The Burden of Virginity

“I`d like to ask the men reading: what would you do if your blushing bride told you she wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night?”

A. Bismil Bibi, welcome to chowk!

I reckon many men and women have explored this subject many a times… So, your piece is not really a virgin :) . And we don’t even need a white bed sheet on wedding night to prove that :)

As for your above question, I doubt any South Asian bride would ever do that…. however, if I ever faced such a situation (which is highly unlikely), I would:

a)be in a slight trouble – why? Knowing my woman, I am absolutely positive that the only reason she would tell me this is to extract information on this matter from me :)

b)hit the iron when it’s hot! Let me elaborate…. Since she has confessed about not being a virgin, I would innocently tell her that what she did was wrong, but I am an open minded person and I forgive her… I reckon she’d be my slave for the rest of her life…don’t you agree? :) And the question of who is going to do which household chores would never arise… :)

On a serious note, why should I expect my woman to have the “product specifications” that I don’t have? (alright, in a woman, certain physical specifications are essential and every man has a right to expect those in his woman) ………. I like the Pentagon policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell” on this matter… it’s a good healthy policy…

On a more serious note, you are right about the downside of having casual sex/casual relationships…sometimes it ain’t worth it.. and if you can live without having casual sex/relationships until you find the “one” you know is “the one” (don’t ask me how), you are much better off on your own… I don`t know about you, but I find the grief and pain of relationship failures rather ominous now..

On an absolutely serious note, this matter needs an in-depth analysis…

Why do ancient/semi ancient cultures put so much value on woman’s virginity? (this issue, btw, is not restricted to a particular culture or religion)

Is it an evil, backward, absurd tradition? - a product of our centuries old, conservative, male dominated, patriarchal societies?

Or is there something deeper, which the wise elders of our culture/society point to when they insist on the value of virginity?

virginity, if referring to the existance of that famously brittle integument, is a hoax. The earlier one gets rid of it the better. As far as I am concerned, I would prefer a girl with `that look in her eyes` as my bride since I find it difficult to tolerate blushing women.

Sorry, temporal, I only know of two ratios:

The US Army went from a ratio of 1.9:10,000 (general rank officers to enlisted men) in 1945 to 6.4 in 1980. I believe its gotten worse since then.

The Russians are at about 1:833 now! Just about the highest in history, I would think.

Incidentally, there is another ``Law`` of military efficiency that might interest you: ``The side with the fanciest military uniforms will lose.`` I believe it was more applicable to the pre-1940 armies more than the post 1945 ones but its still a good law.

Regards.

If you haven`t lost your virginity by a certain age lets say 23 it actually becomes more and more difficult to get rid of it. Women especially hang onto it as some sort of a treasure that will be bestowed upon the lucky one. They also find perfectly logical explanations to support their stand as that article illustrates.

Now what I`d like to see is an equivalent article from a 28 year old male virgin from Sialkot who is studying in Oklahoma State.

later

-sac

Many pre-modern cultures (and I use the term knowing its negative connotations--Political Correctness and multiculturalness be damned!) have the same virginity fetish that we do. I believe in some Greek Macedonian villages (obviously the really remote ones) its still customary for the girl`s mother-in-law to display the bloodstained sheet the next morning as `proof` of virginity. Intelligent wives, husbands and/or mothers-in-law would of course arrange for there to be some blood on the sheet irrespective of virginity.

Assuming you take a few basic precautions (condoms for one), there are really very few physical risks attached to having sex, marital or otherwise. I am not advocating nymphomania or satyrism but serial monogamy has nothing wrong with it. Emotional issues are another matter entirely but that is a result of the head-games your mother played with you.

The subversion of female sexuality - the repression of female desire (by name calling e.g. ``slut`` ``na hanjar`` ``randi`` by physical violance e.g. Saima Waheed etc. by excommunication and social censure as you have described) was created to control and dominate women. It was created so that women had a difficult time choosing the right mates for them (so that their fathers / mothers could enact the right sort of economic or social alliance). It was created so that the legitimate mates (the right lovers for a woman - by ``right`` I mean : the right age, the right looks, the right feelings and interests) were excluded. It was created by some powerful men (ugly, fat, mean and without interest in life) who wanted to prevent the compatible men and women from loving each other.
These patriarchs (fat, ugly powerful feudal lords, prophets, kings etc.) have used everything from violance to achieve their ends to discrete mental subjugation and brainwashing (religion).
Now to the question : I`d like to ask the men reading: what would you do if your blushing bride told you she wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night?
If you are at a point where you have to ask such a question then I dread the future of my three sisters (who by the way live in Karachi).
I would tell you : you are amongst the wrong people. Come join us - who have walked away from this madness. I would tell you what I tell my sisters : get a career, become financially strong, move out of their house (and community) , live on your own and ponder in solitude. After that you will not need to know the answers to such questions.
But if you insist - I LOVE asking my bride_s_ about their first love, their first kiss, their steamiest encounters, their most passionate love making. Recollection of erotic memories works as useful foreplay. On the whole it is a lot more work if a woman is a virgin. She does not hit the ground running because most of their sexuality is either repressed or needs work. Is it any wonder so many women rarely ever have orgasms? ( though bad, selfish men are to blame also) Virgins ofcourse have the right to do whatever they want (nothing wrong with choosing to be celibate as long as they know they are choosing to retard their sexuality- after all some men like to make love to children also).
(BTW use some other word for the guy who impregnated this clueless girl and then married some cousin. Call this marauder a typical Pakistani, or a typical frustrated Arab out to sow his seeds, call him a deserter, call him a brute and a misogynist but don`t call him a casanova or a playboy - they are men of honor, gentlemen with a strict code, sculpted warriors with a mission : destroy hate and deliver love from its chains. They never leave their customers un satisfied. But just because most men like to pretend or would like to imagine they were casanovas, it does not make them one)

After going through some literature from female writers exclusively written for females I have reached to the conclusion that woman get a sadistic as well as a masochistic, near orgasmic pleasure by imagining this fantasy.

A superficial analysis may lead us to ``repressed sexuality`` syndrome-but I think it is deeper than that. I think it has something to do with a sense of control-i.e. having control over male counterparts by exploiting their fear of uncertainity.

Virginity, thou art hath fled to brutish hearts and men`s organs of increase hath decreased in their strenght! :)

What would I do if my bride told me that she was sans hymen...rock on, got any interesting ideas in mind that we can try out!

Ciao!

well,is she says she is not virgin,the first thing that comes to mind is that whether she is HIV positive or not.

the writer should have taken a more subtle tone to make fuss about this one-night-stand-types desi dilemmas...

``And as for youth madam, that withered flower pressed in the pages of a hymn book is like a barren desert where duty will force me to ride into`` -

King Henry II to his un-virgined bride - in the movie Beckett

What does it matter. Everybody`s doing it. Welcome to the 21st century where women even in south asia are free and where still - a lot men can never really tell the difference. (Reflection on the south asian male - big egos but no olympic medals).

Advice to the young teenage women - start horse riding, gymnastics heard it breaks the hymen. Just learn not to always get emotionally attached at a young age. Dying for that day to happen. When desi women finally get liberated.

ahem

Bismil, has placed some very interesting, thought provoking and insightful issues on the table. A very interesting article highlighting the dilemma of most South Asian females in our contemporary society.

Most of this hype(pressure to have sex) is created by, (1)Media and (2)Distortion of religious values.

I live in Canada and there is no pressure to keep or lose virginity. It depends what you make out of the social norms, your priorities and the right time to exercise certain inherent rights with an informed decision without any hindrance or pressure.

However, to answer Bismil`s question, I would be disappointed if my wife had a sinful past. Though, lack of her virginity through incest and/or rape would not stop me from marrying the girl.

Hence, Ms. Bismil`s question has many answers depending on the situation. I think I have made myself clear.

A good read. 2 thumps up for Bismil!

You wrote: ``I`d like to ask the men reading: what would you do if your blushing bride told you she wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night?``

I would think it should be the blushing bride`s personal business for which she needs no explanations. Unless of course she changes her mind after the blushing groom starts recalling his misdemeanors and worse, starting with his adventures at age eight with the cat...

Your question answered, I trust you will cool your raging harmones and get back to the reason your parents sent you to the US.

First of all nicely written, but holding on to the prized jewel maybe isn`t worth all this hassle these days. You can definitely protect yourself from diseases or pregnancy if you take proper precautionary steps.

Now on to your loaded question, I sincerely hope that it is not the night of my wedding that I find out that my wife is (or is not) a virgin. I can only hope that before I get married she knows everything about me and I about her. If this involves me knowing if she has had any lesbian experiences then dammit I want to know about them too :) Virginity!! Shirminity!! It really does not make any sense these days....Just my $0.02

P.S. I have already attended grad school at an East Coast University.

mansoorfaridi..
no pressure you say yet you call it a sinful
past.
hypocritical.

rizvi.

A. Bismil:

Question: Why the wedding night?

scout #12:

darn... you had to spoil it didn`t ya? here i was counting how many guys it`d be before some woman came along to comment on the article... but then your post doesn`t really count does it? :) so..... so far it`s been 13 men (assuming paradise lost and raw dust are male) and one scout, and myself of course... interesting... btw, still around huh? heehee... told you so...

Shouldn`t the bride also ask the groom the very same questions? Why the double standard?

Also, this is an issue that should not wait till the night of the wedding. Be it arranged or not, there has to be some free and frank discussion well before the ceremony.

the double stds of society.

say - what does happen to the women who ``save themselves`` but then due to some hyper-activity (!sexual in nature) lose the - ahem - symbol of purity !

what then ???

Re: Bismil Bibi

There is more to life than a membrane !!!

If your husband asks you this virginal question on your wedding night, you probably married the wrong guy.

In my opinion, virginity is not ``down there`` its probably ``up there`` somewhere.

Could it be that virginity has turned into more of an issue for some women these days than it remains for most men?

If virginity, like permed hair, boosts your self-concept, by all means hold on to it. Beyong that it means little else. I know wonderful non-virgins and horrid virgins, and vice-versa.

More than anything else, I enjoyed the fact that religion was kept out of this. What stays with me the most are parents and friends telling me that I`d go to hell for having pre-marital sex.

``Yes, but what if I save a thousand children from dying some time in my life?``

``You`re still going to hell.``

Justification: it aint pre-marital sex if you never get married.

Here`s a situation: A friend of mine who was a blushing bride just a few months ago encountered a husband who revealed at their wedding night that he had had a realtionship with a man.

Ladies, what would YOU do in THAT situation?

If a someone tells his or her spouse something disturbing/hidden about their past on the wedding night, I don`t think they are being honest. It is too late, relationship has already been established, too much damage will be done to too many people.

It would be honest to tell the truth before the wedding is fixed. Now such a person I will respect who is being honest at the beginning of the relationship not when train has already crossed the bridge.

Thank you all for interacting to my article.

Judging from the interacts, the men seem to have reached a general concensus as to the importance of de-virginization. But then, they are speaking from a male sexually driven perspective. I`m sure the thought of their bride having been with another man would eat at them, even though they might not admit it. Desi male egos are hard to surpress despite the ``modernization and western intellectualism.``

I`d like to hear from the ladies as well. If you are a virgin, I`d like to hear about how you came to the decision. And if you are not a virgin, (before marriage of course), what made you decide to have sex, and do you regret it and why?

Since this is a very sensitive matter, feel free to change your normal usernames in order to answer these personal questions.

Lubna #17,

uralo mazaak gandi bachi :) i`m leaving i really am.

aur please in logon say kaho gandi baatein mat karain. mujhe sharam aati hai parh kay. kaheen main dozakh ki aag main na jal jaun aisi waahiyaat baatein parh kay.

....... i hate to be a party-pooper, but let me remind my dear Brothers and Sisters that Allah (SWT) did not mince any words, when he said :

``[17.32] And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.``

.... i am horrified, disgusted, and really quite mortified by this ..... this horrible display of lewd, lascivious, lecherous, libidinous, ruttish, salacious and behaviour unbecoming of the Ummah ........ i expect this type of disgusting behaviour from those ... those Hindus - those other pagan dwellers of the sub-continent but not from people with names like Bismil ........

....... beware the wrath of Mullah Omar who has been known to tumble mud walls on impure wenches and their devil-incarnate partners..... Ya Allah - spare us the agony that you inflicted on the followers of Mr.Lot and Mr.Noah and the hedons who frequented Studio-54 ...... these people don`t know what they say .... they are young, hormone-crazy and in dire need of cold-showers .....

.... so Sisters, repeat after me :

`` I will cherish my body and sexuality as gifts from God and give myself time to grow, mature, and understand who I am and what God wants me to be in my life. I will take pride in being chaste because it pleases God and offers me the greatest freedom in life ``

....... may Allah Bless you and save your miserable skins from the wrath of the Taliban....

first i thought about concealing my identity but
that just isnt my style...
i did think again about why i wanted
to..(conceal my identity that is...) the bad rep,
the this, the that, the looks, the comments, you
know the drill if you are a woman. no woman
who isnt married and south asian will confess
that openly to not being a virgin. so, neither
will i :) too many people in real life and chowk
life know me for me to survive the onslaught of
well meaning yet misguided advice and
solicitations..

think carefully about what you are doing..dont
have regrets...in anything least of all in sex.
nothing is worth regretting it later. let it feel
right..if it feels right with the boy next door, go
for it, if it feels right only if you are married then
wait.

if you are being brought up the `right way` in a
good s. asain household, you will attach
enough guilt to your every action so ...god help
you. we make good religious cousins to the
catholics.

i dont like to be thought of as a commodity.
my virginity is not the only important thing
about me..hell, it isnt important in the grand
scheme of things...you have to live a life with
me, not with something you take from me.

im interested in knowing what i will do if my
husband tells me he is a virgin. blushingly,
ofcourse.

are most men out there assuming that they
will marry a virgin? (those of you who wont
already have slept with your future wives)...i,
for one, hope that i wont. for the virgins out
there...think about it: two inexperianced
people, one night...spells disaster as far as
im concerned.

rizvi.

I still fail to understand how virginity began to be regarded as an asset.

I wonder if there is a way to capitalize of it.

Just imagine parents of bride and groom haggling over the dowry discussing how much the bride`s virginity or lack therefor is worth.

``I feel 50% discount for her untraversed kaut is fair``.

``No sir, I can only agree to 10%``

Or

``The girl is not a virgin, the marriage will bring defile our family honor. As you saab, news as such can`t be suppressed-it travels and travels. Just imagine the shame. We are stone-hearts…shameful indiscretion of youth must be forgiven, especially for such a darling child. We really really wish to give you daughter a sanctuary and dignity. But, we are terrified of the shame such news, if it fell on gossiping ears, may bring. Now, if there were 3 lakhs more in dowry, wee know we can purge this character blemish to the silent past.

A brilliant article. Points out the superficial taboos of our society. Where people get away with all the vices under the sun. And look down upon females only who are not virgins. Strange the very same pure society of ours does not look down upon non-virgin guys. I ask fellow desi males to look at this article as guide to our own hollowness before passing judgements on only the females. After all if a girl sleeps with some guy, the male should equally be blamed.

Interesting article but rather disappointing toward the end. Now, I am not a proponent of premarital sex but it seemed to me that the author came to a rather convenient reason for her abstention toward the end. Kind of having your cake and eating it too. Where earlier her fear and trepidation of being found out and cast away from a normal life kept her a virgin, now fear and trepidation of other types of consequences maintains that state.

Written well, but rather too pat toward the end. Her parents will be happy (and so one assumes will be her future husband) and so will she, since a rather traditional reason for abstention has been replaced with a more modern, *responsible * one. For me, something did not ring true in this whole piece. But that could also be attributed to to a severe cold and too much Nyquil.:-)

Fuzair #99 Make a soldier a batman and his spirit dies in due course. This is the worst thing you can do to a soldier.

Nasah #91 ``I hope my Pakistani friends will forgive for saying this. There are two curses that have befallen Pakistan since its inception/conception: Pakistani ISLAM and Pakistani ARMY.``

Agreed, and you are forgiven. But look what we have as compensation:

3. Pakistani POLITICIANS - they work 18 hours serving the country, and when they sleep they dream about how they can work harder for the people they serve;

4. Pakistan`s NEIGBORS - Those fun-loving Afghans and their swinging Kabuli nightclubs; those warm, loving Indians who never met a Paki they didnt like; those cool Iranians...

Gotta go, I am being summoned by the Pakistani FAMILY SYSTEM that leaves a man alone...

urstruly #137 ``It would have made more sense if a leader who had risen from the lower echelons of society had committed corruption.``

This remark is a puzzlement. (quote, kind of, from the King and I).

urstruly #137 further to my previous note, I shall include that remark in my forthcoming book ``The Wit and Wisdom of Urstruly``.

what jawahara said...

scout #26:

[[aur please in logon say kaho gandi baatein mat karain. mujhe sharam aati hai parh kay. kaheen main dozakh ki aag main na jal jaun aisi waahiyaat baatein parh kay. ]]

i know what you mean... i never blush - but all this is making me. and it`s not even my wedding night... :) (which reminds me of my question, why the wedding night? anyway...)

rahi dauzag ki baat - you never know how you might get punished for this - maybe yeh jo tum idhar ghoom rahi ho instead of studying is your punishment? ;) repeat that prayer hamidm has posted - shayed muaf kardi jao...

alireza #23:

haha... where i live the ladies, when faced with such a situation (which is quite often), tell the guys about the relationships THEY`VE had with other WOMEN... and i kid you not...

hamidm #27:

[[they are young, hormone-crazy and in dire need of cold-showers .....]]

aha! that`s what we need here (where i live) - cold showers! but alas, cold water isn`t available that easily here - weather`s too hot... but Allah is most understanding and forgiving... it`s not our fault the weather`s too hot!

It`s mostly just the dictation of our sexuality that women need liberation from, whether it be from the mullahs telling us what we can and can`t do in our beds, to now `so-called-emancipated, sexually obsessed` s. asian men, advising us to explore our sexuality- so that, hm… now my feudal lord doesn`t get bored in bed.

If it`s not one type of domination, it`s very quickly another…

Whenever there is any criticism of the army, apologists like Field Marshal in waiting ROmair and hobbyty jump in enumerating in great detail the evils of politicians like NS and Benazir and at the same time demand a constitutional rule for the army in the government. The view is highly flawed because it tries to justify a wrong practice by discrediting another wrong practice.

A country always gets the leadership it deserves. The view that NS and his likes do not represent the ordinary Pakistani and need a higher life form(Generals) to guide them smacks of ignorance bordering on arrogance. Barring some isolated pockets, Pakistan is still a very primitive society and it elects people according to primitive laws of land-ownership and tribal affiliations. Even NS I would argue is a true representative of the area he represented in the parliament(Gowalmandi). He probably understands the concerns of the average ``Butt`` better than all the super Generals combined. Doubting that is an indictment of the political process they call representative democracy. At least come out and openly admit it. Invest in improving literacy levels, remove the Mullah from the center stage and the level of leadership one gets at the local level will improve automatically.

The leadership at the highest level even in highly developed democracies of the west comes from a very elite class that is very different from the leadership at the local levels. Even the average congressman or Senator in the US is not an intellectual fountainhead. These people are more interested in the welfare of their local precincts and lining the pockets of their lackeys and their constituents than in setting shining fortresses of democracy.

I`ve argued before that the Army does not fit the profile for providing leadership, intellectual or otherwise at the highest levels of political governance. This task has to be undertaken by the resident civilian elite in Paksitan. Bhutto probably had the best chance of asserting the civilian dominance. Something which he sadly squandered in grandoise fashion. The army as it is now will never reform itself till the point that external pressures and internal economic malaise result in a massive civilian uprising. The scenario may seem far-fetched but its not improbabale given the day-by-day deteriorating lot of the common man. Who will fill the power vacuum? The mullahs or the civilian elite who truly deserve it. My money is on the former.

later

-sac

Re: Tahmed321

Its not acting as a batman that destroys and degrades a soldier`s spirit, its being treated as a virtual slave by the officer and his begum sahiba that does this. There is a big difference between a batman and a slave. The Gora Saab knew the difference. Our officers and, especially their wives, don`t.

I remember, in the stupidity and arrogance of youth, telling off a havildar (who was actually just doing his job) about something in no uncertain terms and being quite proud of how I had put the man, in front of several ORs, in his place. How dare a mere havildar tell me what to do!

I also recall my father`s reaction to this: he made it clear, also in no uncertain terms, that the man was the government`s servant and not mine and if I was to ever speak that way to any soldier again, my life would not be worth living and the next day I was to publicly apologize for my disgraceful behavior and ask for his forgiveness. I think the man was more embarrassed than I was.

Having to put up with stuff like this, day in and day out, from snot-nosed officer`s brats, and worse from their begum sahibas, is what destroys the batman`s spirit. Cleaning the officer`s shoes or polishing his pips does not.

Regards.

Putting hamidm`s illuminating perspective aside I have a sneaking suspision that the ladies protest too much about the double standards employed to judge premarital sexual activity of the two sexes. Women(if they had a choice) would prefer experienced men as boyfriends/husbands. Its the desi men who have a hard time if the shoe is on the other foot. But then men and women put a premium on different things in a potential spouse anyway. Why decry the double standards?

re ah #31:

Agreed. Pitiful yet poignant(I hope).

later

-sac

Bismil,
thanks for writing this very thought provoking article. It raises some very important
questions about female sexuality amongst Desis.
Sex and risk go together. Out of wedlock children in Eastern societies are not easily accepted without any fault of their own. In
Pakistan the Edhi Foundation is doing its level best to save infants produced out of wedlock. Sex
is not a crime before marriage (I`m sure that there are no such criminals out there on CHOWK except for Rehaan?) but it does involve much responsibility. It has created quite an impact in Western society and many problems have come to be associated with it.
In answer to your concluding question, my answer would have been ``Is that all?``
There are many more important things in life than
virginity. I prefer blushing brides AND GROOMS, but even if they are not first timers, the institution of marriage remains important.

Ras

PS. HamidM, you need to write more and publish regular articles on CHOWK. Stop sitting on the fence and jump in.

Re:HAMIDM

more power to u hamidm...

needs guts to say this in the prevalent stale psuedo-intellectualism....

hey,

just turned 24 ....3 weeks ago and still a virgin

.. and am i proud to be that ?? well yeah sort of

cause for men in this desi society have more then enough choices to run there horses whenever they wish too only a little guilt, a little pressure of society of religion could stop u from doing this ... only if thoes above mention things matter to you ... these things matter to me so i didnt did it !!

but the question is am I saving it so i could realy feel myself that I deserve a virgin wife ??

hell no !! i didn’t did it cause my guilt wont let me enjoy it anyway !!

well for the question ....

i wont marry anyone before knowing her real closely ...

(tough my mother wants me to be otherwise)

and if i know her and she is my type ... hell it dosent matter if she is virgin or not !!

as long as she wants me now more then anything too !!

peace !!!

What is the guarantee that the person who has sex before marriage will not commit adultery after the marriage. Afterall, sexual escapades are not new to that person. When two people are involved physically, are there no emotions involved in it ?

Assuming that your spouse has the heart, how can he/she reconcile to the fact that for you ( i don`t mean you, it`s just a figure of speech... ) marriage is just a joke and an instrument to ruin a person`s life.

“WHAT’S WRONG WITH THAT?”

Dear A.Bismil,

``What is wrong with that?`` One must have noticed this repetitive phrase in various interactor`s posts. Despite a question mark at the end of the phrase I don’t think that writers intend it to be taken as a question; I would rather take it is a positive assertion. I hope your intention was also not to run a survey to find out what people (particularly females) think about the issue at hand; you could have easily found your answers in any other issue of Cosmopolitan.

Whereas hamidm has shed light on this issue through a particular angle, I think we should explore other angles and points of view too:

1. The arguments and assertions such as “My virginity is my business and my asset”, “Pre-marital sex is a training course to do things ‘right’ at the wedding night” and even crudely put, “It is just an interaction of meat with meat-what’s the big deal” make sense if you somehow take an event of sexual encounter as a discrete event-having no effect, whatsoever, on anything that matters in ones life; and also ignoring the basic sciences of human physiology, sociology, and psychology.

2. The phenomenon of extra-marital sex-whether pre-marital or post-marital- can be classified as a social behavior. I regret to say that it is an anti-social behavior. It breaks down the family structure, which may be considered as the basic unit of a society. One may argue that an individual is the basic unit of the society and not the family-but doesn`t this logic defeat itself? If an individual is more important than society then why do we need a society?

3. The human beings are different than protozoa and all other multi-cellular organisms in only one aspect and, that is, they possess moral values. Whether the nature of these moral values is revelational or it is based on continued development of human mind through successive experiences-they need moral values to accommodate an individual into the society. This logic leads us to the conclusion that an individual`s certain (instinctive) set of behavior must be conformed to the collective set of moral values of the society. In other words the best interest of the society overrides the individual`s urge to satisfy its basal set of instincts.

4. A society may bargain some of its moral values to sanction individuals some leeway-but observation tells us that the society as whole pays dearly and so does the individual-it’s a lose-lose situation.

5. Unfortunately, observation also tells us that a person involved in extra-marital sexual behavior is most likely to repeat the pattern even if he/she is involved in a monogamous relationship (marriage or common law-doesn`t matter). This behavior thus fails the purpose of a family and consequently it is anti-social. Ultimately, humanity loses at large.

6. Thus, in conclusion, this behavior must be discouraged at all levels-and especially its admission after marriage (especially at wedding night) must be sternly dealt with.

7. Observation also tells us that, it is highly unlikely, that a marriage or a common law arrangement survives-if one or both partners had had extra-marital sex-before or after. We also observe that this phenomenon exhibits itself in a different manner in ``closed societies`` where the union may survive due to economical or societal compulsions but it can never be a (mutually) satisfactory relationship. The result is equally disastrous.

Whether we receive our moral guidance from our revelational knowledge-base or from the knowledge-base established by our powers of deduction and reasoning that evolved over the centuries, we reach the same set of conclusions. The observations confirm the naturalness of our conclusions. However, if we prefer to seek our moral guidance by studying the behavior of primates and establish our society on these observations then the best we can get is a society of clothed primates. But still one may argue,

“What’s wrong with that?”

Urstruly #147

Thanks for your insightful and interesting post. I alluded to some of these issues in my post #1. Unfortunately, liberal democracies put a very high value on freedom/rights/liberty of individuals to choose what is right/wrong for them. And although, my view in this matter is not based on any study (systematic or otherwise), I am inferring from apparent peace, prosperity, and social justice prevalent in societies where liberal democracy is practised, that shortcoming of liberal democracies i.e. downside of individualism, are considerably outweighed by the benefits society reaps as a result of liberal democracy.

However, I do not concur with views of some participants that casual, extramarital sex does not have any repercussions for individual(s) or society.


Your statement:

“1. The arguments and assertions such as “My virginity is my business and my asset”, “Pre-marital sex is a training course to do things ‘right’ at the wedding night” and even crudely put, “It is just an interaction of meat with meat-what’s the big deal” make sense if you somehow take an event of sexual encounter as a discrete event-having no effect, whatsoever, on anything that matters in ones life; and also ignoring the basic sciences of human physiology, sociology, and psychology. “

I do not have any in-depth understanding of the physiological, sociological, and psychological repercussions of such behaviour of individuals on a society, but it can be argued (based on nothing but my personal view, and intuition) that once a person gets into the habit of casual relationships / casual sex, he/she is likely to relapse into such behaviour/activity even after marriage… As they say, old habits die-hard! If one has changed 20-30 (or even 10-15) boy friends/girl friends in one’s life, then how can he/she be contented with one person for the rest of his/her life after marriage? It would be a dreadful thought for such a person to be restricted in his/her sexual activity in such a manner - all on account of signing the dotted line.

Your statement:

“6. Thus, in conclusion, this behavior must be discouraged at all levels-and especially its admission after marriage (especially at wedding night) must be sternly dealt with.”

What do you mean by “sternly dealt with”?

I still think that an analysis of why ancient cultures put so much value to virginity would be interesting. Not all primates encouraged promiscuity of individuals.

On the other hand, there are some very interesting studies, and feminist literature dealing with this issue under the heading of “female infidelity.” Their argument is also based on the naturalness of this behaviour. It is natural for males and females to mate with the best looking (physically, mentally, intellectually) partner so that his/her offspring can inherit all these good qualities/traits. A study of a poor shanty town in India found that most women preferred to marry men who were financially sound, but when it came to reproducing offspring, an estimated 30% of women sought physically better looking men to get pregnant with. Another study of males indicated that while his female partner went away for work to another town, his brain instructed the reproductive organs to produce sperms about 100 times in greater quantity than normal. When the female partner arrived back and they had sex, the sperm count was astronomical This was apparently due to a subconscious fear of “female infidelity” and the large number of sperms were to counter the possibility that she may have had sex while in the other town.

Repression of females all over the world, especially in conservative societies like Pakistan (chadar aur char deewari, purdah etc.), is explained on the basis of this fear of female infidelity.

Make no mistake--premarital sex is a serious sin. Those guilty of such crimes are said to literally jump due to the hell flames under them, in the after life. For your own sake, never do it if you fear God.

a.bismal,

I`m surprised to hear that no one really talks about the violation of mutual trust involved in this wedding night scenario. I think that the rules of virginity apply equally to guy or girl--there should be no double-standard. If the guy had admitted the same thing, I would be equally outraged. The issue for me isn`t the physical act of losing one`s virginity (ie the hymen or whatever), but the emotional/spiritual/and even physical cost involved in sex in general.

Sex in this society has been reduced to a very physical and sensual act. ``Everybody is doing it`` is the popular mantra (if you want to be like everybody else!) Instead, sex has a spiritual and vulnerablility aspect too, that can be lost altogether, or if ignored/forgotten, can be taken advantage off. It can lose some of its meaning. I would suggest that people who DON`T see a big deal in virginity are probably missing out on something.

For all our Western beliefs of being ``free``, there are a large number of burdens that come with it, some of which you mentioned and are just not worth it (the pragmatic argument). Alternatively, ``saving oneself for marriage`` is an investment you make in yourself and in your spouse...it speaks to your own self-worth, and even self-discipline. If you appreciate this kind of healthy self-appreciation and strength, you`ll probably seek it in a spouse and in yourself. Probably if you`re a virgin, you have other values that come along with it that also speak toward the same strengths. No one`s asking you to become a monk, but some restraint is an attractive quality. Say what people want, no one wants to live with a ``slut``, whether guy or girl.

There is also the lurking fear in the minds of desis that somehow a spouse who has been *there * will automatically compare every subsequent experience with it.

Fear of inadequacy perhaps ?? What if you don`t measure upto it - after all first experiences are known to influence people profoundly...right ?

In my response I will only assume the arrange marriage situation

Firstly, if you are getting married desi style I would hardly think that wedding night would be the time in particular when you will talk about such thing, unless its a question of insecurity. The simple reason is that it will be too late in the night and both parties (the bride and the groom) are too tired too even think of sex.

However, if such conversation does take place there could be few scenarios and possible indication of your future - 1) If the marriage is arranged but the bride and the groom both has been ``around the block``, a rational guy would be understanding and most probably it would be a non issue or at the least he would prefer not to know. Otherwise, you will find out what your mother told you to be true.

2) If the guy is a ``virgin`` and does expect his newly weded wife to be the same then again it is on the rationality of the person in question and how stronly he feel about virginity.

My point is its really not about sex its about how one feels (negatively or positively) about it.

I guess a bride who wasnt a virgin wouldnt be blushing too much . . . comparing maybe . . .

Hamid M:

I love your writing style. It is witty, informative, original and ruthless. Keep up the good work.

regards

Harpreet

are you UNCHARTERED territory or UNCHARTED territory? LOL

#47, #48
Its sometimes a topsy-turvy world in a liberal democracy. If your mother advises you about it, and leaves you in no doubt about some of the real consequences for you and others close to you, bad bad, its straight-out indoctrination to be rejected out of hand. However, if a great liberal democracy decides to invest taxpayer dollars in school programs where your teachers are paid to preach abstinence to you, thats quite alright. If a huge number of voters feel strongly that government-funded faith-based programs ought to teach `values` after school, wonderful. Also if some big shots try to look good in an election year by making a public show of persuading media moghuls to refrain from leading young people astray through popular culture, thats also just the greatness of the great liberal democracy. But your mom or dad or community or traditional religion/culture influencing you on the matter of your `free choice` as well, unh unh, soooo uncool.

Also, apparently, its kosher to care a whole lot about what your prospective mate looks like or wears including tattoos :-) or what common interests you share or the music you both listen to, even often what car he/she drives, but wondering about his/her previous sexual history, no no thats crossing the line.

Its sometimes a topsy-turvy world :-).

Sadhana

RE: Sadna #57

I just got crushed, squished, and splatted under your topsy turvey world. The logic that you usually use is beyond the reaches of my feable mind. Anyway you are entitled to your opinion-For me I think it will take a day or two to sink in.

PS. Plz ignore the harsh tone in this reply, not deliberately intended-I think I have been a li`l bit hard on you lately.

Dukhtay/tee * * *, ristay/tee * * * ko RaKhShee ka salaam...

RE: Kestion answer session on Suhaag raat

I think the first follow up question was nicely advertised in the classic filum Sholay:

kitnay aadmee thay woooh??

Dear Ms A Bismil

I would not be happy. Not because I think that she is ``evil`` or ``bad`` because she had premarital sex, but because I know that she knew that virginity is an issue in a Pakistani marriage. She (presumably) had an opportunity to convey this piece of information to me _before_ the signing of marriage documents, yet she did not. This implies that she intentionally and willfully cheated me as a first act of marriage. A relationship that begins with lying and cheating is rarely a fulfilling one for either party.

hth

DQ

One would hope he would know his bride before the wedding night and make his decision then. In this day and age I would expect my wife to maintain the same standards and sense of morality as I do. In other words, if I`m not a virgin, I wouldn`t hold her to a double standard.

After reading all the interacts, I`d like to clarify some points.

1) The gist of my message was that women should NOT base decisions about their body upon cultural standards, but to use their own common sense.

My personal common sense is to abstain until I find the right person. If that means waiting, so be it. I`d rather have it mean something other than just a thrill seeking adventure. We have bunjee jumping for that.

2) Some interactors believe that my message seems too contrived. WEll, the fact of the matter is, I said what I felt. Maybe I am simple minded. I`ve used my personal experiences and values to make the decision.

You all have raised very interesting points. I wish I could reply individually, but there are only 24 hours in one day, and too much work to do.

sadna #57

Sadhana,

What a wonderful post! Thoroughly enjoyed it! :) very desi, with a scent of Hindustani/Pakistani mitti approach to dissecting the issue at hand :)
Simple, and yet very practical and brilliant.

I thought only my mother talks like that :) Except for your comment about the sexual history, the rest is indistinguishable from what my mother talks about all the time. :)(i hope you are not offended, i mean it as a compliment)

accha yar theek hai, ammi nay sab khuch bataya tha aur acchi tarah samjha diya tha keh kya theek hai aur kya ghalat hai.. terms like liberal democracy waghira tu apan show marnay kay liya use kartay hain… :) ab yay baat bus apnay tak hi rakhan … theek hai? :)

In principal, I concur with you 100%. It sometimes, really, is a topsy-turvy world :-).

fairdinkum #63

Thanks for your words, kind or unkind :-). You make very good points, don`t mind my going off on a tangent to blow off steam :-).

I just haven`t been able to understand how when one`s life choices are based on matching exactly what one`s peers do, or what one`s favorite pop idol does, down to dressing, it is considered to constitute a liberal outlook of independence and free choice.

Sadhana

RE: Fairdinkum #63

Jesus! God! Allah! Russel!
Get a grip-for cryin` out loud.

What if the bride is not virgin because she was raped in past ?????

how many men will understand, and belive it?

{Too many interesting articles and responses on chowk and here i am sitting with my dumb code, trying to make some sense out of it :( }

In-laws...what if they find out...that typical, ``kal-moonhi, pehley se hi moonh kala kar ke aayi thee iss ghar mein.Hai... mere chand jaisey betey ki zindagi barbad kar di iss chudail ney``.

And how does one get her mother-in-law to understand that it is okay nowadays to indulge oneself now and then before marriage?

The guy, it would be HIS fault. He should have asked the girl much earlier than wait for the curtain to rise on the wedding night.

Is pre-marital sex a matter of choice or a matter of opportunity?

Whatever the girl`s compulsions, these issues should have been brought much earlier. And on the wedding night, she would only be naive to expect a ``no problem smile`` from her hubby.

The situation in the article sounded more like jeetendra`s movie. I could actually imagine jaya prada as the bride.

In reality, i actually dread such a situation...sincerely i don`t know how i`ll respond...what will i say..?

Tho lut gaye...lut gaye...



pullu

sadna #64

Well, if you ask me, matching exactly what one’s peers do, or what one’s favorite pop idol does, down to dressing, does not constitute a true liberal outlook of independence and free choice. In my view, all it constitutes is exchanging indoctrination (in whatever forms/varieties they exist in our culture/tradition), to something even less meaningful and hollow. This, as you rightly point out, unfortunately is the trend amongst our desi population who seem to be more interested in or fearful of (as the case may be depending on who you talk to) superficial, and sometimes unwarranted (in my view) side effects of liberal democracies/western culture than its essence and spirit responsible for delivering the real freedom of choice/liberty/social justice in western societies. deekha I can write long sentences too:)

I was thinking about your statement: “……wondering about his/her previous sexual history, no no thats crossing the line.” And some of the statements I have made in this regard :)

What would be some of the reasons relevant to our culture/people (in terms of cultural practices/norms, sociology, religious influences etc.), which may make us, feel uncomfortable about exploring/talking about the sexual history of our perspective partners?
Why would some of us want to keep our own sexual history a well-guarded secret? These are some of the questions we need to answer to develop a reasonable understanding of the issue you have raised in your above statement.

The issue you have raised in your above statement is more relevant, important, and strikes at the heart of the very issue, which the author has endeavored to explore in her piece (in a rather crude manner, I must say)....

urstruly,

hmmm, accha theek hai yar..ab khatum...

fairdinkum #68
My statement about independence and free choice and my earlier post #57 related solely to `` my opinion`` about the choices of American/American-born teenagers/young people generally. It may hold true among desis?

Re` history, I didnot mean in the sense of discussing or revealing, I meant as in `facets` of a person`s life. Without trying to pronounce judgement on these facets, I will say I think Western `liberal` societies are less realistic (almost wilfully) than desi societies wrt anticipating consequences of an individual`s actions on the individual and those around her/him.
Back to #1, I think?
Sadhana

IT`S ALL ABOUT FREEDOM STUPID!


In our senseless pursuit of individual freedom we have totally ignored those who cannot speak for themselves. I am talking about the little angels whose souls are burning as fuel in our engine of progress and freedom. Could someone please tell me if KIDDIE PORN is my right or my freedom? Or is it just a commodity that I can buy over the counter.

I wish I were dead after seeing the following site. I have not only lost my peace of mind, for good, but also my faith in humanity and god who claims to be benevolent and all.


http://www.ipass.net/

Zara Hussain #66,

Care to elaborate? ;-)

Well thats a very ineteresting and straight forward question. I have noticed the increased number of very talented female writers here on chowk recently and its good to know that at least some part of our geneartion has definite (non-tabboo) views about human sexuality.

I wouldnt go in much detail at this time, but I cant resist writing a response to this article either so here is what I would do.

I would do NOTHING AT ALL. More power to her !!!Sexuality is private part of one`s life, just like a man has his way in our society I very truly believe that a woman does too, if she choses to let someone in her life in an intimate way before she ties a knot, there`s absolutely nothing wrong with it at all. Every human being male and females alike should have full control over their spiritual, sexual and mental growth and learning.

Just be aware of the selfish ones and enjoy !!!

Zehra Rizvi ......

My comments were anything but hypocritical.

When I mentioned *pressure *, I was explaining the general perspective. When I mentioned *sin * I was explaining religious perspective; which is also pesonal.

I don`t see how people`s perception of an act could, in any way, be remotely associated with my perception of an issue!

Hence, outside the realms of *hypocritical *.

Zara,

Read Interaction #13 for your question.

Yours,

Mansoor Faridi.

Tauba-Astaghfaar!

``What`s virginity it`s a major issue on a simple tissue`` this statement resonates in my mind as I sit here and read your article A.Bismil.

I heard this statement as a teenager growing up in lahore at a local college called L.C.A.S. and it was mentioned to me by a girl, I was surprised to hear this coming from a paki girl, but it was hilarious never the less, but the implications of this statment are not.

Virginity,honor, shame are all connected together

in web so powerful that, very few dare to break out of it, but as virginity on decline in an Islamic Pakistan and sexual experimentation on the rise, I am a bit skeptical how many of the goody two shoe girls haven`t done the been there done it routine, this might seem a bit harsh to some of the readers, but it`s true!

media has effected the morality of the young generation amazingly, soical values have changed to, plus women play a wider roe in the social strata of present day Pakistan.

I believe in female empowerment, it`s a good thing and I am not going to question, what ppl choose to do for personal sexual or non-sexual gratificaton.

I am not going going to play the religious card either, since I don`t consider my self to be a Islamic scholar neither do I impose Islam on others, religion is a private affair.

Coming back to the point though, the writer has asked what would the reader a male would do incase, he finds out on his wedding night that she is not the pristine virgin goddess that he aspired to marry, but somebody who has lost something to which our society put`s a lot of emphasis.

I can`t speak for other`s, but in my case, it all depends on a number of factors, we all make mistakes big, small etc.

Circumstances in which we commit such acts, and is there a certain degree of regret associated with it, I would have a problem if my wife has slept with the whole cricket team and she does it without thinking about the social consequnces then

offcourse, that`s the beginning of the end right there, but if she has had a random incident where she did it because she was madly in love with somebody and her love for this man took the better part of her judgment, and she regrets and agrees to be faithful with me than who am I to judge to her, because to reject her would be to brand her as a ``Bad Girl`` the social consquences of ditching a girl on her wedding night are horrific and I strognly believe no parent or woman should be put through it.

I will give her the benefit of the doubt and from that day on never repeat the incident, it would be like nightmare fogotten, and if all works out then live happily ever after.

After all, God is the final judge of all our acts, none of us could claim to be angels so why play God and give judgement on others, accept ppl with there imperfections, if they are worth it.

One final word, hymen can also break because vigours atheltic activity, like if you are runner or something, so just to assume it and think your wife is unpure without giving her a chance to explain herself would be so chauvinistic, I mean so many more men do it then woman and get away with it just cause they are ``MEN`` is so unfair and

based on double standards.

I am a first time interactor own CHOWK, I love reading the articles on it, I just had to write an answer for this one, I found it to be really thought provoking, I think most ppl can relate with it in one way or the other :)

PakWolf

Welcome to Chowk...

I have a lot of friends/acquaintances from LCAS...

maybe you know them... Saif,Yusuf,Fahad Siddiqui etc ?

Yasser

I can only comment retrospectively as I have been married for 10+ years. It would not matter. After 10 years of regular sex with my wife, there are more important things. Sex is still interesting but now it is no longer a top priority.

A. Bismal

I really enjoyed reading your article the way you described your mother`s conversation.

You will not sleep with a man before marriage due to insecurity and emotional hang ups etc, and not because of the conviction that it is culturally

and religiously wrong. Am i right?

Ans. to your Q. Let God be her Judge and not me.

If my good spirit dominates the devil one, i will

treat her nice, and be a better person. If i make

God`s creation happy, i believe God be happy with

me.

Regards,

Pigeon

what would you do if your blushing bride told you she wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night?

most of guys who have a problem with that themselves are not virgins. so why should it bother them?

PS virgins are not good lovers.

I`d like to ask the men reading: what would you do if your blushing bride told you she wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night?

Hi!

I just read your article and feel that there is no one easy answer to your question.Please do not generalise about men.You seem to hve forgotten that men are human beings and can feel differently towards a particular issue.

Best Regards,

Raj.

I would find the answers to this question a lot more interesting:

What would you do if your blushing bride revealed on your wedding night that she was actually a man?

A. Bismil!

What an absurd question.

You are talking of arranged marriage in our culture. What criteria do you want to apply?

In Western culture these things are known beforehand and virginity is a black spot on your personality.

If I know, I would like to know if you intend to continue your behaviour or enough is enough and now will stick to me.

Why would I marry you in arranged marriage knowing you are same as rest of so called western sluts. Or even why would I marry if there are lots of people like you in the street.

If it is a rebellion on your part, you are most welcome to sleep with me, but not in a marriage bond.

As far as Bina`s question. It is a valid one. The only problem is, can woman take a decision.

But it is probably true that in our culture neither a woman likes such man, nor a man likes such woman.

Bina #83

``What would you do if your blushing bride revealed on your wedding night that she was actually a man?``

LOL!

or a she-male.... LOL :)

What would you do if your blushing bride revealed on your wedding

night that she was actually a man?

Yeh tay lainay kay dainay parh gayey

I have this simple rule to follow.

virgin for a virgin

non-virgin for a non-virgin.

If I am a non-virgin then i dont have any right to ask my bride to be a virgin but if am a virgin and get a non-virgin wife...i will have to forgive her provided she abstains from extra-marital in the future. Can`t send her back to home.

re#84: krashid

Gross generalizations. you`re not seriously suggesting that every woman who has indulged in premarital sex is a `slut` are you ? Exactly how do you define the word anyway ? More than one sexual partner equals ... ? Premarital sex equals ... ? Not living up to your expectations equals ... ?

cheers

dL

the thing about the past, is that there isn`t a damn thing that you can do about it. so as a guy, if mu blushing new bride told me that she wasn`t a virgin i really really hope that i would act in a mature manner, and explain to her that it doesn`t really matter, because her past isn`t what i`m concerned with, but rather the present and the future..

Could you guys please not use the phrase ``Blushing Bride``. Why would a bride be blushing if she had already `been there, done that`-I think the proper phrase should be ``blushing groom`` (in this case)?

Another thing that is really annoying is that the reference in this question, that author asked, is only being made to females (bride) only. Males should be subject to the same rigorous standards.

If anyone`s still interested I`d like to pose the following question to the ladies:

If your ``blushing`` groom confessed he wasn`t a virgin on your wedding night would you?

a) Spit on his face and go home to momma.

b) Feel insecure and ask lots of questions

about ``her,`` or ``them.``

c) Tell him to wait, and go have sex with someone

so that you both are even.

d) Cry

e) Confess your own sins

f) Feel distrustful and wonder if he has Herpes.

g) Pull out a gun and kill him

h) Pull out a gun and kill yourself

RE: Abysmal #91

If I were that bride then I would win my hubby`s heart by forgiving him but I would never tell him that I also used to sleep with his best friend.

PS. and I will try to fake a blush too

dl#93

The question is why do you want to start a new career by telling your groom on wedding night?

I don`t think groom will be happy.

Moreover, somethings are presupposed and any deviation from it creates frustration.

Now what will be appropriate time for discovery, is upto the couple and their understanding with each other over time.

I don`t know why 5 years old mind are allowed to discuss God in a pompous manner?

urstruly,

Do you speak from experience? Did or did your wife (or girlfriend) not sleep with your best friend?

It`s time to lay down your defenses and lay your cards out on the table. How did you feel?

I am reminded of an old Pakistani flick called Saheli.