Headache and Heartburn

Re. Lubna (#285)

Phew! I think I just got a taste of what it’s like for others to read some of MY posts. Anyway, please don’t interpret my use of ‘others’, ‘most’ and ‘some’ to always include you. (Now if I’d made this clearer in the first place, you’d actually have made it to that iftari party last evening, nO? :)

Krashid: “Is CHOWK addictive and therefore against Islam and therefore should be forcibly banned.”

LOL! You may have meant this in jest, but I REALLY think it’s a valid question. Don’t get me wrong… I’m not interested in it’s validity wrt Islam-- leave that to the learned jurists to decide—- but this IS very addictive, and I suppose no addiction can be a good thing.

Tahmad321 (re. #284): What’s so illogical about providing a plausible rationale for an action?

Pankaj (or any other shrink out there) : Was wondering if there’s anything on karanta-envy in psych literature?

Rgds,

fairdinkum #265

``Apart from, perhaps, a mediocre knowledge of ?Muslim? interactors on this board what else does it mean? ``

I would rather not say what I think it means :-). Its surprising, you will admit, given that unlike in Hinduism where access to many scriptures was traditionally restricted to the priestly class, Christians and Muslims have long been able to read and interpret their holy books for themselves, am I right? Certainly thats true in the modern day.

Sadhana

tahmed321 #289
``If one accepts this logic, then the first question is also answered: the individual decides in his actions on how literally to take the scriptures``

To what do you ascribe existence of laws such as those in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran which impose restrictions on individuals based on what is Islamic and unIslamic? And why is there any Shariat court in any Muslim country?

Sadhana

sadna #283 you write: ``My original post carried a question on how literally are revealed scriptures to be taken. In the context of the general `lay` public and their freedom to practice religion as a private and individual matter, how is this important? ``

At least in Islam, the scriptures are meant to be read by the individual muslim, not by a special group of interpreters, no matter what their claims to piety or learning may be (much as some people would like to be in that role). So, I think it is only logical to assume that this implies that (at least in Islam) there is freedom to practice religion as a private and individual matter. If one accepts this logic, then the first question is also answered: the individual decides in his actions on how literally to take the scriptures. This is the best I can answer your question.

PM #238 & #245:

re: ``ranting`` - I`d use this term for anyone launching an aggressive and vociferous tirade against anything. Hell, even I rant (in the same sense) at times, (or should I say a lot of times (but ranting in a different sense)? Hey, can`t help it! :)) As for your objection to no one reacting to some other interactors in the same manner as they`ve adopted for Shiraz, well I can only speak for myself here. First of all, I reacted to Shiraz’s posts because they were addressed quite generally – not to ONE particular person. Second, I haven`t been around Chowk very much or for very long. I only started visiting this place a few months ago. Am yet not very familiar with all the interactors here, or the manner in which they interact. I havn’t come across many offensive posts (offensive to anyone) addressed generally – most of them are addressed to specific individuals. I think it is their business to answer to them. I can hold my own against such individuals, others should be able to do the same. :) That does not mean I am condoning what the offender is saying in any way.

As for the term `moderate Muslims` - now I can`t take credit for something I can`t lay claim to - credit has to go to Shiraz - his term. :) And I’d like to clarify one more thing: I am not expressing hatred towards anyone – I apologize if my posts imply otherwise. Maybe I need to be more careful about how I phrase my words.

[So all these recent complaints about Solitude`s supposed hateful motivations really seem irrelevant. The question, to me, is, should his motivations detract from the validity of his arguments?]

[What I see more than anything else here is moral indignation. Not unlike that exhibited by Solitude himself. The difference is that while he is willing to back up his assertions with `evidence` (though I am not saying they are bullet-proof), his opponents are content with analysing him, labelling him and caricaturing him...]

--No, they don’t detract from the validity of his arguments – I conceded to that in an earlier post as well. Yes, he does make a lot of sense in some of his posts – esp the one where he suggests those reforms. But his “motivations” do influence the way others react to his arguments. Call it moral indignation if you want. What do you expect when an issue such as religion is touched upon? Look, all I’m saying is religion already is a very sensitive issue for many, why make the debate more volatile by expressing personal hatred as well. Just stick to the argument. But then that’s the way I approach things – you’re right - I shouldn’t be expecting others to conform to my code of conduct. And no, I don’t have any idea what his upbringing must have been like, neither am I interested in knowing, so I am in no position to gauge whether or not it has anything to do with the way he is.

[Lubna, you say: [Why are some of us so hell-bent on proving the beliefs of others as being ``wrong``?! Believe in the ``rightness`` of your faith ALL you want but don`t come around preaching me on how ``wrong`` I am about MY beliefs.] I haven`t been able to understand this impatience with someone `preaching` yet....]

[Now pray tell, what effect does Solitude`s exercise of his right to preach have on you?? Is he blaring his words through a megaphone into your living room? Is he keeping your from praying or observing any other religious duties? Or is the effect more subliminal and worrying because some of his words make sense?]

--Go back and read my post. THAT WHOLE SECTION OF THE POST WAS //NOT IN REGARDS TO SOLITUDE!!! Or any other particular person for that matter! It was a general comment in response to some of the points made by Umairr and was basically addressed to ANYONE who, yes, does go around physically preaching directly to others about how they should perform their religious duties. I was simply whining because I’m sick and tired of being told I’m not following my faith in the correct manner – not only by Muslims but by non-Muslims as well! (Does NOT include members of my family by the way.)

Let me give you an example. Presently I`m residing in a country where, during Ramadhan, NO ONE is aloud to eat, drink or smoke ANYWHERE in view of the public at ANY time between suhoor and iftaar, (unless there are valid reasons such as age, medical reasons, etc). Any one who breaches this code of conduct will be levied with a fine of anything between approx $300 and $1500 (I’ve converted the local currency into US $) in addition to a night in a jail cell. I think this law is extremely unfair because the state is imposing IT’S religious will upon others. Religion as far as I’m concerned is a very personal matter. Whether or not a person chooses to fast is no one else’s business. And since the majority of the population in this small state is expatriate, there is a huge portion of the residing population who are non-Muslims as well. As far as my limited knowledge of Islam goes, there is no requirement for such a law to be implemented. I might be wrong about this – everyone, please feel free to correct me.

[You and scout repeatedly voice that patently western liberal ethic, `to each his own`, yet fail to recognize that freedom of speech is intrinsically linked to that.]

--Like I said, my comments were not attacking Solitude or anyone else’s comments on this board. Say all you want to over here. As you yourself said, words produced in this cyberworld make little difference to us in our lives. No one can stop you from saying whatever you want to, wherever you want to. But freedom of speech can go to hell when someone, anyone, (physically) comes up to me and lectures me on how I should be practising my beliefs – they WILL be told to stuff it. And that is what I was complaining about.

[But in none of Solitude`s rants, abrasive as they may be, have I come across unsubstantiated accusations or false evidence.]

--Have I at any point accused Shiraz for making unsubstantiated accusations or presenting false evidence? I DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE IN ANY POSITION TO DO SO!!! You will notice my objections are not concerned with the “facts” of his argument, they are more concerned with his stance and the manner in which he’s been presenting his argument. First of all, I am not ignorant to the fact that I do not have ENOUGH knowledge about Islam to go around arguing over “facts” so freely – I’ll leave this exercise to the more “learned” individuals to engage themselves in. And second, I’m not interested in doing so! Maybe if I considered myself to be an expert in this area I might have been more interested as well.

[WHERE ARE HE REBUTTALS??]

--Think the above answers this question. :) But I will discuss and debate with him where I do feel I have something to say. (Heheh… even if it’s picking on contarcdicting statements.)

[Calling a spade a spade may not always be a polite thing to do, but it is hardly passing judgement.]

--Again, I DID mean passing judgment – I didn’t mean expressing ones views/opinions. I DO consider it as passing judgment when others tell me I am not a “true” believer just because I happen to wear clothes other than shalwar kameez or play sports or speak English or work with men or travel alone.

[In a sense, the nautre of the opposition to Solitude illustrates his main thesis: Very few are able to tolerate an opposing viewpoint.]

--No, I won’t “agree” with an opposing viewpoint, but I will “tolerate” it. All I had a problem with was Solitude denouncing the use of force in Islam while he himself was suggesting use of force for his “cause” (at least that’s how I interpreted his statements) and I was simply highlighting this. But anyway, the man himself has clarified this “misinterpretation” since.

[BUT WHAT ABOUT OTHERS?]

--Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a DAMN! Call me selfish, uncaring, disgusting, WHATEVER! I have enough migraines of my own to deal with – I really cannot afford to make how others practice Islam a concern of MINE. There are a million and one issues I could turn into causes for myself but for me personal issues come before any “social” causes. Once I’ve cleared the messes in my life, only then will I turn my attention to the messes of others. And it took me a LONG time to learn this lesson. I know what my limitations are. Shiraz wants to make this issue a concern of his, he’s more than welcome to. The fact that I think it’s a futile cause is a matter of personal opinion. But I AM willing to discuss and debate with him over this issue. Putting words into action is not my concern.

[If Solitude is biased and fails to recognize some of the more sublime truths of Islam, he nonethelss asks some very pertinent questions about its more dubious aspects. However, even the suggestion that there may actually exist some undesirable aspects seems to be threatening to some.]

--No, I do not consider the suggestion to be threatening. Others I can’t speak for. Again, as I said, if proving the validity of my beliefs was a concern of mine, I would have argued back just as vociferously. But I’m not interested in doing so.

[And so while you visit your nearby mosque in Jersey or Delhi for some of uplifiting, inspiring, khutbas this Ramzaan...]

--Now pray do tell how you`ve been able to reach the assumption that I visit mosques? Have I AT ANY POINT, prior to this post, alluded to what my beliefs are? Or how strictly I adhere to them? No, am not offended, just somewhat amused. So disagreement with Shiraz makes me a devout Muslim? :)

As for the points that follow, I agree, as I`ve always done, there ARE issues that need to be examined. But, as I`ve also stated earlier, they need to be examined within a framework that includes religious AND OTHER FACTORS such as social, cultural, political, economical, etc. These other factors cannot be ignored if religious attitudes of any society are to be analyzed.

[I think you misunderstood my use of the infinitives. To rephrase, modern `moderate` Muslims living in pluralistic societies DO reject/ignore .... in order to live peacably.]

--Yes, I do agree with you on that. And I have no objections over it either.

Whew! Sorry for the long post! (apologies to rsaxena as well)

And thank you (for the greetings).

Fairdinkum (#265):

“If one chooses to embark on the mission of questioning a faith or a religion … or if one wants to question some of the prevailing practices/rituals of a faith, the burden of comprehensive study/understanding of that particular faith/religion, its rituals, its philosophy, its symbolism, its history etc. is on the person challenging the religion/faith (or its rituals) rather than on the followers of the religion… wouldn’t you agree?”

fairdinkum, UNDERSTANDING the practices/rituals of a faith may require a comprehensive study of it’s philosophy, symbolism etc., QUESTIONING it’s validity based on observable effects DOES NOT. You don’t need to be an architect and historian to tell that the Parthenon is in ruins; you can observe it easily enough! (though you might benefit from the study of Grecian history) You can be a doctor and specialize in diseases, but hardly need to be one to tell if someone’s sick).

Remember, this is not empirical science we are talking about, nor a theoretical one based on tested axioms. All very well, because certain things are not in the realm of (modern) science anyway. But an attendant risk of such non-rational exercises is for elaborate theologies and philosophies to be constructed on basically flawed premises and totally nonsensical reasoning. All very well if they appeal to one’s non-rational side without causing harm (though it’s always tough to tell if they do or don’t)

But not so harmless when it leads to what we (with a consensus) would consider morally/ethically wrong actions and attitudes. No need for examples here.

Ramazan-ul-mubarak Mubarak, mate!

PM

Solitude #217:

[If you understood my replies to say ``force muslims to not practise Islam`` then I was wrong. I do not advocate using force but displaying sporadic acts of religious disobediance. Acts that let the followers and their leaders know how the detractors feel about Islam.]

--Thank you for clarifying your point of view because yes, that is how I understood some of your statements. And THAT is what I had a problem with. As far as your desire to display your discontent with Islam is concerned, I personally don’t have anything against that. If you are not content with something, you have every right to express your discontent in any manner you want to. You yourself will be responsible for any consequences of your actions though. You say you advocate displaying sporadic acts of religious disobedience – go ahead. You won’t be the first one to do so (as you yourself have illustrated by giving examples). And you won’t be the last one either. Neither will you be alone - at this very instant I personally know some individuals who’d be more than happy to join you in this “movement” of yours. But what I fail to understand is what you hope to achieve by bawling around about how bad the Islamic system is. No, am serious – really would like to know. Yes, I know, this is one way to make it known to everyone that there are individuals who reject the fundamentals of Islam and regard it as a monster that needs to be defeated, etc. But doesn’t everyone know that such individuals already exist? Has it made any difference? And it’s not gonna make any difference until and unless you concentrate on individual issues. Since you have taken it upon yourself to work for bringing about reform to get rid of various injustices, instead of debating with others about Prophet Muhammad’s character, instead of debating over the interpretation of an ayah from the Quran, how about debating over HOW you can get rid of various ills that are carried out in the name of religion? You mentioned the Islamic method of slaughtering being cruel – how about educating others on the alternative methods that can be adopted? You mentioned maiming, how about fighting for that cause, (just the way groups are fighting to get rid of the electric chair in the west)? You get my drift.

[One suggestion for reform :

- imparting critical skills that will allow Muslims to deconstruct the Quran.

- a less sanctimonious, violent attitude towards criticism.

- teaching constant self-searching, self- critical as a skill.]

--Now you’re talking sense! :) I agree these ARE fundamental changes that need to be introduced but don’t you see how the underlying principle for these reforms is EDUCATION? Education, (not literacy), is a prerequisite to a very large extent for acquiring most abilities such as the ones you’ve suggested. Moreover, to what extent a person develops most of these skills depends on that person’s character and mindset, which in turn (again, to a very large extent) are a result of the person’s experiences in life and upbringing. Without intending to sound conceited, I consider myself to be more open to criticism, and far more capable of self-searching and self-criticism than many others my age from similar backgrounds, (at the same time I consider myself not even half as capable of these skills as some others). My religious principles have little to do with this ability to question, understand and criticize my feelings, thoughts and actions. But getting back to my original point, education - (and I don’t mean Jay’s k for kafir education – I mean an education devoid of any religious biases) - does lay a foundation upon which a person can then further develop the necessary skills needed for questioning and reasoning and arriving at conclusions on his/her own initiative. Education influences a person’s attitude towards issues considerably.

I don’t see how displaying sporadic acts of religious disobedience will do any good for an individual who doesn’t even know what the contents of the Quran are. Sticking to Pakistan, the vast majority of our population can’t even read and write their names, how can you expect them to be able to read and understand the Quran, let alone deconstruct it? So yes, critical skills such as being able to READ and WRITE do need to be imparted before you can even begin to reason about the contents of the Quran with individuals in our society. Once these individuals have developed the ability to read and write, educate them about not just religion but everything that affects them – their legal and fundamental rights, their status in society, the power they can exercise to influence economic and social change – I mean the list is endless. And once they’ve been educated and have been exposed to what the reality is, they WILL question anything that doesn’t make sense to them. Then trust their judgment – it won’t be that easy for the mullahs or peer sahibs or their landlords to influence the decisions of these individuals anymore. So don’t you feel you can set the ball rolling for the reforms you desire by concentrating your efforts more on providing basic rights such as a good education to the individuals you have such a hard time watching leading miserable lives?

RSaxena #223 & #225:

[Are we in kindergarten here? ``He took my chocolate first so I took his``....I do this sometimes but I`m still maturing.]

--Can`t say about you but I sure am! Not exactly KG but thereabouts. :P And what makes you think I’ve matured completely?! Puhleeeez!!

[Now it has less of a need, particularly if we can have economic prosperity and good education in science, art, and math for everyone. People will learn to respect each other without having to be threatened with god`s punishment. Unfortunately, the armpit of the world isn`t ready for this yet.]

--Well of course they`re not ready for this! How can you expect illiterate, uneducated and unquestioning people to look beyond their prejudices when they don’t even HAVE the opportunity or the means to ``learn``? Provide them with the necessary means, give them the opportunity to develop their OWN minds (rather than have them controlled by mullahs who have their own vested interests to take care of), and eventually they WILL learn to respect others without fearing their god`s punishment. Don`t you yourself go on about how a lack of a basic infrastructure is the root cause of most of the evils in society? When discussing the influences of religious beliefs on the outlook of an individual or a society, one has to take into consideration other factors as well - religion cannot be considered as an independent cause.

tahmed321 #277
My original post carried a question on how literally are revealed scriptures to be taken. In the context of the general `lay` public and their freedom to practice religion as a private and individual matter, how is this important?

Well, if the government and state-sponsored religious bodies like the Shariat court in Pakistan are in the process of institutionalizing into law and government interpretations of Islamic law/tenets, a practice supported by moderate political parties, maybe it is important.

There is no equivalent situation in India. Neither is India declared itself a Hindu republic, nor is the state interpreting scriptures and putting it into law nor are Hindu religious priests entering into the political/public arena touting their religious authority as power. The BJP had infact made a uniform civil code for all irrespective of religion a main campaign plank which it has put in the background due to coalition pressures from parties with Muslim support.

What happens across the fence is irrelevant to the issue here.

Sadhana

Someday there will be no Muslim. Someday there will be no monotheist nor polytheist. Someday we will come together! a united humanity in love with themselves and each other and in love with the world around them ...

_Together_ we will go our way
_Together_ we will leave someday
_Together_ your hand in my hands
_Together_ we will make our plans

_Together_ we will love the beach
_Together_ we will learn and teach
_Together_ change our pace of life
_Together_ we will work and strive

There where the air is free
We`ll be what we want to be
Now if we make a stand
We`ll find our promised land

Solitude #268 you write ``How was Sudan able to revive slavery ? Sudan is Islamic - Islam sanctions slavery ``

Someone trying to provide an example of an illogical statement could not have done a better job than what you did here.

sadna: I would agree that Pakistan has a bigger danger of self-appointed spokesmen for God taking over than India, and thanks to a series of near-criminal dictators and would-be dictators they have already have made some inroads in our institutions. But then, BJP (with many RSS members) is also in power in India. So the differences between India and Pakistan are not black and white, but shades of gray. What is important is that the rest of us see these people for what they are, and not excuse them simply because they are ``ours``. And we do what we can to building up goodwill between people on South Asia. There are too many poor people in the sub-continent, and there is so much potential for making our part of the world a better place to live in for us to do otherwise.

Rsaxena #258 Thanks for the greetings. Actually, I am sure, in keeping with the spirit of religious occasions, you meant to greet everyone, particularly those with whose posts may have seemed offensive.

fairdinkum #266 To your question, I add the addendum: ... and proclaiming that you are in a light-hearted mood when recommending music to women?

zaynab:#254

Thank you very very much indeed.Malcolm X(Malik Shahbaz) did more for muslim causes than several mediocre mullahs bunched together.

May Allah shower his blessings on this hero of Islam.

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wassalaam

fuzair:

Nobody can go back to 7th century.If so,then those working with the interest system are living in the days before christ,before interest prohibition came into effect.

Each & everyone uses their own brain.just as you do.No one is an illiterate savage as you claim.

Confront the people who are objecting to the life-style you have chosen.Better still,avoid them.It is the individuals you have to oppose not the religion.In North America it is called peer pressure.Are you sure that you never ridiculed and taunted someone who would refuse to have a drink for religious reasons,or insists on halaal food when in your company.This,you may not realise is also `telling someone what to do).

Millions succumb to the orgy of organised-

cult of fad & fashion and walk tall & proud to be part of it.In Pakistan eating a Mcdonald burger is the achievement of a lifetime for some and visiting Disneyland their Umrrah.

It is just not culturally right or polite to eat & drink while someone is fasting just as it might look odd to you when someone announces his/her desire to pray(while fasting)in a stripclub & a bar.

Whereas other religions zealously try to win converts;muslims,sometimes over-zealously,would spare no effort to declare each other non-muslims.So a threat to quit or hang around the no man`s land is quite a waste of time with such a bunch.The corporation`s stock is soaring and investors keep flocking to it without the lure of money or medicine AND the most pathetic performance by its honchos.Imagine,what it could do with someone like you to guide & help them.

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As an analogy.

Someone born in US is a US citizen by birth.Remember he/she has never taken an oath even when 21 or over.Most of such are not aware of the provisions of the constitution but even they cannot use their ignorance of the law as an excuse,leave alone partial or marginal subscription to the constituition.

So how does a born American becomes Non-American.Only by renouncing the citizenship AFTER first becoming a citizen in another country.To work against US constituition or US interest is not without serious consequences.

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You & I AND Solitude are all tired & frustrated because of the low esteem we are held in the comity of nations.So we are all trying to find solace in our way to be a success at both the secular as well the spiritual level.Contrary to what you might imagine,I am also a `compromiser` in my lifestyle(it is difficult to adjust for me now.My father & uncles are a rare combination of pukka angraiz AND pukka musalmaan.Their early madressa education,like the Quaids`,was a tremendous help in achieving this balance)

For muslims these are very trying times but a lot less than what Iqbal & Haali went through.Let us work hard & together.I never have and I never will,hurt anyones` sensibilities IF they do not attack Islam;especially those non-members who do not belong to the club or are not paying their dues.And we are not the ones to turn the other cheek.

(In `advanced` western countries the khusraas have given a new interpretation to this biblical homily about cheek););):)

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``Uthaa naa sheesha garaan-e farang kay ehsaan

sifaal-e hind sey meena o jaam paidaa kur``

Allama Iqbal

On receiving the first letter from Javed,son,from England.

tr: Be not forever be obliged to the technological wizardry of the farangi to drink from their glasses

Create your own technology from the clay of India and have your own decanters & wine-cups.

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A very happy ramzaan-ul-mubarak to you.

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WASSALAAM

fairdinkum:

Your smile says it all.Let me try to turn it into a laugh.

From a poem:``PUKKA GAANA`` by syed Muhammad Jafri

Last line:(lampooning pukka-gaana singers)

`` Yaa Muhammad Mustafa hon aap pur laakhon salaam

Ubb huaa maloom kyoon gaana huaa hum pur haraam``

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wassalaam



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