Headache and Heartburn

RSaxena #196:

[It is ubelievable how many deluded arses are running loose claiming one religion to be the ``right path`` and another to be the ``wrong path.``]

--Oh, so when SOLITUDE goes hollering around about how ``wrong`` the beliefs of others are, that they need to be ``helped through the darkness of Islam`` towards his ``garden`` - the ``right path`` - it`s OKAY then huh?

Umairr #188:

Couldn`t have agreed more with the second half of your post. You make some very good points.

[Poor, hungry, uneducated people want a leadership that can solve their immediate problems.]

--Yes! They don`t want to be preached to about how ``wrong`` they are about their beliefs. If I don`t have food in my stomach, clean water to drink, clothes on my body, and shelter over my head, how ``wrong`` or ``right`` I am about my beliefs would be the last thing on my mind.

Why are some of us so hell-bent on proving the beliefs of others as being ``wrong``?! Believe in the ``rightness`` of your faith ALL you want but don`t come around preaching me on how ``wrong`` I am about MY beliefs. Let others believe in whatever they want to and how ever much they want to. We are in NO POSITION WHATSOEVER to pass judgments so confidently as to who is a ``true`` believer (of any faith/belief) and who isn`t. It`s no one`s damn business whether I adhere to my beliefs in the ``correct`` manner and/or to the ``right`` extent or not! To you your beliefs, to me mine! As long as it does not have any affect on me, I don`t care who or what you believe in and neither should you care about my beliefs.

PM #184:

[Solitude has a point when he says that for Muslims get along harmoniously with the rest of the world, they must reject/ignore at least some of the basic injunctions...]

--No, no, no. That is NOT what he is saying. He is saying reject/ignore the religion COMPLETELY. I`ve already pointed out some of his statements supporting this in my earlier post. Don`t want to go through the hassle of cutting and pasting all that again. Too knackered. :)

[This is where I think Solitude has a point: God-fearing Muslims cannot co-exist with other civilizations without compromising on the stricter demands of their religion; without glossing over some of the harsher realities. Again, nothing wrong with that, but then at least have the honesty to admit it.]

--But then he attacks the ones who`ve ``compromised`` as well! He rants on about how they`re being hypocritical, how they need help to cross the path completely and blah blah blah. Why is it a problem for him if people choose to follow a tailored version of their religion? If they`re happy with their version of their beliefs, and if this doesn`t affect him in any way, why is he so bothered? Many do have the honesty to admit they`re not following their religion right down to the last word - I mean, how many people on this message board have you come across who claim to be ``perfect`` Muslims or Christians or Hindus? I admit there are a few (and you know just as well as I do who they are. :)) But not many. But just notice the way Solitude attacks the ``moderates`` for being so moderate about their faith.

[Actually, as I said in an earlier post, it`s crzay for anyone (not just religionists) but the true skeptic to ``respect all beliefs``. Only one who has no beliefs himself could possibly do so.]

--Hmmmm.... good point. I agree.... I think. :)

Zahra:

A previous post spelled your name wrong,and I am sorry again.Please take heart that I have yet to inter-act with the other one;I hope I don`t have to.;)

Zahra,Lubna,Scout,Urstruly,fairdinkum,Umair,Godot,Ali1,digit,Hamzad Afaqui,tahmad,Ferozek,krashid,rjanjua AND sadna & Shankar.

(& any other whose name I might have missed).

Chowk is fun,informative and tehzeeb-yafta because of you all.

HAPPY RAMADHAN-UL-MUBARAK TO YOU ALL.

__________________________________________________

WASSALAAM

FURY OF THE PAK MINDS,

What a barrage on solitude by the moderate educated secular pakistanis. At last the facade has crumbled, the burkhas are torn asunder. The ones who were silent about honour killing, the ones supporting the blasphemy laws are in full fury here, against solitude. When i mention the jihad and honour killing, the reaction is `` oh yeah, what is the point in saying anything, we are against it``. It is not applicable here, it is closer to heart, the spirit of the jihad has burst through the secular cocoons.

Look at the mirrors, read solitude, top it up with Anwar sheikh.

Khan 2000

# 179 # 180 etc.

Don’t you know that Darwin Theory itself disproves this business of creation from rib? Add to it the Evolution of the world as per Scientific Analysis; creation of World in three days falls flat.

If God/ Muhammad was/is so scientifically inclined, why it did not occur to him to include inbreeding relationships in the prohibited area particularly when Quran is supposed to be the Way of Life and expounds not only religious but socio-economic, political principles? By the way, I am not referring to GOVERNMENT but commandment of God handed down to people through a messenger.

As for Astronomy and Quran is concerned, Muhammad was indeed a man of great intellect with reflective mind and given to meditation. Hence, there is no doubt that he came out with amazing astronomical conclusions. But then Galileo and Aryabhata, Bhaskar also came with accurate astronomical/scientific conclusions without claiming revelation. Umairr reply at # 188 proves how everything can be twisted according to circumstances. Anyway, I don’t think there is any confusion in interpreting Quran 36: 40 and the facts given therein are wrong.

As far as the issue of producing anything like Quran, in case you are from this sub-continent, I request you to go out and read verses of Kabir, Guru Nanak, Gita and Vedas, you may find not only great verses but also humility because none will claim, “ Hey I am the only one Right and all others are wrong.” I am sure all other religions must be feeling the same about their Books. Before, you tell me about Muhammad being illiterate and still coming out with such lucid style, I will like to tell you that Kabir was also illiterate.

Invoking Allah’s blessing:- Okay, point taken but is not convincing if one correlates it with what Quran says about Non-believers.

However, I do believe that Islam when it came into this world was very progressive philosophy keeping in view THE CIRCUMSTANCES PREVAILING AT THAT TIME. It was simple to follow in day-to-day life and gave people surety of salvation in a single life rather then going through the painful life again and again. It liberated people who were getting exploited and gave voice to poor because of its ideas of equality and fair justice.

But these concepts of equality and justice were applicable only if one became believer as per Quran’s criterion. Otherwise, one had to pay jaziya, is excluded from sharing food and can’t even be allowed to sit together (No Untouchability in Islam?). In case you question this conclusion again, I request you to look into Hadiths. One of Prophet Muhammad’s wives did not allow her father to sit on a bed in her house because he had not converted.

Now, Islam needs to be reinvented and revolutionised as per present conditions so that e.g. one man is considered equal to one woman and not two.

Have a Great Time

great bit work by ``solitude`` there.finally someone has decided to bell the cat and declare that king is naked.

keep up the good work solitude,u have lots of admirers

msingh

RE: Zahra# 200

I think the authoress (just trying to be politically correct here) must have grown an ulcer by now after seeing what people have done to her thread.

sadna #201

Interesting set of questions.. I look forward to the responses....

Re: Zahra

I guess you have a point re personal situation/psychological trauma of shiraz...
And no, there is no need to get involved in a futile debate with shiraz (or anybody else for that matter) on validity/authenticity or otherwise of any religion [in my opinion]… I got interested in the discussion after PM polished and elevated Solitude’s arguments into a well-defined theory. I thought we were going to debate “issues” with positive mind set, and with a view to learn/understand or even challenge existing religious norms/practices in the 21st century…. As it turned out, I was totally wrong in my assumptions. The debate degenerated with such speed that my head is still spinning :)

Just a question. Some Protestant denominations insist on literal interpretations of the Bible : Former US President Jimmy Carter himself a preacher recently dissociated himself with the larger group of Southern Baptists because he had a problem with their literal interpretation wrt the status of women preachers/priests? in church. In a recent episode of a TV serial some other injunctions were mentioned which would be hard to follow `literally` these days: ``Deuteronomy 22-19 ``Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. ``Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material``

My question is how literally should one believe in `revealed` books to qualify as true believer? Is intepretation an individual choice or what religious elders of that time pronounce?

How much/how little is someone mistaken in pulling out and quoting `difficult` parts of the scriptures like Solitude has done and which no one has rebutted as fact, though some have rejected his overall interpretations/conclusions.

Sadhana

Few comments on the article:

I can understand the reason for the author`s headache, but the case of her heartburn still remains unsolved. Probably, she can shed some light on that. Was the food bad? Or the jam session caused some havoc in her system? Or the people? What caused the heartburn?

From the descriptions, the author seems to be observant. The observations are……what seeing see.

Laiken, there is NO connection of Baint Singh`s episode with this piece. It makes this whole episode sound disconnected and artificial. I think the author should have thanked God for all the blessings and given a good tip to Mr. Baint Singh. I cannot seem to reason the sympathy for Baint Singh at all. He is working hard for himself and his family - why should he be a case for any sympathy? I`d rather empathize with the heavily drugged homeless guys sitting near GW Bridge with their kushkoal. Whenever I drive to New England area, I find the poor fellows active with their kushkoals, even in this terrible winter.

Probably, the author wanted to add some emotional touch in this episode and that’s why took this route. May be or may be not.

Rdesikan #163 you write ``Why are you so offended if someone picks on religion?``

I am not offended by people picking on religion, and please let me know where you got that idea: I think this reflects your prejudices towards Pakistanis and nothing else. My criticism of Solitude was based on his disgusting remarks directed to some other chowk poster, not on his ideas of religion (and indeed I expressed my agreement with his criticism of mullahs with loudspeakers, and I dont consider mullahs to be good muslims by any means). Anyway, I see that you are unreceptive to criticism (if you took an objective look at your previous post you would see what I mean), and since both you and I have better things to do, I wish you all success and a good day.

I have a lurking suspicion that some people on the verge of mental breakdown are unwittingly using this forum & every article here to let it all hangout and invite sympathy & pity.Solitude,Fuzair being the ones most pathetic.PM suddenly seems to them as someone who can make them feel better.

Scout wrote a great article but some people here have nothing on their mind except fighting Islam & Pakistan.May we please get back to the article now Scout.Will everyone please stop responding to the weirdos.

The ignorance they display exceeds only by their arrogance.No wonder they are feeling the world slipping from under them.They mistake learning & knowledge for a certain lifestyle.They would love Islam when it becomes the dominant power in US & Europe.They won`t have to wait too long.

zexer100 Take a seat. Close your eyes. Breathe deeply. Now breathe the sweet air of chowk. You feel better already.

Now promise that you will never again get excited about a bunch of idiots (never mind which side of the border) demonstrating their intellectual deficits and their vicious little tempraments by ridiculing one another on CNN. On chowk, on the other hand we discuss matters in a more mature and friendly manner (most of the time).

re dost-mittar #166:

You ask very good questions my friend.I remember having a discussion on the very same subject with a very senior member of the Jamaat-i-Islami a couple of years back. I was of the opinion that if there was any hope for Islam`s rejuvenation it lay in the far-off lands of the west. Unencumbered by the baggage of oppressive state governments muslims had a chance to start afresh and reinstitute the practice of ijtihad. The bearded gentleman thought for a minute and then explained why he disagreed. The underlying foundation for Islamic thought and practice is the concept of an Islamic state. One can follow all the Islamic injunctions laid out in the book as well as the sayings of the prophet at a personal level but in the absence of a truly Islamic state(whatever that means) these actions seriously lack the stamp of divine approval. What he was driving at means that personal belief and practice is meaningless in the absence of a rigid state structure enforcing sharia or the code of Islamic law.

It becomes much easier to understand the various ``freedom movements`` going on in various corners of the globe in the name of Islam when one undestands the underpinnings of setting up an Islamic society.

later

-sac

P.S Rdesikan: solitude thought hard about what he was taught since birth and decided he could do better with out it, others decided they wanted to keep what they were taught or they studied themselves. solitude is a stud. Others are lemmings. solitude is the reformed one well on his way to salvation. Others are incorrigible fools condemned forever to crushing mediocrity. Hallelujah!!....oops....Allah-o-Akbar!!

What is happening on this board is truly disgusting....it seems like god`s army has been unleashed on Solitude. You all demand that he respect your religions and views and yet you keep denying him his right to the same.

Part of the interview of R. Sengupta with Mansoor Ijaz may be relevant to what is being discussed here.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/nov/28inter.htm

Solitude, may Allah protect you and give more power to your pen. Your crying out in this forum actually reflects a very sorrowful heart. But I am really curious all the killings ordered by Mohammad, are these true? How can a prophet order killing of people who he may anticipate as his opposers? In that case he may not have any parallel of him from any other religions, at least among Hindu prophets. Saints like Ramakrishna, or Avatara like Sri Krishna Chaitanya were very peaceful and conveyed the idea of unity in diversity. In fact, Ramkrishna had practiced rituals of every religion in order to experience them. Nowadays, Ramkrishna mission has become more philanthropic organization than a religious one.

You mention that they are authentic stories, So I take your word, however you should bear the responsibility of spreading the truth and the only truth as you know of course.

Regards

cheraym

``When the Qu`ran says ``there is no compulsion in religion`` it is talking about the ``acceptance`` of religion of Islam.Why?The verse continues,``surely the Right Path is distinct from the crooked path``.So muslims can always show the difference between the right and the wrong paths,but not force the non-muslims to accept Islam.``

It is ubelievable how many deluded arses are running loose claiming one religion to be the ``right path`` and another to be the ``wrong path.``