Headache and Heartburn

krashid:#111

My very dear well meaning chowk-friend:

We will not get anywhere if we see things in JI-PPP context.

Only Individuals be appraised on the basis of them being ``Ameen`` or not.

The party system all over the world is rotten to the core.By its` very definition they are trying to offer a choice between two `truths` and promising to deliver that which is far removed from the constituency.

It is individuals who must be evaluated in the light of the Universal Truth(according to ALL beliefs & non-beliefs).After all,do we all not select an employee NOT on the basis of his/her `religion` but the past performance,trustworthiness,honesty( & not that fancy/meaningless term `integrity) etc etc.

The one who received the title of the ``Ameen`` was so even before he received the Revealition.Is that not sufficient example for us & others to follow?

Muslim history is rife with the ``Ulemaas`` in bed with the despots.How does that encourage,discourage,condone or contradict how you & I decide to behave.

My Islam is totally independant of Pakistan,ANY party,ANY sect,or any other filial or professional cosiderations.It is above & beyond any temporal considerations.



And I feel embarrassed to talk like this.I did it on your repeated prying into it.I do not find it very rewarding to talk about myself this way.

May Allah forgive me for any digressions.

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In matters of love & heart it is futile to look for `rationality`.I hope the time not comes when I have to provide a DNA-based reason to justify the beauty of my beloved.

``Jo tulub pey ahd-e vafa kiya to vo Quadre rusm-e vafa gayee

Sur-e aam jubb huey mudda-ee,tho savab-e sidque o safe gaya.``

..................................FAIZ AHMED FAIZ.

trans(for others):When allegiance was sought by command then the spirit of fealty was just nought.

And when such claims abounded,there was no reward for Truth & Honesty.



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WASSALAAM.

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sadna:

* The `democratization` of the world in the last century has meant that ideas and issues are more likely to prevail than events and personalities. *

I certainly hope so, sadhna. Unfortunately, there is little empirical evidence to suggest that the ideas of peace, universal amity, and progress are winning over ideas of war, division, and fundamentalism. Democracy of polity and democracy of spirit in which every human being is to be treated equally irrespective of her race, religion, and color appear to have no appeal to a huge number of people. And I see no indication that they ever will.

I worry that a few secularists get together in tiny, hermetically sealed rooms and sing sweet nothings to one another while those with loaded guns, sharpened knieves, and blazing bombs repeat beliefs of martyrdom and celebrate blood-stained victories in bulging tent-cities spreading like locust outside. There have always been oddball secularists in every society since time immemorial. Is there any reason to believe that they hold any more power today than they did before, say a hundred years ago?

Krashid & Farangi_Kush,

I thought you guys were soul mates. Maybe you are, but it seems like you are sniping at each other. Maybe I`m misunderatanding you . I`m at a disadvantage since I dont understand your elegant Urdu poetry. A sincere request, if you dont mind, please provide us with an english translation so we can enjoy its nuances too. Alas, too much ba ba blacksheep in me-:)

Umairr #109 They say that God had originally planned to have Christ born in Italy, but changed the venue since three wise men and a virgin could not be found. I guess this is the same reason that we are unable to get a savior for Pakistan (I am thinking only of the wise-men part, and no slur intended on the virtuosity of the women-folk).

Briefly : If you feel Islam is used as an excuse then remove the excuse. Why give the Khalifa (who is selected because of his religion AND his tribe : Quraish) the chance to have power over you ? Why give Islam so much power over yourselves that clerics and ``Ulama``(scholars) invoke it to wage war and sow seeds of hatred between you and your fellows (shias, sunnis, ahmedis, hindus, jews, christians, buddhists, non religious people)?

An Alim / Imam / Qazi / Mullah exercizes power over you by asking you to follow Islam. Islam is the framework within which psychotic men thrive. The rest of you do not even practise or know enough about Islam - then why not remove the framework ?

A Khalifa / a dictator / a tyrant makes your lives a livinng hell by massacring in the name of Islam - why not make that name obsolete ? You cannot know Islam better than the scholars ( since according to them they have spent their lifetime in one madrassah or dar ul ulum after another).

They come to the door of your mind and talk about obvious truths (like ``give charity to the poor``) and ask for your unconditional submission to the creed. Since you cannot find anything wrong with this obvious truth you say ``why not?``.

But once you are lured into this framework with baits your minds are assaulted ``Why don`t you pray 5 times a day ? Why don`t you get at up at 5 in the morning? What is wrong with you that you are only concerned about fabricating chips and discovering quasars but care so little about what I have to say about Islam? come on now! give charity to the mosque and the Sipah Sahaba and the Hamas! don`t you know other people are suffering? and you are enjoying your life driving your Toyota!? Look I don`t even own a car! did the Prophet own a car? no! live simply brother ... oh I mean enjoy life but don`t forget about me oops I mean about Islam ... now I would like to bring my 15 children and 3 wives to the US so that I can teach these heatens and infidels about the TRUE way. Surely you want to learn about the true way, right?``

Solution : abandon their mosques, they will try to invade the public squares, ignore them in the public squares and they will use loud speakers and knock on your doors. The solution is going on the offensive - giving the Imams/ Qazis / Mullahs more productive things to do, abolishing state sponsored pay checks for Imams (would you as a shia or sunni or ahmed want to pay an Imam who says that all shias and sunnis are out of Islam etc.?) completely remove the idea of Islam and replace it with a benign ``spirituality`` (if you must) that includes all.

tahmad321 #115: I think you are quite correct. People continue to point to lack of education, high population growth and other problems, that most third world countries have, as the root cause of Pakistan`s current situation. I think the main cause is lack of honest, sincere and competent leadership. Pakistan has yet to have an honest, sincere and competent leader (after Jinnah).

All the countries that have made it out, or are in the process of making it out of the third world have done so when somehow or the other honest, sincere and competent leadership made it to the top. In some countries it was a military dictatorship (Korea), in others it was civilian dictatorship (China, Singapore), or a civilian semi-dictatorship (Malaysia), and in some a democratically elected leadership. Pakistan has tried all of the above methods, and has yet to produce even below average leadership.

I think Pakistanis are too forgiving, have too much of a belief in fate and destiny, believe that real life actually starts after death, and are too willing to accept anyone more powerful than themselves as their leader (regardless of how they are exploited by these leaders). The first, second and third trait we have inherited from our Islamic history and background. The fourth trait we have inherited from our Indian history and background. This creates an ideal environment for powerful corrupt people to make it to the top.

This is what I think will happen in two years (just a guess, not necessarily what I think is the very ideal situation):

Local bodies elections will be held on a non-party basis. Provincial elections will be held on a party basis, with the chief minister being elected through some kind of a direct vote. National elections will be held on a party basis, with the Prime Minister being elected through some sort of a direct vote. Each party will be able to nominate one candidate for the Prime Minister ship. The current govt. will ban all the leaders it considers to be corrupt (NS, BB etc.), and will ensure that the one candidate from each party for the top slot is clean (and acceptable to them); perhaps Imran Khan from PTI/NAPP/TI alliance, Mian Azhar from the new PML, don`t know who from PML(N), don`t know who from PPP, some decent guy from MQM (Altaf Bhai will nominate one of his thugs, but his name will be rejected), Qazi Hussain from a joint religious party, Leghari from the Milli party, and Afsandyar Wali from ANP.

I think the current govt. wants an alliance of PTI/NAPP/TI to win, with Imran Khan becoming the PM, supported by Asghar Khan and Khattak. This is the only clean honest middle of the road group in the mix, in my opinion. Imran Khan is a philanthropist, Khattak (I believe) was the head of the Pakistan Human Rights Commission) and Asghar Khan is reputed to be an honest man and was the person who built the Pakistan Air Force on modern lines. PTI did win the third highest number of votes in the country in the last election (even though it did not win a seat).

There will be a National Security Council consisting of the three Chiefs, CJCS, President, PM, and three or four ministers. They will have the authority to fire the PM and dissolve the govt. under orders from the President. So Prime Minister will run the day-to-day affairs, but President + COAS will be able to fire him. This is how it has always been behind closed doors. But now it will be officially made part of the Constitution, so that the rest of the world doesn`t complain when the govt. is dissolved. 13th amendment will be removed. Musharraf will either give himself an extension as the COAS, or he will become the President.

A retired Musharraf as the President, Lt. Gen Amjad as the COAS, Imran Khan as the PM; that`s my guess. This is the scenario the current govt. wants, in my opinion. I don`t think Imran Khan has any chance of being elected PM through a parliamentary system, because his party will not win enough seats. However, he may win in a direct national election, especially if NS, BB etc. are disqualified.

Farangi Kush:

Beautiful Couplet! I have not been an avid reader of Faiz`s Poetry except for the following in particular, and few others [There is a lot of sadness in his words and I cannot take it. ]:

Dil-ae-Mun Masafir-ae-Mun

Last Stanza:

Prem #117
What you say may be true but let me elaborate on what I meant by democratization.

Your terms ``Democracy of polity and democracy of spirit``

Whichever `side` one is on, it is no longer possible to stamp out any point of view merely by use of strongarm tactics whether `` loaded guns, sharpened knieves, and blazing bombs`` or anything else. Here is a useful line from Hindi movies ``Kis kis kaa moonh band karthe phiroge`` meaning there is only so far one can go(and thats not very far) by shutting others up whether wrt politics or religion or a discussion board.

Sadhana

Farangi Kush #116

Excuses and excuses.

If you go by Islamic history lets dissect it in its time period. At that time all the powerful forces like Rome (Constantanipole) and Persia were ruled by kings.

As you are well aware of Hadith that with time and each passing generation people will be less and less better.

As far as prophet PBUH is concerned, he was a human and a prophet PBUH also. And element of Wahi was also there to guide him. Which I don`t think Islamist of today have yet claimed (May be in future we might see the bigots doing that also). Even then he used to consult his colleagues in all matter.

After the death of Prophet PBUH, the Caliphs were elected in different manner. But one thing was certain, that Caliph was to be elected by consensus or ``Baiyah`` of free Muslims. There was a lot of verbal fights at the time of election of Abu-Bakr RZAH but ultimately with arguments etc almost all agreed on him. I never knew that he brought General Zia to put the Danda of Islam in everybodies back to accept him.

I think second or third caliph was elected among a six member team, by consensus of not only the team but ``Bayah`` of the people also. Even then there was a lot of agitation against Uthman RZAH and ultimately martyred.

Ali`s Caliphate was not accepted by majority of people and he has to shift his capital to Kufa.

And then there was a fight with Muawiya RZAH who was in Syria.

You will accept that those people I named were the torch bearer of Islam and not only understood Islam better but were directly trained by Prophet PBUH.

The premises I conclude are that all Muslims were considered not only equal, but their opinion were also of importance.

Our Fiqh is a product of the time when Ulema tried to reconcile King`s (Muslim) rule with Islamic concept. But as it was fossilized, it is presumed that King`s rule is the ultimate in Islam. The same thinking is evident in all Sunni Islamic parties with Fiqh as their basis. The majority Sunni rule of King was threatend by Qaramati (Ismaili), Shias and Khawaraj etc. It resulted in the direction of Sunni philosophy not only for reconciling King`s rule but protect against the agitation and other`s point of view to the point that it is alleged that Protection of rule to keep society in harmony is more important than Islamic credentials of Rulers. That is why a large number of rulers had large Harems, Wine and Women were common. And job of so called Ulema was to justify it.

The same progeny is now trying to do the same thing in current settings.

If you believe all Muslims are equal, they have equal rights. Also what is the method of reaching at a consensus is debatable. But it cannot be by putting millions of Bengali under sword in the name of Islam.

If you think that your understanding of Islam is better. So be it. In the end I have to face my God and you have to face yours. And on that day, truth and falsehood will be seperated.

So have fun in the name of Islam. Before you lot of christians have tried salvation by punishing themselves, thinking they will have their reward from God for this.

Islam has not come by the way to implement God`s will, otherwise Prophet PBUH would not allow at least on two occasions ``Mutta`a``.

Umair #120

Why you are so fond of imposing will of a few people on whole nation.

According to you civilians are much sharper than Army men. So that takes a very important part of your argument. Meaning you don`t want to put dumb on the whole nation because they are sincere (although I doubt that they are sincere. They are sincere as long as they get the lion`s share and their sinceerity is for this lion`s share).

Historically suppression of rights of people by Army men resulted in irreparable harm to nation. In the form of East Pakistan debacle, corruption, Klashinkov and Heroine trade (In which Army personnel were drowned to their neck). Moreover any rule suppressing the rights of people was justified by mostly half pseudo intellectuals rather than majority of people. Like Ayub Khan was warmly embraced by Jamat-e-Islami in his early years (and when he kicked their a-ss they became against him). Yahya Khan and Zia-ul-Haq were termed Mard-e-Momin by Jamat-e-Islami. And they are waiting in wings to become part and parcel of the new Sincere Pervez Musharraf.

Let history put its verdict. As it has done in Baghdad, European renaissance, and East Pakistan. May be you live for another 50 years. As people living 50 years back half pseudo intellectuals determined the path of Pakistan to our detriment. We are putting our effort so that either the future becomes bleak or bright.

I have no faith in single individual only transforming the whole nation. It is the whole nation transforming their whole destiny themselves.

Umairr, as always, I read with interest your analysis on the possiblities of Pakistan`s future leaders. A retired Musharraf as the President, Lt. Gen Amjad as the COAS, Imran Khan as the PM, supported by Asghar Khan and Khattak !!! Do I dare hope that this may actually come about!

As you may have guessed, I am a staunch supporter of both Imran Khan and Gen. Musharraf.

I know less about Khattak, but Asghar Khan would be another great positive.

As always, I do not want to think about it, but want to do something to help this come about - this is exciting to just think about!

I wish to know more about how this process may take place. Would it be a great imposition upon you to write and elaborate on this?

Glad of the topic change from Solitude as well.

After reading the wild, witless accusations in your post, Solitude, I realized: substitute the name of Solitude for ``jay`` or ``sadna`` or ``rsaxena`` or ``shankar`` and things suddenly made sense.

Perhaps I am wrong - if so I apologize. In any case, do some real reading, get some real facts and some real experiences of Muslims and then write something - it may have some weight of substance.

Sherdil #125: Please see my reply on F.R. Khan`s thread.

``After reading the wild, witless accusations in your post, Solitude, I realized: substitute the name of Solitude for ``jay`` or ``sadna`` or ``rsaxena`` or ``shankar`` and things suddenly made sense.``

My experience in interacting with the above has been different in each case. Jay, I gave up on a long time ago. I am not sure what his motivations are, and I cannot figure out his replies. Too complicated for me. RSexana seems like an intelligent guy, judging from his replies to all non Pakistan-India issues. However, he seems to be on a mission to ensure that every criticism of India (even if it is objective and correct) is countered by a criticism of Pakistan, on Chowk. Sadna`s comments are actually quite objective, knowledgeable and principled on almost all issues (except Kashmir). The moment the discussion reaches Kashmir, for some reason, she seems to throw all her human rights and anti-coloniasm principles out the door; I don`t know why. Shankar is probably one of the most objective and cool-headed (if not the most objective and cool-headed) commentator on this website.

Just my opinion and experience. In any case, I am a big supporter of all Indians interacting on this site, regardless of their points of view. It gives everyone (Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshi(s), Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christians etc.) a chance to pick each other`s brains.

krashid #124: Either you are completely misunderstanding my posts, or I am completely misunderstanding yours. One of us has a limited understanding of the English language; and I am having a difficult time figuring out which one that maybe.

I have only pointed out what I think may happen in two years. I have not suggested this is what I desire to happen. In fact, I specifically stated (just for your clarification :)), in my previous reply:

``This is what I think will happen in two years (just a guess, not necessarily what I think is the very ideal situation):``

So I am only stating what I think may happen. I don`t think it is a crime to state that.

MUSHARAF FOR PRESIDENT,

In the reign of musharaff, the mohajir ataturk, this is what happened, from dawn of today,

Take another case reported in Dawn (page 2, Nov 19): 20-year-old Nuzhat Khatoon from Golra was burned alive by her husband and mother-in-law. Only after considerable efforts of the Progressive Women`s Association of Islamabad, a case has been registered by Golra police. Even the Abbottabad Deputy Commissioner was apparently deaf to the cries of the dying woman.`` On page 4 in the same issue: Bashiran Bibi has been sentenced to 25 years rigorous imprisonment and Rs 50,000 fine for killing her husband.``

The role of press is invaluable, newspapers have the power to raise questions, launch discussions. They have the duty to educate the public, to stimulate readers to think. Why has no correspondent asked questions in these cases?

According to the `State of Human Rights in 1999`, the annual report by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, the incidence of honor killing clearly saw an increase during the year. It is not only upto NGOs working on women`s rights to be concerned, we should all be worried and cry out.

DR BARBARA TEN KATE

Khanpur

YLH #188 ``Aisha how long are your rejected Indian Muslim suitors going to take it out on Pakistan?``

Ha! Ha! Good one.

Umairr, sherdil #126
All the `witless` fraticidal wars of succession in present Pakistan suddenly make a lot of sense.

Sadhana

http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/20001125/iin25031.html
A secularist spectre is looming over Pak -- it`s on board a bus