Salman, Padma, Fatwa

I have nothinjg but respect for women fighting for dignity of all women, but don`t you think that this has gone a little overboard...I mean what Ms. Lakshami says or does is her business, one, and secondly, is`nt unfair to portary Mr. Rushdie as male chauvinist alone and let Ms. Lakshmi go scot free. Can they not be the two sides of the same coin each having their separate agendas: Rushdie wanting a ``tropy wife`` and Lakshmi wanting an intelligent, famout man.. what is wrong with that.. .i don`t think this is a feminist issue...this is about right to choose, freedom of expression and above all privacy...

RE: Lubna & Scout

Sorry, for the delayed response. I was busy calming myself down. Last week I saw the movie “8 MM” –(Nicholas Cage), alone, which made me extremely upset, pissed, and frustrated. The frustration was compounded by the interacts on this thread. I think my freedom of expression went a little too far. I would like to apologize to all ladies for my callous behavior (as t pointed out). It may not mean much since I have already earned the status of most hated guy on the Chowk but one has gotta try.

Lubna:
Thanks for your lengthy post, which helped me greatly to understand the alternative point of view. I have a couple of questions though, which, I hope you can answer. For the sake of argument please assume that I am in total agreement with your point of view and also try to ignore my rightfully earned status of a male chauvinist and also “that” which Slink thinks I am.

Q.1 – Is “freedom of choice” the reason that I never see women-right activists squatting in front of Nudie Bars.

Q.2 – Is this the reason I have never seen them marching through the Heera Mandi?

Q.3 – Is this the reason I have never seen them trying to jam some child pornography sites?

Q.4 – It is also my understanding, after reading your post, that it is perfectly fine if Tony is doing dis and dat with someone else’s daughter, because it is his freedom of choice and we should leave it to his conscience. He will ultimately be punished by his conscience IF it is wrong; Whereas, my daughter is protected by nature’s law of chance. Well, come on, what are the odds that Tony will lay hands on my daughter?

Q.5 – Since you are not sure whether you can make right decisions for your offspring therefore we should let them invent their own wheel. Also since we are unsure even about ourselves, therefore, we should exercise our freedom of choice. The logic boggles my mind. I was under the impression that you tell your children what you know-but hey its my point of view.

Q.5 – Since Tony is practicing his freedom of choice we should leave him alone with his conscience. However, we should condemn Mullah and Taliban for their freedom of choice. I thought we were supposed to leave everyone alone with their conscience.

There are a tons of other questions but lets first see what you have to say about the above.

Scout:
I found your post quite pragmatic (as usual). Just a little question: Since you were talking about telling your childern about moral values, what to do you think about legislating the moral values?

Scout #193

Anorexic beauty.

What a good example.

May be they are born not to have and raise children.

And may be without menses with anorexia nervosa.

That is why they import us desis also to fulfil their lack of children.

TURTLES STAMPEDING THROUGH PEANUT BUTTER

RE: Lubna, Scout, and Sadhna

Thank you so much for your responses and proving that you think therefore you are. I will respond to your posts later in the day.

What about others; are they exercising their freedom not to choose to respond to this obnoxious ignoramous or are they just a bunch of turtles stampeding through peanut butter.

Lubna and others,

Have we become so resigned to and blinded by this misused concept of freedom of choice, that we`ve lost our sense of values and morals?

Next thing you know, you`ll be saying: Oh my son`s shooting up heroin, but what can I do, it`s his freedom of choice. My daughter is posing nude with strategically placed hands on her body, but that`s ok, it`s her freedom to choose.

If someone is doing something wrong, their freedom of choice can go down the drain as far as I`m concerned, I`ll say something about it.

It`s another matter if people don`t listen and continue misusing their so-called freedom.

On a side note, is catering to societal standards of beauty (anorexic beauty of the models of today, including Padma here), really freedom of choice? Isn`t that a sort of slavery to man-made standards?

Unfortunately I`ve seen many desi young people lose themselves because of their narrow concept of American freedom. Instead of the ``do what`s best`` freedom, they opt for the ``do what you want without paying heed to consequences`` freedom.

I`m really disturbed at how the children of these misguided desis are going to turn out to be.

So, should we do in Rome as the Romans do?

Absolutely, but with a caveat: Observe the Romans carefully and emulate those actions that have good, positive results. It`s that simple.

Re: Lubna

``Like slink pointed out, we`re hardly in a position to make ANY decision for ANYONE. We are severely handicapped (mentally) to be trusted with this huge responsibility. (Just ask any parent and they`ll tell you what a nightmare it is raising kids and not knowing whether what they as parents are deciding for them will eventually benefit the child or not). Often I personally don`t feel competent enough to make the ``right`` choice for MYSELF, how can I take the responsibility of choosing for someone else?``

You are my new hero. I couldn`t have articulated my own thoughts on this any better.

Too bad for the foolish who don`t understand or appreciate this...it is one of the most important lessons, privileges, and joys of life.

and uhh, one more thing.

can i see your license?
i and women of my ilk would like some tangible proof besides ofcourse your tantalizingly smooth words and charming manner that you have a right to judge (and condemn/condole) us.

cant stop you from judging me, we judge people all the time. theres something about the fact the you and men of your ilk will try to stop me from living my life the way i see fit and instead expect me to docilely agree to live the way you see fit.
teeny tiny problem there.
rizvi.

acerbicjazabati...umm..i guess you are talking to me..not sure which post pushed your buttons..

no, you are not right (surprise!)..i have no problem with comparisons to islam...as long as they are substancial comparisons.

substancial, well made arguments that are logical and not repetitive, regurgitated rhetoric is fine with me.

rizvi

Urstruly: (long post ahead)

Thought about giving you my Jay-treatment. Thought again and decided not to - Jay`s too special for that. So I`ll just treat you the way I`d treat anyone wearing monochrome glasses.

First of all, better take those shades off. By seeing things in a particular shade you`re missing out on too much. Tch tch.. no wonder you`ve got such a dull outlook on things. The world is not painted with the same paintbrush. Learn to acknowledge and appreciate the different hues and colors around you.

[I also told right in the begining in #165 that I wear monochrome glasses. So men are included in those rules that we should set up for ``currency exchange``.]

--Well that`s not what #165 implied. You kept on referring to the ``currency`` of women throughout the post but not once to male ``currency``.

[You can re-read #165 after replacing all ugly names given to women by equivalent names given to men.]

--Nah... I`d never do that. I love my father too much, I love my friends too much, and I have a lot of respect for most of the other men I`ve ever known or worked with.

Let me just make this clear - it wasn`t my intention to attack men. Hey, I love men! All I was trying to do was point out to you that you were being unfair by singling women out.

[Will #179 help you demarcate the boundries?]

--Actually, didn`t read the whole thing - ie the second part - pointless. But to answer your question - no. Like I said, it is very difficult to demarcate boundaries. Everyone has their own idea of how much freedom we should have in making our decisions. Our decisions are not influenced by the fact we have the freedom to choose whatever, our judgments are influenced by our moral perceptions. We can`t change a mature person`s perceptions of what is ``wrong`` and what is ``right``. I`m sure ``Tony`` realizes that what he`s doing is wrong, but our telling him so is not going to deter him. Let`s say if the laws are changed and this ``freedom`` is limited, you really think that will stop him? If his conscious is not eating him up, how will some lines on some paper help? The paternalistic attitude of the state or family or society will not deter the Tonys of this world from doing what they want to. For every Tony who practices his freedom and chooses ``wrong``, there will be thousands of others who will choose ``right``. Now, I`m not saying each and every human being should be free to make their own decisions. Of course, minors need to be excluded, as well as those individuals who`re not completely in control of their mental faculties due to medical reasons. All other individuals, however, should be free to decide for themselves. By the time we`re given this responsibility, we are somewhat capable of making reasonable judgments. Sometimes we`ll be wrong, sometimes we`ll be right. We learn from our experience and the experience of others. Choices made in the past will influence future decisions.

*sigh * Allow me to explain my point by giving you a personal perspective on the freedom to decide for oneself on a personal level...

Like slink pointed out, we`re hardly in a position to make ANY decision for ANYONE. We are severely handicapped (mentally) to be trusted with this huge responsibility. (Just ask any parent and they`ll tell you what a nightmare it is raising kids and not knowing whether what they as parents are deciding for them will eventually benefit the child or not). Often I personally don`t feel competent enough to make the ``right`` choice for MYSELF, how can I take the responsibility of choosing for someone else? Who am I to decide what is ``right`` or what is ``wrong`` for another individual? Everyone`s perceptions of this, or of what should be acceptable and what shouldn`t be, are different. I wouldn`t want to be blamed for any unwelcome consequences resulting from any decision I make for another person. By the same token, I wouldn`t want to hold others responsible for the consequences of any choices they make for me. Assuming these individuals would be those close to me, I`d hate for them to be in a position where I`d feel resentment towards them as a result of what they perceived to be the ``right`` choice for me. I love them too much for that. Guidance IS appreciated and welcome anytime, but in the end I`d like to take the sole responsibility for all of my decisions and their consequences, be they ``wrong`` or ``right``. I have to live with my decisions and myself. It`s very easy to pass the buck to someone else for something that`s gone wrong but since I`d hate to be at the receiving end, I`m sure others would too.

So far I`ve been talking about decisions on a personal level. Let`s take this a step further and talk about decisions on a grander scale (say the state deciding on our behalf). Now, I`m not an anarchist. I do believe in law and order. But those in positions to decide on our behalf are humans as well after all. They don`t have any special capabilities that make them any better at making judgments. Hence they`ve passed a huge chunk of their responsibility to us by giving us the freedom to choose for ourselves to a large extent. They`ve TRUSTED us with this responsibility and now it is up to us to use this freedom with sense. We should be very grateful for this choice. Just ask the women in Saudi, and both the genders in Afghanistan and many other places what it`s like to not have the power to decide for oneself.

One other thing... in case you were referring to me... I never claimed ``to know it all``. I DON`T know it all and never will know it all. If my views, beliefs make me an ``everyday dreamer``, *shrug * ...hum apni khwabon ki dunya may gumn hain, khush hain. Raasta kahin na kahin say dhoond nikaalay gain aur agar nahi mila, apna raasta khud hi banalain gain.

RE: Sadhna

You absolutely did not confuse the issue. I think you have put the issue in right words. Allow me to add a little bit to what you are saying.

The consequences for the choices that individuals make are not limited to and can not be contained to the individual who made that choice. Most of the time the whole society faces the consequences of individual choices. That`s all.

So the issue here is that what we should do as individual and as society when faced with this dilema.

There is no ``us`` or ``them`` here, it is just ``we`` who have to fight the temptation to walk on the path of least resistance.

Hm let me confuse the issue some more :-). It doesnot help enough to have `unfettered` choice because individual choices will always come with a cost. As scout says very rightly, its the consequences. The freedom of choice will never come with freedom from consequences, until each person has an island to himself. Thats why Bill Clinton kept whining, he wanted freedom from consequences.

Also, it doesnot help women enough to be able to leer back at adequately-unclad men in a tit-for tat. Re the `liberation` movement IMO it was incomplete. Again, IMO, they mistook the patriarchal hegemonistic control which they tried to demolish as mostly sexual in nature. In fact such control has a much larger scope, ie moral. Moral may mean moral, political, economic, maybe religious AND sexual. (sb #134)

If liberating warriors hadnot stopped on the way to indulge themselves, they would have gotten closer to winning their battle(old story). The emphasis on equality of sexual rights seems to have made equal moral/political/economic powers rather secondary at least in popular discourse. If anything women may actually have lost ground due to the movement since traditional social structures were not total losses in this regard.(PM in the past).

Where venturing on one`s sole and individual cognizance into the sexual-equality bullpit is concerned, remember guys/individuals don`t play fair one-to-one and the laws of supply and demand may turn out to be much harsher and more unfair to women/men as individuals than any now-derided ancient laws.

slink #183

Shandy:

Those two words ‘missed you’...what can one deduce? .... Doesn’t failure to communicate (Query --10/25) robs them of their currency? ... damn... am so full of .... these days ... trying to hide the banalities of life in a facade of civility, charm and wit rather transparently for those who can see through me...toldya about the kid... the voodoo-hakims have pulled the plug of hope leaving him adrift in a sea of Allahs ... alhamdo-yarhamuku-insha-fi’amaanu- ....he is in a lot of pain and gets doses of morphine...no euphoria there...not able to even indulge in minor chores we take for granted.. has to be attended to... he is only lucky in the sense that he is surrounded by doting parents who have taken indefinite leave to be with him for the final rukhsati ...after the 9-5 carrotussle we spend all the time there...but then his luck runs out ...obviously he is fading...real brother makes himself unavailable...and as even vision recedes he is not able to read or watch....withdrawing ever so delicately in a world of his thoughts.... (digression... so many times I get unnecessarily irksome when my sole desire is to be left alone to pursue a chain of thought or an interesting read or a playoff game or just mulling over bane nothings....end digression)....and reduced to simplicity it is this: can anyone assure him he won’t go to hell?...he won’t talk about death with his parents....that leaves a few of us ... I for one feel so impotent...surprising... seem ever ready to jump into any fracas... am genuinely reluctant to help his with his queries... at this stage how can I relate my doubts...feel like saying ...hey kid, stop worrying.... you are lucky you are taking an early exit... this pain is nothing compared to others you may have experienced later...this can be dulled with voodoo medicine....you have been spared the agonies of love, friendships, and other relationships and ambitions that are so easy to acquire so painful to rid of...everytime one falls out of love the hurt and pain can be excruciating... won’t blame cupid alone ... is hard to make real friends and when they disappear into thin ether without explanation the pain is intense for some...there are other dreams other aspirations where failure can be devastating... I know it depends on age and expectations ... but am talking of hurt and pain during the promised three score and ten .. sadly not in his case...back to impotence and doubts... is there a heaven or a hell... Iqbal .... of Sir Muhammad Iqbal later Hakim ul Ummat Allama Iqbal fame in Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam has among other earlier scholars has raised serious questions about Jannah and Jehannah ...am personally still in an enquiring mode how can I reassure the kid that he won’t end up in hell... oh blast the Beards for inculcating such fear in minds...want to tell him he is a nice kid who knowingly did not hurt anyone... had no vices...went out of his way to help with others....why would he worry about hell... but cannot tell him this...help me.. how can I reassure this kid...I must find a convincing way..... I must....

bsp,

t


PS:

fairdinkum #184:

[..what on earth are we talking about on this board?]

---the usual, you should know by now, trivial nothings framed by larger than life obscure unfathomable issues... and in this post, earlier, I am at my obscure worst :)

[...temporal, mate sorry about not posting response to your letter on speaker`s corner..to be honest, i haven`t checked out those books as yet :) sorry.. anyway, welcome back!]

---I didn’t go anywhere .. was just brooding in a corner...

[..slink, do diaries of iqbal ahmad really exist?]

---Will let Shandy answer that. I do know a friend Khalid Suhail has interviewed him in his prison cell and intends to publish the interview or a book. Will keep you informed.

RE: Slink

So basically you are telling me that I have only two choices:

1. Take the path of least resistance; go with the flow; do in Rome what Romans do; conform.

2. Take the path of least resistance; buy Bahishtee Zaivar and Hadayat Nama Brayay Biwi, Ba Tasweer; and conform.

Great choices- the devil and the deep blue sea. Is human mind so limited that it cannot conceive another way-I refuse to accept that. My refusal is not voluntary. I am forced to do that. I used to insult my mind by telling it that there are only a couple of options but every time I did that it hit me back with a vengeance. So here I am being obnoxious and all-I am just trying to save myself from my own vengeance. Probably the reason for me being obnoxious is that, I am putting my faith in myself on stake. I just want to spur a thought process. I don’t know how the issue of sexuality can be eluded while discussing relationship between men and women. But again I am putting limits on my mind-next time I will start from haandi-roti, changing diapers, and role of women in IT. We will see how it turns out.

I don’t mind labels. It helps us place people in different pigeonholes of our minds. But does it really make any difference if I am one of ``them`` or one of ``you``. However, you should ask yourself a question when you classify people with labels-whether you are afraid of losing an argument to ``them`` or are you afraid of losing your faith in yourself?

what on earth are we talking about on this board?

temporal, mate sorry about not posting response to your letter on speaker`s corner..to be honest, i haven`t checked out those books as yet :) sorry.. anyway, welcome back!

slink, do diaries of iqbal ahmad really exist?

acerbicjazbati,

the only thing you can blow to SMITHEREENS with any kind of competence is probably a large hole in your foot.

urstruly,

in your great search for knowledge on the basis of which to raise the future little vaneeza, may i suggest you focus on the dairys of javed iqbal for direct knowledge of the technicalities of sexual perversion rather than the laws of the united states of america. though, actually, pakistani laws relating to sexual offenses have no explicit instructions about the case of minors. you can find details at the interpol site.
you can find several passages there that you can use to change the subject every time someone on chowk exposes you for what you are. an...oh wait..i also want to do that fake reticence where i behave like an obnoxious ignoramus for 10 posts and then be all shy in the 11th.
i`d advise you to put your money where your mouth is..but then there would really be no discreet way to remove it should you need it in public.

temporal,

missed you.

lubna,

well said. and agree fully.

live and let live people. we use at the most 5% of our brains, how can any of us possibly be qualified to make decisions for others?

yeah ZEHRA

i have the license to judge you and ur ilk as women battered by their own complexes and women who want to prove, come what may that, they are THE CHOSEN ONES...

wouldve loved to blow ur piece to SMITHREENS but then dont want to make any links to ISlam cos you hate that ..right?

Acerbicjazbati