A Different Story

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The Indo-Pak conflict over Kashmir has come to a very critical stage. It is high time that we cure the disease rather than its symptoms. The fact goes like this. Immediately after independence, India was on a mission to unite the kingdom states.Kashmir had an amusing situation.It was a muslim dominated state, but the king was a hindu.Then came the war and as most point out though the king was not interested to be in India,but under the circumstances he had no option but to accede to India as he needed Army immediately to contain Pak troop. It is the religion which makes the strongest bond.The majority of muslims of Kashmir naturally want to go to Pak or form an independent state.Either of them favours Pakistan.The truth is that if Indian Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan, it is well and good otherwise also Pakistan is not that interested to get Indian Kashmir as it is to see Kashmir being disowned by India.So an independent Kashmir also would mean a diplomatic victory of Pak over India. Another thing to be noted that where as Pak is able to keep its portion of Kashmir peacefully, why India-owned Kashmir is boiling? Who is responsible for it?How long would it continue? Can we have a peaceful and a permanent solution to it?

I commend your cautious optimism which is not supported by the ground realities.

How `ll India/Pakistan come to terms on Kashmir.India despite all the social problems at home is making giant-strides in IT/economy.It has a democracy,not perfect,but which is acknowledged by the leading nations.So India has the financial/diplomatic clout enough to carryon illegal occupation of Kashmir and nobdy seems to botherPakistan is ruled by its army-an anathema in the world today.The army took-over because of the political/moral bankrupcy of NS and his predecessor.I do not imply that the ruler-general is a Buzurg as we all know.Since fear/terror rules the land,people tend to look the other way.In such a situation nobody takes us seriously;who will represent Pakistan?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/nov/14pok.htm
Pak accused of settling terrorists in PoK

sb #285
You ask : ``As we attribute the blame to the militants from all over, should we not, collectively, care to debate/understand the reasons for the situation taking this turn? Take measures to prevent such situations in future?``

And ``Where was the mainstream press then? (and where is it now?)``

To your first question, the answer is yes. IMO that debates have always been taking place, but by specialists and academics, not enough in the mainstream media or `public discourse`. But such discourse has not been absent either, its just that the initiative for political solutions has mainly rested with the government of the day.

I donot have a authoritative answer to your second question, either, though I do know mainstream media figures like Tavleen Singh and MJ Akbar published books on Kashmir in the mid 90s.
btw, here is a Kashmir bibliography
http://www.kashmirgroup.freeserve.co.uk/bibliography.htm

Here is some more reading material I have to read, too :-).
http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1719/17190890.htm
Article 370: Law and politics

http://www.bgu.ac.il/humphrey/seminar/article%20samaddar.htm
Governing through Peace Accords – A Democratic Inquiry

Sadhana

Krashid # 280, # 288

You have mentioned about persecution of minorities in India. I would like to mention that I am an Indian Muslim and I have never faced any discrimination in India. I grew up in South Delhi, that could have a lot to do with it. But I have met a lot of muslim`s from Mumbai, Bangalore, Bhopal who feel the same way.

This in not to say there are no anti minority riots etc. etc. in India. India is a large nation with a lot happening, not all of it is good.

I just wanted to mention there is no mass persecution of minorities in India, if there is me and a quite a few of my friends haven`t experienced it. India has a long way to go in making her minorities more comfortable. But RSS is not the only villain, there are a lot of minority organizations with a similar ideology trying to fragment Indian socity. India is secular because a large section of the Indian society wants India to be secular

You have often mentioned you are better off than your Indian relatives. I would like to mention that my grand father`s brother decided to stay back in Karachi after the partition. His grandson i.e. my cousin brother and his wife were murdered in anti shia riots in Karachi. That is not to say that shia`s are being killed in Karachi, but it does happen some times.

Regards,

Faruk

Jinnah`s grave is made of Marble .. and the real grave is underneath... so I guess it is hard to pour water on it .... however Jinnah would definitely approve!

Remember the first ever Presiding chairman of the Pakistan Constituent Assembley was a scheduled Caste member! :)

I am coming to San Jose in a week`s time .... Hope we can chat over cofee...

:)

Yasser Hamdani

Gymnosophist #264

You have not seen the grave of Jinnah, otherwise you would not write pour water on it.

You are most welcome to do ``Fatiha`` or pray for him, which is done on any grave.

What is the point in making the Ram Mandar alongwith Kaaba is beyond my comprehension. The point is that you accept the other people as they are instead of trying to create an artificial harmony. If you respect other people, your point of view will change.

Demolition of Babri mosque is just a manifestation of how much you care about the largest minority in your country rather than against Aurangzeb or Babar. They are not alive to see what you are doing to them but Muslim minority is there to feel the punch.

In response to gymnosophist (Reply # 284)
Dear Gymnosophist:

Your statement: ``As far as Babri Masjid is concerned, I am thinking of starting a subscription drive to build a Ram temple right next to the mosque at Mecca.``

Comment: Why would you like to do it? Would it be a wise move? Please explain your viewpoint more clearly.

I wonder if such kind of responses make people like krashid more angry. I am sure this is not your intent. Interfaith communication and friendship is far more complex issue than what most Chowk posts seem to suggest.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

krashid: ``But why a person should have to leave his culture and identity. A person can and should retain his culture and identity and participate in life.``

Can you be sarcastic!

Sadhana: The `Contours of Militancy` link you posted - I couldnt finish reading it till 2-3 days ago, so the delay in replying. The first few pages of the (13 pg) article was what I was writing about in an earlier mail. And towards the end Noorani says even today people do not want to believe that without the Kashmiri support, the state wouldnt have been bloody now. As we attribute the blame to the militants from all over, should we not, collectively, care to debate/understand the reasons for the situation taking this turn? Take measures to prevent such situations in future?

I Gandhi, being the shrewd politician that she was twisted around some very reasonable demands from the people and aggravated the problems, be it Punjab, Assam or Kashmir. Where was the mainstream press then? (and where is it now?) And each time a member of the Gandhi family is killed, hundreds of innocent people die on the streets. How dare, how freaking dare, Rajiv Gandhi say what he did about the `84 riots?

If I am digressing, feel free to change the course.

Ref krashid #: 280

You said {If you consider the situation in India with saffron brigade with demolition of Babri mosque, killing of thousands of Muslims, Sikhs and Christians etc. The minorities in Pakistan are living in paradize.}

I guess the fact that Muslim countries in general and Pakistan in particular are so protective of their religious minorities is supported by articles auch as ``The Hidden Hindus`` and ``Protest in New York`` on the Chowk.

Do you think on a visit to Karachi I should drink a little bit of water from a glass and pour the rest on Jinnah`s grave to prove that we Hindus are giving up the idea of non-interaction between the two religions? Do you think Jinnah would approve? How about you -- would you approve?

As far as Babri Masjid is concerned, I am thinking of starting a subscription drive to build a Ram temple right next to the mosque at Mecca. Can I get you to shell out some money for this gesture of interfaith friendship and amity? Considering that you are earning big bucks in the US, how about a $1000 contribution? Unless, of course, you can afford more.

Assad_K

This is not my discussion, but my name is coming up repeatedly here. This air of injured innocence displayed by you is really interesting. My last posts addressed to you provided you a reference which contained some arguments AGAINST my own points of view. Amazingly these posts seem to have constituted labelling you a jihadi. I will have to think twice before doing such a heinious thing again.

assadk,

[...`Isn`t it convenient that Bilal doesn`t bring up Kashmir, which entitles him to a `Bilal` response? One wonders what sadna or RSax - or you - would have to say were he to suggest India was less than kosher in that respect..
...`]

well, i thought you had been here long enough, but apparently you have not. suffice it to say, that bilal isn`t shy about suggesting `less than kosher`. you may have to go back to articles earlier this year or late last year to see that though. many, including myself, have interacted with him on the `less than kosher` aspect and i do not remember anyone calling him a `jahil jihadi`.

[...Oh, right.. you only said that since I was clarifying what seemed a murky point by krashid, I was agreeing with his worldview and suggesting jihad upon India...]

the `point` didn`t seem `murky` to me at all (based on earlier writings of krashid), and therefore, your sentence `though his remark won`t seem far off the mark if posters here are any indication` threw me off a bit. anyway...i already said that was in fun.

[..still not drinking coffee - and proud of it...]

i personally prefer tea as well - darjeeling variety. :O)

Concerned

I regard decaff as I regard anything with the world `diet` before the name.. ie `What is this cr *p?

Isn`t it convenient that Bilal doesn`t bring up Kashmir, which entitles him to a `Bilal` response? One wonders what sadna or RSax - or you - would have to say were he to suggest India was less than kosher in that respect..

[well i didn`t call you any names, did i? ]

Oh, right.. you only said that since I was clarifying what seemed a murky point by krashid, I was agreeing with his worldview and suggesting jihad upon India.. well, obviously, my error..

[i was merely pointing out that the `fascinating mindset` (`sweeping generalization` is what i understood from that) that you accused others of, is precisely what you continue to display.]

Cool.. so what did I generalize you into? And how was it inaccurate, giving your initial lumping of me into a particular mindset?

Cheers, AK

(still not drinking coffee - and proud of it)

Gymnosophist#

continuation from previous.

Considering the number of minorities i.e 3% with 2% christians (a remnant of Hindu caste system) and 1% rest of minorities, they are doing as much as their colleagues. In each Medical school class there are 3-4 Hindus in 300-400. Anybody coming in merit is admitted. It is not required of them to change their name. Like I have not met a Hindu with the name Hussain (although there might be) Murli Dhar, Ashok Kumar, Kailash, etc I don`t think are Muslim names were my colleagues. In this regard other minorities do even better like Parsis or Qadianis etc.

Also I have not seen Christian with Muslim names (All prophets are common between Muslims and Christian except Mohammed PBUH) And Yusuf Yohanna or Yunus Iftikhar etc are as much Muslim as Christian. My grand father name was Musa although he is a Muslim.

In fact minority problem at people interaction level is not a problem in Pakistan, nor in merit etc. Only Mullah try to play unsuccessfully but to the level of blasphemy law.

If you consider the situation in India with saffron brigade with demolition of Babri mosque, killing of thousands of Muslims, Sikhs and Christians etc. The minorities in Pakistan are living in paradize.

Gymnosophist#

Circular and circular logic.

Indians say creation of Pakistan is not justified. When I tell Muslims who migrated to Pakistan are doing very good. They say but you don`t want to be a Hindu in Pakistan.

I also don`t know what India is all about. Really judging by action and not rhetoric, I can judge very well what it is about.

And why should a Muslim name Ram Khan. (Although, it can be done and other unusual names are not uncommon among Muslims). But why a person should have to leave his culture and identity. A person can and should retain his culture and identity and participate in life. Only a persecuted people or people who look for short term benefit do that. See all the christian, germanized and russiaized name of jews, and you will realize what I mean. In America where they are getting some freedom, they are reverting back to their jewish names.(probably to change it later)

RSaxena #277

Is Ram Mohan the same guy who cleaned your mess on Brooklyn Bridge.

Re: gymno on krashid

Rumor has it that, ironically, Krashid has tried to pass himself off as Ram Mohan in the US several times.

assadk,

:O)

relax, take a deep breath...maybe even switch to decaff.

[...Kaff! They have? Gosh, I must have been misreading the immediate wave of `Well, you`re just another jahil jihadi` mesages that follow any such implication...]

let me say that you have been reading ONLY those messages. on chowk, most of the time, people (on either side) get a response based on how/what they write. so a bilal post gets the `bilal reply`, a sadhana post gets the `sadhana reply`, a krashid post gets the `krashid reply` and an ali1 post gets the `ali1 reply`. you can concentrate on whatever you want.

[...That`s right, I forgot that I had called you a saffron-wearing...]

well i didn`t call you any names, did i? i was merely pointing out that the `fascinating mindset` (`sweeping generalization` is what i understood from that) that you accused others of, is precisely what you continue to display.

Concerned re:272

Well, this board is almost off the front page.. such a pity!

[Yes. That was deliberate! Ain’t we allowed to have some fun? especially when you come to `defend` the great krashid?]

So your imlication is.. what? That you were being `sarcastic` in your own way (online sarcasm, lacking nonverbal cues, needs to be a lot broader to ensude that it is seen as such), or you were cheerfully misrepresenting the truth?

[You have been here long enough to know very well that many on this forum have expressed doubts over the `right`. And they have been interacted with in a far more reasonable manner than you described as...]

Kaff! They have? Gosh, I must have been misreading the immediate wave of `Well, you`re just another jahil jihadi` mesages that follow any such implication.. note how, on another board, Contemplative might have been taken seriously again had he not questioned that God (or Nehru?) given right! But heck, I guess my own jaw should have been smashed to a bloody pulp when I was a kid..

[so ain`t you displaying the same fascinating mindset that you accuse others of?]

That`s right, I forgot that I had called you a saffron-wearing, trident carrying shaven-headed chap whose aim is to wipe out every God fearing Muslim in the Valley (for a good start).

Ref krashid #: 273

You said {What mental torture Indian Muslims would be suffering I can only imagine. And why they are still looked with suspicion even after 50 years, I can judge.}

Don`t imagine or attempt to judge. Just talk to the guy who just arrived at my place of work 4 weeks ago. He is happily chatting away with his Hindu, Christian and Sikh colleagues, eating lunch together, sharing dishes, and behaving in every way as if he belonged. As indeed he does. Oh, yes; I know what you are going to say: Jinnah offered his glass of water to a Hindu after drinking from it and the Hindu wouldn`t accept it. Keep alive the memories of Jinnah!

You said {I am not worried by these self righteous people writing from the top of mountain bigoted degreed people, curiously thinking themselves as educated.}

Perhaps you should be worried about the fact that YOU are writing while having not any idea what India is about.

You said {I always thank God that I was born in Pakistan, and I should always be thankful to Jinnah for not having to live with inferiority complex laden superior people.}

Would you care to repeat your thanks after reading all the posts on Bilal Ahmad`s board on a federal structure for Pakistan?

You should give thanks that you were not born before 1971 to Bengali parents in East Pakistan. You should also thank Allah that you were born a Muslim in Pakistan rather than a Hindu. It is Thanksgiving season in the US and if you actually start counting your blessings, you will be on your knees facing Mecca and not have time to write absolute rubbish.

By the way, all of you who are raising the issue why 14% of Indians in the US are not Indian Muslims, how come I haven`t seen ONE Pakistani Hindu (mind you, not one percent) anywhere in the US? Exactly how many Hindus did you have in your medical and engineering colleges as your classmates? How come in public Pakistani Hindus have to use names like Husain or Ahmad? Do you think that Indian Muslims name their kids Ram Khan?

Asad K #270

Thanks. You don`t need to to a thing, which ANNOYS concerned and other Indians.

What mental torture Indian Muslims would be suffering I can only imagine. And why they are still looked with suspicion even after 50 years, I can judge.

I am not worried by these self righteous people writing from the top of mountain bigoted degreed people, curiously thinking themselves as educated. These NATIONALIST:-) thinking themselves as belonging to human race and a blot on humanity. Labelling people.

I always thank God that I was born in Pakistan, and I should always be thankful to Jinnah for not having to live with inferiority complex laden superior people.

assadk:

[...you jump to the conclusion that I automatically agree with all the opinions krashid has expressed over time...]

Yes. That was deliberate! Ain’t we allowed to have some fun? especially when you come to `defend` the great krashid?

[...That`s the same fascinating mindset that implies that having any doubts about Indias `right` to Kashmir...]

You have been here long enough to know very well that many on this forum have expressed doubts over the `right`. And they have been interacted with in a far more reasonable manner than you described as...

[...automatically condemns one as being a green-turbaned, long bearded, gun weilding thug whose sole aim in life is to get everyone I can living in the 7th century AD and sending everyone else to hell (personally if possible)...]

so ain`t you displaying the same fascinating mindset that you accuse others of?

[...Of course, i may well have misinterpreted krashid myself...]

if anyone can interpret krashid, it is the man himself.

This is an interesting story. Pakistan is trying to revive the Khalistan movement. They wants Sikhs to unite in anti-India fight. Royal Canadian Police have accused Pakistan for sheltering Sikhs who were accused in Air-India crash probe.

By Raja Asghar



ISLAMABAD, Nov 7 (Reuters) - The chief executive of the Pakistan-ruled part of the disputed Kashmir region on Tuesday called for a joint anti-India ``freedom struggle`` by Kashmiris and Sikhs living in the northern Indian state of Punjab.

``We have to go along together,`` Prime Minister Sultan Mahmood Chaudhry said in a speech to a group of Indian Sikhs living in Europe and now in Pakistan to visit their religious shrines.

He said followers of the Sikh faith and Kashmiris had made great sacrifices and now should unite to ``snatch freedom.``

``Now it is time to step up the movement in Kashmir and (Indian) Punjab,`` Chaudhry said in Punjabi, a language spoken in India`s Punjab state and the populous central Pakistani province of Punjab.

Muslim militant groups are engaged in a decade-old separatist revolt in Indian-ruled Kashmir. New Delhi put down a violent Sikh campaign for a separate ``Khalistan`` homeland in Punjab in the 1980s.

Chaudhry said minority communities in India had suffered, showing it was a ``Hindu dictatorship rather than the world`s largest democracy.`` He urged all minorities to ``unite in the struggle.``

Some Sikh activists who spoke on the occasion apparently shared Chaudhry`s views.

``We look forward to the day when both Kashmir and Khalistan will gain independence,`` said Sukhwinder Singh, a visitor from Britain.

``Both (Kashmiri and Sikh) nations are fighting for independence,`` said Harbinder Singh, another activist from Britain.

Some Sikhs bitterly recalled events in the Sikh campaign of the 1980s, including an Indian army assault on the holiest Sikh shrine of Golden Temple and the killing of Sikhs in New Delhi after a Sikh guard assassinated prime minister Indira Gandhi.

Sikhs had joined Hindus against Muslims in the communal massacres that accompanied the partition of the sub-continent at independence in 1947. But Chaudhry said both communities should forget ``mistakes of the past`` and unite for what he called a common cause.

He also asked Kashmiris and Sikhs living in Britain to unite to influence British elections to gain support for their causes from British members of parliament. He said Kashmiris and Sikhs together could influence results in some 75 British parliamentary constituencies.

``If that happens then (Prime Minster) Tony Blair would not say...that India should be given a permanent seat in the United Nations Security Council,`` he said about India`s desire to get that status.

India controls about 45 percent and Pakistan over a third of Kashmir, over which the two countries have fought two of their three wars since their independence from Britain in 1947. China holds the rest of the territory.

Concerned,

You`re a funny old chap/chapess. By my pointing out that I think that Gymno interpreted krashids comments wrongly you jump to the conclusion that I automatically agree with all the opinions krashid has expressed over time (and they are many!). That`s the same fascinating mindset that implies that having any doubts about Indias `right` to Kashmir, or for having any qualms about the delicacy of an interfaith marriage, automatically condemns one as being a green-turbaned, long bearded, gun weilding thug whose sole aim in life is to get everyone I can living in the 7th century AD and sending everyone else to hell (personally if possible).

Of course, i may well have misinterpreted krashid myself.. or gymno.. or both. I`m sure Gymno would let me know as soon as he read this (if he does..).

{So a `well above average` guy is one who knows that there are differences between an `average pakistani thought` and a `chowk pakistani thought`, but isn`t quite clear about what those differences are. However, he is certain that the `average indian` is a `hindoo fundoo`.}

Boy, you still have no idea what I meant, do you? Oh, well, try not to worry about it, you`ve scored another victory over another jehadi! Damn, you`re good!

Cheers, AK

Re: assadk

So a `well above average` guy is one who knows that there are differences between an `average pakistani thought` and a `chowk pakistani thought`, but isn`t quite clear about what those differences are. However, he is certain that the `average indian` is a `hindoo fundoo`. This he concludes, by agreeing with the comments of someone who is abusive to women in cyberspace and who also threatened to kill a fellow muslim for disagreeing with him not too long ago.

Who would you agree with next, assadk? The guy who said ‘Aaakkhthooo?’

:O)

TALE OF TWO COUNTRIES,

On the chowk pakistanis are a patriotic lot, every actions of their govt including support for jihadists in kashmir is reinterpreted as fight for `freedom`, devoting 40% of the budget to army is a necessity to keep the freedom, balance the threat from india so that the people can slowly slide into the abys. A country from where educated in thousands are fleeing, taking the scarce capital with them, the following is some thing that the educated can copy from the indians, stop the chatter on the chowk, just listen and learn for a change,

fron Times of india

``NEW DELHI: The India Millennium Deposit of the State Bank of India (SBI) has mopped up $5.2 billion and the collections may finally turn out to be even higher as figures from around the globe are still being collated.

According to Birendra Kumar, managing director of SBI Capital Market, the lead manager to the issue, this has surpassed all expectations. When the issue was launched on October 21, the then chairman of SBI, G G Vaidya, had envisaged the core size of the issue at only $2 billion.

The Gulf Indians are again the major contributors. They had left behind their more prosperous Silicon Valley cousins last time around when a total of $ 4.23 billion was raised through resurgent India bond (RIB). This time the issuer even did not bother to get the complicated clearances of USA regulator and decided not to market the instrument in USA. Gulf Indian have contributed over $ 2 billion in the programme.

///

RE: krashid

No, I am not from TX. Went to school there in the 80s. Anything I can do for you?

sincerely

Concerned re:263

Well, I`m inclined to discuss the concept of sarcasm here, but that would take a while.. so I`ll content myself with saying that I believe I`m well above average, and I`m not restricting myself to Pakistanis!

How about you?

Cheers, AK

Ali 1#

Are you from Texas.

Ali1: Thanks for the information. Are you sure about CS standing for Computer Sciences and not Creation Sciences at Yai Yai Oooooo........

assadk,

[...``and of course, while the Pakistani posters here are in no way representative of the majority of the average Pakistani, the Indian posters are representative of the average Indian...``]

what is an average pakistani, assadk?

numerous times, on chowk, we have been told, that the average pakistani wants peace with india and hates the jihadis. are you saying that the pakistani posters on chowk want a war with india and love the jihadis, since they do not represent the average pakistani?

are you an above average or a below average pakistani, assadk?

RE SameerJB # 261

Sameer sahib,

IIU offers BS and MS CS.

sincerely

gymnosophist (#254): c`mon gymno, get real. Who is here comparing the benefits from Islamic University with IT parks. Farangi Kush is no longer interacting.

Let me tell you about one of the well-known Islamic University. Its buildings are adjacent to Faisal Mosque in sector F-8, Islamabad. This is the choicest real estate worth around 100 crore rupees at the current price. What we have there is a big mosque, Islamic University complex and Zia-Ul-Haque`s grave. Federal government and CDA (Capital Development Authority) has let go of 100 crore rupees for what? Only people benefiting from it are Somalis, Sudaneese, Nigerians ec. who use ``lerning Islam`` as an excuse to get out of their war torn countries in addition to getting handsome stipends from the Univrsity. There are no well known teachers, scholars, former students or anything worth mentioning. Actually, 100 crore rupees put in fixed-interst money market account could generate lot more money for the students who can be sent packing with the promise of keep getting some stipend for reading Quran with translation in their home countries. This is another case of misplaced priorites resulting from TNT....from TNT to kalashnikov to RDX....

You want to talk about IT. Here is something you would laugh at. Pakistani government and Science/ Technology minister have been bragging about IT policy on war footing etc. The website of the largest province in Pakistan, Punjab has been ``temporarily`` shut down for months now. You may check it yourself at www.punjab.gov.pk/ There does not seem to be any hurry to activate it again. The server might be in use now-a-days as coffee table facing westward......

Gymnosophist re:254

There may have been a misunderstanding here.. krashid meant that to the Indians, the majority (if not all) Pakistanis are fundoo supporters.. he wasn`t saying that the majority (if not all) Indians are Hindu fundoos. His comment wouldn`t seem far off, if the posters here are any indication (and of course, while the Pakistani posters here are in no way representative of the majority of the average Pakistani, the Indian posters are representative of the average Indian..).

I`d be interested in a source where I can read up more on the land deal between Pakistan and China - any relatively references, that might be able to tell me a little about the population that went from the green-and-white to the red flag, etc?

btw, you seem a little extraordinarily prickly these days.. everything ok?

There is little doubt that Jews were persecuted in the Soviet Union; but the Jewish population there seemed to have more Ph.D. equivalents per capita than Israel, when I once looked at the statistics.

A people who may have to flee persecution or who are discriminated against in normal worklife -- as managers, workers, insurance agents,sales people, etc. -- will often seek refuge in academia or areas where high education is required, because these tend to have less bias.

-arun gupta

RSaxena#

India is only reaping the fruit of its past. With a good reputation with Arab world and third world. This are changing slowly but surely.

If you cannot see the signs with your high degree, it is your fault.

I can see it even with my Madressah training.:-)

Good to see that you do not consider crow bottom as black now. Take care to take off your dark glasses.

gymnosophist #254

I have no problem with rise of fundamentalism in India.

It is only finger pointing and its response. (Don`t throw stones from a glass house)

I am very happy with BJP and fundamentalist rule in India. With a friend like you who needs an enemy as the saying goes.

Re: Mission Kashmir (the Movie) from
The Hindustan Times today:

Off Track: Missing Kashmir
Jay Raina

Mission Kashmir is a cinematic treat in sound and fury. Five principal characters fight their individual battles against the technicolor backdrop of the Dal Lake. The moon, manipulated by high-tech gadgetry, also shines even as the ‘destroy-Kashmir’ mission gets underway to culminate in failure in typical Bollywood-style. The winners take it all amid the theatrics of love songs, battle scenes and acts of revenge and retribution.

Vidhu Vinod Chopra — the native who made it good in Bollywood — has dedicated his multi-crore extravaganza to the “Valley’s children, who over the last 10 years have grown under the shadow of guns and grenades”. He also appears to have made an effort to endow a new meaning to Kashmiriyat — essential to the people of Kashmir.

Unfortunately, in his quest to stage a please-all show, Chopra has apparently been unable to see the wood for the trees. In the process, Kashmiriyat becomes a major causality. Other prime components of this unique cultural strand fall apart in a saga of make-believe enactments that are marred by an array of amazing missing links.

In fact, the patchy story line revolves around episodes filmed amid the splendour of the Lake as if all that Kashmir is about is the Dal Lake. The beautiful countryside where Kashmiriyat has sustained itself over hundreds of years is simply swept aside.

Altaaf is a sensitive nine-year-old who paints the Valley’s meadows and the Dal Lake with shikaras laden with flowers. Joining him in this idyllic setting is the young Sufiya Parvez.

The narrative moves to a scene depicting a crossfire within the confines of a houseboat. Altaaf is witness to the horrific killings of his parents and sister at the hands of a police officer and his men. This is the first part of the mission — a tale of police brutality. The scene later shifts to the police officer’s home and depicts his wife mourning the loss of their only son. Altaaf becomes an adopted child who compensates the loss of the grieving mother.

It is only later that the orphaned lad discovers that his foster father is the killer of his entire family.

He swears revenge and executes it in a series of encounters over a period of 10 years.

Altaaf is trained and tutored by an Afghan mercenary. The war-hardened mercenary and his gang of terrorists are also on a separate mission of their own — to destroy Kashmir. Their masters are monitoring their movements from across the border. Predictably, the mercenary mission fails with Altaaf returning to his foster father and his sweetheart, the ever-smiling Sufiya.

The cinematic mission begins with high drama. But minutes into the film, it drags, courtesy song and dance routines that have nothing to do with the subject of the film except for one-liners in two musical numbers.

Chopra has intelligently tried to escape the accusations of plagiarism in lifting only the opening lines of two popular Kashmiri songs — Bambooro Bambooro and Rindh Poshmal — only to kill the core of what is Kashmir’s revered poet, Dina Nath Nadim’s creation.

The two musical renditions, although filmed against the backdrop of grandiose sets, have all the cinematic elements except for any connection to Kashmiriyat (which it supposedly depicts). Chopra also offers quick-fix solutions with a ‘forgive and forget’ message to untie the mess that Kashmir finds itself in.

He might have consciously avoided walking through the minefield of politics for justified reasons. However, a modicum of realism in unfolding the continuing Kashmir tragedy — at least in terms of its socio-cultural contours — could have justified the native connections of Mission Kashmir’s director.

Ref Ras Siddiqui #: 83

You said {Gymnophist Reply # 20: We handed over to China less people,land, sheep or goats (of any religion) then you guys did in Aksai Chin 1962. So please try and re-evaluate your posting.}

Let us get the facts clear here. India LOST the territory in war and has refused to accept any Chinese claims to the territory of Aksai Chin. Pakistan SIGNED a treaty with China handing over the land to China whereas history has recorded that the Chinese border posts were some 50 miles away from the Karakoram Pass. So, who has to do some re-evaluating here?

Ref krashid #: 245

You said {Some people in Pakistan are fundoos.

As far as India is concerned, majority of population is fundoos or fundoos supporter.}

Exactly how did you arrive at this conclusion? What is the basis?

Let me show a red rag to the Pakistani bulls here. If Pakistan is for Muslims and Hindustan is for Hindus, why is it that you are concerned about the rise of fundamentalist Hinduism in India? Because it would affect the Indian Muslims? So why don`t you offer them asylum in Pakistan? I also understand that your concerns about the rise of Islamic fundamentalism has everything to do with protecting your middle-class existence and nothing to do with minority rights in Pakistan.

By the way, while your mullahs run madrassahs where math seems to be taught as how many kalashnikovs can you buy with Rs, 10 million if each kalashnikov costs Rs 14,000, it was reported in the Indian press (back in June) that the Shankaracharya of the Kanchi Mutt was leading the efforts to build an IT software park in his headquarters town of Kanchipuram. Chew on that fact a little bit. While your Islamic universities are teaching that the US is the Great Satan and tell their students to seek their reward in heaven, our religious leaders are asking people to embrace the latest in technology and seek their fortune anywhere on earth.

Ylh @243:

[this loud fundamentalist community will one day be eradicated... there will inshallah be a fundocide (or fundoocide) in Pakistan .....]

That`s precisely what we say. the question is NOT whether they will be eradicated or not, the question is at what cost ?. make no doubt about it, they`d ensure that pakistan is pulverized before they are finished off with.

ylh@237:

[Interestingly enough in Pakistan the most persecuted community has the highest literacy rate and per capita income.]

know why ? they are the only ones that do something useful and worthwhile in pakistan...

Re: Mullah Krash-Id

``As far as India is concerned, majority of population is fundoos or fundoos supporter``

By the way, out of curiosity, were you educated beyond 10th standard at the Madrassah? Do you understand economics (other than how much Jihad will cost)? Last time I checked there was so much FDI flowing into India that it could feed all the black-as-crows Pakistani cab drivers in the US for a year. Now, if there really were so many fundoos in India, MNCs would not really be pouring so much money there, would they?? After all, risk is always part of any project`s NPV and if what you barked about India were true, risk would be high and none of the projects would pass.

Please don`t respond to this with another badboo filled mouth.

Re: ylh

``Please for God`s sake, for Bhagwan`s sake, for Allah`s sake ... and if you are christian for Christ`s sake..``

You don`t need to compel me with religion...if anything it turns me away but that`s a separate matter.

``b)this loud fundamentalist community will one day be eradicated... there will inshallah be a fundocide (or fundoocide) in Pakistan .....``

I would be just as happy as you the day that happens. India needs the money it spends guarding against them to take care of its poor

McGupta #244

I have read the link.

Although, the story presented there is of concern, but I present my few remarks.

1- It is not a news story, but a site for the defense of Dr. Shaikh.

2- It is a known fact for which he cannot be persecuted by any stretch of imagination.

So there is something more to the story, which is not given in the web site.

3- Khabrain is a newspaper, which is very much active in these kind of stories to increase its circulation and except education what other recourse is available.

4- Although Blasphemy law in some form is important, it is currently the tool to hound the opponents by police and power that be (with their natural ally Mullahs)

5 And finally from Pakistan, with all the credit card and other form of appeal, it can be a hoax to rob the people. (In Pakistan every act is suspicious except if it from Edhi).

www.dreammoods.com/exam.htm

NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 7, 2000, 1330 HRS IST: A staggering 82 per cent of the people in Kashmir support a `Hizbul Mujahideen-type ceasefire` while 70 per cent want Pakistan to stop supporting terrorism in the Valley, indicating a significant shift in Kashmiri people’s attitude towards Islamabad.

As much as 91 per cent Kashmiris say that Pakistan must be involved in the peace process while 39 per cent believe that a solution to the Kashmir problem was possible within the framework of the Indian Constitution, according to a recent survey.

In a similar survey conducted in 1995, 84 per cent of those polled had said they did not think a solution was possible within the framework of the Indian Constitution while only 14 per cent said such a solution was possible.

The survey, conducted in 32 urban and rural locations in four districts of Srinagar, Budgam, Baramulla and Anantnag (in Kashmir valley) and Kargil (Ladakh), says that 74 per cent of the people want `azadi` (independence) while 77 per cent think that the Hurriyat Conference represents the interests and aspirations of the Kashmiri people.

The opinion poll was conducted between September 20-24 by the Marketing and Development Research Associates (MDRA) for the weekly Outlook for its fifth anniversary issue.

This is the second such survey in the Valley. The first was conducted in 1995.

The Kashmir Jigsaw. Full coverage on the Kashmir tangle.

Gymnosophist #

You asked me in my context.

Compared to my relatives in India (with Lallo Prasad), our whole clan is doing much better in Pakistan.

Only a Hindu in Pakistan can tell you. They usually suffer the same way as other people of their socio-economic class and usually do as well as their counterparts. Particularly the Hindu dominant area of Umarkot has very little influence of religious parties, for religion to play any significant part. And in all political parties in Sind, Hindus are active also.

May be a Hindu from Pakistan can write better.

I agree that all is not well. But it is mostly influentials and police which takes its toll in the name of religion. These same people suppress Muslims without invoking religion.

Incidently, it is educated people who provide the gunpowder for bigotry. And common man interacting with each other is human first and human last.

Humsab #

I am well aware of multiple trends in Pakistan.

It is not necessary to read each and everything.

There are all forms of ANTI trends.

Like KalaBagh Dam is bad.

Jihadis are bad.

Fundoos should be reigned.

N.G.O`s are bad.

Dominance of Punjab is bad.

Ethnicity and anti country slogans are bad.

Whether it is Najam Sethi, or Pervez HoodBhoy or Maulana Fazlur-Rehman. No body has a positive solution except to impose their own will on everybody.

The solution are also interesting.

Fundoos should be killed.

Jihadis should be reigned.

N.G.O`s should be disbanded.

MQM and other ethnic parties should be crushed.

There are so many conflicting interests.

I will also give my solution.

But the solution should take into account all the ground realities, biases and culture of people, and principles of justice.

And no solution should embark on massive killing or suppression of any group, but rather in a manner of give and take.

Pakistani society is much more complex, than any other, so far I have seen. (USA and Iran).

There are some genuine concerns.

Like Russian invasion and transformation of Afghan culture and now resistance to foreign influence which Afghan throughout history have done. Like massive killing and suppression of Kashmiris.

Is there any solution.

With practical experience, I can say that if economic opportunities are created, lot of our problems are solved.

But apart from that. The press in Pakistan has struggled hard, and is probably one of the freest press in world. That augurs very well for Pakistan as far I am concerned.

RSaxena #

Some people in Pakistan are fundoos.

As far as India is concerned, majority of population is fundoos or fundoos supporter.

By the way the term fundoos should be dropped in favor of ``Bigots``.

There is no dearth of it in the world.

Oops !

http://secular.ws/yunis.htm

Dr. Younus Shaikh is founder-President of ‘Enlightenment’, a Pakistan based organization which is a member of the International Humanist and Ethical Union (www.iheu.org). Dr. Shaikh is a doctor and a teacher at a medical college in Islamabad. He lived and worked in the UK before returning to Pakistan.

On 4 October 2000, Dr. Shaikh was arrested by the Islamabad police and booked under the dreaded Section 295-C (Blasphemy) of the Pakistan Penal Code. The police First Information Report was not readily available, but in it he is alleged to have defiled Mohammad, the Prophet of Islam, by pointing out that the Prophet did not become a Muslim till the age of 40 (ie. until he received the first message of God), and that the Prophet`s parents were non-Muslims because they died before Islam was proposed by the Prophet.

-arun gupta

Rsaxena

Please for God`s sake, for Bhagwan`s sake, for Allah`s sake ... and if you are christian for Christ`s sake I urge you to come to Pakistan and see for yourself how many fundoos there are..... Pakistan was always seen as a Moderate Muslim Country ... and the only reason people like you have this misconception of Pakistan ... is because the Afghan war spilled in these fundamentalist Aghans and also Jamaat e Islami (the one which was against the creation of Pakistan) decided to take advantage of that.

Fundoos are the loudest people in Pakistan however because parties like the Jamaat e Islami and their student body Jamiat are the most well organized.

I assure you (though I think you would rather see a fundamentalist Pakistan)

a)that the majority of Pakistan is not fundoo

b)this loud fundamentalist community will one day be eradicated... there will inshallah be a fundocide (or fundoocide) in Pakistan .....

Pakistan Zindabad

Re: Bahmad

Thanks for the word of support, but I think that the discussion has already soured on the usual Indo-Pak rhetoric!

I have been avoiding this board for a reason!

Ciao

Perhaps people may want to help :

http://secular.ws/yunis.htm

-arun gupta

krashid

# 211

Rashid ji

Your comments on Irfan Hussain`s Column in Dawn 4th Nov. 2000 i.e. today?

Thanks

Denial.

The conclusion that seems to be surfacing is this: What constitutes ``fundoo`` behavior in other countries is mainstream and government sanctioned in Pakistan. Let`s reiterate to ensure that you (particularly the amazing krashid and ylh) understand. There are ``fundoos`` in every country -no one ever denied that - but in Pakistan a) there are more than in any other country with the exception of Afghanistan and, b) they are government supported, institutionalized and fairly powerful. And don`t give me that BS about how few votes they receive -- there is no voting in Pakistan and they have widespread support from the poor who are crawling over each other to send a son or two to become a shaheed.

Rsaxena

the course I was talking about was a 400 level course... the students were almost all FOBS .....

except two ABCDs one of which was a Pakistani....

By saying that I am a persian wannabe is the biggest lie ... why cant you just for once have a civil discussion .... and it is because you are unable to ever come up with anything relevant except twisting of words which makes me say that I won the debate... I won it because I proved the Bande Materam was from a novel which was not anti British but Anti Muslim ... to which you and your friend Viking replied in the most undignified manner!

Yasser Hamdani

some of my relatives are Qadianis ... and they are living a very happy life in Pakistan...

Interestingly enough in Pakistan the most persecuted community has the highest literacy rate and per capita income.

Yasser

PIGS AND PHOTOS,

Tibor 224 talks of a muslim not accepting a piggy bank. Recently one of my old pals, a chief engineer on a norwegian oil tanker made his first trip to Saudi arabia. He was told by the captain to remove all `other` religios symbols and photos from the cabins. He removed the rosary and the jesus pictures. He had a photo of his wife and child. The suadi officials visited his cabin, took the photo and smashed it with boots, apparently a womans photo exposing the face is unislamic. One should realise, this happening on a ship, on a short trip to the saudi.

May be this is one off incident, may be the ones with better understanding of islam and saudi can illuminate. Tibor should thank the friend, a normal reaction of the saudi variety would be to smash it on ..

Jay @213:

[No, kashmir is not the problem, it is only a symptom.]

that`s a flat bit of unadulterated truth jay. forget about the stoic pakis, you should be telling this to people like St.Shankar who believe that india will be turned into a peaceful garden of eden if we let the jehadists have their way and kashmir secedes.

kashmir or no kashmir, the lifeless bloodthirsty jehadi rats from across the border will always be swarming into our home in search of death. you are absolutely right jay, kashmir is just the symptom, the actual problem lies elsewhere.

Ref krashid #: 72

You replied {Gymnosophist#

I would like to be a Muslim in Pakistan, rather than India or Kashmir (I don`t know IO Kashmir is part of India or International dispute)

May be it is part of India when politics comes and International dispute when killing of Kashmiris goes.

AND JINNAH STANDS RIGHT AGAIN.}

The question was NOT if you would want to be a Muslim in Pakistan rather than in India.

The question was, What would you rather be: a Chakma (Buddhist) in Bangladesh, a Tibetan in China, a Nepali in Bhutan, a non-Hindu in Nepal, a Hindu in Pakistan or a Muslim in India?

I see there has been no answer to the question.

Anyway, perhaps YLH can declare himself to be a Qadiani in Pakistan and see what happens to him.

That goes for you, too.

One thing I really have to thank Jinnah for: at least most of the mad mullahs are on your side of the border.

Viking #229- #230.

I am impressed by your soberity today.:-)

In response to viking (Reply # 227)
Dear Viking:

Thanks for the reality check. I concede.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

This board rocks :-).

krashid @212:

[If I was in India, probably I would have been slaughtered in the name of democracy and secularism by people who cannot even spell it.]

Don`t worry. even if you were in pakistan, you would have been offered to be slaugtered in India in the name of jehad by the people whose only purpose in life is to breed it.

krashid @208:

[Even for your poor english krashid is to be blamed:-) ]

oh my, can`t believe it!!... for once in life, EVEN you take responsibility for something ? boy, is krashid maturing ??? oh, no!, it can`t be YOU :-)

Ylh,

No I don`t follow posts on a regular basis and don`t intend to. Regarding Hindu patrika, well I didn`t look it up and am not going to. I think we all have a fair assessment of the minority situation in Pakistan. Tell you what, Arab and Syrians in proper Israel and Golan Height also have a lot of loyalties to Israel. And that is a fact you can confirm. So I wouldn`t be surprised there is a pro-paki Hindu organization and pakis will do all to flaunt it. Now could I find you pro-Indian Kashmiri Muslim organization? Yeah...Would the views of these organizations reflect the popular sentiment? I will let you answer that.

And by the way you should not use religious fascist bigoted Canadian organization to further your arguments. The Sikh organization that you identified well let me tell you something about them. They are Sikh fundoos. They want to go back to the sixteen century, the time of Nanak. Not the type of people you should trust. They are constantly threatening everybody over religious purity. They don`t want gurdawaras using tables and chairs of langar because ``Baba Nanak didn`t use one`` but are perfectly at ease with temperature control and microphones, and have murdered people on the issue. Not the type of people you should use to support you arguments against India. Do you think they really like Muslims? Do you think they have forgotten the genocide, and I mean a really genocide where Mugal were paying good money for Sikh corpses. Do you think they forgotten that Muslims killed Guru Tek Bahadur and entombed Guru Gobind Singh`s 5 & 6 year old sons alive? Oh wait, that was Hindu baniya pundit that tricked the Muslims into all that. It is the Indian propaganda that didn`t let us learn that part of the history and that how they got the Sikh to side with Hindus and not Pakistan.

Do you know real Punjabi history and understand true feeling of Sikhs towards Muslim. I do because I lived in Punjab for 3 years. Do you understand why and who started Punjabi secessionist. Surprise surprise, Hindu Punjabis started the whole movement and most first separatist were Hindu Punjabis, but the movement was latter hijacked the Sikh fundoos. They had support of less than 50% Sikhs in Punjab and that is less than 25% of the population. Separate nation sounded all too well for English, Canadian, and American Sikhs but that was never what the overwhelming majority wanted, 75% that is. Thousand of people were killed to entertain religious patriotism of Sikhs in Birmingham, Yuba City, and Vancouver. And thousand of poor Pakistanis forced into mercenarism are dying to entertain territorial ambitions of mullahs and paki madmen. Kashmir doesn`t have as much to do with the wishes of the people because the wishes of non-Sunni Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists don`t count. Only Sunni wishes count and I suspect, actually I know, their wishes are pro-paki of expedient reasons. If you want to give people a choice, give every one and choice and not just those you agree with. You may use all the circular argument you want but they only work with people you agree with. And don`t try and insult peoples` intelligence, at least not here because most of the people are relatively smart and can easily spot a fraud. I don`t intend that you are a fraud and are trying to insult peoples intelligence but sometimes you argument are circular and deeply fraud which you fail to notice even when pointed out. No one is fallible and often only way to refine you arguments is to detect the flaws when pointed out, acknowledge them, and then refine them. This forum gives you the best opportunity and in the professional world, the ability to correct yourself is a very valuable skill.

You are welcomed to go to India, just stay away for Kashmir and tribal areas and don`t overstay you visa. There isn`t any point in giving those greedy fooks any opportunity to horde any money out of you.

ahmadb @202:

[P. S. Dear Viking (Reply # 197): In my post (Reply # 11), it was just a friendly remark. Please note that I and temporal are cyber friends and respect each other.]

easy professor, easy. :-)

think about it honestly. that was your very first post on this board. had you contributed something for the discussion and then added your ``friendly remark`` as a postscript, would it not have helped to reinforce the impression that you practice what you preach ?

Ylh

If Gandhi could have been wrong, personally I do have a few issues with him but that is besides the point, don`t you think so could have Jinnah.

Ylh

The situation is never too bad or irreparable as long as you belong to the upper echelons of the society, which I believe you are a part of. The situation is ever to bad for energetic idealistic youth because they feel they and reason with people. People are irresponsible--that is their nature. Once your start fever it`s practically impossible to contain it until it consumes itself. That is what`s happening in Pakistan. Your religious bandit and terrorist threaten India, which is a given, west and America, the ally you want to keep at all costs, on regular basis with impunity. Do you think they can be reasoned with? Do they care what the interests of the nation are? To them Islam, and I do question that because they are most likely using Islam for their personal benefits, is the objective and all the want is a place in heaven with 72 virgins. Sick little fooks.

I was just thinking about what I previously wrote, ``Pakistan will implode and emerge as a new nation where religion or military wouldn`t cast its ugly shadow.`` I was just thinking about Afghanistan and Sudan and now I`m not too sure about my previous statement.

And little kant Kardish, I`m coming to England in a little while, why don`t we meet up. We could discuss this in person without having to wait 24+ hours for a response.

And by the way kardish, we are very glad you are not a part of us. Take it as a solace or an insult, it doesn`t matter to us. You relieved us of a large amount of scum in the name of muslim brotherhood and we only wish we could send more sucm over. You could have them converted to Islam and live happily ever after. Will you take me on my proposition?

Saw one off my Paki friends yesterday. She returned me a piggybank I got her for her birthday. I thought you people just couldn`t eat pork but apparently you can`t even have a little pigs toy. I`m still flustered trying to grasp this reasonlessness.....

And yes Kardish, inbreeding has pruified the Paki genetics removing all evidence of its kafir past.

Yes Kardish there is always something to be learned from every situation. Unfortunately some people never do.

Manoj :

Perhaps Jinnah was far ahead of his time in his vision of Pakistan. It would certainly explain why we don`t understand him. Perhaps he was so far ahead that his vision has been made irrelevant by the backward march of history.

-arun gupta

IT canbring Indians and Pakistanis closer, much closer

http://news.indiainfo.com/2000/11/03/pakit.html

Indian techies to help Pak IT sector

Nov 03, 2000 18:20 Hrs (IST)

Bangalore: A group of Indian information technology (IT) entrepreneurs based in the United States said on Friday that they will set up offices in Pakistan to promote the country`s nascent IT sector.

``TiE (The IndUS entrepreneurs) (http://www.tie.org) is not concerned with political, religious and cultural issues. Entrepreneurship unites and not divides,`` Raj Popli, vice-chairman of The Indus Entrepreneurs (TiE), told reporters on the sidelines of a technology conference in Bangalore.

India and Pakistan have fought three full-scale wars since independence from Britain in 1947 and nearly came to blows again last year over the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir. But this has not phased TiE, a network of IT entrepreneurs and professionals of Indian origin based in California`s Silicon Valley.

TiE advises tech entrepreneurs on raising capital, runs businesses and fosters entrepreneurship, and counts some of the biggest names in the global IT industry among its members.

Popli said the group would open offices in the Pakistani cities of Lahore and Karachi in February 2001. The organization currently has 22 offices around the world, he added.

Pakistan recently unveiled plans to invest up to 15 billion rupees ($250 million) in the next two years to promote the tech sector, including establishing a virtual university and seven other regular universities focused on information technology.

Pakistan`s software exports are worth something in the region of $30 million to $50 million, compared with India`s annual exports of $4 billion in 1999/2000 (April- March).

ylh : Back when the Babri Masjid was still standing, the Vishva Hindu Parishad claimed that Gandhi would have supported demolition of the mosque and provided a ``quote`` to support that. The date of the journal in which that quote was supposedly published was suspect. I spent an enormous amount of time with the 100-odd volumes of the Collected Works of Gandhi trying to find that quote or any statement close to it. (Now apparently a searchable CD of the Collected Works is available, so I will do the search again). I never found it.

So, I believe I am in touch with the tenor of Gandhi`s thought. Gandhi has been voicing ideas like it is best to offer oneself in sacrifice than to kill someone (or to run away) since the early 1900s.

Anyway, it is enormously difficult to prove that somebody did not say something; it is much easier if the claim is that somebody said something on a specific occasion. Even looking in 1918-19 is hard enough.

I have been reading the Pakistani Hindu Patrika for the last six months. I`ve been reading Dawn since 1991 or so. I`ve also been a linguistic and/or cultural minority whereever I`ve lived. In any case, I am sure you know more about Pakistani minorities than I do; and if you take a look, I have rarely if ever commented on them. The exceptions are when their situation reflects on a general principle -- such as joint versus separate electorates.

So, as they say, keep your eyes on the ball.

-arun gupta

to everyone...

there`s some real crap being dished out on this board. i really didn`t want to involve my self as i am preparing for my campus interviews that are coming up in 2 weeks time....

but reading some stuff i couldn`t resist my self...(won`t take any names)

[``PS Dont make a god out of Gandhi .. he could have made mistakes.``]

similarly jinnah was human too and he could have have made mistakes too.

[``Listen just because I have a lot of school work and a concert to organize ... you are taking undue advantage``]

no one is forcing u to do anything. u are here at your own free will and can ignore all of it if u want. all indians (at least on chowk) believe in democracy.

[I think our Watan is doomed- our junoon has taken us to this jehnoom. We are losing to the Jehadis and nothing is there to stop us from sliding this abyss.]

wish more people like u could realise this...

[India now says it will talk to Pakistan when the fighting stops.]

i think thats pretty straightforward....u cannot talk peace and kill at the same time, can u?????

someone called india a hindu terrorist state...

well...if thats the case, we wouldn`t be receiving the millions of $$$ as FDI, would we???

and i don`t remember any indian being caught anywhere in the world in the recent future for any terrorist attacks.

forget that...even in hollywood, sometimes terrorists are shown as pakistanis.

devkant.

Karakoram, you notice in the Indus waters case, when India and Pakistan could not agree, the World Bank, the mediator in that case, finally imposed a solution.

-arun gupta

What the young wannabe Persian does not realize is that were it not for Gandhi (and others like him), he would be driving around a British officer in a rickshaw somewhere in India.

It`s hilarious to watch the young ylh proclaim himself the victor of ``debates`` which never took place. Who in their right mind even starts a debate with someone who thinks ``Islam and democracy and secularism are essentially in agreement`` when of all the Islamic countries in the world, maybe one comes close to resembling a democracy. And then his language challenged simpleton friend krashid gloats about something which no one can figure out.

Of course, it is even more hilarious to watch the wannabe-Persian declare himself an academic genius by claiming to have beaten some good for nothing ABCDs in Economics 101 exams in that largely mediocre undergraduate institution called Rutgers U.

Bilal, admire you for your mature responses.

But Bilal, while Gandhi is acknowledged world over for his many virtues, Jinnah sadly does not enjoy similar status.

I have tried to read balanced accounts of Jinnah. To me he comes across as a faily westerenised , tolerant and a very honest person. Who would have got a fit seeing present day Pakistan ( not that gandhi would have ben happy to see the Indian democrats!!!). While his achievement of creating a nation state is great, he could not provide an identity to Pakistan.

How could be Pakistan be cretaed on basis of religion ie an Islamic state yet give equal opputunities to minorities? How could it be called an Islamic state and yet call itself tolerant state? On what basis did he believe that a Islamic state could be a democratic state knowing the socio political composition of Pakistan or was he divorced from reality of pakistan? Why did he ask for urdu to be national language of Pakistan when majority was bengali? I think some of the lacunae( sp..) in his thinking have ben proved right over the subsequent 50 years.

Anyway, many of these points cant be conclusively proved either way.

KASHMIR TO KARGILL,

Kargill was the first combined jihadic-military operation. Ce has confirmed several times, and has been repeated by many on the chowk that no, no one in pakistan can stop the jihadists. It was only last week that the defense minister confirmed that pak military is an islamic military, pakistan being an islamic state. Now the great peace makers of chowk are convinced that a solution to kashmir is possible. No, kashmir is not the problem, it is only a symptom. Whay are the pakistanis in chechniya, why are they in the philippines. Wake up, listen to the jihadic calls.

It is a plague, spread by the carrier, TNT. Kashmir is a symptom, so is honour killing, so is blasphemy laws, so is the denial of the sacrifice of the people who fought the british. Why there is only one man, Jinnah, what happened to the others. It is the people, the mums and dads of pakistan, fueling the jihadic killings, inside and outside pakistan.

ylh #129

If you don`t mind.

Why are you wasting your energy on the species homo erectus indicum.

Evolution also needs some ingredients.

The objective is achieved.

The true face of our great friends from India whose every post was a friendly reminder of their great friendship and common bond with Pakistanis is completely exposed.

Now let them blabber.

They can only do this.

I think Indians suffer as much as me when reading post.

If I was in India, probably I would have been slaughtered in the name of democracy and secularism by people who cannot even spell it.

Irony man irony. AND POOR ENGLISH. Sorry.