Headache and Heartburn

Interesting discussion..now I see a glimmer of hope that there will be internal debate among people who follow Islamic faith. However, some of the forumites have done what they do the best..launch personal attack on solitude rahter than debating whit him. Stock answer has been that he does not know what is real Islam, or he has not experienced Islam and so on. Will some body explain us what is experiencing real Islam and does real Islam accept Hinduism practised by one billion a real religion?

I know what to expect from `Real Islamists` but I would like to hear other excuses from most enlightened and well read Pakistanis..

I am waiting.

RE: Scout

Since you’d put it that way, I started thinking about sacrificing my brain cells (though there aren’t many; but probably you have already figured that out by yourself), then our good Samaritan Ustani Ji came to the rescue- Problems solved- and humanity is also saved from losing an (unappreciated) genius.

Dear Almira:

You have good writing skills. You, however, need to inform your readers why Beant Singh was more important for you than all other characters and events in the rest of the story. Please disregard my comments, if you disagree; I am not a literary person. And, I have not even read Hamid Mohsin!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

slink #93:

[...it`s just that i don`t consider the words of an obviously confused person with great seriousness and feel compelled to defend myself against them.]

--To me the only person who seems to be on the defensive is Solitude himself. Personally, I do not feel compelled to defend myself - don`t HAVE anything to defend - nor am I taking him seriously. Just killing time between chores by playing some ``mind`` games with this guy. (It can get quite interesting actually if the other person has a highly confused disposition.) And maybe if Solitude learns something in this process - got my fingers crossed - *shrug * good for him. :)

Do agree on another point of yours though - about how much power you give a person. Reminded me of something someone told me once when I was little. Of course, at that time it swished over my head but now as I grow older, it seems to make more and more sense.

Solitude:

Know what... you remind me of these little 2 year olds who go around giving high-fives all day long when they don`t even know what 3 and 4 is.

Some advice from an 80 year old buriya who learnt it the hard way. Might help you?

--NOTHING is more than what YOU want it to be - no idea, no person, no relationship, no object, etc, etc. Not even the idea of God. You alone have the power to control your perceptions, you alone have the power to attach importance to something, you alone have the power to decide how much something or someone means to you. No one should be able to control or manipulate this ability of yours. No one can or will be able to unless YOU let them. You alone control who/what and to what extent something or someone manipulates you. If you feel you do not have this power, then obviously you do not have complete control over your faculties. Learn to get over this vulnerability first - get a grip - and THEN decide which issues you should attach importance to and how much bearing those issues should have in/on your life. Always keep in mind how costly (in every aspect) some issues might prove to be. Otherwise Regret sets in. Terrifying isn`t it? Be careful when deciding.

Now, ask yourself - is attacking other people`s religious beliefs worth the effort, the cost? Why? This brings me to another age-old piece of advice from the old lady..... (oh yes, she`s for real :))

--The ``world`` WILL NOT change for you - you`ll have to change YOUR perception of it. You can be idealistic about it, adopt a romantic vision, a more realistic view, you can choose to be a pessimist, an optimist, be rational about it, whatever - you choose how you want to perceive it. The ``world`` will always be different to different people. It`s pointless and unfair to expect others to follow your line of vision. Apply this to beliefs now. You`re more than welcome to hold on to what you do or do not believe in - give others the same freedom. SHARE your ideas and let others decide for themselves whether or not they want to agree with you - don`t PUSH them down the throats of others. You`re more than welcome to disagree with what I believe in, but don`t think I`m WRONG about my beliefs. There is no wrong or right answer. Hell, it`s about common courtesy, basic manners (where were you in elementary school?!) - learn to respect other people`s ideas and beliefs. I never attacked you on your beliefs - in fact I even said it was somewhat nice to see a person dreaming of a Utopia - I attacked you on the condescending manner with which you attacked the beliefs of others.

Urstruly:

Damn! If I`d known you were willing to sacrifice yourself, I wouldn`t have answered scout`s question!

scout: messed up big time huh? will we ever get another chance to rid humanity of this guy? another chance to do something for the good of others? sigh.....

Solitude beta,

hata saavan ki ghata light bujha aur chup chaap sojaa...

I think you are already convinced that Hitler has used Christianity to justify his own perversions, but you don`t want to accept it,

thats precisely what Quran calls hippocrisy!

(would have made a difference if you had actually read the Quran).

Similar to Hitler there were/are few muslim kings and leaders, who used Islam to jusify their crimes and perversions and wholesale abuse of power, albeit to a far less consequence than Hitler. Being strong and powerful themselves, Islam or no Islam, these crooks would anyway do what they wanted.

Anyways, if you don`t like Islam, no one is forcing you to be a muslim. There is no compulsion in religion...

``There is no compulsion in religion;

truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.``

--Quran(2:256)

In one breath you say you hate Islam in the same breath you say you are a muslim. How? A muslim is one who believes in Islam. If you don`t believe, why do you call yourself a muslim then,

thats precisely what Quran calls hippocrisy!

Regards,

khan

PS: Hitler misrepresented the actions of Jesus (pbuh) when he quotes that Jesus (pbuh) threw the jews out of the temple. Jesus (pbuh) threw all the jews out of the temple because it was a saturday and jews were supposed to observe `Sabbath`, (abstention from worldly affairs, no work, no bussiness, orthodox jews observe this todate, and they don`t even use telephone or microphone on saturdays), but instead there were jews in the temple who were doing money-exchange transactions, selling fish, selling vegetables, selling cattle, and so he threw them all out along with their wares. What he was doing was a reform of the society, he was reminding jews their promise to their God, and to observe sabbath, he wanted them to observe their religious duty. And he didn`t throw them out because he had fascist tendencies like Hitler or a perversion to hate and kill jews like Hitler had. As a matter-of-factly Jesus (pbuh) did not kill a single jew nor did he order his disciples to kill the jews, unlike Hitler.

Lastly, Jesus (pbuh) was a jew himself. Ask any learned christian and he will vouch for every single word I said. I hope now its clear how people use religion to justify their own whims and fancies. The more illeterate the people the more they will be exploited by their leaders. The more ignorant the people are about their own religion, the more they will fall into the traps of such traitors.

In response to slink`s post in #93:

I understand your point now...(well said)!

Thanks,

-digit.

Lubna #97,

``According to Islamic belief, Munkar and Nakeer are the names of the two angels who question a person about his/her faith when he/she

dies. I suppose the first exam after ``death`` huh?``

An exam after death? WHoaaa! That`s all I need.

Lubna, in exams say chutkaara kab milay ga?

By the way, is it possible to name your kids Munkar and Nakeer? Two lille angels questioning u every day.

yme #95:

Ha ha, Buddha was known to be an agnostic, and one can be an atheist or an agnostic (or a polytheist or a monotheist) and still be a Hindu! Wonder where that puts Hinduism and Buddhism per this foundation?!

Keep writing, it doesnt take much to shock people and for name-calling to be the only means of disagreement. And the more rational ones seem to have lines demarcated for someone else`s clarity of thought.

Ciao!

yme:#95

After going through your(or the cut & paste authors`)long-winded harangue,I urge you to revisit & read again what you posted.

It is YOU who said sumun,bukmun....etc etc,in your entire post(not just in the last line)to the believers.The Quran addresses the muslims only(the beievers only) whereas you are trying to convert believers to non-belief.Your cut & paste looks good only on its` own page.A simple reference could have earned you a some respect.

The phalanx of `prophets` you paraded around are not even `mentioned-toos` in the annals of religious history.

Non-believers have been around for milleniums & they have never made any `progress`.Their lack of having any followers is also NOT a sign of their being `quality` material.

``In my country when you run as fast as we are running,you eventually reach somewhere``----Alice.

& the Red Queen replies:

``In THIS country you have to run THIS fast to stay where you are``

Alice in wonderland.

There always IS a `price` for thinking.There is NO free-thinking.(This was an impromptu `Free` thought and I know it is worth nothing)

Happy heading no-where!

``Dehr juuz jalva-e yukthaee-ay mashooque naheen

Hum kahan hothey agar husn naa hotha khudbeenn``

__________________________________________________

WASSALAAM

solitude isn`t the most polite of interactors but the mass denial he has elicited in the form of self-righteous responses is simply breath-taking.

Unless you at least recognize the existence of a problem, how can you ever hope to make even a bit of a progress in solving it?

But then, may be there is no progress. May be, we still are where we were a thousand or two thousand years ago.

Peace be upon us all.

An attempt to shift the debate away from, ``Solitude,`` and onto something else which also has nothing much to do with this article :)

I don`t think much of Shaheen Sehbai, but he has given an interesting description of the current political leadership of Pakistan. One of these guys will become the next Prime Minister of Pakistan (with Musharraf as the President and/or COAS, heading the NSC, which would have the authority to fire the Prime Minister), in my opinion.

``All the king`s men

By Shaheen Sehbai

GENERAL Pervez Musharraf and his loyal colleagues, apparently trying hard to find a political solution to their essentially military problem of governing the country, would be increasingly wondering about the quality and breed of the supporters and collaborators coming forward to give them a helping hand.

Obviously what they did get so far did not provide even half the confidence needed to make the generals feel at home with a quasi-democratic set-up and what lies in store in the shape of the new break-away `like-minded` faction of PML-N, the overambitious Jamaat-i-Islami or even the untried and untested Tehreek-i-Insaaf offer nothing exciting either.

A cursory look at the possible ``Junejos`` of the present regime would make any heart sink in disbelief. The list of the Muslim Leaguers, of all hue and shades, does not include any name which could generate inspiration and hope. Outsiders like the religious zealot Qazi Hussain Ahmed or cricketer Imran Khan are so far away from the mainstream they could not forge any kind of a workable political consensus.

The brief resumes of some of the candidates, enlisted in the army`s Who`s Who, aspiring to become the leader of Musharraf`s `B` team would look something like this:

- Mian Mohammed Azhar: A product of the Sharif family, loyal and respectful until misled by others. Never shown any qualities of popular leadership. Always tended to compromise after initially objecting to `diktat` of the Sharifs. Created some small tea-cup storms in Lahore with his rebellious ways but never could cash any of the anti-Nawaz public feelings for his own or his group`s advantage. Tarnished his sober image by joining and raising hands with those who forcibly occupied the PML secretariat. Never a serious contender for any leadership role, except in a controlled environment

- Ejazul Haq: A petty banker and apolitical son of a military dictator who turned every stone to prolong his rule at the cost of demolishing all national institutions, parliament, judiciary and the executive. Inherited millions and millions of dollars left over by his crusading father who milked the Americans and the West to the last Afghan against the Soviet Union. Was pushed and promoted by agencies and Hameed Guls of yesteryear to join politics and support another of their creation, Nawaz Sharif. Has never been asked a single question about the immense wealth that he throws around in politicking. Always defends the interests of the khakis, no matter who his political boss, elected or nominated,is.

- Humayun Akhtar Khan: The handsome scion of the late general who handled most of the billions invested by the West in the Afghan war. Got the popular nick name Humayun `dollar` Khan. Once claimed before a journalist (that`s me) that Ejazul Haq`s $250 million were peanuts compared to what he owned. Won elections riding the Nawaz Sharif`s bandwagon, spending millions of dollars that drained every hard-earned rupee out of the then poor Aitzaz Ahsan. Never been able to explain his millions and never been touched by any government to account for his riches. The owner of Pepsi Cola franchise which works well to provide cover for his financial inheritance. Always quick to dump his political boss for a new and promising one.

- Choudhry Shujaat Hussain: The head of the Gujrat clan who was never trusted by his political boss and never allowed to get control of Punjab, mainly because of his unfulfilled ambition to overthrow the Sharif family, if and when he got the chance. Never brought under any accountability net, despite numerous charges and the colossal cooperatives scam. Always excels in No 2 position but needs tight control at the top. A generous host for obliging journalists and politicians but never considered `prime ministerial` material by any of his colleagues, old or current. Has the tendency to quickly realize his mistakes, apologize without thinking twice, if politically expedient.

- Syed Fakhr Imam: The most decent politician of the lot with some signs of moral and political courage displayed in previous resignations from elected positions. Has to play second fiddle to overambitious wife because he is polite and not-so self-seeking and because his wife is overly dominating. Has one big religious baggage which counts him out of the race -- he is from Fiqah Jafferia. An excellent asset for any leader but could not distance himself from his wife`s political and social ambitions.

- Syeda Abida Hussain: A clean politician with a lot of guts and courage. Has a strong constituency but also has stronger political and religious enemies in Jhang who have dragged her and hubby Fakhr from attaining national political goals. Accepted, and controversially ran, ambassadorship to Washington and may settle for another stint as well, if nothing else comes her way. Unable to lead a mass movement like Benazir, whom she hates and would never want anyone to compare her to. Ambitions to stardom and greatness repel political heavyweights from joining her sincerely.

Mian Khurshid Kasoori: Clean son of a cleaner heavyweight father. Has the tendency to flip-flap and change boats in midstream. Never seriously tested in any leadership executive position and unable to create an aura of a serious contender to power, through the front or the back door. May need strong crutches to keep him stable if a top position accidentally comes his way. Could also go back to the Sharif family if no one else promises anything lucrative.

- Ilahi Bux Soomro: A political fox who got much of his training massaging the feet of dubious politicians like late chief minister Jam Sadiq Ali (the writer has been eyewitness to many such episodes). Was in the running with Mohammed Khan Junejo for prime ministership offered by Gen Zia ul Haq in 1985 but lost out. A politically unreliable friend but harmless foe yet could prove to be a useful tool in the hands of manipulators. Professes to be a democrat but hardly acts like one when the crunch comes. Ditched both the PML groups in their recent fight probably hoping in vain that by remaining neutral he would emerge taller than either of the two. Ultimately ended up neither here nor there.

- Hamid Nasir Chatta: Could have been a serious candidate if he had maintained the image and perception of a serious politician. Was boyish in demeanour and used to play with sophisticated electronic toys when he was a minister in Benazir`s cabinet. Politically very sound and credited by every serious analyst in the media as the author and guarantor of the press freedoms allowed during Junejo`s three-year stint and continuing till today. A lot of image building may be needed to make him look like prime ministerial material. Clean financially but some small side-scandals could hound him if ever he was seriously in the running for a top position.

- Imran Khan: A no-nonsense Khan who has often publicly stated that a tough danda was needed for Pakistan to be put back on the right course. Lacks political insight but invites and gets sound advice though once he gets into a position, if ever, it is unlikely he would heed any advice. Joined another loser Ajmal Khattak to make a funny cocktail of old and new, intellectual and playboy, Punjabi and Pathan, political and apolitical. Could be a good choice for a tough army-led regime, handing out the stick to all and sundry. Where will the carrots go is not yet clear.

- Qazi Hussain Ahmed: What he says could not actually be what he does. He is trying to give prime ministerial looks and is already scheduling his events as if he was rehearsing for the real thing. A disaster in the making if he ever gets real power. Qazi Sahib could be a dictator, Islamic fundamentalist, democrat, liberal and conformist, all at the same time. The party under him has come a long way from a religio-social reform movement to a seeker of brute political power. Trying to project himself before the West as the acceptable face of Islamic fundamentalism who could stop the Talibanization of Pakistan. Beware of the real him under his camouflaged cloak.

Pitched against these non-starters will be the time-tested street and drawing-room fighters like Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan, Wali Khan and Asfandyar Wali Khan, Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif, Altaf Hussain, all the Bugtis, Marris, Mengals, Jatois and their tribes and clans. What chicken soup would these forces, converged on a one-point programme to restore democracy, make of the above listed aspirants is obvious.`` (DAWN, Pakistan)

My choices out of the above: 1) Imran Khan 2) Fakhr Imam. All the others are either bums, proven failiures or too corrupt.

Umair #109

I don`t expect anything else from you.

Kutte Ki Dum Sau Saal Bhi Gaar Do to Terhi Hi Nikalti Hai.

Where is the choice of people.

How long the Army will continue to elect for us.

Does the Army want the people to revolt against it.

Are nuclear bomb made for people for Pakistan.

People did not mind one Major Kaleem.

But if situation continues like this people will be dragging hundreds of Major Kaleems on street.

And after Mullahs second Tafreeh will be Army.

Farangi- Kush #107

Since you are deep down in Islamic thoughts, can you enlighten us regarding Deen-e-Islam and abuse of religion by some people and parties.

For example Ayub Khan is considered very good. And Jamat-e-Islami called Yahya Khan as Mard-e-Momin. While Wine and women and rule of elite was at its full during these regime. Do you think Islamic history and role of Ulema in supporting dictators and keeping people in check with Fatwas and fear has to do with the thinking of Islamist.

Compare it to Z.A. Bhutto (who under pressure) made Qadiani as non-Muslim in constitution, banned Liquor, horse races (which are on rise these days), Friday holiday. His only crime is that he gave voice to people in effect loosen the hold of clergy on peoples life. Do you think this is crime enough, that all Islamist consider Ayub, Zia, Yahya (and future dictators) better than elected leaders.

Prem #108
``May be, we still are where we were a thousand or two thousand years ago.``

Something HAS changed. The `democratization` of the world in the last century has meant that ideas and issues are more likely to prevail than events and personalities. Many of us have handicapped ourselves by not realising this and fighting the good fights in the wrong way.

Slink:

Thanks for reminding me of my childhood buddy, Naunehaal Magazine. It has been a while since I`ve cared to review it. I`ve always liked the Hamdard Team, Late Hakeen Mohd Saeed, in particular.[May his soul rest in peace] As far as the Gripe Water part is concerned, I cannot think of depriving you of your only `food`. Simply impossible! Please keep on enjoying your food, whereas I will continue with my fondest memories of the magazine.

Take Care,

Atta Girl Zahra,

I dont like the way S, S, and L talk behind your back. I suggest you take a sturdy stance on this. I will be right behind you.

Another buddy:)