Headache and Heartburn

RE: Fairdinkum

Jazaak Allah. We have been having people like Solitude throughout the history and none of them has ever succeeded. Because they bring hate to fight love. Our Prophet was like a candle in the darkness. It doesnt matter how dark is the darkness, it only takes just one candle to make it disappear.

Fuzair #170

“My parents, among the last of a fast diasppearing breed, are good Muslims but do not think that their lives need to be lived right down to the last letter of a 1400 year old book written for illiterate savages. In fact, they would make good modern Christians in the sense that they try to live their lives according to the fundamental message of Islam not according to its rituals.”

And what is the “fundamental message of Islam”? And how did your parents deduct it from “a 1400 year old book written from illiterate savages”? How deep or superficial is your study/understanding of the rituals of Islamic belief system?

Solitude #171 & #172

After reading your above two posts and carefully considering your view point, I have come to the conclusion that you need help! I see hatred rather than criticism of Islam in your posts. I don’t see “reason” in your arguments at all. So much for PM polishing your earlier posts/arguments into a well-defined theory, which challenges the ‘status quo’ of Islamic belief system/religion. With your couple of posts, you have destroyed credibility of all your previous arguments.

I feel sorry for your understanding of the philosophy of Islam. If Mohammad was a tyrant and his reform movement a farce, how do you account for the fact that after more than 1400 years, nearly a billion human beings on this planet follow Mohammad’s Islam? Why is he remembered with fondness and love amongst the downtrodden and dispossessed? You can’t come to terms with his popularity and fondness amongst his followers. Well, how can you unless you empathize with THEIR understanding of Mohammad and his Islamic movement? You need to understand the aristrocratic, oppressive, and highly discriminatory structure of pre-Islamic Arab society to appreciate Mohammad’s reform movement.

I doubt that your accounts of Mohammad’s tyranny can be verified through reliable source. If you had read his biography, you’d know that he was a man of integrity and honour. How could a man whose explicit orders to his army were to ``Faithfully carry out all covenants and agreements. Avoid treachery and do not disfigure the enemy dead. Do not slay children, women, old men or persons dedicated to the service of religion. Do not destroy sacred objects, orchards or crops. Do not kill those who beg for mercy. Do not attack those who don`t attack you. Do not kill civilians. Do not enter into peoples houses. Do not accept gifts from civilians of a conqured territory.`` would order his men to kill a woman and her children because she was disrespectful to him (personally)? Have you heard of the stroy of that old woman who used to throw garbage at Mohammad everyday? when one day she didn`t throw garbage, he inquired as to why she hasn`t thrown garbage on him...people told him that she was taken ill..Mohammad went to see her and wished her well.. how could a man who never even complained about abuse directed personally at him had people killed for being personally disrespectful to him?

Even his worst enemies testified to his flawless character. I am deeply saddened by your maligning statements regarding his character, and I feel ashamed that you call yourself a Syed. I am sure that all Muslims on this site would have found your posts offensive. I respect you right to express you views, but I don’t respect YOU or your views anymore.

I would like to present couple of accounts of Mohammad’s love for his fellow human beings. Knowing how much love Muslims have for Mohammad, these accounts are sure to cheer them up in this, the holy month of Ramadan.

An old woman wanted to speak with Mohammad (S). She saw the Prophet (S) emerging from his quarters and came face to face with her. The Prophet (S) felt that she wanted to tell him something. She stopped and waited, when he saw that she would not come forward, he himself went to her. He noticed that she was trembling and tongue-tied (she was over-awed by the Prophet`s personality). He came and held her by the shoulders like a child and said, ``Mother whom are you afraid of? I am the son of that Qurayshi woman who used to milk sheep. Whom do you fear?``

“Returning from (the battle of) Banu Mustalaq. (This is really terrific at such a time when the values prevalent were all aristocratic ones.)
Among the inhabitants of Madinah nobody was left except old women, the crippled and children, for all the warriors had gone to the battlefront, and now the army was returning home. They all went to receive the triumphant soldiers, under the command of the Prophet (S). All the women, children, families, old and elderly persons and respectable citizens of Madinah and those who stayed behind had formed rows. An obscure labourer, who had been shovelling when he saw the Prophet (S) and the holy fighters advancing, hid himself behind the crowd, humbly watching from a corner. He did not consider himself to be worthy enough to come forward to offer his greetings. (He thought of himself as a non-entity, not a personage to come forward and salute the warriors; no, he felt he should watch from a distance only). When the Prophet (S) saw that the people have come to greet him and formed rows, he unmounted his horse and passed through the rows of the people, shaking hands with everyone.
He happened to see the labourer at the farthest end behind all the people. Breaking through the line he advances towards him. This person became nervous, (What? Is it possible`?) he had not prepared himself for such a thing. He threw aside his shovel and offered his hand. The Prophet (S) was shocked to feel something rough like a stone in his hand. Wondering he asks, ``What has happened to your hand?`` The labourer says: ``Nothing! I work with a shovel. I am a worker, a labourer, my hands have become calloused, mud-covered and dried.`` The Prophet (S) was visibly moved, as to why he did not realize the cause of the hardness of this hand from the beginning. He feels compelled to compensate for his omission. He expresses this feeling by holding the worker`s hand, kissing it and raising it high in front of his army, declaring: ``This is the hand that will not be touched by the fire.`` What an extraordinary person! A strange phenomenon! “

The great French Revolution is not known to him, and he has not read Victor Hugo, etc.... civilization flourishes in Iran and Rome. They enjoyed the fruits of education and culture, but you know what kind of values they had. In India, which had a great culture three thousand years prior to this event, even today, in the twentieth century, while the workers, after completing their day`s work want to take wages from the employers in the evening, they carry a bowl with them, so that the employer may drop coins in it and his hand may not touch the untouchables` hands. This is an idea newly introduced in the modern world that the aristocratic values should be discarded. But was not conceived in the tribal and traditional agricultural society. Then try to understand what has happened. Here is a gentleman well versed in English, is modern, knows Europe and the world, but still lacks such values. The world is governed by such a value system.

Here is the Prophet, who considered the kissing of the hands a sign of infidelity, yet kissed the hands of only two persons: The hand of a lady-Fatimah (A) and the hand of a labourer. “

Source: The Visage of Prophet Mohammad
By: Dr. Ali Shariati

Solitude:

I have given a quick look to your `facts` driven posts. It was interesting to read that you were taken over by the strange influences. How were those influences forced upon you ? Your family ? Your friends ? Where ? I am just curious to know if you were ever influenced to hate people from other religions and other sects while you were growing up ? Did you hear such comments in your suurroundings ? Even if you heard nonsense while growing up, cannot you seem to make your own mind now ? Or you are still a toddler ? If you aren`t comfortable replying to any of the above, please disregard.

Also don`t change the direction of your posts. You are very gently driving the audience in another direction - Very obvious. Just thought of letting you know!

``then take up the challenge of the Quran, and prove it wrong. ``

The challenges have been taken - and everyone who ``failed`` was beheaded or assasinated by the Prophet and brainwashed fanatical Muslims through the ages. Muslims cite different reasons for murdering these poets, writers, scholars and thinkers.

The two most famous poets of this kind were Abu `Afak; an extremely old and respected poet and Asma bint Marwan; a young mother with the gift of superb verse.

Muhammad was enraged at their criticism. When he heard the verses composed by Asma Bint Marwan he was infuriated and screamed aloud, ``Will no one rid me of this daughter of Marwan!`` That very night devout Muslims set out to obey the holy commandment. They broke into the poets` house. She was lying in in her bedroom suckling her newborn child, while her other small children slept nearby. Umayr Ibn Adi (one of the assasins) tore the newborn infant off her breast and hacked it to pieces before her very eyes. They then made her watch the murder of all four of her children, before raping and then stabbing her repeatedly to death. Then they offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to Umayr: ``Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?`` He said: ``Yes. Is there something more for me to do?`` He [Muhammad] said: ``No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him Umayr, ``basir`` (the seeing).

A month later the distinguished and highly respected Abu Afak, who was over a hundred years old and reknowned for his sense of fairness, was killed brutally in the same manner as he slept. Once again the Prophet had commented that morning ``Who will avenge me on this scoundrel!``

Bab, the founder of Babi (which survives today as Bahai) believed that he was called on to replace Muhammad as the prophet and replace Islam with a new religion. His work, Bayan is a statement of new faith.
When people sarted calling his work Tafsir Surat Yusuf as the same Quran which was revealed to Muhammad he became immensely popular (and maligned at the same time). He was publicly executed in 1850 after about three years of imprisonment. The Bhais were then wiped off the face of all Islamic countries (today they have survived and continue to prosper in the west).

There is also Ibn al-Muqaffa, the prominent Arabic prose writer, who was put to death in 139/756, is said to have ``tried to imitate`` the Quran.

Musaylimah was also guilty of ``imitation`` and he was brutally executed and his tribed massacred to extinction - today Muslims are taught to call him
Musaylimah al Kazzab (Musaylimah the Imitator/ Liar). Most scholars believe that Musaylimah`s work was destroyed and sayings were invented later and attributed to Musaylimah to brand him as a ``clumsy imitator``.

Ka`b ibn al-Ashraf was another poet who was ordered assasinated by the Prophet`s devout followers and they presented the head of Ka`b to the Prophet after luring Kaab out of his home on false pretexts.

On one occasion after the Prophet had recited from the Revelations, a poet Nadr by name rose to his feet and started telling his own stories in verse (a typical setting when two poets contested). When the crowd became more interested and captivated by his poetry Mohammad cursed him as a ``transgressor`` and ``criminal`` (in the Quran Surah 38, just like he went around using the Quran as a way to insult abu lahab etc.). Later on the Prophet executed Nadr (along with another man named Uqaba) for ``laughing`` at him and his divine revelations. BTW when Uqba asked him, ``But who will take care of my sons, Muhammad?``, he answered him ``Hell!``

Muslims still persecute, singers, artists, writers, thinkers, intellectuals, poets, musicians and scientists who speak out against Islam (AP wire, Rueters and other headline news for each of the above will be provided). Recently there was a website of amatuer arab boys who produced Surahs like the Quran and it caused a furor . In mid-June of last year, various Islamic protest groups in mosques all over urged Muslims to complain to AOL. The Islamic media picked up on the story, Muslim student groups got involved. Even the well known Al Azhar University of Cairo (a prestigious Islamic institution) complained to AOL about the site.

There are so many errors (of every kind) that I can write a novel here. But what difference will it make to you ? You cannot understand Arabic so even if I say ``here is a verse in the Quran which is not miraculous`` and you will try to kill me but if an Arab or Imam or Qazi or Mullah tell you ``here is a verse in the Quran that says Kill murtids and hypocrites`` you will try to kill me again.


Sincerely

Shah Rukh Khan - ka baap.

- All the above are solidly authenticated by Islamic sources.

``How do you say that Khalifa is decided due to his tribe?? ``

Read Sahih Muslim (the most authentic source) [Book 020, Number 4476] this is confirmed by Sahih Bukhari [Volume 9, Book 89, Number 254; Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817] where the Prophet states : ``The Caliphate will remain among the Quraish even if only two persons are left on the earth,``.

As a result, for six hundred years, though the center of power of Islam shifted from Mecca to Damascus to Baghdad, the remained with the Quraish till Halaku, the grandson of Genghis Khan, put to death the last Khalifa at Baghdad. Later, a shadowy Caliphate, shorn of temporal power yet still Quraish, emerged in Egypt. Then it passed on to the Turkish Sultan Usman (A.D. 1299-1326), who added to his many titles three others: Protector of the Two Lands (al-Hijaz and Syria, the holy lands of lslam). Successor of the Apostle of God, and Ruler of the Faithful.

The Khalifa should be a Quraish or at lest an Arab was so strong that the Sultan (a pseudo-secular ruler) of Turkey was never given universal recognition by Muslim theologians.

The present-day Sauds, helped by petro-dollars, may one day revive this idea. At present they are busy laying the first, necessary foundations: strengthening fundamentalism and pan-Islamism, and buying up political support in Muslim countries and among Muslim populations. There can be no Arab Caliphate (a euphemism for Arab imperialism) without Muslim fundamentalism. Muslim fundamentalism feeds pan-Islamism under the Arab aegis.

Islam establishes the supremacy of the Quraish, the tribe to which Muhammad belonged, in all matters, political and intellectual. ``People are subservient to the Quraish: the Muslims among them being subservient to the Muslims among the Quraish, and the disbelievers among them, being subservient to the unbelievers among the Quraish,`` says Muhammad (4473-4474 Sahih Muslim). In another version, ``people are the followers of Quraish in good as well as evil`` (4475 Sahih Muslim).

An Islamic state is totalitarian in the philosophic sense.In Islam, the concept of ummah dominates over the concept of man or mankind. So in a Muslim polity, only Muslims have full political rights in any sense of the term; non-Muslims, if they are allowed to exist at all as a result of various exigencies, are zimmis, second-class citizens.

As the son of a Sayed (a branch within the Quraish, are supposed to be descendants of the Prophet, are held in very high esteem and their persons are considered sacred) I warn you - one of my relatives may end up ruling your ignorant arses !(and I don`t like my relatives).

You are all noble, you are beautiful, you are kind and generous because YOU are good HUMAN BEINGS! Let us love each other and reject this divisive, intolerant, racist religion ! this religion will dehumanize you and will make a savage out of you (just as it made one out of me). Please fight this before its too late.

Re: PM #148

Thats my point precisely. Modern-day Christians consider the Bible, Old and New Testaments, to be merely divinely inspired texts, NOT the literal word of God. Thus huge chunks of it can be safely discarded as either (i) erroneous or (ii) irrelevant. You cannot do that with any part of the Koran. It is the literal Truth for a believer. My parents, among the last of a fast diasppearing breed, are good Muslims but do not think that their lives need to be lived right down to the last letter of a 1400 year old book written for illiterate savages. In fact, they would make good modern Christians in the sense that they try to live their lives according to the fundamental message of Islam not according to its rituals.

To quote The The, NOT one of my favorite groups usually ;-), most Muslims have ``forgotten the message and worship the creed.`` My parents think that you have to answer to God for your actions and each person is free to make his or her own mistakes. Live and let live. Only God can judge who is a true Muslim and who is not, not the Mullahs or the beardos. And, yes, they do wonder where they went wrong with me.

Regards.

Re: The Islamic Apologists

You may want to take a look at
www.secularislam.org

and check out some of Ibn Warraq`s and Anwar Shaikh`s writings. Among other things, they do a pretty good job of comprehensively destroying the apologist`s fervent claim of pick-out-an-error in the Koran.

Enjoy!

Not that debate on the evils of religious practice is not good and deserves to be encouraged, because these evils have been great. But lets be a little honest here. I`m guessing that at least some(obviously not all) of those pontificating on how bad religion is, have first reaped its benefits in form of loving and supportive parents, families, community and culture.

Religion/tradition as a belief or philosophy helps define a person`s position in the scheme of things. One should be honest enough to admit to oneself how much of ones sense of identity and security has even accidentally come from second or thirdhand(someone else`s)practice of religion/tradition.

Sadhana

Nonbelief in the existence of God is a world wide phenomenon with a long and distinguished history.some philosophers of the ancient world such as Epicurus and Lucretius were nonbelievers, and leading thinkers of the enlightenment such Baron d`Holbach and Diderot were professed atheists.Even in the middle ages there were skeptical and naturalistic currents of thought.Expressions of non-belief are found,moreover,in the literature of the Western world:in the writings of Mark Twain and Upton Sinclair;Shelley,Byron,and Thomas Hardy;Voltaire and Jean-Paul Satre;Turgenev.Today nonbelievers are found from the Netherlands to to New Zealand,from Canada to China,from Spain to South America.

Some ststistics on nonbelievers I have are from The Christian Encyclopedia which publishses perhaps the most comprehensive statistics on world religions copy i am referencing from is from 1982.According to their statistical estimate by 1985 there will be 210 million atheists and 805 million agnostics in the world.this means that about 21 percent of the world`s population consists of nonbelievers.moreover,this figure does not include members of religions such as Jainism and some sects of Buddhism that involve no belief in God.Since this calculation is based in part on public opinion polls and on governmental,church,and business statistics etc,there is good reason furthermore,to suppose that the actual number of non-believers is much greater.In many countries there is social pressure against expression of nonbelief in God as we know quite well.In addition ,the yes-no format of typical surveys is likely to result in the recording of responses of unbelief only by hardened atheists.Nonetheless, even the typical yes-no format shows that in some countries the percentage of nonbelievers is surprisingly high.For example, to question ``do you believe in God or a universal spirit?`` 56 percent of the people in Japan either answered no or were uncertain;in Scandinavia the figure was 35 percent,West Germany 28 percent,in France 28 percent,and in U.K 24 percent.

Public opinion surveys in the U.S using same format indicate that over a 30-year period(1944-1975),2 percent to 6 percentof the population were nonbelievers which translates into 5-15 million people.Studies where more flexible responses have been allowed suggest that the number of non believers is much higher than this.For example ,in one survey only 68 percent of the sample agreed strongly with the assertion,``I believe in the existence of God as I define him``.

Largest majority of nonbelievers comprise of people with above average education and economuc standing.For further information also check out the web site of ``The American Humanist Association`` which has been at the forefront of church/state separation issues their founders are the same people who founded ``American Civil Liberties Union``which has been the most vocal body protecting rights of freespeech and assembly in the U.S.

I recently visited another board with India-Pakistan Relations as topic which is still going on on Cnn Message Board. There are 14,000 + responses mostly by Inian renegade expates in U.S. down grading and humiliating Pakistan and Pakistanis on any issue as usual. I would like to have some Pakistanis to please visit this forum and set things straight. As of now only one Pakistani (that I noticed) ``Guzznavi`` is the sole defender of Pakistan. This is important because CNN regularly observes these discussions and incorporates its views accordingly on its live CNN broadcasts around the world. Here is what the CNN rules say;

`` Messages posted here or in chat are integrated into shows such as CNN`s Crossfire, Burden of Proof , and Talkback Live, in CNN International`s Q&A, as well as in daily news coverage across CNN, CNN International and Headline News. ``

My request to all Pakistanis here is to atleast come to this board and make a difference that can impact our International image. CNN is a very powerful medium and we must not let it slip by.

I thank Chowk staff for creating a forum where there are thoughtful and interactive Pakistani observers who take positive initiatives on Pak issues.

the address for current Pak-India relation discussion is as follows;

http://community.cnn.com/cgi-bin/WebX?13@@.eebbe26

or if this board expires the general area under message board on lower right corner on this address will take you on current issue

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/south/11/28/kashmir.01/index.html

Please Consider this participation.

Hope to see you there,

fairdinkum,zehra:

Why does Islam not allow apostacy? Apostacy or //irtidad in Islam is equal to treason.

The western world limits treason to political and military terms.In the USA,treason consists ``only in levying war against American,and in adhering to the enemies,giving them aid & comfort``.However,sometimes even thw western world stretches the concept of political treason to include things which are not related to politics or military matters.For example,in England,treason includes violating the King`s consort,or raping the monarch`s eldest married daughter,as well as the sexual violation of the wife of the eldest son or heir.Even now,``polluting`` the royal bloodline or obscuring it is included in the definition of treason.

Why has England included such non-political and non-military matters in treason?Because the royal family and the purity of it`s bloodline is one of the most significant part of the british society and culture.In Islam,the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs,it also has a spiritual and moral dimension to it.In the Islamic order of sacredness,Allah,then the prophet and then the Qur`an occupy the highest positions.Tawheed,nubuwwa,and qiyama form the constituition of Islam.Just as the upholding and protecting the constituition of a country is a sign of patriotism,and undermining is a form of treason,in the same way open rejection of the fundamentals of Islam,has also negative influence on the muslim society,it is indeed a major fitna.



When the Qu`ran says ``there is no compulsion in religion`` it is talking about the ``acceptance`` of religion of Islam.Why?The verse continues,``surely the Right Path is distinct from the crooked path``.So muslims can always show the difference between the right and the wrong paths,but not force the non-muslims to accept Islam.

___________________________________________

---an excerpt only from a detailed answer by Maulana Mohammed Rizvi.

Please visit Al-Islam.org for answers to all queries given in an alphabetical order.

__________________________________________________

``Majbooree o Davaaye giraftaaree-e ulfat

Dusst-e tahay sang aamdaa paimaan-e vafaa hai``

Saudaa

tr:No other choice,but still laying claim to be bound by love

The hand seized under a boulder can just not be out of such desire.

__________________________________________________

WASSALAAM.

Re Tahmed

I don`t mean to do an YLH-like multiple-response here, but there was one more point I forgot to make. When I was making my points against religion, please note that religion was not a substitute word for Islam. I have the same trouble with all relgions, including Hinduism, Judiasm, and Christianity in its various forms, etc.

Re Tahmed

I did not make specific points because others like Egalitarian Brahmin and others put it very well. I didn`t feel like reinventing the wheel here. Why are you so offended if someone picks on religion? Why is it such a reflex-reaction to automatically criticize anyone who questions religion, its tenets or its purpose? You have to learn to allow others to express their opinions just as you make yours.

You said: ``I see that you are continue to find it easier to preach rather than practice: You go out of your way to address your post to your favored few rather than us lesser chowkwalas whose views you dont like; and without burdening yourself with any specific point, proceed with the same generalities you condemn, with a climactic reference to us dogs chasing our tails.

Hey, if others can preach, why not me? If Chowk is a free forum, shouldn`t I be allowed to respond to those opinions that I feel like responding. I ignored many posts because it is the same warmed-over stale stuff that these folks repeatedly serve up--and it is my opinion, something I am entitled to, even if you don`t agree with me. RE the dog chasing its tails, it was a metaphorical suggestion and if I offended someone, I am truly sorry. I was making this reference to how some of the paki chowkwallas were going after their own Solitude with such venom.

Well, I have thought about religion and I don`t have to sit in front of a mirror. It may be the way you tackle your problems, but I have made up my opinion about religion and if you don`t like it, there`s nothing I can do about it.

Re Dost-Mittar. Nice points you made.

Khan2000

# 153

1. Which scietific study/research has shown that Adam and eve are from some rib etc?

2. Which science study has suggested that marriage among close relatives (first cousins)is healthy that God has not included such marriages in the prohibited marriage relationships because scientifically, such marriages cause genetic regression resulting in birth of deformed children?

To be continued if found necessary.

P.S. These questions are raised only because you asked for it.

Otherwise for me, all the religions at concrete level ( At spiritual/abstract level shorn of rituals and taken only in its uplifting plane, these can be enlightening and satisfying) are destructive forces. As stated by an Indian Editor in one of the books Naipaul wrote about India, ` the oldest profession in the world is priesthood. Religion has caused much more destruction worldwide then any war.

rdesikan #152,

Your first paragraph was all hunky dory.

Second paragraph was sheer pity for the racist fool.

Third made sense.

Fourth was laden with frustration and questioning.

Fifth, was an attack on the attackers. I`m not a dog dammit!!!!!

:)