Headache and Heartburn

A QUESTION OF RELEVANCE,

The educated pakistanis on the chowk are debating about an ancient book, interest rate is islamic or not, then how about discount rates used in investment calculations, how about inflation rates and above all how about the interest payments to the IMF, it is all a scheme by the muslims to avoid making any payments to the banks. While this irrelevant discussion is on, back home in the father land, musharaff and company have slyly amended the constitution by dropping a few words out of it. So much for a country of the educated, the debaters on the chowk, from dawn of today,

Objectives Resolution

THE Constitution of Pakistan is not available on any government website. All the commercial publications on the Constitution of Pakistan and published after 1985 have the word `freely` missing from the sixth paragraph of the Objectives Resolution. The constitution is also available on the web (www.stanford.edu/group/pakistan/pakistan/constitution/ & www.pakistanlawyer.com), but everywhere the word `freely` is missing. Various human rights activists and columnists including Mr Cowasjee (The sole statesman - 4, Dawn 9th July 2000) have written on the missing `freely`. It is heartening as how so many people have collectively noticed the missing `freely.`

Asma bint Marwan:

Congratulations, resident chowk kurranta and the prozac kid; this is hot breaking news, shocking revelation, CNN primetime material; you will be on 20/20 soon I think..... Woodward and Bernstein would have been proud.

Morons, this has been debated to death on alt.religion.islam and there are hundreds of webpages giving different versions of this incident and also detailed rebuttals by Muslims. Anyone interested can look up ``Asma Marwan`` on deja.com for the newsgroups and any serach engine for the websites.

Sincerely

Can somebody comment.

Is CHOWK addictive and therefore against Islam and therefore should be forcibly banned.

Farangi Kush #259

I will also direct you to Islamicity web board. (I was the most prolific interactor at one time till it was taken over by Sloageners)

There you will find answers to your CURIOUS mind.

Everybody also speaks the same language, tone and thoughts. No disagreement. No thinking.permitted.

May God bless you in the beautiful deen of Islam.

May God send to hell the person blaming Mullah for sodomizing small children.

May God send to hell the person pointing fingers at corrupt Arab regimes thus weakening Islam.

How long Muslims will be sacrificed at the altar of Islam. Sometimes in mosques, sometimes by drought and sometimes for demanding their right to have food, clothing and education and occasionally for not keeping a beard.

Dear Fuzair,

Since when the Fcuk did interest become a good thing. It`s one of those things that have crippled individuals, just ask any old hardworking normal Muslim Westerner who`s trying to buy a house and has to end up selling their soul to the devil and spend the next 30 years buying what...a chicken battery of a house. At least not much of that`s happening in the `backward, unmaaadrun` Pakistan.

And how about the World Banks and the IMFs who have all the third world countries by the short and curlies because of the `maadrun` interest system. For the third world countries and in this case, Pakistan, there is absolutely no way out of it. It can`t or won`t find prosperity even if it wanted to because of all the debts it has to pay and will keep on paying...and keep on paying and so on...

On this note, I would say that the blame lies with basically all the Muslims and Muslim leaders and Muslim countries for not being fit enough to run themselves or help each other so that fellows from the IMF have the nerve telling our ministers how to run and budget the country. What I also find interesting is how now that the loans have been taken, many Pakistanis suddenly want to resort to the Islamic notion of no interest, as in paying extra money back. How very desi. Of course the deal has already been made and sighned.

Please do not be offended by my comments.

Thank you.

Omar Phoenix

To the modern, and moderate chowk Pakistanis, who loathe the extremes in the society they come from and wish it were different, who blame everything on the mullahs and the leaders, and then self-flagellate, with words:

Heard on radio on the Thanksgiving day, an elderly woman in CA talking about the 60s - `for a movement to happen, someone has to move, and I was willing to support anything that moved its ass.` [they had several in that period, that came to reflect the flavor of America for the likes of us]

A movement is a hyperbole to describe Solitude`s contentions here, but and in spite of that the frenzy and the nit-picking(leaving the general msg to wind) to prove the one-man opposition wrong or to provide examples from other religions` texts to discredit the points Solitude is raising speaks volumes of how ready, even theoretically, you are to play a role in a change for a less religious society.

[in short, if you think Taliban is around the corner, this is not the time for picking on the political correctness of Solitude`s arguments; if you dont, talk to ferozk]

Not Taliban or Iraqisation, but the Columbian drug fields come to mind.

PS: This is not meant for everyone, I request the first line be taken seriously. Thanks.

Illiterate by choice!

Any illiterate person given the choice will make effort to make his son literate, so he don`t have to suffer the same way, illiterate suffered.(May be he will have to suffer in other ways, but not the same way:-).

But who lets the majority of people in illiteracy.

If having chosen representative meaning will of people a rule of mob. Then compare the statistics of education in democratic countries vs authoritarian rule. And it will become clear that in whose interest it is to keep an authoritarian rule and keep the masses in perpetually illiterate state (patheitic mob rule).

In discussion of Islamic history and Islam, I have checked references from Hadith from Muslim by Solitude. Where are the Qum, Medina, Peshawar trained people to respond. Or they are busy killing people of different sects, which they have imbibed over decades in Peshawar, Medina and Qum.

Islamic state and Ulema have utterly failed to provide leadership to Muslims. If Muslims can have War Booty, what is wrong in aspiration of Muslims to have a good life. When majority of Muslims are living in pathetic state because of lack of leadership. And fortunate ones are singing the song of greatness of Islam and asking all Kafir foreign donor agencies to give Sadaqa and Khairat for the hungry Muslims. I think solitude is just a minor reaction. Inspite of all the efforts by Farangi Kushs of all Muslim world over centuries, people still have believe in One God and Prophet PBUH and Book. Muslims don`t need more killings in the name of Islam. They need, food, clothing, housing and education. Which is labelled Ba Ba Black sheep by great scholars from Qum, Medina and Peshawar.

``why do women inherit less than men?--AND a society/religion refuses to adapt itself, then there is something very wrong here.

Islam needs to have a major rethink on its positions on many issues.``

One thing I learned from watching Gone W/ The Wind and it is : You cannot change people and religions. The religious south considered slavery its religiously sanctioned right (just like Islam sanctions slavery and promotes it through Jihad but recent interpretations try to downplay Islam`s pro-slavery stance to ``Since slavery cannot be abolished Islam dislikes slavery but asks the masters to treat their slaves real nice``).

The US proved that not only can slavery be abolished in the US but it can be abolished in Islamic countries as well (with pressure from the US). Today Sudan has revived the practise of slavery as it decimates the Christian South of Sudan and is driving the people to death and starvation. How was Sudan able to revive slavery ? Sudan is Islamic - Islam sanctions slavery (it is very good at prohibiting everything else except slavery).

Islam cannot be reformed because Islam is a weed. When weeds infest fertile lands you do not trim it or try to reform it. You do not decorate weeds like you would decorate a christmas tree. You deal with the roots. The roots of the poison Ivy that is Islam are Quran and Sunnah. The Mullahs, the clerics, the fanatics and extremists are merely what the root produces.

Nonetheless some people still to trim and gloss the leaves and place crystal balls on Islam today for different reasons :

- because they are afraid they want to portray a ``nice`` image of themselves.

- because they are the trojan horses that hide the Taliban in their stomachs. They say ``oh Islam does not say that`` but they know well that when the fortunes are reversed they would slay their own blood (like Ibrahim and the sahaba).

- they are ignorant of previous attempts by Mutazilites and Co. who succeeded in the beginning but their gains were reversed when the clerics re established their rule. The Mutazilities could not fight the clerics since they foolishly tried to wed Islam with modernism. When the time came to decide between the two the Clerics asked them ``Read this in the Quran! this is what Islam says, now will you choose Islam or will you choose your reason?``

The Mutazilites who chose humanity were summarily slaughtered and those who chose Islam were sent back to square one. You may succeed like the Mutazilites (only temporarily and in a very compromised manner). But in the end your compromises will get the better of you. If you try to argue from within their skewed universe of discourse you will always be the hunted, the compromiser, the giver. Choose humanity and do not compromise with irrationality.

Re: Fairdinkum #265

I understand and agree with your point about the importance of religious symbolism. Actually it can be extended to much more than just religion. Armies have elaborate rituals (e.g., mounting guard, presenting arms, marching in step, uniforms) all designed to instill in people a sense of uniqueness and camaraderie. Symbolism in religion would serve the purpose of underscoring the subordination of the individual to God and instilling in them a sense of awe, wonder and (probably) fear. All religions played (preyed?) on our innate fear of the unknown--what happens after we are dead--by offering us certainty. Follow rituals X, Y and Z and believe in Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and then you will be assured of life everlasting.

All right, so far so good. However, when certain rituals are clearly outdated and serve no useful purpose what so ever--e.g., why do women inherit less than men?--AND a society/religion refuses to adapt itself, then there is something very wrong here. I`ve made the point several times (nothing original here, far more intelligent people than I have been saying this for a long time) that Islam needs to have a major rethink on its positions on many issues. The unchanging message should be one that is relevant to all societies across time, not one that fixes the world according to the mores of 7th century arabs.

Regards.

PS: On a tangential note here, American Indians/Native Americans were horrendous conservers of nature. The only difference was that they were far too primitive technologically to do too much damage to their environment, unlike the white man. For example, until they took up the horse from the white man (if you call Spaniards white), the common bison hunting practice was to stampede a herd over a cliff. This would kill hundreds if not thousands, of animals and the tribe, of course, would then choose the best cuts of meat, leaving carcasses to rot for weeks. Given the relative scarcity of cliffs to drive bison over, the difficulty of killing bison with bows and arrows, and the increased speed and mobility afforded by horses, the tribes changed their hunting techniques to selective killing and then using all parts of the animal. Nothing particularly spiritual about this.

F_K #259

Isn`t listening to music haram in Islam? :)

Fuzair #215

Fuzair,

Thanks for your response. Your parents and I have much in common. They have adopted the best possible course of action, given the circumstances & the times we live in. Without a doubt your parents are good people :)

I just wanted to draw your attention to the philosophy/symbolism, embedded in some of the rituals of Islamic belief system. Some of the rituals such as five prayers a day or keeping Ramadan for a month may have much deeper meaning/philosophy than it may appear to a layperson. For example: Solitude has questioned the “killing” of animals the Islamic way… well, “killing” of animals is prohibited in Islam. Muslims are only allowed to sacrifice animals in the name of God and hence the term “Halal”…
There is a difference between killing and sacrificing animals… and that’s in the attitude. The way American Indians utilized “tatanka” as a gift of nature, and the way Europeans abused “tatankas” as a commodity (there to be exploited for material benefit, so they killed them in large numbers for their skins leaving the carcass on the ground to rot) is not the same is it? The act of “killing” may have been the same, but attitudes towards looking at “tatanka” were vastly different…

PM & Sadhana,

Sadhana, your questions are unanswered so far.

Sadhana & PM,

If one chooses to embark on the mission of questioning a faith or a religion [a futile discourse in my view] or if one wants to question some of the prevailing practices/rituals of a faith, the burden of comprehensive study/understanding of that particular faith/religion, its rituals, its philosophy, its symbolism, its history etc. is on the person challenging the religion/faith (or its rituals) rather than on the followers of the religion… wouldn’t you agree?

You guys have repeatedly pointed to the absence of rebuttals to Solitude’s stupid/silly questions [I don’t think they are hard/difficult questions threatening to bring down Islam as a religion :)]… Apart from, perhaps, a mediocre knowledge of “Muslim” interactors on this board what else does it mean?

Re: PM #238

I was actually trying to ignore F_K`s ravings in the hope that he might get tired and go away. Unlike some of the other posters I`ve answered, whom I assumed were actually interested in my answer, I think F_K is only interested in spouting venom.

Re: The Sadna-Tahmed dialogue on interest

To the best of my knowledge, the debate on whether Islam prohibts usury or whether it prohibits all interest was decided in favor of the latter. Check out any of the Islamic websites. The Shariat Court`s learned judges have decided to take yet another step in making sure that my poor benighted country takes a giant leap back into the abysss of the 7th century.

Regards.

Re: Farangi_Kush #234

I think that you labor under a misperception here. From the first (please look at my earlier posts), I have consistently said that one`s personal beliefs are one`s own and that I don`t care what belief system you choose as long as you do not try to impose its tenets on others. I was disagreeing with Solitude when he said that Islam was uniquely undesirable because it was totalitarian and intolerant of all other belief systems and points of view. I was merely pointing out that Judaism and Christianity, if interpreted literally and used as `how-to` blueprints for organizing a society, were just as intolerant and as much an instrument of social/thought control as is Islam.

Lubna`s posts merely echoed what I had said earlier: believe in whatever you want, as long as you don`t force me to believe in what you do. That is why I agreed with her. No Muslim such as yourself would ever believe in such a live-and-let-live philosophy. You, sir, firmly believe that the Koran is enough to provide an answer to any and every question that might ever arise anywhere. If that thought comforts you, then I am happy for you. However, all that I request is that you and those of your ilk refrain from trying to share that happiness with the rest of society.

I do not in any way, shape or form renounce my long-held belief that Islam, as it is most commonly practised today, is a retrograde force. Like all other religions, Islam is probably a positive, or at least benign enough, force as long as it is not used as a weapon against those that chose to not follow its tenets blindly. I choose to use my brain to think for my self. If you prefer, I am arrogant enough to think that I can, and I will, decide for myself how I wish to live my life. You would prefer to make that decision for me. That I reject categorically. The day that I decide to allow people such as your self to make that decison for me is the day that my brain turns into mush.

As you have no doubt surmised, my personal belief is that religion is a crutch used by those that are afraid to stand on their own two feet. Unlike such people, I have no fear of the unknown. I do not fear for my immortal soul in the afterlife because I do not think that there is one. I am willing to take my chances. However, if that crutch gives you comfort and assistance in living your life, then use it. What I object to is your wish to break my legs so that I have no choice but to use your crutch.

People such as yourself are as deluded and as fanatical as you claim Solitude to be. There is no possible way to reason with a fanatic and you are certainly one. I await your next hate-filled diatribe. Your words are as the idle wind and I am strongly armed in honesty (apologies for the misquotation).

Rsaxena #257
#244 and read it twice.

tahmed321 #252

The army of sincere believers in India is fighting RSS/Thackeray school of thought tooth and nail. And you have to notice, there is a distinction between what is political dialogue and what gets institutionalized. RSS/Thackeray haven`t gotten there yet and in any case they cannot pronouce religious edicts, they are politicians and activists not priests vested with religious or moral authority.

F_K #253
Its nice to have someone to write mails to, so that the real points raised elsewhere need not be addressed. But I need your preaching like I need a hole in the head. So lets say the feeling is mutual.

All the moral-indignation-and-shock-to-sensibilities-types:
Just as a matter of record(no fancy interpretations required here) if you didnot want `sadna` to interact on this board, all you moral people, why didn`t you protest when I was mentioned as far back as post, let me see #71?? I only came in around #112 inspite of that. Its nice to have decoy targets like me to attack whenever one needs to avoid answering uncomfortable questions. You certainly aren`t fooling me.

Sadhana

Sadna Begum:

You`re so kind :-).... still I ain`t letting that point disappear in the sea of darkness. It WILL be addressed, with full fervor and vim than the half-heartedness I have, for the rest of the `questions for the sake of questions` arguments. By now, I think I know your style very well. Please read the emphasis on `I think` than `I know.`

Thanks for your polite wishes.

sadna #240 you write ``As far as I know, interest was declared unIslamic by the highest legal authorities in Pakistan.``

I am not sure what the legal status is, but in practice it is alive and well in Pakistan even while lip service is paid. Even in Saudi Arabia, I have seen how ways are found around it through simple changes in terminology in at least one major organization.

You write: ``Its difficult to leave religion out of `zina/hudood` ordinances and laws against heresy, you would agree? If motivated mullahs are behind these unIslamic practices, well then the army of sincere motivated believers/defenders should be busy running those mullahs down, at least for their misinterpretations of one`s dearly held beliefs, if not for their illegitmate tactics of intimidation.``

The reason this ``army of sincere believers`` in Pakistan (I assume you mean people who do not share the mullah view of things, and which the voting record shows is the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis) is silent is the same as the reason the ``army of sincere believers`` in India (by which I mean people who do not subscribe to the Thackaray/RSS school of thought and who condemn some clearly evil acts undertaken in the name of Hinduism) often seem to remain silent (at least to outsiders): they have more practical things to worry about like earning a living and putting children through school then trying to fix things they read about in papers.

``To your great credit you donot consider questions and issues to be a threat to your faith. Thanks.``

I appreciate your kind words. You asked some very good questions yourself.