A Different Story

Iqbal Kasim

You are right to the point the Pakistan has walked to far to the edge and is doomed, but i don`t think Pakistan will be cease to exist as a functioning nation for ever. The momentum of the current situation will cause Pakistan as a nation to implode, and at that time the common people break-off their shakels and take the revenge on the military, the landlords, the politicians, the mullah, the jehadist, the islamist, the ummahnist, and mohammedian decendants who have been sapping the nation breath since its birth.

Pakistan is in the its current situation because people in the past wrongly believed that only some incremental changes were needed to solve their national problems, and people at present wrongly feel that drastic changes can solve national problems, but time for drastic changes was in the past and right now only ruthless bloodletting may help. Every thing must go. Pakistan as a nation will go past the abyss and once there, after a complete annilation of the current system will emerge where religion or the military would not even dare cast its ugly shadow.

Or I could be completely wrong and Pakistan will lingre around for the next 200 years like another Afganistan. You can never underestimate the stupidity of people.

BJP in 1984 won 2 seats in Lok Sabha, and Ylh, the child sensation, at the age of 2 or 3 was routing for them.

Shankar @181:

[It seems that almost every political article on Chowk is being reduced to this sort of nonsense. ]

Not every `poilitical` article. but every `Kashmir` article. and it is inevitable, because almost each one of us has reached our wit`s end there.

posting this `urging` and advice rendering messages are good to make you feel great and important but please care to look at your own contribution on this board. first you have said something totally disjoint and then you have gone to repeat your standard line on kashmir (which you have already posted n times and will be posting x more times in future). now you have come back with your gems of advice. more sensible thing might be trying to DO something to keep the direction of the discussion focussed. anything. ever seen the way bilalji doing it on his board ? have you tried anything here ?

[Let us all take a break & reflect on what the 2 Ahmads (Bilal & t-321) are imploring us to do.]

read the very first post by professor on this board ?. the respected professor shows himself as a potential mudslinger in his own way. and i can fish out a mudslinger by t-321 from elsewhere.

fact is, whether a fiery mudslinger or a fantastic interactor, the matter is the same on a kashmir board. only the packaging is different.

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2000-daily/03-11-2000/oped/o4.htm

Hating and aping India

I`m sorry, ylh, this is simply false :

Maybe there is a lot of truth in what a writer stated ... ``in 1919 when Jinnah was still trying to weave the dream of Hindu Muslim unity, Gandhi was proclaiming that Hindus will even by the force of sword make the Musulmans and christians give up cow slaughter.`` Reference to the cow slaughter statement by Gandhi jee, Bolitho : Jinnah)``

This comes from relying too much on Bolitho.

In tune with all else that Mahatma Gandhi has written and said, he would have asked Hindus who wanted to protect the cow to offer their necks to the Musalmans`s swords; and somehow Bolitho (or you) have mangled this beyond recognition.

Here is some more on Gandhi`s stance :

``Today Rajendra Babu informed me that he had received some fifty-thousand postcards, 20-30 thousand telegrams urging prohibition of cow-slaughter by law. In this connection I have spoken to you before also. After all why are so many letters and telegrams sent to me. They have not served any purpose. No law prohibiting cow-slaughter [in] India can be enacted. How can I impose my will upon a person who does not wish voluntarily to abandon cow- slaughter India does not belong exclusively to the Hindu. Muslims, Parsees, Christians also live here. The claim of the Hindus that India has become the land of the Hindus is totally incorrect. This land belongs to all who live here......`

-arun gupta

Macgupta:

Thanks for the link to the Indus Waters Treaty site - it was quite interesting. Unless I missed something, I agree with that definition of a mediator i.e. one who makes recommendations and tries to speed the dialogue to reach a resolution that is acceptable (keyword) to all parties.

Concerned:

Let me try to get this straight for you, Pakistanis felt safer after they conducted their tests - the entire region did not feel safer after the Pakistani tests, particularly the Indians. Whether the entire region is safer now or not depends on the situation now, not what happened two years ago. If the situation gets exacerbated, having Nuclear weapons might be more dangerous than just having conventional weapons (widespread death). However, nuclear weapons may also serve as a deterrent in that people may shy away from a more widespread conflict fearing the use of these arms. It depends on the situation at hand and the cool to hot headedness ratio. I know this is not the black and white answer you were looking for, but some things are not that straightforward.

Everyone:

My opinion is that the Kashmiris, the Indian govt. and Pakistani govt. need to talk to resolve the core issue. Having a mediator will ensure that lack of sincerity etc. are in check by a third party.

Whats good is that the Indian govt. agrees to talks with Pakistan, but only when the attacks against the security forces are halted. One of the major groups fighting the Indian occupation called for a ceasefire, the Indian govt. welcomed it. When the time came for talks India refused to talk to Pakistan, saying that they were only interested in talking to the Kashmiri group. The Kashmiri group ended its ceasefire. India now says it will talk to Pakistan when the fighting stops.

I hope this Indian govt. stand/behaviour makes sense to some Indian out there who can explain it to me. To those who think India can negotiate with the Kashmiris to reach a solution without Pakistan, I think the above example shows clearly enough that this is not possible in the current situation.

Peace.

sb and Assad_K(from another board)
If you havenot seen this already:
http://www.indiaserver.com/frontline/17200800.htm
Contours of militancy
AG Noorani

sb(from another board)
If you havenot seen this already:
http://www.indiaserver.com/frontline/17200800.htm
Contours of militancy
AG Noorani

RE: Ras #110

I think the crucial point is not WHETHER the Indian government will negotiate or not with the Kashmiris, but WHEN it will start doing so. It is my feeling that India is waiting for the moment when battle-fatigue sets in among the populace and the militants` back is broken, because then it can negotiate the best deal for itself. Hence the continuing military operations. However if you note, the government is also offering local elections to the populace: a sign of what they could have once peace is restored. This is the classic carrot-and-stick policy.

What is interesting is how Pakistan figures in the situation. As its own position (political, economical, international) has weakened, its role in India`s choice set of preferred solutions has declined. Before Kargil it was considered an essential factor in any solution. Now I think the Indian government feels that it can go around it, and deal directly with the Kashmiris.

It is my feeling that a solution to India`s Kashmir problem is just round the corner. But this is not the same as saying that Pakistan`s problem with Indian Kashmir is going to be resolved any more than it already is.

-narain

shankar #181,

good point

RE: YLH # 156

[``The cow slaughter quote is from the year 1918... ``]

You have kicked the (puny) Indoo (vegetarian) butt very well so far. However, you must realize the depth of their feeling for THE COW. The Indoos call it ``gao mata``, the cow mother; drink its urine directly or add it to their daal bhaaji like a sauce. Although rats, snakes and other animals are gods too for the Indoos, none is as exalted as the cow. SO I suggest that you be respectful when discussing the cow.

sincerely

My point was that there were cultural and linguistic differences also.

I remember routing for BJP in the very first election they won because they seemed good to me.

However I have been forced to rethink my stance.

Akash @171:

[...the press repeatedly reported Pakistan`s mangoes exports at US$698 million, whereas the figure is around US$6.98 million....]

the free and vibrant paki press ? the decimal point is an insignificant of their math, you see. of course, they are hardcore professionals in body count you know. ask them what was yesterday`s casualty score at ``IHK``, they`d would tell it precisely even in their sleep. but alas, it doesn`t involve a decimal point you know...

[I hope someone will come forward and give the correct data.]

Ha, what you think is the job of all those big daddies in IMF and WB ?

Ras siddiqui #110:

[...``What you guys fail to see is that people like myself are more than reasonable when issues like Kashmir come up...``]

everybody is more than reasonable in his/her own mind.

[...``But it is India that has been the unreasonable party in this conflict thus far...``]

only pakistan seems to think so, not the rest of the world.

[...``I have used my own name during these discussions and still do because I genuinely do not hate people for their religion or nationality...``]

not using one`s own name doesn`t imply that the person hates people for their religion or nationality.

[...``the outside world is sensing some potential loss of their investment in the area...``]

how is that consistent with the following statement of yours made just a few lines before?

[...``maybe the world doesn`t care if a few million brown people die...``]

and finally,

[...``because we are not fools here and will chew off all wishful thinking...``]

good to know that, ras. we`ll be careful then. ;O)

Off topic...with apologies to Feroz.

Something to think about for supporters of Israel!

Israel guilty of war crimes: Amnesty

``LONDON, Nov 1: In a scathing criticism of Israel, the Amnesty International on Wednesday cited what it called ``a pattern of gross human rights violations that may well amount to war crimes`` since the Palestinian uprising began at the end of September.``

Rest at http://www.dawn.com/2000/11/02/top16.htm

karakoram,

[...``pakistani tests made the subcontinent safer...``]

either the subcontinent is safer or it is a `nuclear flashpoint`. pick one and tell that to the world. don`t do both.