Headache and Heartburn

sadna #130

Good stuff! :) Those who are saying that women should work in respectable professions actually oppose women in workforce all together. Bunch of hypocrites..

Dear Egalitarian Brahmin,

Let the Phoenix give you his own example:

I have 8 fishes and every 3-4 weeks, their fishing tank gets dirty. To them, their fish tank is their earth, their world. Every 4 weeks, judgement day arrives, (tank is dirty) and the angel of death arrives (my small green fishing net) and carries them through space and time (my corridor which comes between my bathroom and the fish tank). There I put them inside the large white bathing tub where there is nothing but pure white (Alemay Bala- Alemay Sijeen, the places where souls are held prior to judgement day). Mean while, I clean the fishing tank, add my medicine and add new decoration pieces. Then the green angel comes back again, takes these `souls` through space and time and puts them back into this nice and shiny place (the cleaned up tank-or heaven).

Now the fishes don`t understand that this creature just cleaned up their home and that was it but they will come up with this explanation because there intellect only allows them to understand something along those lines. (they are one smart bunch of goldfishes).

The moral of the story. I and we don`t understand everything but we recognise our shortcomings and have enough humility to accept the barriers of our own intellect. And maybe, this heaven and hell and Allah or God (whatever you may call him- there is only one of Him) is out of our comprehension but He exists. Period.

Take care and there`s more to follow.

Omar Phoenix.

Mr. egalitarian_brahmin,

You have no idea what you have gotten yourself into!

On my part, I found the following the most brilliant analysis of religion in a very long time:

``If all children in the world were taught with amazing sincerity and convinction by their parents that there existed an invisible door-keeper outside every house and it guarded the individuals inside, and a, b, and c were the rituals you were supposed to perform on the x day of y month z number of times in order to keep him content, it would be ridiculously difficult for an outsider to convince him otherwise after he grew up. Even more so, if they were told (from their childhood) that questioning its existence would do nothing to further their cause but rather weaken the gate-keeper`s wish to protect them any further. In the process, all doubts would be sealed, any questions asked when the house security is breached would be answered by `we probably didn`t have enough faith or didn`t perform the rituals right` and any doubts would be repelled by other members in the house, not to say that the doubter wouldn`t ever gain the strength to voice those doubts in fear of the other house-members in the first place. In doing so, you would have a whole generation of people who`d very sincerely believe in the gate-keeper and a whole new mini-religion would start.``

egalitarian #128,

First.of.all.STOP.watching.soaps.

Secondly, What.Solitude.has.expressed.in.his.interacts.is.hatred...THAT.is.what.I.have.a.problem.with...Atheism/freethinking.is.just.a.farce.to.cover.his.hatred.I.know.many.atheists/agnostics.who.respect.what.others.believe.in...they.discuss.respectfully.they.speak.respectfully.

I.really.don`t.understand.why.people.have.to.make.religion.into.a.monster....If.used.correctly.it.can.be.quite.helpful.to.some...Everything.is.in.our.hands...If.religion.doesn`t.help.you.DROP.it.

But.don`t.insult.others.because.of.it.

Someone.who.prays.five.times.a.day.is.in.no.way.less.intelligent.or.less.worldly.than.a.person.who.doesn`t.

Why.do.I.have.to.spell.this.out.even.isn`t.this.common.sense?

sadna #122:

You are exactly right. I am always morose before I dive into the pile of work before me every evening. So you can tell what I was upto when I wrote that message.

The trend toward democratization on one hand and the spread of information technologies on the other allow us greater hope than ever before. I would caution, however, that both these developments can be used to spread ignorance and prejudice as effectively as they can used to spread knowledge and tolerance.

Still, your point is well-taken. We should grasp the new, unprecedented opportunities we have to do something good and constructive.

Regards,

Prem

Umairr,

Thank you for your kind words ; believe me, the feeling is mutual.

I personally feel that Chowk has definitely broadened my mind towards Pakistanis. Eventhough I have met many Pakistanis in the US, I`ve never had such frank, open discussions with any of them. In my personal experience Indians & Pakistanis, when they meet on social occassions, dont go to such depths of their feelings & views as on an anonymous forum like Chowk. There is always a risk of such discussions going out of hand, & ruin the evening, not to mention, become very impolite to the host & hostess.

Both countries have their idiots, but its heartening to find out that there are many more sensible ones on either side too.Even though there are a few core issues we may never agree upon, you have the same hopes & dreams for your motherland, as we have of ours. This may sound very naieve on my part, but you folks are definitely not the ogres I thought you were. In my retrospective self analysis, it pains me to realise that thats how narrow minded I was. The credit goes to Chowk.

I am eternally greatful to Chowk for its motto ``all are welcome to read write & think``. When we talk to each other, at least the sensible ones are able to empathise with each other`s views. That is the only way people of India & Pakistan can hope to be good neighbors & respect each other`s identity.

Thats why it pains me when people like ylh & cheryam leave. From the looks of it, it seems cheryam is hesitating; I hope she stays.

Also to ylh (if you ever read this tribute)--``if it wasnt for you, especially, I would`nt have fully understood & appreciated the wisdom & greatness of Jinnah``.

Peace!

Egalitarian-Brahman:#128

Well! no wonder you have an oxymoronic moniker.Was it Freudian slip,or this was also because you firmly believe that you are thoroughly in control of yourself(not a weakling`like the little girl)?

The story about the little girl and her love for her missing(dead) dog is heart renting.Remember,she is not crying for the Santa Claus or the Tooth-fairy.She is crying for a dog that once was there for real.

It is the Psycho. & the poor mother who need help.

Maulana Roomi tells us that the flute is still crying for the reed.The desire for humans to be one with the ONE and this hope & the joy of this pursuit is the only reason for us as individuals & the humanity as a collective to go on.You may or may no realise it but you too are moving along in this direction,perhaps by a different route and MAYBE in a late model vehicle,but in the same direction for sure.

Those who are not bothered never visit such labrynthine alleyways.

``Tumm bhee shaamil ho iss amnboh kee tanhaee mein``

Ever since when there was a physical assault on that symbol of romance,the moon,do you think people have stopped falling in love.The anguished cry emanating from the lips of Faiz:

``Ubb aur kissi farada kay liyay,kyoon fikr-e dil-o janaan keejay.

kiss khaab kay jhootay afsoon sey taskeenay dil-e nadaan keejay``.

from``Two voices``--after the first landing on moon.

tr.(for some):``Now,why should one give even a thought to a better tomorrow and how should one comfort this naive & foolish heart,without the tinsels & ``comfort-blankets`` of this shattered dream.``

(Due apologies.... Some license has been taken here to suit the moment)

Doctors(perhaps psychologists too) are known to prescribe placebos.If you give a water-injection to druggies they feel relaxed.Cancer patients have returned hale & hearty after given the classic `death-sentence` by the doctors.They did beat cancer,they did not beat death....at least they did not live under a pall of fear and they accomplished far more in their lives during this period than before.

Humans have tried throughout history to lay a claim to be know-alls & all-powerful.This they have done sometimes by outright adoption of the title of diety,sometimes by being the sorcerers,sometimes by Dr.Frankensteins,and in our day & age by the sceintists.

This zeal to try to reduce every binomial & boolean,and exponential to a simple,linear, digital & alphabetical is the greatest curse upon us today.A lot of people think they know the entire theory of relativity by just parroting e=mc2...and theological matters,they think,is just halva(or piece of cake).Only if they could realise!

``Khizaan tamaam hui,kiss hisaab mein likheyay

bahaar gul mein jo pohnchay hain shakh-e gul ko guzund``

FAIZ

``Fall-season,now that it is over but then how do we account for the torment to the flower-stems which they suffered during the days of plenty (spring time)``

just lamenting the price of `progress` man has to pay today.

__________________________________________________

Sometimes I think that in strictly ``scientific`` parlance some people who believe in the supermacy of MATTER are the material part of the atom and others are the space between these things(if they are such & I may be allowed to call thus).This symbiotic relationship,perhaps,is a must and it is frivolous & futile to argue so vehemently so as to deny the existense of each other.

A whole profession,magic,thrives upon the betrayals of one the most relied & trusted faculties,eyesight.

Marshall Mclluhan,in my opinion the greatest ORIGINAL thinker of the 20th century,could be a great help to many on chowk.

Bismillah Ar-rehmaan al-Raheem

All praise is for The Sustainer of the universe,

The Kind & The Benefactor,

The Lord of the day of judgement,

To Thee we turn for prayer & worship

and to from Thee alone we ask for help

Please keep us on the right path,

Not the one taken by the transgressors.

(for some):first opening surah of Al-Quran al-Hakeem

__________________________________________________WASSALAAM

Dear Egalitarian Brahmin,

Let the Phoenix give you his own example:

I have 8 fishes and every 3-4 weeks, their fishing tank gets dirty. To them, their fish tank is their earth, their world. Every 4 weeks, judgement day arrives, (tank is dirty) and the angel of death arrives (my small green fishing net) and carries them through space and time (my corridor which comes between my bathroom and the fish tank). There I put them inside the large white bathing tub where there is nothing but pure white (Alemay Bala- Alemay Sijeen, the places where souls are held prior to judgement day). Mean while, I clean the fishing tank, add my medicine and add new decoration pieces. Then the green angel comes back again, takes these `souls` through space and time and puts them back into this nice and shiny place (the cleaned up tank-or heaven).

Now the fishes don`t understand that this creature just cleaned up their home and that was it but they will come up with this explanation because there intellect only allows them to understand something along those lines. (they are one smart bunch of goldfishes).

The moral of the story. I and we don`t understand everything but we recognise our shortcomings and have enough humility to accept the barriers of our own intellect. And maybe, this heaven and hell and Allah or God (whatever you may call him- there is only one of Him) is out of our comprehension but He exists. Period.

Take care and there`s more to follow.

Omar Phoenix.

Reply #: 195

binifer

Haha now thats what i call the height of femininity!

Reply #: 189

AAmir

Chootay bhai,Bhaijaan,aap kis duniya mai rehtay hain.Kia larkian ungraceful,careless,awkward,gawky, etc nahi ho sakteen???aik tau in gender biases say mai tang aa gai hoon :P .. kia ap larkon nay ``Klutz`` ko copyright keeya hua hai??? patent laga hua hai kia? ab larkian aisay names use bhi nahi kar sakteen.are you one of those ppl who believe that pink is for gurls and blue is for guys?..how boring.

Reply #: 186

tahmed321

Yes i do know that``The concept of an ``islamic republic`` is a patently unIslamic piece of nonsense that is propogated by those who hope to gain a position of power in Pakistan through devious means.`` and i agree with u whole-heartedly.I have never really accepted this ``rubbish`` as u call it.. because i do know how much islamic our govt is and our state is!Still it is called an islamic republic which means it can certainly not be called a secular state.

Reply #: 185

tahmed321

Hehe i couldnt agree with u more.

Ummair #120 This military government can either go down in history as (a) having set the foundations for a stable, democratic and progressive society in Pakistan, or (b) being just another one of the failed would-be life-time rules of Pakistan. It can still go either way. To take path (a), the government should seek to establish a SYSTEM of checks and balances based on universally accepted principles and the rule of law. To take path (b), the government can try to set up checks and balances based on PERSONALITIES. If indeed the government is thinking along the lines you discuss (i.e. personalities), then I think it is looking at path (b) which will lead us nowhere.

Umairr (Continuation of my previous post): I should add that by starting from local government elections, the military government is in fact taking a step in the direction of path (a) - it is best to build things from the ground up. Here is one possible way the military government can go up path (a) and into history as having made Pakistan the most progressive part of South Asia:

Step 2: Address some fundamental issues -moratorium on Kashmir in favor of all efforts at poverty alleviation; eliminate role of federal bureaucracy in service delivery functions, and cut bureacracy to one-tenth it`s size; reduce layers of government to two layers (national, to ensure compliance of local governments with universal principles of freedom and tolerance, and local); defined process for military to step in (basically, only in case someone like Nawaz Sharif has done away with checks and balances in the Constitution); and so forth.

Step 3: Declare willingness to cut conventional forces to one-fifth, with nuclear option serving to deter thoughts of aggression from people like Advani in India.

Step 4: Form interim civilian government, have national elections, and step back to barracks.

Re: PM #47

Just came back from visiting family over Thanksgiving, hence my delay in replying. I would beg to differ. I agree that there is a BIG difference between Christendom and Christianity but it still remains that turn-the-other-cheek Christianity was the ostensible justification for all of the ruthless persecutions of Christendom. So how does one justify the Catholic belief (or has it been finally changed?) that newborn babes who died before being baptised were doomed to suffer in purgatory for all of eternity?

Wait a minute, you will argue, that is just Roman Catholicism. Desptite their deluded beliefs, Catholicism does not equal Christianity. OK. How about this. If you look at the Old Testament, it is full of hellfire and brimstone. A stern and vengeful God orders the slaying of thousands who displease him. Pagans are gleefully slaughtered and dispossessed of all their worldly goods and their women are raped and their children enslaved.

But wait! You will cry, ``Thats the Old Testament! Real Christianity is the New Testament!`` Nope. Christianity also accepts the Old Testament and even in the New, the Book of Revelations has some particularly juicy bits about death and destruction of all those who are not true believers. There is also the passage about separating the goats from the sheep, and its no fun being a sheep.

So I would argue that a literal interpretation of the Bible, Old and New Testament, gives a fairly unsavory picture of Christianity. It is only when a literal interpretation of religion is abandoned that the Judeo-Christian religions are no longer thought/social control devices.

In general, I would agree with Solitude in so far as a literal interpretation of Islam (no matter whose literal interpretation of Islam it is) should be fought tooth and nail by all who believe in democracy, human rights, gender equality and the fact that we are in the 20th century and not the 7th, CE.

What I find most objectionable about public Islam is the action of people who want to force their belief systems down my throat. I don`t care if you want to pray five times a day and have your sleep ruined. I personally think you are an idiot but then I think that the people who phone the Psychic Friends are idiots also, as are the ones who pray to Jesus to tell them the winning lottery numbers or to help them make the right business decisions. I certainly don`t want to get rid of them. If stupidity makes them happy, so be it.

Up to this point, your lifestyle really does not impact me. However, when you tell me to also pray five times a day and not have my bottle of beer, or that I can`t sit on the beach enjoying the sunset with my girlfriend, or go dancing with her, that makes it my business. When you want to kill Ahmedis who want to ``pray`` in a mosques, or kill Christians who allegedly burned a copy of the Koran, I think the world would be better off without you. So I certainly think that the world would be better off if we treated Islam the same way we treat Astrology--a harmless enough superstition--but when we elevate Islam (or Christianity or Judaism) to the level of the supreme word of God that must be obeyed, or else, then we have some real problems on our hands.

Regards.

Umair #126

The same criteria should be applied when dealing with situations which resemble.

As me you are deep for the rights for Kashmiris for self determination. I agree.

But when it comes to people of Pakistan to choose their own destiny, one form of which is election, you seem to imply a top down approach.

re. scout #128,

``What.Solitude.has.expressed.in.his.interacts.is.hatred...THAT.is.what.I.have.a.problem.with...Atheism/freethinking.is.just.a.farce.to.cover.his.hatred.I.know.many.atheists/agnostics.who.respect.what.others.believe.in...they.discuss.respectfully.they.speak.respectfully.``

First, I don`t think Solitude has ever explicitly expressed hatred for anybody. To the contrary, he has time and again pointed out that it is the `system` that he hates, for what it (presumably) does to people in the way of propagating intolerance and violence. I think it a littel presumptuous on your part to presume that ``atheism/freethinking is jsut a farce``. Maybe it`s even presumptuous to presume him an atheist. The man certainly believes in a purpose (``higher`` or whatever!) to life, has a vision, and is passionate about, and committed to his beliefs (--NONE OF THEM HAND-ME-DOWNS, I SHOULD EMPHASIZE)

As for the ``many atheists/agnostics who respect what others believe`` blah blah blah.... that is so much of late-twentieth century western politically correct posturing-- a gross misunderstanding of the liberal democratic principle of respecting the RIGHT of others to believe what they may. This is a world away from respecting the BELIEFS of others, something I hear many of the interactors on this site rather foolishly propound. (And I think is where a certain Farangi_Kush fails (rather conveniently, for a person of his intellect) to see a distinction).

Indeed, there is nothing wrong with the spirit of jihad (the fight for what one belives to be Right). And is this not exactly what Solitude exhibits? Or does the fact that the spirit in this case militates against something YOU hold dear (as opposed to what the Kafirs hold dear) diminish its value.

As I see it, Solitude`s staunch oppostion to Islam is based on his theory that its beliefs promote undesirable actions and attitudes. So why would he want to RESPET those beliefs?

If you disagree with Solitude`s thesis, either provide a counter-thesis, or leave him alone altogether. Branding him `confused`, `hate-filled`, etc. as some have-- and as he may well be, for all we know!-- detracts from the many cogent arguments he puts forward. Such accusations, IMO, betray a discomfort at the recognition of (some) truth in what he says. Moreover, they are only easy to make when numbers are overwhelmingly on your side.

You continue: ``I.really.don`t.understand.why.people.have.to.make.religion.into.a.monster...If.used.correctly.it.can.be.quite.helpful.to.some...Everything.is.in.our.hands...If.religion.doesn`t.help.you.DROP.it.

But.don`t.insult.others.because.of.it.``

Now this is the sort of sorry aplogetics I often hear from religionists trying to don the garb of philosophical liberalism. First, going strictly by the dictates of the religion, ``everything is [NOT] in our hands``, and the advice to ``drop it`` if it ain`t working for `you` (no universailty of principle here!) is another hopless attempt at wedding archaic religiosity with liberal democratic prinicples. (And before anyone starts to quote the `there is no compulsion in religion`, be warned, Solitude will remind you of the scripturally-sanctioned penalty for `kufr`.) So, no, my dear scout, the option to just `drop it` isn`t as available as you make it sound-- and you don`t have to be psych graduate to know that either.

Second, a lot rides on the `If used correctly` clause. Perhaps one day, someone will provide the guidelines for the `correct usage` of (a) religion and caution for signs of `incorrect use`. We can then proceed to the issue (central, I believe to Solitudes mind) as to whether, given what we know of the world and human nature, more people would choose (automatically) the `correct usage` or the `incorrect` one. Maybe we`ll even flip through the pages of history for indications on how the ball has rolled thus far.

In an earlier post, I argued against Solitude`s contention that religion, or Islam in this case, can ONLY have bad results. That is because I felt that to be an unsupportable statement. However, I think that the failure by most interactors to even recognize - let alone address - his main thesis (that Religion does more harm than good) speaks of some fear. Fear that under all the extreme posturings he takes, there lies a germ of truth.

``Someone.who.prays.five.times.a.day.is.in.no.way.less.intelligent.or.less.worldly.than.a.person.who.doesn`t.``

Who suggested he/she is? Now this is really defensive/apologetic. Where`d / *IT/ * come from anyways??

regards,

PM

egalitarian_brahmin #128

``If all children in the world were taught with amazing sincerity and convinction by their parents that there existed an invisible door-keeper outside every house and it guarded the individuals inside, and a, b, and c were the rituals you were supposed to perform on the x day of y month z number of times in order to keep him content, it would be ridiculously difficult for an outsider to convince him otherwise after he grew up. ``

Are you trying to put McDonalds, Disney, Hollywood and GMC as well as Ford Motors out of business? Forget about the fashion and advertising industry. The free world depends on modern `myths` as much as the Old World depended on ancient `myths`. One is definately an unabashed `moneymaker`.

Ultimately any religion(including rationalizations stemming from `capitalism` or `communism`) makes sense only if `uplifts` or raises its practitioner`s existence to a level HE considers higher than in its absence. Whether throughly-thought over and thousands of years old or just a hundred years old doesnot makes much difference. Its the `extra` and unwelcome trappings like say discontent and rapacious materialism (where the `religion` of free market is concerned) or burdensome outdated tradition (where more traditional religions are concerned) that merit the real attention of thinkers or you may just end up replacing one `flawed` system with another.

Sadhana

PM #144

Thanks for writing this response. You have polished Solitude’s somewhat raw arguments into a well-defined theory. For a meaningful debate, Solitude’s theory now begs an analytical approach, and substantive counter arguments from his critics. I do think that his opposition has shown less than mediocre knowledge of religion/spirituality so far.

As for the assertion that there is no “compulsion” in religion… My question is this:

Why Islam recommends death penalty for Murtids?

Murtid = Muslims who want to go out of the fold of Islam by choosing to follow another religion

Why can’t a person after joining the religion change his/her mind and leave? Isn’t this compulsion?