Headache and Heartburn
Almira Adara November 20, 2000
#140 Posted by fuzair on November 27, 2000 12:33:38 am
Re: PM #47
Just came back from visiting family over Thanksgiving, hence my delay in replying. I would beg to differ. I agree that there is a BIG difference between Christendom and Christianity but it still remains that turn-the-other-cheek Christianity was the ostensible justification for all of the ruthless persecutions of Christendom. So how does one justify the Catholic belief (or has it been finally changed?) that newborn babes who died before being baptised were doomed to suffer in purgatory for all of eternity?
Wait a minute, you will argue, that is just Roman Catholicism. Desptite their deluded beliefs, Catholicism does not equal Christianity. OK. How about this. If you look at the Old Testament, it is full of hellfire and brimstone. A stern and vengeful God orders the slaying of thousands who displease him. Pagans are gleefully slaughtered and dispossessed of all their worldly goods and their women are raped and their children enslaved.
But wait! You will cry, ``Thats the Old Testament! Real Christianity is the New Testament!`` Nope. Christianity also accepts the Old Testament and even in the New, the Book of Revelations has some particularly juicy bits about death and destruction of all those who are not true believers. There is also the passage about separating the goats from the sheep, and its no fun being a sheep.
So I would argue that a literal interpretation of the Bible, Old and New Testament, gives a fairly unsavory picture of Christianity. It is only when a literal interpretation of religion is abandoned that the Judeo-Christian religions are no longer thought/social control devices.
In general, I would agree with Solitude in so far as a literal interpretation of Islam (no matter whose literal interpretation of Islam it is) should be fought tooth and nail by all who believe in democracy, human rights, gender equality and the fact that we are in the 20th century and not the 7th, CE.
What I find most objectionable about public Islam is the action of people who want to force their belief systems down my throat. I don`t care if you want to pray five times a day and have your sleep ruined. I personally think you are an idiot but then I think that the people who phone the Psychic Friends are idiots also, as are the ones who pray to Jesus to tell them the winning lottery numbers or to help them make the right business decisions. I certainly don`t want to get rid of them. If stupidity makes them happy, so be it.
Up to this point, your lifestyle really does not impact me. However, when you tell me to also pray five times a day and not have my bottle of beer, or that I can`t sit on the beach enjoying the sunset with my girlfriend, or go dancing with her, that makes it my business. When you want to kill Ahmedis who want to ``pray`` in a mosques, or kill Christians who allegedly burned a copy of the Koran, I think the world would be better off without you. So I certainly think that the world would be better off if we treated Islam the same way we treat Astrology--a harmless enough superstition--but when we elevate Islam (or Christianity or Judaism) to the level of the supreme word of God that must be obeyed, or else, then we have some real problems on our hands.
Regards.
Just came back from visiting family over Thanksgiving, hence my delay in replying. I would beg to differ. I agree that there is a BIG difference between Christendom and Christianity but it still remains that turn-the-other-cheek Christianity was the ostensible justification for all of the ruthless persecutions of Christendom. So how does one justify the Catholic belief (or has it been finally changed?) that newborn babes who died before being baptised were doomed to suffer in purgatory for all of eternity?
Wait a minute, you will argue, that is just Roman Catholicism. Desptite their deluded beliefs, Catholicism does not equal Christianity. OK. How about this. If you look at the Old Testament, it is full of hellfire and brimstone. A stern and vengeful God orders the slaying of thousands who displease him. Pagans are gleefully slaughtered and dispossessed of all their worldly goods and their women are raped and their children enslaved.
But wait! You will cry, ``Thats the Old Testament! Real Christianity is the New Testament!`` Nope. Christianity also accepts the Old Testament and even in the New, the Book of Revelations has some particularly juicy bits about death and destruction of all those who are not true believers. There is also the passage about separating the goats from the sheep, and its no fun being a sheep.
So I would argue that a literal interpretation of the Bible, Old and New Testament, gives a fairly unsavory picture of Christianity. It is only when a literal interpretation of religion is abandoned that the Judeo-Christian religions are no longer thought/social control devices.
In general, I would agree with Solitude in so far as a literal interpretation of Islam (no matter whose literal interpretation of Islam it is) should be fought tooth and nail by all who believe in democracy, human rights, gender equality and the fact that we are in the 20th century and not the 7th, CE.
What I find most objectionable about public Islam is the action of people who want to force their belief systems down my throat. I don`t care if you want to pray five times a day and have your sleep ruined. I personally think you are an idiot but then I think that the people who phone the Psychic Friends are idiots also, as are the ones who pray to Jesus to tell them the winning lottery numbers or to help them make the right business decisions. I certainly don`t want to get rid of them. If stupidity makes them happy, so be it.
Up to this point, your lifestyle really does not impact me. However, when you tell me to also pray five times a day and not have my bottle of beer, or that I can`t sit on the beach enjoying the sunset with my girlfriend, or go dancing with her, that makes it my business. When you want to kill Ahmedis who want to ``pray`` in a mosques, or kill Christians who allegedly burned a copy of the Koran, I think the world would be better off without you. So I certainly think that the world would be better off if we treated Islam the same way we treat Astrology--a harmless enough superstition--but when we elevate Islam (or Christianity or Judaism) to the level of the supreme word of God that must be obeyed, or else, then we have some real problems on our hands.
Regards.
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#139 Posted by tahmed321 on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
Umairr (Continuation of my previous post): I should add that by starting from local government elections, the military government is in fact taking a step in the direction of path (a) - it is best to build things from the ground up. Here is one possible way the military government can go up path (a) and into history as having made Pakistan the most progressive part of South Asia:
Step 2: Address some fundamental issues -moratorium on Kashmir in favor of all efforts at poverty alleviation; eliminate role of federal bureaucracy in service delivery functions, and cut bureacracy to one-tenth it`s size; reduce layers of government to two layers (national, to ensure compliance of local governments with universal principles of freedom and tolerance, and local); defined process for military to step in (basically, only in case someone like Nawaz Sharif has done away with checks and balances in the Constitution); and so forth.
Step 3: Declare willingness to cut conventional forces to one-fifth, with nuclear option serving to deter thoughts of aggression from people like Advani in India.
Step 4: Form interim civilian government, have national elections, and step back to barracks.
Step 2: Address some fundamental issues -moratorium on Kashmir in favor of all efforts at poverty alleviation; eliminate role of federal bureaucracy in service delivery functions, and cut bureacracy to one-tenth it`s size; reduce layers of government to two layers (national, to ensure compliance of local governments with universal principles of freedom and tolerance, and local); defined process for military to step in (basically, only in case someone like Nawaz Sharif has done away with checks and balances in the Constitution); and so forth.
Step 3: Declare willingness to cut conventional forces to one-fifth, with nuclear option serving to deter thoughts of aggression from people like Advani in India.
Step 4: Form interim civilian government, have national elections, and step back to barracks.
#138 Posted by tahmed321 on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
Ummair #120 This military government can either go down in history as (a) having set the foundations for a stable, democratic and progressive society in Pakistan, or (b) being just another one of the failed would-be life-time rules of Pakistan. It can still go either way. To take path (a), the government should seek to establish a SYSTEM of checks and balances based on universally accepted principles and the rule of law. To take path (b), the government can try to set up checks and balances based on PERSONALITIES. If indeed the government is thinking along the lines you discuss (i.e. personalities), then I think it is looking at path (b) which will lead us nowhere.
#137 Posted by egalitarian_bra on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
Reply #: 195
binifer
Haha now thats what i call the height of femininity!
Reply #: 189
AAmir
Chootay bhai,Bhaijaan,aap kis duniya mai rehtay hain.Kia larkian ungraceful,careless,awkward,gawky, etc nahi ho sakteen???aik tau in gender biases say mai tang aa gai hoon :P .. kia ap larkon nay ``Klutz`` ko copyright keeya hua hai??? patent laga hua hai kia? ab larkian aisay names use bhi nahi kar sakteen.are you one of those ppl who believe that pink is for gurls and blue is for guys?..how boring.
Reply #: 186
tahmed321
Yes i do know that``The concept of an ``islamic republic`` is a patently unIslamic piece of nonsense that is propogated by those who hope to gain a position of power in Pakistan through devious means.`` and i agree with u whole-heartedly.I have never really accepted this ``rubbish`` as u call it.. because i do know how much islamic our govt is and our state is!Still it is called an islamic republic which means it can certainly not be called a secular state.
Reply #: 185
tahmed321
Hehe i couldnt agree with u more.
binifer
Haha now thats what i call the height of femininity!
Reply #: 189
AAmir
Chootay bhai,Bhaijaan,aap kis duniya mai rehtay hain.Kia larkian ungraceful,careless,awkward,gawky, etc nahi ho sakteen???aik tau in gender biases say mai tang aa gai hoon :P .. kia ap larkon nay ``Klutz`` ko copyright keeya hua hai??? patent laga hua hai kia? ab larkian aisay names use bhi nahi kar sakteen.are you one of those ppl who believe that pink is for gurls and blue is for guys?..how boring.
Reply #: 186
tahmed321
Yes i do know that``The concept of an ``islamic republic`` is a patently unIslamic piece of nonsense that is propogated by those who hope to gain a position of power in Pakistan through devious means.`` and i agree with u whole-heartedly.I have never really accepted this ``rubbish`` as u call it.. because i do know how much islamic our govt is and our state is!Still it is called an islamic republic which means it can certainly not be called a secular state.
Reply #: 185
tahmed321
Hehe i couldnt agree with u more.
#136 Posted by Omarphoenix on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
Dear Egalitarian Brahmin,
Let the Phoenix give you his own example:
I have 8 fishes and every 3-4 weeks, their fishing tank gets dirty. To them, their fish tank is their earth, their world. Every 4 weeks, judgement day arrives, (tank is dirty) and the angel of death arrives (my small green fishing net) and carries them through space and time (my corridor which comes between my bathroom and the fish tank). There I put them inside the large white bathing tub where there is nothing but pure white (Alemay Bala- Alemay Sijeen, the places where souls are held prior to judgement day). Mean while, I clean the fishing tank, add my medicine and add new decoration pieces. Then the green angel comes back again, takes these `souls` through space and time and puts them back into this nice and shiny place (the cleaned up tank-or heaven).
Now the fishes don`t understand that this creature just cleaned up their home and that was it but they will come up with this explanation because there intellect only allows them to understand something along those lines. (they are one smart bunch of goldfishes).
The moral of the story. I and we don`t understand everything but we recognise our shortcomings and have enough humility to accept the barriers of our own intellect. And maybe, this heaven and hell and Allah or God (whatever you may call him- there is only one of Him) is out of our comprehension but He exists. Period.
Take care and there`s more to follow.
Omar Phoenix.
Let the Phoenix give you his own example:
I have 8 fishes and every 3-4 weeks, their fishing tank gets dirty. To them, their fish tank is their earth, their world. Every 4 weeks, judgement day arrives, (tank is dirty) and the angel of death arrives (my small green fishing net) and carries them through space and time (my corridor which comes between my bathroom and the fish tank). There I put them inside the large white bathing tub where there is nothing but pure white (Alemay Bala- Alemay Sijeen, the places where souls are held prior to judgement day). Mean while, I clean the fishing tank, add my medicine and add new decoration pieces. Then the green angel comes back again, takes these `souls` through space and time and puts them back into this nice and shiny place (the cleaned up tank-or heaven).
Now the fishes don`t understand that this creature just cleaned up their home and that was it but they will come up with this explanation because there intellect only allows them to understand something along those lines. (they are one smart bunch of goldfishes).
The moral of the story. I and we don`t understand everything but we recognise our shortcomings and have enough humility to accept the barriers of our own intellect. And maybe, this heaven and hell and Allah or God (whatever you may call him- there is only one of Him) is out of our comprehension but He exists. Period.
Take care and there`s more to follow.
Omar Phoenix.
#135 Posted by farangi_kush on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
Egalitarian-Brahman:#128
Well! no wonder you have an oxymoronic moniker.Was it Freudian slip,or this was also because you firmly believe that you are thoroughly in control of yourself(not a weakling`like the little girl)?
The story about the little girl and her love for her missing(dead) dog is heart renting.Remember,she is not crying for the Santa Claus or the Tooth-fairy.She is crying for a dog that once was there for real.
It is the Psycho. & the poor mother who need help.
Maulana Roomi tells us that the flute is still crying for the reed.The desire for humans to be one with the ONE and this hope & the joy of this pursuit is the only reason for us as individuals & the humanity as a collective to go on.You may or may no realise it but you too are moving along in this direction,perhaps by a different route and MAYBE in a late model vehicle,but in the same direction for sure.
Those who are not bothered never visit such labrynthine alleyways.
``Tumm bhee shaamil ho iss amnboh kee tanhaee mein``
Ever since when there was a physical assault on that symbol of romance,the moon,do you think people have stopped falling in love.The anguished cry emanating from the lips of Faiz:
``Ubb aur kissi farada kay liyay,kyoon fikr-e dil-o janaan keejay.
kiss khaab kay jhootay afsoon sey taskeenay dil-e nadaan keejay``.
from``Two voices``--after the first landing on moon.
tr.(for some):``Now,why should one give even a thought to a better tomorrow and how should one comfort this naive & foolish heart,without the tinsels & ``comfort-blankets`` of this shattered dream.``
(Due apologies.... Some license has been taken here to suit the moment)
Doctors(perhaps psychologists too) are known to prescribe placebos.If you give a water-injection to druggies they feel relaxed.Cancer patients have returned hale & hearty after given the classic `death-sentence` by the doctors.They did beat cancer,they did not beat death....at least they did not live under a pall of fear and they accomplished far more in their lives during this period than before.
Humans have tried throughout history to lay a claim to be know-alls & all-powerful.This they have done sometimes by outright adoption of the title of diety,sometimes by being the sorcerers,sometimes by Dr.Frankensteins,and in our day & age by the sceintists.
This zeal to try to reduce every binomial & boolean,and exponential to a simple,linear, digital & alphabetical is the greatest curse upon us today.A lot of people think they know the entire theory of relativity by just parroting e=mc2...and theological matters,they think,is just halva(or piece of cake).Only if they could realise!
``Khizaan tamaam hui,kiss hisaab mein likheyay
bahaar gul mein jo pohnchay hain shakh-e gul ko guzund``
FAIZ
``Fall-season,now that it is over but then how do we account for the torment to the flower-stems which they suffered during the days of plenty (spring time)``
just lamenting the price of `progress` man has to pay today.
__________________________________________________
Sometimes I think that in strictly ``scientific`` parlance some people who believe in the supermacy of MATTER are the material part of the atom and others are the space between these things(if they are such & I may be allowed to call thus).This symbiotic relationship,perhaps,is a must and it is frivolous & futile to argue so vehemently so as to deny the existense of each other.
A whole profession,magic,thrives upon the betrayals of one the most relied & trusted faculties,eyesight.
Marshall Mclluhan,in my opinion the greatest ORIGINAL thinker of the 20th century,could be a great help to many on chowk.
Bismillah Ar-rehmaan al-Raheem
All praise is for The Sustainer of the universe,
The Kind & The Benefactor,
The Lord of the day of judgement,
To Thee we turn for prayer & worship
and to from Thee alone we ask for help
Please keep us on the right path,
Not the one taken by the transgressors.
(for some):first opening surah of Al-Quran al-Hakeem
__________________________________________________WASSALAAM
Well! no wonder you have an oxymoronic moniker.Was it Freudian slip,or this was also because you firmly believe that you are thoroughly in control of yourself(not a weakling`like the little girl)?
The story about the little girl and her love for her missing(dead) dog is heart renting.Remember,she is not crying for the Santa Claus or the Tooth-fairy.She is crying for a dog that once was there for real.
It is the Psycho. & the poor mother who need help.
Maulana Roomi tells us that the flute is still crying for the reed.The desire for humans to be one with the ONE and this hope & the joy of this pursuit is the only reason for us as individuals & the humanity as a collective to go on.You may or may no realise it but you too are moving along in this direction,perhaps by a different route and MAYBE in a late model vehicle,but in the same direction for sure.
Those who are not bothered never visit such labrynthine alleyways.
``Tumm bhee shaamil ho iss amnboh kee tanhaee mein``
Ever since when there was a physical assault on that symbol of romance,the moon,do you think people have stopped falling in love.The anguished cry emanating from the lips of Faiz:
``Ubb aur kissi farada kay liyay,kyoon fikr-e dil-o janaan keejay.
kiss khaab kay jhootay afsoon sey taskeenay dil-e nadaan keejay``.
from``Two voices``--after the first landing on moon.
tr.(for some):``Now,why should one give even a thought to a better tomorrow and how should one comfort this naive & foolish heart,without the tinsels & ``comfort-blankets`` of this shattered dream.``
(Due apologies.... Some license has been taken here to suit the moment)
Doctors(perhaps psychologists too) are known to prescribe placebos.If you give a water-injection to druggies they feel relaxed.Cancer patients have returned hale & hearty after given the classic `death-sentence` by the doctors.They did beat cancer,they did not beat death....at least they did not live under a pall of fear and they accomplished far more in their lives during this period than before.
Humans have tried throughout history to lay a claim to be know-alls & all-powerful.This they have done sometimes by outright adoption of the title of diety,sometimes by being the sorcerers,sometimes by Dr.Frankensteins,and in our day & age by the sceintists.
This zeal to try to reduce every binomial & boolean,and exponential to a simple,linear, digital & alphabetical is the greatest curse upon us today.A lot of people think they know the entire theory of relativity by just parroting e=mc2...and theological matters,they think,is just halva(or piece of cake).Only if they could realise!
``Khizaan tamaam hui,kiss hisaab mein likheyay
bahaar gul mein jo pohnchay hain shakh-e gul ko guzund``
FAIZ
``Fall-season,now that it is over but then how do we account for the torment to the flower-stems which they suffered during the days of plenty (spring time)``
just lamenting the price of `progress` man has to pay today.
__________________________________________________
Sometimes I think that in strictly ``scientific`` parlance some people who believe in the supermacy of MATTER are the material part of the atom and others are the space between these things(if they are such & I may be allowed to call thus).This symbiotic relationship,perhaps,is a must and it is frivolous & futile to argue so vehemently so as to deny the existense of each other.
A whole profession,magic,thrives upon the betrayals of one the most relied & trusted faculties,eyesight.
Marshall Mclluhan,in my opinion the greatest ORIGINAL thinker of the 20th century,could be a great help to many on chowk.
Bismillah Ar-rehmaan al-Raheem
All praise is for The Sustainer of the universe,
The Kind & The Benefactor,
The Lord of the day of judgement,
To Thee we turn for prayer & worship
and to from Thee alone we ask for help
Please keep us on the right path,
Not the one taken by the transgressors.
(for some):first opening surah of Al-Quran al-Hakeem
__________________________________________________WASSALAAM
#134 Posted by shankar on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
Umairr,
Thank you for your kind words ; believe me, the feeling is mutual.
I personally feel that Chowk has definitely broadened my mind towards Pakistanis. Eventhough I have met many Pakistanis in the US, I`ve never had such frank, open discussions with any of them. In my personal experience Indians & Pakistanis, when they meet on social occassions, dont go to such depths of their feelings & views as on an anonymous forum like Chowk. There is always a risk of such discussions going out of hand, & ruin the evening, not to mention, become very impolite to the host & hostess.
Both countries have their idiots, but its heartening to find out that there are many more sensible ones on either side too.Even though there are a few core issues we may never agree upon, you have the same hopes & dreams for your motherland, as we have of ours. This may sound very naieve on my part, but you folks are definitely not the ogres I thought you were. In my retrospective self analysis, it pains me to realise that thats how narrow minded I was. The credit goes to Chowk.
I am eternally greatful to Chowk for its motto ``all are welcome to read write & think``. When we talk to each other, at least the sensible ones are able to empathise with each other`s views. That is the only way people of India & Pakistan can hope to be good neighbors & respect each other`s identity.
Thats why it pains me when people like ylh & cheryam leave. From the looks of it, it seems cheryam is hesitating; I hope she stays.
Also to ylh (if you ever read this tribute)--``if it wasnt for you, especially, I would`nt have fully understood & appreciated the wisdom & greatness of Jinnah``.
Peace!
Thank you for your kind words ; believe me, the feeling is mutual.
I personally feel that Chowk has definitely broadened my mind towards Pakistanis. Eventhough I have met many Pakistanis in the US, I`ve never had such frank, open discussions with any of them. In my personal experience Indians & Pakistanis, when they meet on social occassions, dont go to such depths of their feelings & views as on an anonymous forum like Chowk. There is always a risk of such discussions going out of hand, & ruin the evening, not to mention, become very impolite to the host & hostess.
Both countries have their idiots, but its heartening to find out that there are many more sensible ones on either side too.Even though there are a few core issues we may never agree upon, you have the same hopes & dreams for your motherland, as we have of ours. This may sound very naieve on my part, but you folks are definitely not the ogres I thought you were. In my retrospective self analysis, it pains me to realise that thats how narrow minded I was. The credit goes to Chowk.
I am eternally greatful to Chowk for its motto ``all are welcome to read write & think``. When we talk to each other, at least the sensible ones are able to empathise with each other`s views. That is the only way people of India & Pakistan can hope to be good neighbors & respect each other`s identity.
Thats why it pains me when people like ylh & cheryam leave. From the looks of it, it seems cheryam is hesitating; I hope she stays.
Also to ylh (if you ever read this tribute)--``if it wasnt for you, especially, I would`nt have fully understood & appreciated the wisdom & greatness of Jinnah``.
Peace!
#133 Posted by Prem on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
sadna #122:
You are exactly right. I am always morose before I dive into the pile of work before me every evening. So you can tell what I was upto when I wrote that message.
The trend toward democratization on one hand and the spread of information technologies on the other allow us greater hope than ever before. I would caution, however, that both these developments can be used to spread ignorance and prejudice as effectively as they can used to spread knowledge and tolerance.
Still, your point is well-taken. We should grasp the new, unprecedented opportunities we have to do something good and constructive.
Regards,
Prem
You are exactly right. I am always morose before I dive into the pile of work before me every evening. So you can tell what I was upto when I wrote that message.
The trend toward democratization on one hand and the spread of information technologies on the other allow us greater hope than ever before. I would caution, however, that both these developments can be used to spread ignorance and prejudice as effectively as they can used to spread knowledge and tolerance.
Still, your point is well-taken. We should grasp the new, unprecedented opportunities we have to do something good and constructive.
Regards,
Prem
#132 Posted by scout on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
egalitarian #128,
First.of.all.STOP.watching.soaps.
Secondly, What.Solitude.has.expressed.in.his.interacts.is.hatred...THAT.is.what.I.have.a.problem.with...Atheism/freethinking.is.just.a.farce.to.cover.his.hatred.I.know.many.atheists/agnostics.who.respect.what.others.believe.in...they.discuss.respectfully.they.speak.respectfully.
I.really.don`t.understand.why.people.have.to.make.religion.into.a.monster....If.used.correctly.it.can.be.quite.helpful.to.some...Everything.is.in.our.hands...If.religion.doesn`t.help.you.DROP.it.
But.don`t.insult.others.because.of.it.
Someone.who.prays.five.times.a.day.is.in.no.way.less.intelligent.or.less.worldly.than.a.person.who.doesn`t.
Why.do.I.have.to.spell.this.out.even.isn`t.this.common.sense?
First.of.all.STOP.watching.soaps.
Secondly, What.Solitude.has.expressed.in.his.interacts.is.hatred...THAT.is.what.I.have.a.problem.with...Atheism/freethinking.is.just.a.farce.to.cover.his.hatred.I.know.many.atheists/agnostics.who.respect.what.others.believe.in...they.discuss.respectfully.they.speak.respectfully.
I.really.don`t.understand.why.people.have.to.make.religion.into.a.monster....If.used.correctly.it.can.be.quite.helpful.to.some...Everything.is.in.our.hands...If.religion.doesn`t.help.you.DROP.it.
But.don`t.insult.others.because.of.it.
Someone.who.prays.five.times.a.day.is.in.no.way.less.intelligent.or.less.worldly.than.a.person.who.doesn`t.
Why.do.I.have.to.spell.this.out.even.isn`t.this.common.sense?
#131 Posted by Prem on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
Mr. egalitarian_brahmin,
You have no idea what you have gotten yourself into!
On my part, I found the following the most brilliant analysis of religion in a very long time:
``If all children in the world were taught with amazing sincerity and convinction by their parents that there existed an invisible door-keeper outside every house and it guarded the individuals inside, and a, b, and c were the rituals you were supposed to perform on the x day of y month z number of times in order to keep him content, it would be ridiculously difficult for an outsider to convince him otherwise after he grew up. Even more so, if they were told (from their childhood) that questioning its existence would do nothing to further their cause but rather weaken the gate-keeper`s wish to protect them any further. In the process, all doubts would be sealed, any questions asked when the house security is breached would be answered by `we probably didn`t have enough faith or didn`t perform the rituals right` and any doubts would be repelled by other members in the house, not to say that the doubter wouldn`t ever gain the strength to voice those doubts in fear of the other house-members in the first place. In doing so, you would have a whole generation of people who`d very sincerely believe in the gate-keeper and a whole new mini-religion would start.``
You have no idea what you have gotten yourself into!
On my part, I found the following the most brilliant analysis of religion in a very long time:
``If all children in the world were taught with amazing sincerity and convinction by their parents that there existed an invisible door-keeper outside every house and it guarded the individuals inside, and a, b, and c were the rituals you were supposed to perform on the x day of y month z number of times in order to keep him content, it would be ridiculously difficult for an outsider to convince him otherwise after he grew up. Even more so, if they were told (from their childhood) that questioning its existence would do nothing to further their cause but rather weaken the gate-keeper`s wish to protect them any further. In the process, all doubts would be sealed, any questions asked when the house security is breached would be answered by `we probably didn`t have enough faith or didn`t perform the rituals right` and any doubts would be repelled by other members in the house, not to say that the doubter wouldn`t ever gain the strength to voice those doubts in fear of the other house-members in the first place. In doing so, you would have a whole generation of people who`d very sincerely believe in the gate-keeper and a whole new mini-religion would start.``
#130 Posted by Omarphoenix on November 26, 2000 10:53:35 pm
Dear Egalitarian Brahmin,
Let the Phoenix give you his own example:
I have 8 fishes and every 3-4 weeks, their fishing tank gets dirty. To them, their fish tank is their earth, their world. Every 4 weeks, judgement day arrives, (tank is dirty) and the angel of death arrives (my small green fishing net) and carries them through space and time (my corridor which comes between my bathroom and the fish tank). There I put them inside the large white bathing tub where there is nothing but pure white (Alemay Bala- Alemay Sijeen, the places where souls are held prior to judgement day). Mean while, I clean the fishing tank, add my medicine and add new decoration pieces. Then the green angel comes back again, takes these `souls` through space and time and puts them back into this nice and shiny place (the cleaned up tank-or heaven).
Now the fishes don`t understand that this creature just cleaned up their home and that was it but they will come up with this explanation because there intellect only allows them to understand something along those lines. (they are one smart bunch of goldfishes).
The moral of the story. I and we don`t understand everything but we recognise our shortcomings and have enough humility to accept the barriers of our own intellect. And maybe, this heaven and hell and Allah or God (whatever you may call him- there is only one of Him) is out of our comprehension but He exists. Period.
Take care and there`s more to follow.
Omar Phoenix.
Let the Phoenix give you his own example:
I have 8 fishes and every 3-4 weeks, their fishing tank gets dirty. To them, their fish tank is their earth, their world. Every 4 weeks, judgement day arrives, (tank is dirty) and the angel of death arrives (my small green fishing net) and carries them through space and time (my corridor which comes between my bathroom and the fish tank). There I put them inside the large white bathing tub where there is nothing but pure white (Alemay Bala- Alemay Sijeen, the places where souls are held prior to judgement day). Mean while, I clean the fishing tank, add my medicine and add new decoration pieces. Then the green angel comes back again, takes these `souls` through space and time and puts them back into this nice and shiny place (the cleaned up tank-or heaven).
Now the fishes don`t understand that this creature just cleaned up their home and that was it but they will come up with this explanation because there intellect only allows them to understand something along those lines. (they are one smart bunch of goldfishes).
The moral of the story. I and we don`t understand everything but we recognise our shortcomings and have enough humility to accept the barriers of our own intellect. And maybe, this heaven and hell and Allah or God (whatever you may call him- there is only one of Him) is out of our comprehension but He exists. Period.
Take care and there`s more to follow.
Omar Phoenix.
#129 Posted by fairdinkum on November 26, 2000 8:23:20 pm
sadna #130
Good stuff! :) Those who are saying that women should work in respectable professions actually oppose women in workforce all together. Bunch of hypocrites..
Good stuff! :) Those who are saying that women should work in respectable professions actually oppose women in workforce all together. Bunch of hypocrites..
#128 Posted by sadna on November 26, 2000 4:02:17 pm
http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/20001125/iin25031.html
A secularist spectre is looming over Pak -- it`s on board a bus
A secularist spectre is looming over Pak -- it`s on board a bus
#127 Posted by sadna on November 26, 2000 10:06:17 am
Umairr, sherdil #126
All the `witless` fraticidal wars of succession in present Pakistan suddenly make a lot of sense.
Sadhana
All the `witless` fraticidal wars of succession in present Pakistan suddenly make a lot of sense.
Sadhana
#126 Posted by egalitarian_bra on November 26, 2000 7:27:19 am
YLH #188 ``Aisha how long are your rejected Indian Muslim suitors going to take it out on Pakistan?``
Ha! Ha! Good one.
Ha! Ha! Good one.
#125 Posted by jay on November 26, 2000 7:27:19 am
MUSHARAF FOR PRESIDENT,
In the reign of musharaff, the mohajir ataturk, this is what happened, from dawn of today,
Take another case reported in Dawn (page 2, Nov 19): 20-year-old Nuzhat Khatoon from Golra was burned alive by her husband and mother-in-law. Only after considerable efforts of the Progressive Women`s Association of Islamabad, a case has been registered by Golra police. Even the Abbottabad Deputy Commissioner was apparently deaf to the cries of the dying woman.`` On page 4 in the same issue: Bashiran Bibi has been sentenced to 25 years rigorous imprisonment and Rs 50,000 fine for killing her husband.``
The role of press is invaluable, newspapers have the power to raise questions, launch discussions. They have the duty to educate the public, to stimulate readers to think. Why has no correspondent asked questions in these cases?
According to the `State of Human Rights in 1999`, the annual report by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, the incidence of honor killing clearly saw an increase during the year. It is not only upto NGOs working on women`s rights to be concerned, we should all be worried and cry out.
DR BARBARA TEN KATE
Khanpur
In the reign of musharaff, the mohajir ataturk, this is what happened, from dawn of today,
Take another case reported in Dawn (page 2, Nov 19): 20-year-old Nuzhat Khatoon from Golra was burned alive by her husband and mother-in-law. Only after considerable efforts of the Progressive Women`s Association of Islamabad, a case has been registered by Golra police. Even the Abbottabad Deputy Commissioner was apparently deaf to the cries of the dying woman.`` On page 4 in the same issue: Bashiran Bibi has been sentenced to 25 years rigorous imprisonment and Rs 50,000 fine for killing her husband.``
The role of press is invaluable, newspapers have the power to raise questions, launch discussions. They have the duty to educate the public, to stimulate readers to think. Why has no correspondent asked questions in these cases?
According to the `State of Human Rights in 1999`, the annual report by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, the incidence of honor killing clearly saw an increase during the year. It is not only upto NGOs working on women`s rights to be concerned, we should all be worried and cry out.
DR BARBARA TEN KATE
Khanpur
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