Aap Amrika Main Hotay Hain?? (Do You Live In America)

Fairdinkdum,

Would you please stop bloody writing everything in Urdu. It is infuriating, slow and you can`t spell anything properly. Don`t get me wrong, I love Urdu, it`s a gorgeous language but it`s getting on my nerves.

Dear PM,

This follows from my last reply. If I may be so bold to ask; have you ever tried to do something that would benefit someone else? If yes, did you succeed, if not why not?

Thank you.

Omar Phoenix

Dear PM #149,

Perhaps one of the problems regarding, ‘rolling up your sleeves’ phenomena is that many people of our generation don’t exactly know where to start from or what to do. There are so many problems in Pakistan that one person cannot simply sort everything out and very many Pakistanis expect the person to be a super hero/heroin, a Mohammed, a Jinnah, a Jesus, someone who will flush out the crap after which the whole population will automatically make themselves better. Is it also possible that we are expecting the person who wants to get down to the nitty gritty to act in a certain way that would please us or let us know that he was doing a lot for the nation, while we simply watch him/her.

Everybody has their own talents and the artists amongst us, for example should not conform to writing politics and neither should the writers conform to writing music. Each individual is given a certain amount of resources and to ‘get the ball of progress rolling’, everyone must simply do the best they can as opposed to engaging in ugly competition and doing something they don’t want to do as so many of our parent generation people have brain-washed us into doing.

Take care

Omar Phoenix

A pakistani remembers from childhood, from nation of today,

Propaganda

Long time ago, when I was a primary school student in a village, I heard a story of a grownup Hindu beating up a Muslim school boy and at the same time crying bachao, bachao, (help). When questioned about this outburst he told the crowd that the boy had insulted him by calling him names and he had to beat him up to teach him a lesson. When asked why was he crying for the help when he had the boy in his grips, his answer was that ``in eight to 10 years the boy will grow up and will be strong enough to take revenge``. He wanted the crowd to be a witness and come to his aid in such an eventuality. The crowd (mostly Muslims) considering the matter as a routine Hindu-Muslim prank hardly took any notice.

Thinking it over, now it is quite obvious that this incidence also depicts the deceit, propaganda tactics and foresightedness as ingrown traits of the generations of Hindus, now coming on the scene.-LT-COL. (RETD) SYED LAMAAT AHMED, Islamabad, October 31.

///This story is as good as K for kafir, and B for beard. It is that memory, the values that contained in the story that made Mr Sayed a military man.

Sadhna #151

Your points are well taken.

There are NOT 700,000 Indian personnel to kill in custody, raping and (incidently killing Hindus for political reasons) in Kashmir.

There is NOT 30,000 deaths of Kashmiris in last 10 years.

There was NO demolition of Babri Mosque.

There was NO Bombay riots in which thousands of Muslims were killed.

There was NOT killing of thousands of Sikhs in the wake of Indira Gandhi murder.

There is NO killing of lower caste Hindus in Bihar.

Thousands of people DON`t die and hundreds of thousands DON``T become homeless in floods with a regularity.

Millions DON`T sleep on footpath and go hungry.

So anybody who has any conscience and some respect for democracy and secularism, please don`t spread lies and stop India bashing. Because all the information I have given is true and rest is false.

And Sadhna honey. Should we go on Calcutta redlight area or Bombay footpath for our honeymoon.

sadna #151

“After all if individuals do well for themselves, society does well, too?”

HOW are individuals doing well is the key question… if at the expense of majority (by directly or indirectly denying access to opportunities)…nop!… society would not do well – same pie, unequal distribution….if everyone is getting a “fair go” (i.e. it’s an egalitarian society) and some individuals are doing well as a result, yep!…..society would do well…..because they are “genuinely” contributing in making a bigger pie.

“Re Pakistan, the lack of a stable political system must make it all the more frustrating. Young people instead of having a place in the scheme of things at least as a voting demographic, have to `seize the initiative`(whatever that means), a very difficult thing to do. `Jihadis` at least have guns and mullahs to back them.”

In few words, you have skillfully sketched the picture of what most young people in Pakistan have to deal with…

India bashing, Pakistan bashing, silly wars, stupid intelligence/counter intelligence activities, heinous tit for tat terrorist activities, childish claims of cultural/moral/racial superiority etc. etc… are all counterproductive and stupid… but some individuals do very well because of all this…. and we wait for their wealth to trickle down to us :)

PM #149
I think you are being too harsh. Many young Indians seek a better life in the West, too and many back home have a plush lifestyle. Many are as passive/self-interested/indifferent. After all if individuals do well for themselves, society does well, too? Many other young Indians, inspite of their huge numbers are quite disconnected or powerless, even in the matter of their own livelihood. I`m sure there will be some price to pay in future for this.

Re Pakistan, the lack of a stable political system must make it all the more frustrating. Young people instead of having a place in the scheme of things at least as a voting demographic, have to `seize the initiative`(whatever that means), a very difficult thing to do. `Jihadis` at least have guns and mullahs to back them.

My post was intended only to point out that India-bashing is counterproductive after a logical point.

Sadhana

dear fairdinkum, (re.#140)

``Also, it perplexes me that we are entering 21st century, and yet major religions of the world have not been able to figure out that the way forward is not in comforting their followers with promises of superiority over other religions/cultures ... but by having dialogue with all other religions and coming to an understanding, so that the real purpose of religion in a society i.e. satisfying the spiritual needs of human beings can be fulfilled.``

Surely, you are being a tad incognizant of the recent efforts by leaders of some major religions to build bridges and expand their understanding of others``. Though the Catholic Church doesn`t go nearly as far as I`d like, credit must be given them for their own `glasnot`. Christian theologians and writers are delving deep into Eastern mysticism, even entertaining notions of polytheism.

There is a similar Religious renaissance in Shia Iran, isn`t there?

If we are witnessing a particularly accentuated rise of obscurantism and religious intolerance, is has, at least in part, to do with people`s intuitive experience that the Old World Order, whatever it`s shortcomings, is threatened by a new one that runs at the `speed of the Internet` but is lacking in that thing referred to as `soul`. And the perception becomes the reality here, in a self-fulfilling prophetic way.

``Does this make any sense? Or do you think I am going crazy :)``

Well, what say we start a Crayy Chowkwallay Club? We`d be the first two inductees.

Like that self-setyled philosopher Seal put it ``No, we`re never gonna survive... Unless we`re a little crazy...``

:)

regards,

P

re. fairdinkum, sadna,

You are right in noting that there is no dearth of intelligent, talented Pakistanis around, as evinced by the chowk`s interacts. However, intellegence, talent, and even good intentions do not a leader/change-agent make. What is pitifuly lacking in the class you identify is the willingness to roll up their sleeves, get down in the dirt, work for change in Pakistan. 7 out of 10 high-minded interactors here are settled or plan to settle in the West, and 2 out ofthe remaining three are in Pakistan because they actually enjoy a higher standard of living there -- what with 3 ayahs, 2 cooks and two drivers at their beck and call.

Those with the wherewithal to effect some change are either too self-interested, indifferent or passive to do anything practical. Spouting eloquence and nationalistic rhetoric seem to supplant the need for real public duty.

The reality is that too many Pakistanis have lost all faith in Pakistan, or in their own ability to bring about any change.

Is it any wonder then that Pakistan seems to careen toward obscuratism and anarchy?

sadhana,
accha phir theek hai :) lakin aap ka government school hindi medium nahi hoo ga.

fairdinkum #145

More than literal ``Ivy-leaguers``. I mean `modern-broad-based-`liberally`-educated`, which may include government-educated, you tell me. Please note, the government would have likely have spent a lot of money subsidising such a modern education. Pl. reread my post with this clarification.

Sadhana
PS: I`m myself `government-educated`.

RE: tahmed # 128

[``And I of course pray that ali1 never gets the bubonic plague himself, although he seems to find it quite funny.``]

What I find ``quite funny`` is the way in which some middle aged Pakistani males become so affable when dealing with this person with the handle ``Sadna``. One of them wrote:

[``The important things I think we both agree upon: that we need to fight violence and hate-mongering of any kind....``] shooo schweet and shooo cute... ``Pass me the sugar honey buns``

Maybe Jay should change his handle to ``Jaya``? From Jay to Jaya, hate monger to honey buns....Jay?

sadhana,

I strongly disagree with you :)

yay kya baat hoowi? kya ivy leaguer hoona koi criteria hai accha insaan hoonay ka? kya ham jaisay government schools main zameen par baith kar parhnay walay loog kissi khatay main nahi hain? :( pata hai zayada tar pakistani ivy leaguers Pakistani elites kay bacchay hootay hain.. woo hi joo hamain sikhatay hain keh indian dushmani bohat acchi hai.. phir unn kay bacchay bhi jab pakistan wapas aatay hain tu wohi policy chalatay hain.. kooshish tu ham loog kartay hain keh status quo koo challange karyn... accha choro yar..phir khabi...

tahmed321 #138

Look at it this way, Pakistan has many talented world-class-educated young people, large numbers of Ivy-leaguers going by the posters on this site, as good as any from anywhere in the world. Am I wrong? These young people may be in huge numbers, a product of the large amounts of money spent on modern education in Pakistan and their existence should bode well for a country`s future. However, as a dynamic in their country`s affairs, they are almost invisible, am I wrong? The less-liberally-educated seem to control the dynamics of society or at least perceptions. Basically whether in real terms of power, or in terms of image, the madarassah-educated seem to be coming out better than Ivy-leaguers. A handful of bigots full of hatred are seeming to define national agendas and at least on this count defeating those blessed with the best education in the world, how can that be?

Its a Hindu custom to pray to a god named `remover of obstacles` before beginning any endeavour(the same one who has a rat as a vehicle). It seems to me that when many young Pakistanis first set out to construct a world view, they must first pay their respects to a hatred of India. According to me its costing too much to keep paying this hatred-tax every step of the way, it leads to frittering away of creativity, intellect and effectiveness leading to what I mention above.

As I said in my post #110, maybe many donot have real stakes in the situation to really think things through. Just a simple example : I read a letter to a Pakistani newspaper about how India should declare itself a Hindu country and stop pretending to be secular. Now anyone not totally blinded by hatred would realise that Pakistan is actually safer while India `pretends` to be secular than when it it ceases to pretend, so its more worthwhile to be exercised on some other account than India`s `pretensions` in this regard.

Sadhana

tahmed321

Did I mention race? or disputes?

fairdinkim #140 I think we need to stop thinking in terms of religion and race and start thinking in terms of, to coin a phrase, ``civilization index``. Here are a few quick thoughts on what this index could be:

1. Do you settle disputes through a agreed and predefined process or through other means including force?

2. Do you disagree without being disagreeable?

... (maybe more of this later, and maybe someone else like my good friend sadna can add something or comment. I have got to go)