great in other`s bed.:-)
Or may be ``Chohara`` (date), if her experience was great in other`s bed.:-)
#108 Posted by ali5000 on October 27, 2000 10:47:56 pm
if my new wife tells me that she is not a virgin, i would be glad, because than she can truly appreciate my greatness in bed, because she has something to compare it to!!
#107 Posted by rsaxena on October 27, 2000 5:10:34 pm
Most of the adult South Asian virgins living overseas are so not by choice (even though they will claim otherwise). All this hoohaa is utter nonsense. Follow your biological needs and urges, keep it safe, and enjoy. End the bitterness against human needs and behavior. If you can`t, go seek help.
#106 Posted by TheOracle on October 27, 2000 1:42:40 pm
Virginity is a bad word as far as I am concerned. Growing up full of harmones in India is a bug pain in the wrong places. Mine was especially compounded by the fact that when I was looking out to err.. to procreate without creating things were a lot duller than the scene now. The past is not too far back - am now in early 30s now.
Zahra hit it on the head when she says ``no woman who isnt married and south asian will confess that openly to not being a virgin. ``
There was such a premium on virginity, that I couldn`t get in anywhere. Not that there were no girls, I fortunately got close to a few nice ones. In most cases the deal was we can go so far but no further...unless there is a commitment! How can a person of honor give a commitment when the future is not clear?? Or the intentions are NOT to give commitments?? It has been a frustrating life. Bless their souls I liked my friends/girlfriends but my life would have been so much more fulfilling if not for Desi fixation on virginity. So, I cast my vote against virginity!
Coming to Bismil`s question, here are some tips from someone who has been there, done that -
For those about to get married, men or women I don`t think relating about your past experience on your wedding night is a very bright thing to do. If you must talk about it, do it before the wedding. If it didn`t come up till the wedding, preferably keep it to yourself for ever after.
And if you are a male, you must be sensitive to the woman who trusted you by avoiding discussing her by name. In the desi context, rumors(or facts) can harm her a lot.
thanx
Zahra hit it on the head when she says ``no woman who isnt married and south asian will confess that openly to not being a virgin. ``
There was such a premium on virginity, that I couldn`t get in anywhere. Not that there were no girls, I fortunately got close to a few nice ones. In most cases the deal was we can go so far but no further...unless there is a commitment! How can a person of honor give a commitment when the future is not clear?? Or the intentions are NOT to give commitments?? It has been a frustrating life. Bless their souls I liked my friends/girlfriends but my life would have been so much more fulfilling if not for Desi fixation on virginity. So, I cast my vote against virginity!
Coming to Bismil`s question, here are some tips from someone who has been there, done that -
For those about to get married, men or women I don`t think relating about your past experience on your wedding night is a very bright thing to do. If you must talk about it, do it before the wedding. If it didn`t come up till the wedding, preferably keep it to yourself for ever after.
And if you are a male, you must be sensitive to the woman who trusted you by avoiding discussing her by name. In the desi context, rumors(or facts) can harm her a lot.
thanx
#105 Posted by roger99 on October 27, 2000 10:22:18 am
In which age are you living, honey?
I certainly won`t kick my bride out of my room if I discover on the wedding night that she`s not a virgin. She had a right to spend her life the way she wanted. Well that`s how I feel? And I must add that I`m still a virgin.
I certainly won`t kick my bride out of my room if I discover on the wedding night that she`s not a virgin. She had a right to spend her life the way she wanted. Well that`s how I feel? And I must add that I`m still a virgin.
#104 Posted by krashid on October 27, 2000 10:22:18 am
dl#102
I was definitely not referring to you, but question posed in this article.
In arranged marriage, I think discovery needs time and not on the wedding night.
Second, I am not fond of the institution of marriage. It is only a feather in cap for some men or women. (Somebody likes me so much as to marry). It can be done without marriage. Majority of marriage in my State is common law marriage, meaning people living together for many years without proper marriage. They put it on paper, if need arise. Like insurance for spouse etc. I take it as normal, as long as there is commitment to children.
Basically institution of marriage is related to children. Children need both parents. All the studies suggest positive aspect of both parent children vs single parent children. And this is also my observation. Why the sacredness of marriage?. Basically why I should bring up other persons child? And probably that is the reason for demand of fidelity on the part of female by males.
As long as women and men understand that children are the responsibility of both parents and the primary purpose of marriage, I think lot of misunderstanding regarding women`s Lib (ido) etc will be smashed.
Women should be LIBERATED:-) or be married, but not both.
Same goes for man. But since child does not come out of man`s womb, probably he is more strict regarding fidelity of wife.:-)
I was definitely not referring to you, but question posed in this article.
In arranged marriage, I think discovery needs time and not on the wedding night.
Second, I am not fond of the institution of marriage. It is only a feather in cap for some men or women. (Somebody likes me so much as to marry). It can be done without marriage. Majority of marriage in my State is common law marriage, meaning people living together for many years without proper marriage. They put it on paper, if need arise. Like insurance for spouse etc. I take it as normal, as long as there is commitment to children.
Basically institution of marriage is related to children. Children need both parents. All the studies suggest positive aspect of both parent children vs single parent children. And this is also my observation. Why the sacredness of marriage?. Basically why I should bring up other persons child? And probably that is the reason for demand of fidelity on the part of female by males.
As long as women and men understand that children are the responsibility of both parents and the primary purpose of marriage, I think lot of misunderstanding regarding women`s Lib (ido) etc will be smashed.
Women should be LIBERATED:-) or be married, but not both.
Same goes for man. But since child does not come out of man`s womb, probably he is more strict regarding fidelity of wife.:-)
#103 Posted by scout on October 26, 2000 6:51:38 pm
zehra 97,
What`s wrong with a ``blushing`` groom?
A very good friend of mine (Caucasian) decided to be a virgin till his wedding night, and he`s the most wonderful guy, very open too.
I don`t see anything wrong with guys ``saving`` themselves for marriage. More power to them.
What`s wrong with a ``blushing`` groom?
A very good friend of mine (Caucasian) decided to be a virgin till his wedding night, and he`s the most wonderful guy, very open too.
I don`t see anything wrong with guys ``saving`` themselves for marriage. More power to them.
#102 Posted by scout on October 26, 2000 6:51:38 pm
Omar #99,
Holy moly! Either you`re a sex ed. teacher or you`ve been reading the Redbook too much.
DAMN!
Holy moly! Either you`re a sex ed. teacher or you`ve been reading the Redbook too much.
DAMN!
#101 Posted by Zehra on October 26, 2000 2:55:26 pm
cheez/sherry.
that was so painful to read. im usually the first to let spelling mistakes and uncapitalized letters and missing puncuation and stuff go (be kicked out) in the benign spirit of anti-establishment movments but good god! youve taken it to different heights...i could, like, not follow. and youve moved me enough to want to comment on your horrible command of the written word. do you just not know how to write or is that your Istyle? i know its inappropriate to comment on this (on this board and in general) but i am just amazed. i literally stumbled through that. that too barely.
that was so painful to read. im usually the first to let spelling mistakes and uncapitalized letters and missing puncuation and stuff go (be kicked out) in the benign spirit of anti-establishment movments but good god! youve taken it to different heights...i could, like, not follow. and youve moved me enough to want to comment on your horrible command of the written word. do you just not know how to write or is that your Istyle? i know its inappropriate to comment on this (on this board and in general) but i am just amazed. i literally stumbled through that. that too barely.
#99 Posted by dL on October 26, 2000 11:01:42 am
krashid
Nobody is allowed to do anything. They just do it anyway. Personally, aside from seriously precocious brats I haven`t come across pompous 5-year olds (I`m pretending to miss the sarcasm - in case you miss it - unless of course I misunderstood completely) ... out of the mouths of babes or hadn`t you heard. Maybe if more 5 year olds began to discuss God we`d be able to escape the boringly insular discussions of the 50 year olds.
Besides my question was not whether it makes sense to start another `career` as you put it by airing the past - but the implications of your statement - sex outside of marriage = sexual profligacy for want of a better word. ... anyway, i think the `blushing or otherwise` wife would be a nut to tell her husband on her wedding nite ... assuming the marriage was arranged it should be left alone until or unless both subsequently develop a relationship that allows them to talk about their respective escapades (although whats good for the gander is not always good for the goose as most have discovered to their cost) ... if its not arranged well then - if you haven`t talked about it yet - er better not !
cheers
dL
Nobody is allowed to do anything. They just do it anyway. Personally, aside from seriously precocious brats I haven`t come across pompous 5-year olds (I`m pretending to miss the sarcasm - in case you miss it - unless of course I misunderstood completely) ... out of the mouths of babes or hadn`t you heard. Maybe if more 5 year olds began to discuss God we`d be able to escape the boringly insular discussions of the 50 year olds.
Besides my question was not whether it makes sense to start another `career` as you put it by airing the past - but the implications of your statement - sex outside of marriage = sexual profligacy for want of a better word. ... anyway, i think the `blushing or otherwise` wife would be a nut to tell her husband on her wedding nite ... assuming the marriage was arranged it should be left alone until or unless both subsequently develop a relationship that allows them to talk about their respective escapades (although whats good for the gander is not always good for the goose as most have discovered to their cost) ... if its not arranged well then - if you haven`t talked about it yet - er better not !
cheers
dL
#98 Posted by OMAR1974 on October 26, 2000 11:01:42 am
Arranged Marriage Horror Story
Bride & Groom (both of desi origin) lived in Canada in different provinces, both from well settled families, introduced, and married with a sumptous wedding reception by all accounts. Bride home in 3 days on the pretext of her close relatives sudden death.
Never goes back. Gossip has it that Bridegroom
had his Canadian gf living in his house all along. Refused bride`s request to move to another city.
Anyone got any others to contribute?
Bride & Groom (both of desi origin) lived in Canada in different provinces, both from well settled families, introduced, and married with a sumptous wedding reception by all accounts. Bride home in 3 days on the pretext of her close relatives sudden death.
Never goes back. Gossip has it that Bridegroom
had his Canadian gf living in his house all along. Refused bride`s request to move to another city.
Anyone got any others to contribute?
#97 Posted by Manvendra on October 26, 2000 11:01:42 am
I would say `` Honey that was your past. Let us talk about living OUR future lives together happily. It is all about being happy. Petty things dont matter.``
Cheers,
Mann
Cheers,
Mann
#96 Posted by OMAR1974 on October 26, 2000 11:01:42 am
Well, joining in late, but read all the replies.
I have to agree with the majority that if you`ve left that question till the wedding night or the next morning, you`ve left it a bit too late. I think relationships should be based on HONESTY. If 1 party starts lying or concealing the truth, its a no-go from the start. If you can`t have honesty with your spouse, your relationship is not worth much in much opinion.
If this happened to me (being a single guy), i might likely decide to spend the rest of the night on the couch by myself, if the person had been lying to me all along before when asked straight forward questions, and only came clean at that stage. Only because i can`t stand dishonesty.
Virginity is overrated. If people are careful (use diaphrams, condoms, HIV tests etc, and unfailingly the pill) the bad conseqences can be minimalized (although the pill does mean weight gain for women). Men peak sexually at age 18, it is absolutely ridiculous to expect them to waste the best (sexually) years of their lives jerking off till they are financially independent etc. So why have a double standard for women.
Frankly, that hymen thinge is a pain in the vagina. Its overrated as well. It can be quite painful and uncomfortable the first time around to deal with for young ladies, and who in their right minds thinks dealing with their bleeding, and the pain of your female partner is FUN for a man? It most certainly is NOT. Takes a while till sex becomes fun. Additionally, my female friends strongly agree that most Paki men need to be, uh, `broken in` before they get married, `to be of any use`. As a group they continue to have all kinds of hangups, `not teddibly into cunnilingus` or if willing, any good at it either. But most guys selfishly want BJs without reciprocity.
Women should make a rule and enforce it. If the Guy has an Ej, She MUST INSIST on the same 1:1 exchange ratio for orgasms, married or otherwise. His problem, however he solves it. Otherwise, its the couch (or worse) for you mister. :)
Love a cold, heartless mistress. Being nice/sweet just don`t get you anywhere in life.
Omar Mirza
I have to agree with the majority that if you`ve left that question till the wedding night or the next morning, you`ve left it a bit too late. I think relationships should be based on HONESTY. If 1 party starts lying or concealing the truth, its a no-go from the start. If you can`t have honesty with your spouse, your relationship is not worth much in much opinion.
If this happened to me (being a single guy), i might likely decide to spend the rest of the night on the couch by myself, if the person had been lying to me all along before when asked straight forward questions, and only came clean at that stage. Only because i can`t stand dishonesty.
Virginity is overrated. If people are careful (use diaphrams, condoms, HIV tests etc, and unfailingly the pill) the bad conseqences can be minimalized (although the pill does mean weight gain for women). Men peak sexually at age 18, it is absolutely ridiculous to expect them to waste the best (sexually) years of their lives jerking off till they are financially independent etc. So why have a double standard for women.
Frankly, that hymen thinge is a pain in the vagina. Its overrated as well. It can be quite painful and uncomfortable the first time around to deal with for young ladies, and who in their right minds thinks dealing with their bleeding, and the pain of your female partner is FUN for a man? It most certainly is NOT. Takes a while till sex becomes fun. Additionally, my female friends strongly agree that most Paki men need to be, uh, `broken in` before they get married, `to be of any use`. As a group they continue to have all kinds of hangups, `not teddibly into cunnilingus` or if willing, any good at it either. But most guys selfishly want BJs without reciprocity.
Women should make a rule and enforce it. If the Guy has an Ej, She MUST INSIST on the same 1:1 exchange ratio for orgasms, married or otherwise. His problem, however he solves it. Otherwise, its the couch (or worse) for you mister. :)
Love a cold, heartless mistress. Being nice/sweet just don`t get you anywhere in life.
Omar Mirza
#95 Posted by Urstruly on October 26, 2000 8:38:04 am
RE: Scout #96
Oh! you broke me down. But let me assure you that I was not sleeping with my husband`s best friend. Happy? :)
Oh! you broke me down. But let me assure you that I was not sleeping with my husband`s best friend. Happy? :)
#94 Posted by Zehra on October 26, 2000 1:16:31 am
abysmal..what fantasy world are you living in
yaar?
frankly, i am surprised when a guy tells me he
is a virgin. id be disturbed if my husband said
that to me...
and since the question is reversed i am more
open to it and dude, he shoulda told me a
helluva lot longer than the night we get
married.
id divorce him. there can be nothing worse
than having a blushing man on your
hands...blushing brides, yes i can see that as
traditionally charming, but a blushing
groom...good god...thats a freak show.
im being flippant ofcourse...one needs to
clarify for those who dont get it and attack me
for ....i dont know what you could attack me for
but chowkwalas and their sensitivities will get
to be legendary. divorce is too simple....id go
for the guilluotine.
:)
oh..one other thing..i agree with slink and
jawahara on your article...
i do however, like the issue that arose from
this and most people discussed the question
you asked about instead of focusing on what
youve written...lucky you. youve escaped
unhazed this time...
rizvi
yaar?
frankly, i am surprised when a guy tells me he
is a virgin. id be disturbed if my husband said
that to me...
and since the question is reversed i am more
open to it and dude, he shoulda told me a
helluva lot longer than the night we get
married.
id divorce him. there can be nothing worse
than having a blushing man on your
hands...blushing brides, yes i can see that as
traditionally charming, but a blushing
groom...good god...thats a freak show.
im being flippant ofcourse...one needs to
clarify for those who dont get it and attack me
for ....i dont know what you could attack me for
but chowkwalas and their sensitivities will get
to be legendary. divorce is too simple....id go
for the guilluotine.
:)
oh..one other thing..i agree with slink and
jawahara on your article...
i do however, like the issue that arose from
this and most people discussed the question
you asked about instead of focusing on what
youve written...lucky you. youve escaped
unhazed this time...
rizvi
#93 Posted by scout on October 25, 2000 11:52:44 pm
urstruly,
Do you speak from experience? Did or did your wife (or girlfriend) not sleep with your best friend?
It`s time to lay down your defenses and lay your cards out on the table. How did you feel?
I am reminded of an old Pakistani flick called Saheli.
Do you speak from experience? Did or did your wife (or girlfriend) not sleep with your best friend?
It`s time to lay down your defenses and lay your cards out on the table. How did you feel?
I am reminded of an old Pakistani flick called Saheli.
#92 Posted by krashid on October 25, 2000 11:52:44 pm
dl#93
The question is why do you want to start a new career by telling your groom on wedding night?
I don`t think groom will be happy.
Moreover, somethings are presupposed and any deviation from it creates frustration.
Now what will be appropriate time for discovery, is upto the couple and their understanding with each other over time.
I don`t know why 5 years old mind are allowed to discuss God in a pompous manner?
The question is why do you want to start a new career by telling your groom on wedding night?
I don`t think groom will be happy.
Moreover, somethings are presupposed and any deviation from it creates frustration.
Now what will be appropriate time for discovery, is upto the couple and their understanding with each other over time.
I don`t know why 5 years old mind are allowed to discuss God in a pompous manner?
#90 Posted by Urstruly on October 25, 2000 9:08:11 pm
RE: Abysmal #91
If I were that bride then I would win my hubby`s heart by forgiving him but I would never tell him that I also used to sleep with his best friend.
If I were that bride then I would win my hubby`s heart by forgiving him but I would never tell him that I also used to sleep with his best friend.
#89 Posted by abysmal on October 25, 2000 7:15:14 pm
If anyone`s still interested I`d like to pose the following question to the ladies:
If your ``blushing`` groom confessed he wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night would you?
a) Spit on his face and go home to momma.
b) Feel insecure and ask lots of questions
about ``her,`` or ``them.``
c) Tell him to wait, and go have sex with someone
so that you both are even.
d) Cry
e) Confess your own sins
f) Feel distrustful and wonder if he has Herpes.
g) Pull out a gun and kill him
h) Pull out a gun and kill yourself
If your ``blushing`` groom confessed he wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night would you?
a) Spit on his face and go home to momma.
b) Feel insecure and ask lots of questions
about ``her,`` or ``them.``
c) Tell him to wait, and go have sex with someone
so that you both are even.
d) Cry
e) Confess your own sins
f) Feel distrustful and wonder if he has Herpes.
g) Pull out a gun and kill him
h) Pull out a gun and kill yourself
#88 Posted by Urstruly on October 25, 2000 4:39:41 pm
Could you guys please not use the phrase ``Blushing Bride``. Why would a bride be blushing if she had already `been there, done that`-I think the proper phrase should be ``blushing groom`` (in this case)?
Another thing that is really annoying is that the reference in this question, that author asked, is only being made to females (bride) only. Males should be subject to the same rigorous standards.
Another thing that is really annoying is that the reference in this question, that author asked, is only being made to females (bride) only. Males should be subject to the same rigorous standards.
#87 Posted by hamza10 on October 25, 2000 2:22:58 pm
the thing about the past, is that there isn`t a damn thing that you can do about it. so as a guy, if mu blushing new bride told me that she wasn`t a virgin i really really hope that i would act in a mature manner, and explain to her that it doesn`t really matter, because her past isn`t what i`m concerned with, but rather the present and the future..
#86 Posted by dL on October 25, 2000 12:30:59 pm
re#84: krashid
Gross generalizations. you`re not seriously suggesting that every woman who has indulged in premarital sex is a `slut` are you ? Exactly how do you define the word anyway ? More than one sexual partner equals ... ? Premarital sex equals ... ? Not living up to your expectations equals ... ?
cheers
dL
Gross generalizations. you`re not seriously suggesting that every woman who has indulged in premarital sex is a `slut` are you ? Exactly how do you define the word anyway ? More than one sexual partner equals ... ? Premarital sex equals ... ? Not living up to your expectations equals ... ?
cheers
dL
#85 Posted by peeping on October 25, 2000 12:30:59 pm
I have this simple rule to follow.
virgin for a virgin
non-virgin for a non-virgin.
If I am a non-virgin then i dont have any right to ask my bride to be a virgin but if am a virgin and get a non-virgin wife...i will have to forgive her provided she abstains from extra-marital in the future. Can`t send her back to home.
virgin for a virgin
non-virgin for a non-virgin.
If I am a non-virgin then i dont have any right to ask my bride to be a virgin but if am a virgin and get a non-virgin wife...i will have to forgive her provided she abstains from extra-marital in the future. Can`t send her back to home.
#84 Posted by aziz786 on October 24, 2000 9:33:39 pm
What would you do if your blushing bride revealed on your wedding
night that she was actually a man?
Yeh tay lainay kay dainay parh gayey
night that she was actually a man?
Yeh tay lainay kay dainay parh gayey
#83 Posted by fairdinkum on October 24, 2000 9:19:01 am
Bina #83
``What would you do if your blushing bride revealed on your wedding night that she was actually a man?``
LOL!
or a she-male.... LOL :)
``What would you do if your blushing bride revealed on your wedding night that she was actually a man?``
LOL!
or a she-male.... LOL :)
#82 Posted by krashid on October 23, 2000 3:48:08 am
A. Bismil!
What an absurd question.
You are talking of arranged marriage in our culture. What criteria do you want to apply?
In Western culture these things are known beforehand and virginity is a black spot on your personality.
If I know, I would like to know if you intend to continue your behaviour or enough is enough and now will stick to me.
Why would I marry you in arranged marriage knowing you are same as rest of so called western sluts. Or even why would I marry if there are lots of people like you in the street.
If it is a rebellion on your part, you are most welcome to sleep with me, but not in a marriage bond.
As far as Bina`s question. It is a valid one. The only problem is, can woman take a decision.
But it is probably true that in our culture neither a woman likes such man, nor a man likes such woman.
What an absurd question.
You are talking of arranged marriage in our culture. What criteria do you want to apply?
In Western culture these things are known beforehand and virginity is a black spot on your personality.
If I know, I would like to know if you intend to continue your behaviour or enough is enough and now will stick to me.
Why would I marry you in arranged marriage knowing you are same as rest of so called western sluts. Or even why would I marry if there are lots of people like you in the street.
If it is a rebellion on your part, you are most welcome to sleep with me, but not in a marriage bond.
As far as Bina`s question. It is a valid one. The only problem is, can woman take a decision.
But it is probably true that in our culture neither a woman likes such man, nor a man likes such woman.
#81 Posted by Bina on October 23, 2000 3:06:21 am
I would find the answers to this question a lot more interesting:
What would you do if your blushing bride revealed on your wedding night that she was actually a man?
What would you do if your blushing bride revealed on your wedding night that she was actually a man?
#80 Posted by Raj on October 22, 2000 9:08:46 pm
I`d like to ask the men reading: what would you do if your blushing bride told you she wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night?
Hi!
I just read your article and feel that there is no one easy answer to your question.Please do not generalise about men.You seem to hve forgotten that men are human beings and can feel differently towards a particular issue.
Best Regards,
Raj.
Hi!
I just read your article and feel that there is no one easy answer to your question.Please do not generalise about men.You seem to hve forgotten that men are human beings and can feel differently towards a particular issue.
Best Regards,
Raj.
#79 Posted by asif2000 on October 22, 2000 4:54:09 pm
what would you do if your blushing bride told you she wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night?
most of guys who have a problem with that themselves are not virgins. so why should it bother them?
PS virgins are not good lovers.
most of guys who have a problem with that themselves are not virgins. so why should it bother them?
PS virgins are not good lovers.
#78 Posted by Pigeon on October 22, 2000 1:26:07 am
A. Bismal
I really enjoyed reading your article the way you described your mother`s conversation.
You will not sleep with a man before marriage due to insecurity and emotional hang ups etc, and not because of the conviction that it is culturally
and religiously wrong. Am i right?
Ans. to your Q. Let God be her Judge and not me.
If my good spirit dominates the devil one, i will
treat her nice, and be a better person. If i make
God`s creation happy, i believe God be happy with
me.
Regards,
Pigeon
I really enjoyed reading your article the way you described your mother`s conversation.
You will not sleep with a man before marriage due to insecurity and emotional hang ups etc, and not because of the conviction that it is culturally
and religiously wrong. Am i right?
Ans. to your Q. Let God be her Judge and not me.
If my good spirit dominates the devil one, i will
treat her nice, and be a better person. If i make
God`s creation happy, i believe God be happy with
me.
Regards,
Pigeon
#77 Posted by parmid on October 22, 2000 1:26:07 am
I can only comment retrospectively as I have been married for 10+ years. It would not matter. After 10 years of regular sex with my wife, there are more important things. Sex is still interesting but now it is no longer a top priority.
#76 Posted by ylh on October 20, 2000 3:55:39 pm
PakWolf
Welcome to Chowk...
I have a lot of friends/acquaintances from LCAS...
maybe you know them... Saif,Yusuf,Fahad Siddiqui etc ?
Yasser
Welcome to Chowk...
I have a lot of friends/acquaintances from LCAS...
maybe you know them... Saif,Yusuf,Fahad Siddiqui etc ?
Yasser
#75 Posted by pakwolf on October 20, 2000 1:11:40 pm
``What`s virginity it`s a major issue on a simple tissue`` this statement resonates in my mind as I sit here and read your article A.Bismil.
I heard this statement as a teenager growing up in lahore at a local college called L.C.A.S. and it was mentioned to me by a girl, I was surprised to hear this coming from a paki girl, but it was hilarious never the less, but the implications of this statment are not.
Virginity,honor, shame are all connected together
in web so powerful that, very few dare to break out of it, but as virginity on decline in an Islamic Pakistan and sexual experimentation on the rise, I am a bit skeptical how many of the goody two shoe girls haven`t done the been there done it routine, this might seem a bit harsh to some of the readers, but it`s true!
media has effected the morality of the young generation amazingly, soical values have changed to, plus women play a wider roe in the social strata of present day Pakistan.
I believe in female empowerment, it`s a good thing and I am not going to question, what ppl choose to do for personal sexual or non-sexual gratificaton.
I am not going going to play the religious card either, since I don`t consider my self to be a Islamic scholar neither do I impose Islam on others, religion is a private affair.
Coming back to the point though, the writer has asked what would the reader a male would do incase, he finds out on his wedding night that she is not the pristine virgin goddess that he aspired to marry, but somebody who has lost something to which our society put`s a lot of emphasis.
I can`t speak for other`s, but in my case, it all depends on a number of factors, we all make mistakes big, small etc.
Circumstances in which we commit such acts, and is there a certain degree of regret associated with it, I would have a problem if my wife has slept with the whole cricket team and she does it without thinking about the social consequnces then
offcourse, that`s the beginning of the end right there, but if she has had a random incident where she did it because she was madly in love with somebody and her love for this man took the better part of her judgment, and she regrets and agrees to be faithful with me than who am I to judge to her, because to reject her would be to brand her as a ``Bad Girl`` the social consquences of ditching a girl on her wedding night are horrific and I strognly believe no parent or woman should be put through it.
I will give her the benefit of the doubt and from that day on never repeat the incident, it would be like nightmare fogotten, and if all works out then live happily ever after.
After all, God is the final judge of all our acts, none of us could claim to be angels so why play God and give judgement on others, accept ppl with there imperfections, if they are worth it.
One final word, hymen can also break because vigours atheltic activity, like if you are runner or something, so just to assume it and think your wife is unpure without giving her a chance to explain herself would be so chauvinistic, I mean so many more men do it then woman and get away with it just cause they are ``MEN`` is so unfair and
based on double standards.
I am a first time interactor own CHOWK, I love reading the articles on it, I just had to write an answer for this one, I found it to be really thought provoking, I think most ppl can relate with it in one way or the other :)
I heard this statement as a teenager growing up in lahore at a local college called L.C.A.S. and it was mentioned to me by a girl, I was surprised to hear this coming from a paki girl, but it was hilarious never the less, but the implications of this statment are not.
Virginity,honor, shame are all connected together
in web so powerful that, very few dare to break out of it, but as virginity on decline in an Islamic Pakistan and sexual experimentation on the rise, I am a bit skeptical how many of the goody two shoe girls haven`t done the been there done it routine, this might seem a bit harsh to some of the readers, but it`s true!
media has effected the morality of the young generation amazingly, soical values have changed to, plus women play a wider roe in the social strata of present day Pakistan.
I believe in female empowerment, it`s a good thing and I am not going to question, what ppl choose to do for personal sexual or non-sexual gratificaton.
I am not going going to play the religious card either, since I don`t consider my self to be a Islamic scholar neither do I impose Islam on others, religion is a private affair.
Coming back to the point though, the writer has asked what would the reader a male would do incase, he finds out on his wedding night that she is not the pristine virgin goddess that he aspired to marry, but somebody who has lost something to which our society put`s a lot of emphasis.
I can`t speak for other`s, but in my case, it all depends on a number of factors, we all make mistakes big, small etc.
Circumstances in which we commit such acts, and is there a certain degree of regret associated with it, I would have a problem if my wife has slept with the whole cricket team and she does it without thinking about the social consequnces then
offcourse, that`s the beginning of the end right there, but if she has had a random incident where she did it because she was madly in love with somebody and her love for this man took the better part of her judgment, and she regrets and agrees to be faithful with me than who am I to judge to her, because to reject her would be to brand her as a ``Bad Girl`` the social consquences of ditching a girl on her wedding night are horrific and I strognly believe no parent or woman should be put through it.
I will give her the benefit of the doubt and from that day on never repeat the incident, it would be like nightmare fogotten, and if all works out then live happily ever after.
After all, God is the final judge of all our acts, none of us could claim to be angels so why play God and give judgement on others, accept ppl with there imperfections, if they are worth it.
One final word, hymen can also break because vigours atheltic activity, like if you are runner or something, so just to assume it and think your wife is unpure without giving her a chance to explain herself would be so chauvinistic, I mean so many more men do it then woman and get away with it just cause they are ``MEN`` is so unfair and
based on double standards.
I am a first time interactor own CHOWK, I love reading the articles on it, I just had to write an answer for this one, I found it to be really thought provoking, I think most ppl can relate with it in one way or the other :)
#73 Posted by mansoorfaridi on October 19, 2000 7:42:01 pm
Zara,
Read Interaction #13 for your question.
Yours,
Mansoor Faridi.
Read Interaction #13 for your question.
Yours,
Mansoor Faridi.
#72 Posted by mansoorfaridi on October 19, 2000 7:42:01 pm
Zehra Rizvi ......
My comments were anything but hypocritical.
When I mentioned *pressure *, I was explaining the general perspective. When I mentioned *sin * I was explaining religious perspective; which is also pesonal.
I don`t see how people`s perception of an act could, in any way, be remotely associated with my perception of an issue!
Hence, outside the realms of *hypocritical *.
My comments were anything but hypocritical.
When I mentioned *pressure *, I was explaining the general perspective. When I mentioned *sin * I was explaining religious perspective; which is also pesonal.
I don`t see how people`s perception of an act could, in any way, be remotely associated with my perception of an issue!
Hence, outside the realms of *hypocritical *.
#71 Posted by eefrog on October 19, 2000 7:42:01 pm
Well thats a very ineteresting and straight forward question. I have noticed the increased number of very talented female writers here on chowk recently and its good to know that at least some part of our geneartion has definite (non-tabboo) views about human sexuality.
I wouldnt go in much detail at this time, but I cant resist writing a response to this article either so here is what I would do.
I would do NOTHING AT ALL. More power to her !!!Sexuality is private part of one`s life, just like a man has his way in our society I very truly believe that a woman does too, if she choses to let someone in her life in an intimate way before she ties a knot, there`s absolutely nothing wrong with it at all. Every human being male and females alike should have full control over their spiritual, sexual and mental growth and learning.
Just be aware of the selfish ones and enjoy !!!
I wouldnt go in much detail at this time, but I cant resist writing a response to this article either so here is what I would do.
I would do NOTHING AT ALL. More power to her !!!Sexuality is private part of one`s life, just like a man has his way in our society I very truly believe that a woman does too, if she choses to let someone in her life in an intimate way before she ties a knot, there`s absolutely nothing wrong with it at all. Every human being male and females alike should have full control over their spiritual, sexual and mental growth and learning.
Just be aware of the selfish ones and enjoy !!!
#69 Posted by Urstruly on October 19, 2000 5:52:16 pm
IT`S ALL ABOUT FREEDOM STUPID!
In our senseless pursuit of individual freedom we have totally ignored those who cannot speak for themselves. I am talking about the little angels whose souls are burning as fuel in our engine of progress and freedom. Could someone please tell me if KIDDIE PORN is my right or my freedom? Or is it just a commodity that I can buy over the counter.
I wish I were dead after seeing the following site. I have not only lost my peace of mind, for good, but also my faith in humanity and god who claims to be benevolent and all.
http://www.ipass.net/
In our senseless pursuit of individual freedom we have totally ignored those who cannot speak for themselves. I am talking about the little angels whose souls are burning as fuel in our engine of progress and freedom. Could someone please tell me if KIDDIE PORN is my right or my freedom? Or is it just a commodity that I can buy over the counter.
I wish I were dead after seeing the following site. I have not only lost my peace of mind, for good, but also my faith in humanity and god who claims to be benevolent and all.
http://www.ipass.net/
#68 Posted by sadna on October 19, 2000 3:02:05 pm
fairdinkum #68
My statement about independence and free choice and my earlier post #57 related solely to `` my opinion`` about the choices of American/American-born teenagers/young people generally. It may hold true among desis?
Re` history, I didnot mean in the sense of discussing or revealing, I meant as in `facets` of a person`s life. Without trying to pronounce judgement on these facets, I will say I think Western `liberal` societies are less realistic (almost wilfully) than desi societies wrt anticipating consequences of an individual`s actions on the individual and those around her/him.
Back to #1, I think?
Sadhana
My statement about independence and free choice and my earlier post #57 related solely to `` my opinion`` about the choices of American/American-born teenagers/young people generally. It may hold true among desis?
Re` history, I didnot mean in the sense of discussing or revealing, I meant as in `facets` of a person`s life. Without trying to pronounce judgement on these facets, I will say I think Western `liberal` societies are less realistic (almost wilfully) than desi societies wrt anticipating consequences of an individual`s actions on the individual and those around her/him.
Back to #1, I think?
Sadhana
#67 Posted by fairdinkum on October 19, 2000 2:14:45 pm
urstruly,
hmmm, accha theek hai yar..ab khatum...
hmmm, accha theek hai yar..ab khatum...
#66 Posted by fairdinkum on October 19, 2000 1:58:37 pm
sadna #64
Well, if you ask me, matching exactly what one’s peers do, or what one’s favorite pop idol does, down to dressing, does not constitute a true liberal outlook of independence and free choice. In my view, all it constitutes is exchanging indoctrination (in whatever forms/varieties they exist in our culture/tradition), to something even less meaningful and hollow. This, as you rightly point out, unfortunately is the trend amongst our desi population who seem to be more interested in or fearful of (as the case may be depending on who you talk to) superficial, and sometimes unwarranted (in my view) side effects of liberal democracies/western culture than its essence and spirit responsible for delivering the real freedom of choice/liberty/social justice in western societies. deekha I can write long sentences too:)
I was thinking about your statement: “……wondering about his/her previous sexual history, no no thats crossing the line.” And some of the statements I have made in this regard :)
What would be some of the reasons relevant to our culture/people (in terms of cultural practices/norms, sociology, religious influences etc.), which may make us, feel uncomfortable about exploring/talking about the sexual history of our perspective partners?
Why would some of us want to keep our own sexual history a well-guarded secret? These are some of the questions we need to answer to develop a reasonable understanding of the issue you have raised in your above statement.
The issue you have raised in your above statement is more relevant, important, and strikes at the heart of the very issue, which the author has endeavored to explore in her piece (in a rather crude manner, I must say)....
Well, if you ask me, matching exactly what one’s peers do, or what one’s favorite pop idol does, down to dressing, does not constitute a true liberal outlook of independence and free choice. In my view, all it constitutes is exchanging indoctrination (in whatever forms/varieties they exist in our culture/tradition), to something even less meaningful and hollow. This, as you rightly point out, unfortunately is the trend amongst our desi population who seem to be more interested in or fearful of (as the case may be depending on who you talk to) superficial, and sometimes unwarranted (in my view) side effects of liberal democracies/western culture than its essence and spirit responsible for delivering the real freedom of choice/liberty/social justice in western societies. deekha I can write long sentences too:)
I was thinking about your statement: “……wondering about his/her previous sexual history, no no thats crossing the line.” And some of the statements I have made in this regard :)
What would be some of the reasons relevant to our culture/people (in terms of cultural practices/norms, sociology, religious influences etc.), which may make us, feel uncomfortable about exploring/talking about the sexual history of our perspective partners?
Why would some of us want to keep our own sexual history a well-guarded secret? These are some of the questions we need to answer to develop a reasonable understanding of the issue you have raised in your above statement.
The issue you have raised in your above statement is more relevant, important, and strikes at the heart of the very issue, which the author has endeavored to explore in her piece (in a rather crude manner, I must say)....
#65 Posted by pullu on October 19, 2000 12:49:33 pm
{Too many interesting articles and responses on chowk and here i am sitting with my dumb code, trying to make some sense out of it :( }
In-laws...what if they find out...that typical, ``kal-moonhi, pehley se hi moonh kala kar ke aayi thee iss ghar mein.Hai... mere chand jaisey betey ki zindagi barbad kar di iss chudail ney``.
And how does one get her mother-in-law to understand that it is okay nowadays to indulge oneself now and then before marriage?
The guy, it would be HIS fault. He should have asked the girl much earlier than wait for the curtain to rise on the wedding night.
Is pre-marital sex a matter of choice or a matter of opportunity?
Whatever the girl`s compulsions, these issues should have been brought much earlier. And on the wedding night, she would only be naive to expect a ``no problem smile`` from her hubby.
The situation in the article sounded more like jeetendra`s movie. I could actually imagine jaya prada as the bride.
In reality, i actually dread such a situation...sincerely i don`t know how i`ll respond...what will i say..?
Tho lut gaye...lut gaye...
pullu
In-laws...what if they find out...that typical, ``kal-moonhi, pehley se hi moonh kala kar ke aayi thee iss ghar mein.Hai... mere chand jaisey betey ki zindagi barbad kar di iss chudail ney``.
And how does one get her mother-in-law to understand that it is okay nowadays to indulge oneself now and then before marriage?
The guy, it would be HIS fault. He should have asked the girl much earlier than wait for the curtain to rise on the wedding night.
Is pre-marital sex a matter of choice or a matter of opportunity?
Whatever the girl`s compulsions, these issues should have been brought much earlier. And on the wedding night, she would only be naive to expect a ``no problem smile`` from her hubby.
The situation in the article sounded more like jeetendra`s movie. I could actually imagine jaya prada as the bride.
In reality, i actually dread such a situation...sincerely i don`t know how i`ll respond...what will i say..?
Tho lut gaye...lut gaye...
pullu
#64 Posted by zara on October 19, 2000 12:49:33 pm
What if the bride is not virgin because she was raped in past ?????
how many men will understand, and belive it?
how many men will understand, and belive it?
#63 Posted by Urstruly on October 19, 2000 12:22:11 pm
RE: Fairdinkum #63
Jesus! God! Allah! Russel!
Get a grip-for cryin` out loud.
Jesus! God! Allah! Russel!
Get a grip-for cryin` out loud.
#62 Posted by sadna on October 19, 2000 11:38:24 am
fairdinkum #63
Thanks for your words, kind or unkind :-). You make very good points, don`t mind my going off on a tangent to blow off steam :-).
I just haven`t been able to understand how when one`s life choices are based on matching exactly what one`s peers do, or what one`s favorite pop idol does, down to dressing, it is considered to constitute a liberal outlook of independence and free choice.
Sadhana
Thanks for your words, kind or unkind :-). You make very good points, don`t mind my going off on a tangent to blow off steam :-).
I just haven`t been able to understand how when one`s life choices are based on matching exactly what one`s peers do, or what one`s favorite pop idol does, down to dressing, it is considered to constitute a liberal outlook of independence and free choice.
Sadhana
#61 Posted by fairdinkum on October 19, 2000 9:23:59 am
sadna #57
Sadhana,
What a wonderful post! Thoroughly enjoyed it! :) very desi, with a scent of Hindustani/Pakistani mitti approach to dissecting the issue at hand :)
Simple, and yet very practical and brilliant.
I thought only my mother talks like that :) Except for your comment about the sexual history, the rest is indistinguishable from what my mother talks about all the time. :)(i hope you are not offended, i mean it as a compliment)
accha yar theek hai, ammi nay sab khuch bataya tha aur acchi tarah samjha diya tha keh kya theek hai aur kya ghalat hai.. terms like liberal democracy waghira tu apan show marnay kay liya use kartay hain… :) ab yay baat bus apnay tak hi rakhan … theek hai? :)
In principal, I concur with you 100%. It sometimes, really, is a topsy-turvy world :-).
Sadhana,
What a wonderful post! Thoroughly enjoyed it! :) very desi, with a scent of Hindustani/Pakistani mitti approach to dissecting the issue at hand :)
Simple, and yet very practical and brilliant.
I thought only my mother talks like that :) Except for your comment about the sexual history, the rest is indistinguishable from what my mother talks about all the time. :)(i hope you are not offended, i mean it as a compliment)
accha yar theek hai, ammi nay sab khuch bataya tha aur acchi tarah samjha diya tha keh kya theek hai aur kya ghalat hai.. terms like liberal democracy waghira tu apan show marnay kay liya use kartay hain… :) ab yay baat bus apnay tak hi rakhan … theek hai? :)
In principal, I concur with you 100%. It sometimes, really, is a topsy-turvy world :-).
#60 Posted by abysmal on October 18, 2000 7:44:37 pm
After reading all the interacts, I`d like to clarify some points.
1) The gist of my message was that women should NOT base decisions about their body upon cultural standards, but to use their own common sense.
My personal common sense is to abstain until I find the right person. If that means waiting, so be it. I`d rather have it mean something other than just a thrill seeking adventure. We have bunjee jumping for that.
2) Some interactors believe that my message seems too contrived. WEll, the fact of the matter is, I said what I felt. Maybe I am simple minded. I`ve used my personal experiences and values to make the decision.
You all have raised very interesting points. I wish I could reply individually, but there are only 24 hours in one day, and too much work to do.
1) The gist of my message was that women should NOT base decisions about their body upon cultural standards, but to use their own common sense.
My personal common sense is to abstain until I find the right person. If that means waiting, so be it. I`d rather have it mean something other than just a thrill seeking adventure. We have bunjee jumping for that.
2) Some interactors believe that my message seems too contrived. WEll, the fact of the matter is, I said what I felt. Maybe I am simple minded. I`ve used my personal experiences and values to make the decision.
You all have raised very interesting points. I wish I could reply individually, but there are only 24 hours in one day, and too much work to do.
#59 Posted by sahmed on October 18, 2000 7:44:37 pm
One would hope he would know his bride before the wedding night and make his decision then. In this day and age I would expect my wife to maintain the same standards and sense of morality as I do. In other words, if I`m not a virgin, I wouldn`t hold her to a double standard.
#58 Posted by DrQuark on October 18, 2000 7:44:37 pm
Dear Ms A Bismil
I would not be happy. Not because I think that she is ``evil`` or ``bad`` because she had premarital sex, but because I know that she knew that virginity is an issue in a Pakistani marriage. She (presumably) had an opportunity to convey this piece of information to me _before_ the signing of marriage documents, yet she did not. This implies that she intentionally and willfully cheated me as a first act of marriage. A relationship that begins with lying and cheating is rarely a fulfilling one for either party.
hth
DQ
I would not be happy. Not because I think that she is ``evil`` or ``bad`` because she had premarital sex, but because I know that she knew that virginity is an issue in a Pakistani marriage. She (presumably) had an opportunity to convey this piece of information to me _before_ the signing of marriage documents, yet she did not. This implies that she intentionally and willfully cheated me as a first act of marriage. A relationship that begins with lying and cheating is rarely a fulfilling one for either party.
hth
DQ
#57 Posted by maTha on October 18, 2000 7:44:37 pm
Dukhtay/tee * * *, ristay/tee * * * ko RaKhShee ka salaam...
RE: Kestion answer session on Suhaag raat
I think the first follow up question was nicely advertised in the classic filum Sholay:
kitnay aadmee thay woooh??
RE: Kestion answer session on Suhaag raat
I think the first follow up question was nicely advertised in the classic filum Sholay:
kitnay aadmee thay woooh??
#56 Posted by Urstruly on October 18, 2000 1:25:52 pm
RE: Sadna #57
I just got crushed, squished, and splatted under your topsy turvey world. The logic that you usually use is beyond the reaches of my feable mind. Anyway you are entitled to your opinion-For me I think it will take a day or two to sink in.
PS. Plz ignore the harsh tone in this reply, not deliberately intended-I think I have been a li`l bit hard on you lately.
I just got crushed, squished, and splatted under your topsy turvey world. The logic that you usually use is beyond the reaches of my feable mind. Anyway you are entitled to your opinion-For me I think it will take a day or two to sink in.
PS. Plz ignore the harsh tone in this reply, not deliberately intended-I think I have been a li`l bit hard on you lately.
#55 Posted by sadna on October 18, 2000 12:43:35 pm
#47, #48
Its sometimes a topsy-turvy world in a liberal democracy. If your mother advises you about it, and leaves you in no doubt about some of the real consequences for you and others close to you, bad bad, its straight-out indoctrination to be rejected out of hand. However, if a great liberal democracy decides to invest taxpayer dollars in school programs where your teachers are paid to preach abstinence to you, thats quite alright. If a huge number of voters feel strongly that government-funded faith-based programs ought to teach `values` after school, wonderful. Also if some big shots try to look good in an election year by making a public show of persuading media moghuls to refrain from leading young people astray through popular culture, thats also just the greatness of the great liberal democracy. But your mom or dad or community or traditional religion/culture influencing you on the matter of your `free choice` as well, unh unh, soooo uncool.
Also, apparently, its kosher to care a whole lot about what your prospective mate looks like or wears including tattoos :-) or what common interests you share or the music you both listen to, even often what car he/she drives, but wondering about his/her previous sexual history, no no thats crossing the line.
Its sometimes a topsy-turvy world :-).
Sadhana
Its sometimes a topsy-turvy world in a liberal democracy. If your mother advises you about it, and leaves you in no doubt about some of the real consequences for you and others close to you, bad bad, its straight-out indoctrination to be rejected out of hand. However, if a great liberal democracy decides to invest taxpayer dollars in school programs where your teachers are paid to preach abstinence to you, thats quite alright. If a huge number of voters feel strongly that government-funded faith-based programs ought to teach `values` after school, wonderful. Also if some big shots try to look good in an election year by making a public show of persuading media moghuls to refrain from leading young people astray through popular culture, thats also just the greatness of the great liberal democracy. But your mom or dad or community or traditional religion/culture influencing you on the matter of your `free choice` as well, unh unh, soooo uncool.
Also, apparently, its kosher to care a whole lot about what your prospective mate looks like or wears including tattoos :-) or what common interests you share or the music you both listen to, even often what car he/she drives, but wondering about his/her previous sexual history, no no thats crossing the line.
Its sometimes a topsy-turvy world :-).
Sadhana
#54 Posted by grammerwatch on October 18, 2000 11:34:07 am
are you UNCHARTERED territory or UNCHARTED territory? LOL
#53 Posted by Harpreet on October 18, 2000 8:57:32 am
Hamid M:
I love your writing style. It is witty, informative, original and ruthless. Keep up the good work.
regards
Harpreet
I love your writing style. It is witty, informative, original and ruthless. Keep up the good work.
regards
Harpreet
#52 Posted by veeresh on October 18, 2000 8:57:32 am
I guess a bride who wasnt a virgin wouldnt be blushing too much . . . comparing maybe . . .
#51 Posted by mrh on October 18, 2000 8:57:32 am
In my response I will only assume the arrange marriage situation
Firstly, if you are getting married desi style I would hardly think that wedding night would be the time in particular when you will talk about such thing, unless its a question of insecurity. The simple reason is that it will be too late in the night and both parties (the bride and the groom) are too tired too even think of sex.
However, if such conversation does take place there could be few scenarios and possible indication of your future - 1) If the marriage is arranged but the bride and the groom both has been ``around the block``, a rational guy would be understanding and most probably it would be a non issue or at the least he would prefer not to know. Otherwise, you will find out what your mother told you to be true.
2) If the guy is a ``virgin`` and does expect his newly weded wife to be the same then again it is on the rationality of the person in question and how stronly he feel about virginity.
My point is its really not about sex its about how one feels (negatively or positively) about it.
Firstly, if you are getting married desi style I would hardly think that wedding night would be the time in particular when you will talk about such thing, unless its a question of insecurity. The simple reason is that it will be too late in the night and both parties (the bride and the groom) are too tired too even think of sex.
However, if such conversation does take place there could be few scenarios and possible indication of your future - 1) If the marriage is arranged but the bride and the groom both has been ``around the block``, a rational guy would be understanding and most probably it would be a non issue or at the least he would prefer not to know. Otherwise, you will find out what your mother told you to be true.
2) If the guy is a ``virgin`` and does expect his newly weded wife to be the same then again it is on the rationality of the person in question and how stronly he feel about virginity.
My point is its really not about sex its about how one feels (negatively or positively) about it.
#50 Posted by ratiocinator on October 18, 2000 8:57:32 am
There is also the lurking fear in the minds of desis that somehow a spouse who has been *there * will automatically compare every subsequent experience with it.
Fear of inadequacy perhaps ?? What if you don`t measure upto it - after all first experiences are known to influence people profoundly...right ?
#49 Posted by princes on October 18, 2000 8:57:32 am
a.bismal,
I`m surprised to hear that no one really talks about the violation of mutual trust involved in this wedding night scenario. I think that the rules of virginity apply equally to guy or girl--there should be no double-standard. If the guy had admitted the same thing, I would be equally outraged. The issue for me isn`t the physical act of losing one`s virginity (ie the hymen or whatever), but the emotional/spiritual/and even physical cost involved in sex in general.
Sex in this society has been reduced to a very physical and sensual act. ``Everybody is doing it`` is the popular mantra (if you want to be like everybody else!) Instead, sex has a spiritual and vulnerablility aspect too, that can be lost altogether, or if ignored/forgotten, can be taken advantage off. It can lose some of its meaning. I would suggest that people who DON`T see a big deal in virginity are probably missing out on something.
For all our Western beliefs of being ``free``, there are a large number of burdens that come with it, some of which you mentioned and are just not worth it (the pragmatic argument). Alternatively, ``saving oneself for marriage`` is an investment you make in yourself and in your spouse...it speaks to your own self-worth, and even self-discipline. If you appreciate this kind of healthy self-appreciation and strength, you`ll probably seek it in a spouse and in yourself. Probably if you`re a virgin, you have other values that come along with it that also speak toward the same strengths. No one`s asking you to become a monk, but some restraint is an attractive quality. Say what people want, no one wants to live with a ``slut``, whether guy or girl.
I`m surprised to hear that no one really talks about the violation of mutual trust involved in this wedding night scenario. I think that the rules of virginity apply equally to guy or girl--there should be no double-standard. If the guy had admitted the same thing, I would be equally outraged. The issue for me isn`t the physical act of losing one`s virginity (ie the hymen or whatever), but the emotional/spiritual/and even physical cost involved in sex in general.
Sex in this society has been reduced to a very physical and sensual act. ``Everybody is doing it`` is the popular mantra (if you want to be like everybody else!) Instead, sex has a spiritual and vulnerablility aspect too, that can be lost altogether, or if ignored/forgotten, can be taken advantage off. It can lose some of its meaning. I would suggest that people who DON`T see a big deal in virginity are probably missing out on something.
For all our Western beliefs of being ``free``, there are a large number of burdens that come with it, some of which you mentioned and are just not worth it (the pragmatic argument). Alternatively, ``saving oneself for marriage`` is an investment you make in yourself and in your spouse...it speaks to your own self-worth, and even self-discipline. If you appreciate this kind of healthy self-appreciation and strength, you`ll probably seek it in a spouse and in yourself. Probably if you`re a virgin, you have other values that come along with it that also speak toward the same strengths. No one`s asking you to become a monk, but some restraint is an attractive quality. Say what people want, no one wants to live with a ``slut``, whether guy or girl.
#48 Posted by Valiant on October 18, 2000 8:57:32 am
Make no mistake--premarital sex is a serious sin. Those guilty of such crimes are said to literally jump due to the hell flames under them, in the after life. For your own sake, never do it if you fear God.
#47 Posted by fairdinkum on October 18, 2000 5:00:28 am
Urstruly #147
Thanks for your insightful and interesting post. I alluded to some of these issues in my post #1. Unfortunately, liberal democracies put a very high value on freedom/rights/liberty of individuals to choose what is right/wrong for them. And although, my view in this matter is not based on any study (systematic or otherwise), I am inferring from apparent peace, prosperity, and social justice prevalent in societies where liberal democracy is practised, that shortcoming of liberal democracies i.e. downside of individualism, are considerably outweighed by the benefits society reaps as a result of liberal democracy.
However, I do not concur with views of some participants that casual, extramarital sex does not have any repercussions for individual(s) or society.
Your statement:
“1. The arguments and assertions such as “My virginity is my business and my asset”, “Pre-marital sex is a training course to do things ‘right’ at the wedding night” and even crudely put, “It is just an interaction of meat with meat-what’s the big deal” make sense if you somehow take an event of sexual encounter as a discrete event-having no effect, whatsoever, on anything that matters in ones life; and also ignoring the basic sciences of human physiology, sociology, and psychology. “
I do not have any in-depth understanding of the physiological, sociological, and psychological repercussions of such behaviour of individuals on a society, but it can be argued (based on nothing but my personal view, and intuition) that once a person gets into the habit of casual relationships / casual sex, he/she is likely to relapse into such behaviour/activity even after marriage… As they say, old habits die-hard! If one has changed 20-30 (or even 10-15) boy friends/girl friends in one’s life, then how can he/she be contented with one person for the rest of his/her life after marriage? It would be a dreadful thought for such a person to be restricted in his/her sexual activity in such a manner - all on account of signing the dotted line.
Your statement:
“6. Thus, in conclusion, this behavior must be discouraged at all levels-and especially its admission after marriage (especially at wedding night) must be sternly dealt with.”
What do you mean by “sternly dealt with”?
I still think that an analysis of why ancient cultures put so much value to virginity would be interesting. Not all primates encouraged promiscuity of individuals.
On the other hand, there are some very interesting studies, and feminist literature dealing with this issue under the heading of “female infidelity.” Their argument is also based on the naturalness of this behaviour. It is natural for males and females to mate with the best looking (physically, mentally, intellectually) partner so that his/her offspring can inherit all these good qualities/traits. A study of a poor shanty town in India found that most women preferred to marry men who were financially sound, but when it came to reproducing offspring, an estimated 30% of women sought physically better looking men to get pregnant with. Another study of males indicated that while his female partner went away for work to another town, his brain instructed the reproductive organs to produce sperms about 100 times in greater quantity than normal. When the female partner arrived back and they had sex, the sperm count was astronomical This was apparently due to a subconscious fear of “female infidelity” and the large number of sperms were to counter the possibility that she may have had sex while in the other town.
Repression of females all over the world, especially in conservative societies like Pakistan (chadar aur char deewari, purdah etc.), is explained on the basis of this fear of female infidelity.
Thanks for your insightful and interesting post. I alluded to some of these issues in my post #1. Unfortunately, liberal democracies put a very high value on freedom/rights/liberty of individuals to choose what is right/wrong for them. And although, my view in this matter is not based on any study (systematic or otherwise), I am inferring from apparent peace, prosperity, and social justice prevalent in societies where liberal democracy is practised, that shortcoming of liberal democracies i.e. downside of individualism, are considerably outweighed by the benefits society reaps as a result of liberal democracy.
However, I do not concur with views of some participants that casual, extramarital sex does not have any repercussions for individual(s) or society.
Your statement:
“1. The arguments and assertions such as “My virginity is my business and my asset”, “Pre-marital sex is a training course to do things ‘right’ at the wedding night” and even crudely put, “It is just an interaction of meat with meat-what’s the big deal” make sense if you somehow take an event of sexual encounter as a discrete event-having no effect, whatsoever, on anything that matters in ones life; and also ignoring the basic sciences of human physiology, sociology, and psychology. “
I do not have any in-depth understanding of the physiological, sociological, and psychological repercussions of such behaviour of individuals on a society, but it can be argued (based on nothing but my personal view, and intuition) that once a person gets into the habit of casual relationships / casual sex, he/she is likely to relapse into such behaviour/activity even after marriage… As they say, old habits die-hard! If one has changed 20-30 (or even 10-15) boy friends/girl friends in one’s life, then how can he/she be contented with one person for the rest of his/her life after marriage? It would be a dreadful thought for such a person to be restricted in his/her sexual activity in such a manner - all on account of signing the dotted line.
Your statement:
“6. Thus, in conclusion, this behavior must be discouraged at all levels-and especially its admission after marriage (especially at wedding night) must be sternly dealt with.”
What do you mean by “sternly dealt with”?
I still think that an analysis of why ancient cultures put so much value to virginity would be interesting. Not all primates encouraged promiscuity of individuals.
On the other hand, there are some very interesting studies, and feminist literature dealing with this issue under the heading of “female infidelity.” Their argument is also based on the naturalness of this behaviour. It is natural for males and females to mate with the best looking (physically, mentally, intellectually) partner so that his/her offspring can inherit all these good qualities/traits. A study of a poor shanty town in India found that most women preferred to marry men who were financially sound, but when it came to reproducing offspring, an estimated 30% of women sought physically better looking men to get pregnant with. Another study of males indicated that while his female partner went away for work to another town, his brain instructed the reproductive organs to produce sperms about 100 times in greater quantity than normal. When the female partner arrived back and they had sex, the sperm count was astronomical This was apparently due to a subconscious fear of “female infidelity” and the large number of sperms were to counter the possibility that she may have had sex while in the other town.
Repression of females all over the world, especially in conservative societies like Pakistan (chadar aur char deewari, purdah etc.), is explained on the basis of this fear of female infidelity.
#46 Posted by Urstruly on October 17, 2000 9:53:24 pm
“WHAT’S WRONG WITH THAT?”
Dear A.Bismil,
``What is wrong with that?`` One must have noticed this repetitive phrase in various interactor`s posts. Despite a question mark at the end of the phrase I don’t think that writers intend it to be taken as a question; I would rather take it is a positive assertion. I hope your intention was also not to run a survey to find out what peo
Dear A.Bismil,
``What is wrong with that?`` One must have noticed this repetitive phrase in various interactor`s posts. Despite a question mark at the end of the phrase I don’t think that writers intend it to be taken as a question; I would rather take it is a positive assertion. I hope your intention was also not to run a survey to find out what peo