Headache and Heartburn

Re: zexer100

Get a life.

Re: scout, #160

``What I hold dear since I was a kid, is respect for people`s beliefs, no matter what they may be. I`m not supporting fanatics, I`m supporting the thousands of faithful followers of religion who are peace loving and kind. Is that too hard a concept to understand?``

Well said. For some interactors at Chowk it is indeed a very difficult concept to understand. This otherwise simple and worldly concept is as baffling and abstruse to them as the fourth or the fifth dimension!

PS: I enjoyed your article.

Solitude - some of my grrreat-uncle`s philosophy, might be just the thing. If you have heard it before - once more probably wont hurt

A good and pious man died and found himself unexpectedly in hell. humpff - talk about mixups. After devoting entire life to God, denying self any&all pleasures. All that goodness and peity for this!!! Went around looking for someoneincharge and was surprised to find the local priest there. Shouted - Not you too! what happened??!! And the priest turned around and shhhh`ed - not so loud my son, the pope is in the next room!!!

Needless to say, my great-uncle is looking forward to heaven ; )

RE Scout

In your analysis, you said: ``Second paragraph was sheer pity for the racist fool.``

Whoa, since when did Islam become a race? Nor do I don`t recall Solitude bashing all Asians/south asians? Once again, this is another example of an overreaction to a revolutionary point of view [in that it is contrary to common opinion].

I have no reason to take pity on him. If at all, I appreciate his boldness in taking on Religion, the sacred of sacred cows, so to speak.

Fuzair & solitude:

It is certainly a proof of your ignorance and hatred of yourself that you talk in evil terms about the man who is a blessing to the entire mankind for all times.

looks like you guys have spent all your lives among the ba ba blacksheep kind of western ``educated`` ignoramuses.The goras have left an indelible mark on you.Quoting Hobbes/Locke kinds might impress some at your own abysmal level,but you sound too neanderthal in this day & age.The world has moved far far ahead. The colonists now work for us,Americans are on the downward spiral,western education & culture in not something to wear on your sleeve.People mistake you for idiots,if you still do so.And I do not have to tell you what is on the rise.Better start packing or make arrangements and do plan well,because even your US will be not be same anymore.

Even 20 year old Islami scholars are aware of such rejected names(Hobbes etc) & they could at least talk to you at your primary level.

Islami scholars are working as leading-edge scientists,engineers,teachers have the learning you have but you lack their knowledge.Those ba ba blacksheep kind who have ``jobs``(like CEO kinds...requires no ``Learning`` it is a trade)are in their self-loathing trying blame

Islam as a cause of their failure whereas it is their third-rate education(ba ba blacksheep kind) which is the culprit.YOU are condemned,by this education,never to be able to THINK.That is what Lord Macaulay had in mind when he started breeding your kind.

Muslims do not talk in disparaging terms about other prophets & sages.Could you produce a single piece of writing by a muslim scholar who has written against ANY non-believer,monotheist or pantheist.For those in control,they are high & above these things unless what they cherish & value is threatened.....and then it knows no fury.

The tragedy is that what you are espousing you youself are flouting.In fact,everything you hate seems that which is most beautiful and everything you like seems to be the most evil & satanic.And you are still not happy.May Allah have mercy on you.

Listen,nothing can be done now.It was your destiny to be born in a muslim house-hold and if that bothers you so be it.There are a lot of things,in fact most of them,that you are not incharge of & can control them.Just try to learn from those who fast in this holy month and thank Allah for His bounties even though they seldom have enough in their bellies to have the luxury of spewing the smut you do and yet be so miserable & unhappy.

__________________________________________________

``Kee Mohammad sey vafaa thoo ney tho hum teray hain

Yeh jahaan cheez hai kyaa,loh o Qualam teray hain``.

_______________________ALLAMA MUHAMMAD IQBAL

(slightly more learned than the two of you rolled in one)

__________________________________________________

WASSALAAM

Solitude #171,#172

The ahadeeth you are quoting do not mean that the Qureish are supreme but rather they are foretelling the future where the Caliphate will remain with the Qureish, as it happened later that, Hazrat Ali (RAH) was the last of the rightly guided Caliphs. I hope one should make the difference between prediction and law. And more importantly One should read commentary along with transaltion of Quran or Hadeeth, as the commentary will give you more clearly the purpose, time, and implications of the verses and ahaadeeth.

As for Ka`ab bin Ashraf, and other poets of his likes, they were not killed because they tried to produce a verse like Quran, but rather, they were writing abusive and indecent verses attacking the Prophet and Allah, and spreading such poetry just to incite the muslims.

You know a nice way of twisting and stretching the truth.

As for Bahaism and other false Prophets that rose in Islam claim they recieve revealation from Allah which is falsehood as the Quran is the last message from Allah, and hence their banishment. Because the sole aim of these groups that claim to recieve the revealation is to adulterate the Quran, so that the truth is lost and the religion goes into oblivian.

Referring to the website of arabic surah`s and other stories, the fact is they are adding text to the Quran and mix them so that the real Quran is lost and people will be mislead, and hence the uproar.

I think, its no use talking to you, because I guess you have already crossed the line between `search for truth` and `searching to reject the truth`.

Therefore, you be happy with your religion and I will be happy with mine!

Note:I understand arabic very well!

See you in the hereafter,

khan2000

lil_web_surfer@yahoo.com

PM et al. (sorry for the long post!):

[...I don`t think Solitude has ever explicitly expressed hatred for anybody.]

I was going to start off by listing all the statements where Solitude’s expressed hatred for ``believers``, but I’ll just save space and second scout’s proposal. However, I have to say at other times he has stated quite clearly his ``love`` for everyone.

Now, Solitude IS somewhat confused about his ``cause`` though. He can`t seem to make up his mind about whether he wants to eradicate Islam from homes/private lives OR from public life OR both. He proposes secularism a number of times and his arguments for it, I agree, ARE very compelling but at the same time some of his other proposals nullify these arguments and these other proposals are, in effect, an infringement of a person`s fundamental freedom to choose. (He has chosen to stick to Islam so I’ll do the same for the purpose of making my point.) Couple of examples. He proposes getting rid of the veil - I`ll take the liberty of assuming he also includes the hijab in his definition of the veil. For every ``covered`` woman he puts forward as a victim of force, I can present one who has donned the hijab and/or the veil of her own free will. Is he not going to respect their freedom to wear what they want to for whatever reason they want to? Another example - he proposes banning the slaughtering of animals on various festivities such as Eid - many Muslims would argue they have every right like any other person to slaughter animals for edible purposes - whether they do it after reciting something or not is a personal matter. As to their intentions, (which he says are ``...to prove your love for God (or present the poor as an excuse)``), they can easily question his right to question them on ``why`` they slaughtered the animals. Who is he to question a person`s reasons for doing something that is not considered illegal otherwise?

At some places he makes gross generalizations and assumes ALL believers to be extremists and condemns them for being so, (post #7, #28, #33). Those who do not fall in the category of ``extremists`` - the ``moderates`` - he attacks them for being ``non practising Muslims``, attacks them for being selective (hence ``unIslamic``) in what they choose to follow, states that they need help to ``cross through the darkness of Islam towards the garden where the rest of us are playing`` (post #59). And at another point he believes Muslims are living in a world of delusions – in a ``Dark House`` – and need to be ``rescued`` by demolishing the ``Dark House``. In light of these statements: does he not consider ``believers`` to be mature individuals capable of arriving at judgments about religious matters of their own accord? Is he not willing to let them choose the path they want to follow, even if it’s Islam they want to embrace? He states clearly that he does not mean the Jihadi elements, that he’s targeting the ``common Muslim man and woman and family``. What about their ``right to believe in what they may``? Is it any of his business?

As I’ve stated in my earlier posts, he`s more than welcome to believe in whatever he wants to or doesn`t want to, but just the way no one has any right to force him to acquiesce to any regulations pertaining to any belief he does not support, he doesn`t have the right to force others to do the same either (for that IS what he’s proposing). As has been stated a number of times by a number of interactors, what a person BELIEVES in does not affect others, what affects others is when and how he/she puts his/her beliefs into action. He assumes he has the ``right`` answer – he has the right to believe that. But he is wrong about his assumption that he has the RIGHT to ``RESCUE`` others from what HE perceives as being the ``wrong`` path. Isn’t this being self-righteous? And it is THIS presumption of his that I think most interactors on this message board objected to, (at least that’s what I objected to) – not the beliefs themselves, nor his right to hold on to them, but him proposing to push his beliefs down the throats of others and denouncing their beliefs at the same time. If it had been a mullah or other preacher doing the same with Islamic or other beliefs, I’m sure most (if not many more) interactors would have reacted the same way. If it’s wrong to propose using force upon a person to make them pray or fast or wear the hijab, shouldn’t it be considered equally wrong to propose using force upon a person to make them give these up?

On the other hand, when it comes to actions where others ARE affected, (including the very action of forcing someone to embrace or give up something), I’ve always agreed with the contention that there is a need for them to be eliminated. The fact that I’m not interested in making this cause my concern is beside the point, but yes, Solitude does put forth some strong arguments. If he’s serious about his ``Jihad``, he needs to stick to his secularist proposals only and drop all that other crap. Yes, the man does apparently have a purpose to life (somewhat confused about it though – needs to eliminate those proposals that undermine this purpose, and again, the futility of this purpose is a matter of personal opinion), he certainly has a vision (remember the whole ``Imagine`` sequence of – okay, okay, I won’t use the word delusions – of ``visions``), and IS VERY passionate about and committed to his beliefs. BUT..... ALL he has done so far is blab about how bad the Islamic system is and that it needs to be completely eradicated from public life in Pakistan – that secularism needs to be introduced. All he has been doing is criticizing. At NO POINT does he seriously offer ANY realistic tactics that can be adopted to implement his ideas. Using ``flowers``??? Is he serious? If some of the contents of his posts are his idea of ``flowers``, he’s not gonna get very far. How about presenting some serious strategies that others might consider and maybe discuss with him? A highly provocative action such as invading a mosque is not exactly something a ``pacifist`` should be proposing. Or is he not serious about this whole thing at all? He contends Islam in its entirety needs to be held responsible for ALL the evils that exist in Islamic societies. He completely ignores other factors such as political, social, economical, cultural and mental/psychological, which come into play IN CONJUNCTION with religious factors when it comes to most of the ills in society. Eradicating ANY religion from ANY society is NOT EASY! He gave the example of India at the beginning as being a successful example of a secular democracy. I’m sure many interactors over here will have a gazillion counteracting arguments to that statement. Bottom line is, maybe if Solitude gave more realistic proposals, others would be more willing to engage in serious discussion with him.

Fuzair #169: It is quite interesting to note how two different groups of people (scientists, perhaps) interpret the same verses in the Quran. The following verses:

``Quran-36:38: And the sun runneth on unto a resting place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

Quran-36:39: And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm leaf.

Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.``

These verses are interpreted on www.secularislam.com as follows:

``Allah is indeed a big scientist. Where is sun and where is moon situated ? Can anybody tell me how they could collide/meet/overtake each other ? Is the sun and moon are neighbors to each other ? I have the answer for this error: Ancient allah saw (bare eye observations) sun and moon travelling from east to west seemingly in the same Sky area or same path, yet they do not collide and causing day and night etc. Allah hardly could imagine that all these phenomena are simply due to Earth’s rotation and NOT by Sun’s rotation. Sun is stationary for Earth, because earth is stuck in the sun’s Gravity, like we are stuck in earth’ gravity. Allah never say any where in the whole Quran that, EARTH ROTATES. Perhaps Allah could not feel earth’s rotation.`` (www.secularislam.com)

These same verses are interpreted on www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7895/expand.htm as follows:

```Settled place` is the translation of the word mustaqarr and there can be no doubt that the idea of an exact place is attached to it.

How do these statements fare when compared with data established by modern science?

The Qur`an gives an end to the Sun for its evolution and a destination place. It also provides the Moon with a settled place. To understand the possible meanings of these statements, we must remember what modern knowledge has to say about the evolution of the stars in general and the Sun in particular, and (by extension) the celestial bodies that automatically followed its movement through space, among them the Moon.

The Sun is a star that is roughly 4.5 billion years old, according to experts in astrophysics. It is possible to (distinguish a stage in its evolution, as one can for all the stars. At present, the Sun is at an early stage, characterized by the transformation of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms. Theoretically, this present stage should last another 5.5 billion years according to calculations that allow a total of 10 billion years for the duration of the primary stage in a star of this kind. It has already been shown, in the case of these other stars, that this stage gives way to a second period characterized by the completion of the transformation of hydrogen into helium, with the resulting expansion of its external layers and the cooling of the Sun. In the final stage, its light is greatly diminished and density considerably increased; this is to be observed in the type of star known as a `white dwarf`.

The above dates are only of interest in as far as they give a rough estimate of the time factor involved, what is worth remembering and is really the main point of the above, is the notion of an evolution. Modern data allow us to predict that, in a few billion years, the conditions prevailing in the solar system will not be the same as they are today. Like other stars whose transformations have been recorded until they reached their final stage, it is possible to predict an end to the Sun. The ... verse quoted above (sura 36, verse 38) referred to the Sun running its course towards a place of its own.

Modern astronomy has been able to locate it exactly and has even given it a name, the Solar Apex: the solar system is indeed evolving in space towards a point situated in the Constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location is firmly established; it is moving at a speed already ascertained at something in the region of 12 miles per second.

All these astronomical data deserve to be mentioned in relation to the two verses from the Qur`an. Since it is possible to state that they appear to agree perfectly with modern scientific data.``

Two groups of educated people out to prove opposing points of views, using the exact same data (statements from the Quran, in this case). This to me is the beauty of the Quran. There is something in it for everybody. Unfortunately, some people are bent of forcing everyone to believe that the Quran should be a part of the day to day life of a Muslim and a Muslim society. And other people are bent on forcing everyone to believe that it definitely should not be a part of the day to day life of a Muslim and a Muslim society. Both groups are equally convinced that they are the enlightened ones, and others are ignorant. Perhaps people belonging to both these groups are ignorant (or enlightened) since they are have the arrogance to consider someone, who does not hold the same point of view, to be ignorant.

The most enlightened people (both in the religious and non-religious categories) I have met are the ones who are willing to discuss and debate any idea, as far-fetched as it may seem, without forming a pre-meditated view on it. These people present their point of views to to try to provide accurate knowledge. Their motivation is not to prove someone wrong. Trying to achieve a modern twentieth century Pakistani society using the framework of a 7th century Arabic society is as incorrect as applying twentieth century USA social solutions on a pre-dominantly Muslim (and illiterate) Pakistani society.

The primary criteria for selecting a Pakistani leadership should be one that can provide a safe and tolerant environment, with food on everyone`s plate, schools for every child, and economic prospects for every adult. The lack or excess of facial hair on the male members of such a leadership, and the lack or excess of clothes on the female members (as well as the adherence or rejection of Quranic ayat by both groups) of such a leadership should be of secondary importance. If a group of bearded guys, and burqa clad women, who spend a better part of the day memorizing the Quran, can provide the environment described above. More power to them. If a group of clean shaved guys and skirt clad women can do so. More power to them, as well. What needs to be avoided is for each one of these groups to insist that only they have the answer without considering their own failiures and what the other group has to offer.

Poor, hungry, uneducated people want a leadership that can solve their immediate problems. Not leaderships that spend their times debating the finer points of their secular or religious credentials, or trying to prove each other wrong.

re. F_K #165

``When the Qu`ran says ``there is no compulsion in religion`` it is talking about the ``acceptance`` of religion of Islam.Why?The verse continues,``surely the Right Path is distinct from the crooked path``.So muslims can always show the difference between the right and the wrong paths,but not force the non-muslims to accept Islam. ---an excerpt only from a detailed answer by Maulana Mohammed Rizvi.``

So let`s see if I`ve understood the good maulana now... those on the `outside` have the freedom to choose the Right Path (as benevolently shown them by the Muslims). No compulsion upon them. (apparently they possess no innate knowledge of the truth). And by extension, those on the `inside` have a clear idea of the Right Path, so only these lucky ones are to be punished should they exercise their right of choice. Oops! Who said anything about choice?

``in the same way open rejection of the fundamentals of Islam,has also negative influence on the muslim society,it is indeed a major fitna.``

Can we get any more insecure about ourselves and faith now??

Dear Scout, (#160)

I took off my rose tinted glasses and saw hate all around. Trouble is, when I put them back on, I could see few people reacting to most of the hate spewed all over, with most ganging up on a few :-)

``This is an error in reading on your part. I never said it`s a farce, I said Solitude`s stance on atheism/freethinking is a farce.``

Now c`mon, my next sentence would have clearly indicated that I was referring to your position w.r.t. Solitude.

``Correct me if I`m wrong but people have different ways of practicing religion. They are ``using it correctly`` in their own concept of that idea... ``

See, this is the crux of my argument. With everyone believing that THEY are ``using it correctly``, who is to say who/what is wrong and right? I don`t deny that Islam has some most uplifting, ennobling elements; just that there has always been enough justification for what more liberal Muslims call extremist interpretations, which really aren`t that extreme at all. Where, for instance would you find the moral authority to oppose slavery, or slaying of apostates?

Solitude has a point when he says that for Muslims get along harmoniously with the rest of the world, they must reject/ignore at least some of the basic injunctions: you work alongside na-Mehrams, you pay and receive interest, you recognize the sovregnity of the secular state over Allah (or at best juggle with the two), you consort with the unbelievers, and you certainly don`t go around calling for the heads of the apostates. (Which is all great, I think -- Nobody`s perfect!).

This is where I think Solitude has a point: God-fearing Muslims cannot co-exist with other civilizations without compromising on the stricter demands of their religion; without glossing over some of the harsher realities. Again, nothing wrong with that, but then at least have the honesty to admit it. ``Difference in Interpretation`` is a feeble excuse , since there are only so may ways certain things can be interpeted (Don`t want to get into specifics at this point). And ``Respect for Others` Beliefs`` also seems a strange call for a Muslim. I repeat, (at the risk of appearing smart with the use of nice words :-) ) It is a little disineguous for an Absolutist Religionist to use the language of philosophical liberalism. If that sounds like so much of hyperbole, let`s put it this way: It is dishonest for a Muslim (or a literalist Christian) to `respect all beliefs`. Read Farangi_Kush`s last post for an explanation why.

Actually, as I said in an earlier post, it`s crzay for anyone (not just religionists) but the true skeptic to ``respect all beliefs``. Only one who has no beliefs himself could possibly do so. (Please think about this before reacting.) Respecting the right of others to hold those beliefs is a different matter. Now, as FK has pointed out, Islam does not encourage repect of all others of differing beliefs either. (Which is fine-- Why should I respect the KKK, for instance? Even respecting their RIGHT to have their beliefs gives me the creeps when I consider how much beliefs influence actions -- not least of all the action of passing those beliefs on to their progeny)

Lest the point of my argument is not lost in all this rambling, let me restate it: A Muslim cannot live in a pluralistic society without compromising on some of his beliefs and ignoring some of the demands of Islam.

So when you say : ``What I hold dear since I was a kid, is respect for people`s beliefs, no matter what they may be. I`m not supporting fanatics, I`m supporting the thousands of faithful followers of religion who are peace loving and kind. Is that too hard a concept to understand?``, I must say, in all honesty, errr... yes.

``What`s a religionist? I don`t claim to be a liberal. Nice words to throw around aimlessly though. Makes you sound smart.``

Thanks, if I can`t BE smart, sounding so is some consolation. :-) Btw, I don`t use `religionist` in a perjorative manner. It is just shorthand `adherents of a

religion. Also, you may not claim to be a liberal, but you obviously aren`t aware of how strongly your worldview is influenced by western, liberal democratc philosophy. ``respect for people`s beliefs, no matter what they may be`` is definitely not a religious principle (certainly not Judaeo-Chritian-Islamic anyway) .

``I haven`t stopped Solitude from questioning religion. I have a problem with him questioning people`s characters based on their religion. To me, that`s pretty racist. What do you think?``

I think that if he is questioning the character fostered by a religion, and not beng maliciously personal, it`s quite okay. This debate, after all, really is about whether religion (or A religion) is, on the the whole, making us better humans or not.

regards,

sadna #168,

well said

I just want to add:

I am not a Pakistani!

I hope thats not a precondition on this board.

Ref:Scientific facts and Quran

Reply to humlog #162,

answer to question-2,

It is true that scientists consider marrying cousins is genetically not healthy. Now tell me which govt. on the earth has banned marrying cousins? none.

Why? It may not be genetically best practice, but not so bad as to cause it to be banned or consider it a crime. Right?

That is what Islam says about marrying cousins. And it does not encourage marriages between cousins, unlike you have mentioned it. It just enumerates those marriages that are a crime Islamically (`haram`) and those that are not a crime. I only wonder if you ever read the verses concerning the marriages that are allowed and disallowed in Islam. I don`t know where you are getting your wisdom from????

answer to question-1,

The answer lies in your question,

``1. Which scietific study/research has shown that Adam and eve are from some rib etc? ``

Tell me which scientific study/research has disproved it?? Or atleast tell me which study/research has proved that the mankind did not evolve from single parents.

I hope you need to read more of the scientific facts written in Quran, before asking some really good questions, to know what the Quran says about Astronomy, try this:

http://www.moonsighting.com/quran.html

For general facts about Quran try this:

http://www.islam-guide.com

Any open minded, personal, one-one, discussion to me can be forwarded to:

lil_web_surfer@yahoo.com

humsab #156,

As they say half the knowledge is dangerous, that is what is happening here.

Whenever we take the names of Prophets, we send peace and blessings to them, this is true with any Prophet, right from the first man Prophet on the earth, Prophet Adam (pbuh).

It is a religious virtue for every muslim to invoke blessings of Allah the Almighty, on every Prophet whose name we mention in our conversions. There are many ways of invoking blessings the simplest is: `peace be upon him`(pbuh), however there are other elaborate formulae too, like the one I wrote `may Allah bless him and his descendants`, and there are others that are as long as 10-12 lines.

Suppose I take the name of Prophet Abraham and say (may Allah bless him and his descendants) then the blessing includes every one who came from Prophet Abraham`s (pbuh) progeny, including his descendants like Prophet David (pbuh), Prophet Soloman (pbuh), Prophet Moses (pbuh), Prophet Jesus (pbuh), Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), and all their children and all their parents, uncles, aunts, etc.

I hope it is clear now that when I invoke blessings for one Prophet`s descendants, that does not mean that I don`t want to invoke blessing on his parents, or uncles or aunts. Its just a formula and not to read too much into it.

I think if one starts with a false premise of bias or malice towards something, then one ends up with misconceptions and stereotypes, no matter even if the truth is contrary to their conclusions. What is required is an honest analysis of the concepts of Islam with the aim to identify the Creator and accept Him after identifying Him. The quran says in the very beginning, that this book is for the heedful. One who are ready to accept the truth when they identify it and are ready to take heed from it. Such are the ones who after identifying God, their Creator and Master, attain inner peace and satisfaction. Such are the ones to gain felicity. And to such souls it will be said:

``But ah! thou soul at peace!

Return unto thy Lord, content in His good pleasure! Enter thou, then, among My devotees!

Enter thou My Garden!``

(Quran 89.27-30)

That is the highest accolade that every devout muslim tries to achieve.

Fairdinkum:

Besides all your efforts to put forth reasonable arguments, I think it will be a waste of time to convince Sheraz. I am just forewarning you. Laiken, I will disagree with you that he needs help. A young adult in his mid 20s does not need help to understand the basics of his religion. He must have seen a lot of malpractices in his surroundings, within his own family/friends/acquaintences that made him consider the options he wants to consider. Rather than mourning all the time, he should go for the options he has[if any]. He is in US and not amongst the fanatics who will summon for his persecution ASAP. Correct ?

I`d like to go back to my post where I had given two cases of Murtids. Both the guys, in my example had bad experiences in their childhood that left deep scars.

One`s mother was maltreated by his father and he reacted very vehemently towards his father`s attitude. Apparently, the father was very much into religion. The child was unable to understand his father`s behavior. Notice the impact that a practitioner or a so called practitioner can have on his/her children.

In the second case, the guy grew up in a very confused environment. His mother was a Non-Pakistani, so there was no training on religion. Laiken, his father was very particular about Namaz and Roza. Interestingly, the father had another interest that used to surprise him a lot -alcohol. His innocent mind used to work on the stuff that was taught in his books and what he saw in reality - it was upsetting, confusing and disgusting. He was a brilliant student - his brilliance or whatever made him take the big step. He is a gem of a person and like an elder brother to me. When I was told this story few years back, I was stunned to hear that. I have known him and his family for a number of years before hearing this background story. Notice the influence of immediate family again.

Is there any need to discuss Solitude any more?

No and Yes! [iN mY oPiNiOn]

RE:Fuzair

The objections raised by guys who run the website

www.secularislam.org

against Islam and Qurran have been answered more than once for each and every one of their accusations by me and several others. They remove the answers within hours from their visitor`s book. Their discussion forum is new, however-probably started 2 months ago. They do the same thing at forum too. Try it yourself.

The joke of the century is that they have titled their site ``Secularism is Islam``. God! what a bunch of morons.