Urstruly November 24, 2000
#91 Posted by tahmed321 on December 2, 2000 10:03:37 am
krashid #90 You continue to add to my knowledge. So Altaf Hussain started off from the Jamiat. I think we may have found the arsonists in Pakistan: it is these Jamaatis.
#90 Posted by krashid on December 2, 2000 1:35:53 am
Urstruly #
One important point which I forgot.
Altaf Hussain was himself a Jamiat worker from my area. And has learned the art of politics from Jamiat. Later he replaced all words beginning with Islam by ``Mohajir``.
One important point which I forgot.
Altaf Hussain was himself a Jamiat worker from my area. And has learned the art of politics from Jamiat. Later he replaced all words beginning with Islam by ``Mohajir``.
#89 Posted by tahmed321 on December 2, 2000 12:46:38 am
Urstruly #87 Actually I go home quite frequently (I was there last summer and am planning another visit next spring) and have been around the block a few times while growing up in Pakistan too. I have never heard the term Akhrot used to describe a Pathan, and have very rarely heard epithets like Dhagga and Tiliar used: the former only by yahoos trying to describe other yahoos, and not the entire Panjabi ethnic group as you seem to use it - and the latter only in jest and again very infrequently (bhayya is the more favored term by those few jerks who use the term to disparage UP-ites). But then, home is in the northern part of Pakistan, and you are from Karachi I think where I hardly ever go (only if unavoidably as a stopover).
Your disbelief that I have not heard the term Akhrot is quite real. This tells me something: Thus may mean that Karachiites have a special problem with ethnic chuavinism that other parts of the country have not been infected by? Before you start throwing chairs and lamps at me, could you reflect a bit on this possibility?
Your disbelief that I have not heard the term Akhrot is quite real. This tells me something: Thus may mean that Karachiites have a special problem with ethnic chuavinism that other parts of the country have not been infected by? Before you start throwing chairs and lamps at me, could you reflect a bit on this possibility?
#88 Posted by krashid on December 2, 2000 12:46:38 am
Urstruly #
On this board, we are strangers and only words and no body language or facial expression depicts our thoughts.
How we think.
If we think as Pakistani then ethnicity takes secondary importance. But with apology, I have found mostly people from Lahore and probably Pindi with ethnic thinking first and ``Barak`` of Pakistan on lips first.
I have many Punjabi friends (in fact my best friend in school for 10 years was a Punjabi) and I am aware of differences in thinking even among Punjabis.
The type I am describing is more akin to Jamat-e-Islami thinking of Mohajirs, with Islam replacing Pakistan or preceding Pakistan.
To further my point, the most ethnic paty Mohajir Qaumi Movement was basically enriched in the form of workers by Jamiat and Jamat-e-Islami. The only difference was that now Islam, and Pakistan was replaced by Mohajir. There is absolutely no difference between the two.
On this board, we are strangers and only words and no body language or facial expression depicts our thoughts.
How we think.
If we think as Pakistani then ethnicity takes secondary importance. But with apology, I have found mostly people from Lahore and probably Pindi with ethnic thinking first and ``Barak`` of Pakistan on lips first.
I have many Punjabi friends (in fact my best friend in school for 10 years was a Punjabi) and I am aware of differences in thinking even among Punjabis.
The type I am describing is more akin to Jamat-e-Islami thinking of Mohajirs, with Islam replacing Pakistan or preceding Pakistan.
To further my point, the most ethnic paty Mohajir Qaumi Movement was basically enriched in the form of workers by Jamiat and Jamat-e-Islami. The only difference was that now Islam, and Pakistan was replaced by Mohajir. There is absolutely no difference between the two.
#87 Posted by Urstruly on December 1, 2000 11:15:23 pm
Krashid #80
Dear Rashid: Please accept my apology but I could not fathom the depth of your post. The following few lines are based on my limited understanding:
I think that the racial and ethnic epithets are never desultory, they do have a background and a history attached to them. We can never succeed in preventing our children and us from using ethnic epithets until and unless we eliminate the cause of discontent first. Take for example, Ali1’s post, as he has specifically mentioned some causes of discontent. All our lectures, theses, and sermons will be hollow unless we address those issues first. There is no shortcut.
Tahmad321 # 79
I hope now you know what an Akhrot is. I think you haven’t been to home for a while, eh?
Khattur# 72
Malik Saib, I am so glad that you finally decided to join us. You know how much I value your opinion. Thank you.
Zahra #65
I think I am still in the anger phase, so UB40 ain’t gonna work. BTW, I am currently into Punk Rock; “Need somebody, someone” by KORN and “Awake” by GODSMACK may give you an idea as to what I mean.
Zehra # 64
Haa Haayay! You made me blush again with the apropos use of “f” word.
Dear Rashid: Please accept my apology but I could not fathom the depth of your post. The following few lines are based on my limited understanding:
I think that the racial and ethnic epithets are never desultory, they do have a background and a history attached to them. We can never succeed in preventing our children and us from using ethnic epithets until and unless we eliminate the cause of discontent first. Take for example, Ali1’s post, as he has specifically mentioned some causes of discontent. All our lectures, theses, and sermons will be hollow unless we address those issues first. There is no shortcut.
Tahmad321 # 79
I hope now you know what an Akhrot is. I think you haven’t been to home for a while, eh?
Khattur# 72
Malik Saib, I am so glad that you finally decided to join us. You know how much I value your opinion. Thank you.
Zahra #65
I think I am still in the anger phase, so UB40 ain’t gonna work. BTW, I am currently into Punk Rock; “Need somebody, someone” by KORN and “Awake” by GODSMACK may give you an idea as to what I mean.
Zehra # 64
Haa Haayay! You made me blush again with the apropos use of “f” word.
#86 Posted by Urstruly on December 1, 2000 10:39:16 pm
Dear Farangi_Kush #85
Shakespeare said, “We know what we are, but not what may be”.
The Ba Ba Black sheep education may teach you what you are but it cannot teach you what you can be. To be honest with you I had no idea what Shakespeare meant before I saw this part of the world. I could never understand what Iqbal meant by “Khuddi” until I saw and met people in Europe and in N. America. I was awestruck, not by their skyscrapers, robots, shuttles and bright lights but seeing the “Khuddi” the social justice and self-confidence that an average individual exhibits here. How sweet is freedom. How does it change a man-I never knew.
In my awe I tried to imitate them to be just like them but it didn’t take me long to understand that this “Khuddi” and “self-respect” is not something that can be learned by imitation, it is something that emerges from inside. It upsets me when I see my own brothers and sisters, my own flesh and blood divulge over the megaphones that how good they are imitating (aping). I wonder why the desire to “be themselves”, to be master of their own destiny doesn’t burn them inside out and outside in. As someone else said that the opposite of bravery is not cowardliness but conformity-Conformity the ``anti-Khuddi``. And that was the message of Iqbal.
Shakespeare said, “We know what we are, but not what may be”.
The Ba Ba Black sheep education may teach you what you are but it cannot teach you what you can be. To be honest with you I had no idea what Shakespeare meant before I saw this part of the world. I could never understand what Iqbal meant by “Khuddi” until I saw and met people in Europe and in N. America. I was awestruck, not by their skyscrapers, robots, shuttles and bright lights but seeing the “Khuddi” the social justice and self-confidence that an average individual exhibits here. How sweet is freedom. How does it change a man-I never knew.
In my awe I tried to imitate them to be just like them but it didn’t take me long to understand that this “Khuddi” and “self-respect” is not something that can be learned by imitation, it is something that emerges from inside. It upsets me when I see my own brothers and sisters, my own flesh and blood divulge over the megaphones that how good they are imitating (aping). I wonder why the desire to “be themselves”, to be master of their own destiny doesn’t burn them inside out and outside in. As someone else said that the opposite of bravery is not cowardliness but conformity-Conformity the ``anti-Khuddi``. And that was the message of Iqbal.
#85 Posted by farangi_kush on December 1, 2000 8:14:50 pm
Ustruly:#84
Someone in a tone of contempt said to Picasso that he can`t understand his paintings.
The master replied:I do not understand chinese language either,but over a billion souls speak it.:)
If some of the Ba Ba Blacksheep do not follow or understand Islam,then their ignorance about it reflects more on them than the great universities of Qumm & Madina(among hungreds others).
Just ask those who after obtaining their doctorates & masters from the most prestigious universities in the west have returned after spending some time at those Superior centers of learning.Such students are in thousands & if one has the love of learning(rather than feeling insecure) one can easily locate them some near them.
..................................................
This in response to your excellent comment upon the ``door of ijtehaad....`` bleatings by the jahil Ba Ba Blacksheep.
.................................................
As I have said many times:Mill,Hobbes,Hume have to be thrown out Locke stock & barrel.They are the Ghazalies of yester-years and served their masters well when they were busy raping the superior cultures & civilisations.
Bhangies are definitely not walking tall anymore!.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
Someone in a tone of contempt said to Picasso that he can`t understand his paintings.
The master replied:I do not understand chinese language either,but over a billion souls speak it.:)
If some of the Ba Ba Blacksheep do not follow or understand Islam,then their ignorance about it reflects more on them than the great universities of Qumm & Madina(among hungreds others).
Just ask those who after obtaining their doctorates & masters from the most prestigious universities in the west have returned after spending some time at those Superior centers of learning.Such students are in thousands & if one has the love of learning(rather than feeling insecure) one can easily locate them some near them.
..................................................
This in response to your excellent comment upon the ``door of ijtehaad....`` bleatings by the jahil Ba Ba Blacksheep.
.................................................
As I have said many times:Mill,Hobbes,Hume have to be thrown out Locke stock & barrel.They are the Ghazalies of yester-years and served their masters well when they were busy raping the superior cultures & civilisations.
Bhangies are definitely not walking tall anymore!.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
#84 Posted by Urstruly on December 1, 2000 11:57:03 am
Dear Samuel #78
You have described something that I can personally relate to. I used to teach Math and Physics in a private college, part time, to intermediate level students. Most of them were deeply disturbed by the events that were happening around them. Some of them had blocked themselves out from the outside world like you did. Most of them used to confide in me and bared their souls. All I could understand was a sense and feeling of complete helplessness and confusion as if there was immense burden on their conscience. I used to pretend to be strong in front of them but to be honest with you I was as week as them, inside. I am not sure that I have made peace with myself yet or not because I saw some of my students involved in an act, which was shameful for humanity. For years I tried to convince myself that I was not responsible for their actions-I wasn’t teaching them ethics or humanities but I still think that as a teacher I failed.
I thank you for sharing you painful memories with us. Please don’t hold it inside of you- talk to someone it does help.
You have described something that I can personally relate to. I used to teach Math and Physics in a private college, part time, to intermediate level students. Most of them were deeply disturbed by the events that were happening around them. Some of them had blocked themselves out from the outside world like you did. Most of them used to confide in me and bared their souls. All I could understand was a sense and feeling of complete helplessness and confusion as if there was immense burden on their conscience. I used to pretend to be strong in front of them but to be honest with you I was as week as them, inside. I am not sure that I have made peace with myself yet or not because I saw some of my students involved in an act, which was shameful for humanity. For years I tried to convince myself that I was not responsible for their actions-I wasn’t teaching them ethics or humanities but I still think that as a teacher I failed.
I thank you for sharing you painful memories with us. Please don’t hold it inside of you- talk to someone it does help.
#83 Posted by tahmed321 on December 1, 2000 11:47:09 am
krashid #40 I was there once when BB (in exile) sang this tune that you mention: ``If a Punjabi Primeminister is sacked he is restored, but if a Sindhi primeminister is sacked she is not.``
In response, she was roundly scolded by a young college student who said people from all parts of Pakistan, not just Sindh, had looked towards her as a woman who had the privilege of the finest education, gave her two chances to be PM, and in return she let her rogue husband try to make a Jagir out of the country and turned her visits to the West into shopping sprees. And (the young chap continued) she is now trying to come back to power by creating differences between people in Pakistan. She sat there with a cute smile on her face and had no answer. But I guess that does not stop BB from continuing to sing this nasty, self-serving tune (with her talented cousin chiming in at times).
In response, she was roundly scolded by a young college student who said people from all parts of Pakistan, not just Sindh, had looked towards her as a woman who had the privilege of the finest education, gave her two chances to be PM, and in return she let her rogue husband try to make a Jagir out of the country and turned her visits to the West into shopping sprees. And (the young chap continued) she is now trying to come back to power by creating differences between people in Pakistan. She sat there with a cute smile on her face and had no answer. But I guess that does not stop BB from continuing to sing this nasty, self-serving tune (with her talented cousin chiming in at times).
#82 Posted by farangi_kush on December 1, 2000 11:47:09 am
khattur:#72
Your post is hilarious.Please keep it up.
I especially savoured the Zan marrying Zar(dari) bit and the Zahida Hinna & Joan Aelia bit.
Please write some more.Such rooted-in-the soil kind of writings(Yours & Urstrulys kind) are desperately needed in the english language.
Some respite from those who go on a binge to create instant-``literature``,still basking(tanning?) in their ``Oh``-levels.
__________________________________________________WASSALAAM
Your post is hilarious.Please keep it up.
I especially savoured the Zan marrying Zar(dari) bit and the Zahida Hinna & Joan Aelia bit.
Please write some more.Such rooted-in-the soil kind of writings(Yours & Urstrulys kind) are desperately needed in the english language.
Some respite from those who go on a binge to create instant-``literature``,still basking(tanning?) in their ``Oh``-levels.
__________________________________________________WASSALAAM
#81 Posted by farangi_kush on December 1, 2000 2:46:17 am
urstruly:#75 & tahmed:#79
AAP kee khidmat mein::)
``Humm tho samjhay thay kay Aijaz bee surkha hoga
Haif sudd haif voh kumbukht bhee tiliar niklaa``
Don`t know who said it.
Surkha: a pet red bird.also,a commie(Red)
Tiliar: the partridge.also,a mohajir
Written for Aijaz Hussain Batalvi.well known lawyer(Prosecutor in ZAB case) & urdu writer.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
AAP kee khidmat mein::)
``Humm tho samjhay thay kay Aijaz bee surkha hoga
Haif sudd haif voh kumbukht bhee tiliar niklaa``
Don`t know who said it.
Surkha: a pet red bird.also,a commie(Red)
Tiliar: the partridge.also,a mohajir
Written for Aijaz Hussain Batalvi.well known lawyer(Prosecutor in ZAB case) & urdu writer.
__________________________________________________
wassalaam.
#80 Posted by krashid on December 1, 2000 2:46:17 am
Urstruly #74
You have asked what could you (meaning people like you) could have done differently.
The only answer is think in terms of people rather than ethnicity (most of time ethnic question in bad slur is brought out by you like Taler (Mohajir) Dhagga (Punjabi) and Akhrot (Pathan). Stop thinking in terms of Punjab if you want to talk Pakistan. In Pakistan every individual, if Pakistani has same rights and responsibility. If a Sindhi is being killed means a Pakistani is being killed whether he is Punjabi or not. If a Mohajir is being killed a Pakistani is being killed. And life of a Sindhi and Mohajir should be as sacred as a Punjabi.
You will know the criteria of dethroning a person. IF a bullet is fired in Sindh interior nothing happens. If a bullet is fired in Karachi, people become happy. But if a bullet is fired in Lahore that Government is gone.
Or as put by Benazir ``If a Punjabi Primeminister is sacked he is restored, but if a Sindhi primeminister is sacked she is not.
Once you stop using the words you use so often. Inshallah you will become a better Muslim and better human.
You have asked what could you (meaning people like you) could have done differently.
The only answer is think in terms of people rather than ethnicity (most of time ethnic question in bad slur is brought out by you like Taler (Mohajir) Dhagga (Punjabi) and Akhrot (Pathan). Stop thinking in terms of Punjab if you want to talk Pakistan. In Pakistan every individual, if Pakistani has same rights and responsibility. If a Sindhi is being killed means a Pakistani is being killed whether he is Punjabi or not. If a Mohajir is being killed a Pakistani is being killed. And life of a Sindhi and Mohajir should be as sacred as a Punjabi.
You will know the criteria of dethroning a person. IF a bullet is fired in Sindh interior nothing happens. If a bullet is fired in Karachi, people become happy. But if a bullet is fired in Lahore that Government is gone.
Or as put by Benazir ``If a Punjabi Primeminister is sacked he is restored, but if a Sindhi primeminister is sacked she is not.
Once you stop using the words you use so often. Inshallah you will become a better Muslim and better human.
#79 Posted by tahmed321 on November 30, 2000 6:59:15 pm
Urstruly you write ``“Tiliar”, “Dhaga” and “Akhrot````
The first two I understand (Karachi-lingo for UPite and Villager). Who on earth is an Akhrot?
The first two I understand (Karachi-lingo for UPite and Villager). Who on earth is an Akhrot?
#78 Posted by tahmed321 on November 30, 2000 6:59:15 pm
ahmedb #72 you write ``the proportion of our budget spent on our so-called defense has imposed a lot of opportunity costs for human development in Pakistan. ``
Well said. Now, if we received a penny for every time this thought has been expressed on chowk, we would have had so much human development that by now every Paki would be cruising around in a BMW sports convertible. The Nobel Prize Committe would have moved it`s HQ to Faisalabad in order to make it easy for our boys and gals to swing by to pick up their prizes. Our mullahs would have so much halvah that they would turn into big balls and roll all over South Asia. And PIA would rule the skies, having bought out all other airlines.
Sorry, just got carried away with excitement at the thought. I`m fine now.
Well said. Now, if we received a penny for every time this thought has been expressed on chowk, we would have had so much human development that by now every Paki would be cruising around in a BMW sports convertible. The Nobel Prize Committe would have moved it`s HQ to Faisalabad in order to make it easy for our boys and gals to swing by to pick up their prizes. Our mullahs would have so much halvah that they would turn into big balls and roll all over South Asia. And PIA would rule the skies, having bought out all other airlines.
Sorry, just got carried away with excitement at the thought. I`m fine now.
#77 Posted by samuel on November 30, 2000 6:59:15 pm
It seems the responses have digressed a little from what the intent of the article was.
However, needless to say, each of us seems to be struggling with the events that have occurred or seem to ocucr almost on a daily basis. Now and then one of us musters up some courage and talks about the reality our society is faced with. The `classes and cultures` that seem to be forever tangled in fist fights.
Who do we hold responsible and who do we blame? I fought with that question for the longest time. I, unlike ``Urstruly`` chose not to speak my mind. Perhaps I should have, but I did not. Instead, I tried to escape the grim reality, and therefore am still struggling to make peace with it. I witnessed similar events in my past, perhaps at a more personal level. But then we all make mistakes and I had a fair share of those. Lost some close friends, shot and killed in front of my very own eyes.
I too stood and stared blinking blankly in disbelief. I failed to fight the system, I had barely finished my O`Levels. I considered wreaking havoc, instead sought refuge at Math Tuitions and enjoyed the company of other 11th graders, and forgot about the life that existed outside of that hour for one hour everyday.
I made a mistake, I clenched my fist and kept it clenched, now its impossible to ease up.
I put myself at risk, I visited areas of karachi that perhaps are more dangerous to even think of let alone speak.
Urstruly, what you`ve talked about is very real, but know that it could and probably was alot worse like you said. I blame myself for alot of events, I`ve settled with the notion that I will rectify the situation when I`m in a position to, I`m not sure what that position is going to be and how I`ll do it.
As far as our Political arena goes, hhmm.. Pinky may or may not be responsible, you have all the right to hold her to it, I`d love to hold her to it as well, but what good does that do, I can find a dozen or more people responsible for just about every event that occurs in our lives.
I have`nt found the right answer yet, I`m not content with what I have found and therefore I can only just focus at the present and work myself to a point where I can affect the future and state of our nation.
However, needless to say, each of us seems to be struggling with the events that have occurred or seem to ocucr almost on a daily basis. Now and then one of us musters up some courage and talks about the reality our society is faced with. The `classes and cultures` that seem to be forever tangled in fist fights.
Who do we hold responsible and who do we blame? I fought with that question for the longest time. I, unlike ``Urstruly`` chose not to speak my mind. Perhaps I should have, but I did not. Instead, I tried to escape the grim reality, and therefore am still struggling to make peace with it. I witnessed similar events in my past, perhaps at a more personal level. But then we all make mistakes and I had a fair share of those. Lost some close friends, shot and killed in front of my very own eyes.
I too stood and stared blinking blankly in disbelief. I failed to fight the system, I had barely finished my O`Levels. I considered wreaking havoc, instead sought refuge at Math Tuitions and enjoyed the company of other 11th graders, and forgot about the life that existed outside of that hour for one hour everyday.
I made a mistake, I clenched my fist and kept it clenched, now its impossible to ease up.
I put myself at risk, I visited areas of karachi that perhaps are more dangerous to even think of let alone speak.
Urstruly, what you`ve talked about is very real, but know that it could and probably was alot worse like you said. I blame myself for alot of events, I`ve settled with the notion that I will rectify the situation when I`m in a position to, I`m not sure what that position is going to be and how I`ll do it.
As far as our Political arena goes, hhmm.. Pinky may or may not be responsible, you have all the right to hold her to it, I`d love to hold her to it as well, but what good does that do, I can find a dozen or more people responsible for just about every event that occurs in our lives.
I have`nt found the right answer yet, I`m not content with what I have found and therefore I can only just focus at the present and work myself to a point where I can affect the future and state of our nation.
#76 Posted by ali1 on November 30, 2000 6:59:15 pm
Dear Urstruly,
I am happy that you have some affection for Karachi. Most Punjabis who come to live in Karachi, to work in police, customs, banks, PIA and other institutions or to even go to Dawood Eng. College like you did, look down upon Karachi and Karachiites. Mohajir women are ``loose`` because they work, Mohajir men are ``phatto`` because they have a smaller pot belly on average than punjabis, you don`t get the same quality ``dudh, dahi and lassi`` as you get in Lahore......there is an endless list of reasons why Karachi is considered inferior to Punjab in general and Lahore in particular.
The police wallah types are there with a clear aim, to loot and plunder and send as much money back to Punjab as possible, to buy property and ``flying coaches``. [``SaadhiyaaN pichooN zaminaaN nain``]. More surprising are the Dawood college types who leave without civil society making a dent on their feudal mindsets.
sincerely.
I am happy that you have some affection for Karachi. Most Punjabis who come to live in Karachi, to work in police, customs, banks, PIA and other institutions or to even go to Dawood Eng. College like you did, look down upon Karachi and Karachiites. Mohajir women are ``loose`` because they work, Mohajir men are ``phatto`` because they have a smaller pot belly on average than punjabis, you don`t get the same quality ``dudh, dahi and lassi`` as you get in Lahore......there is an endless list of reasons why Karachi is considered inferior to Punjab in general and Lahore in particular.
The police wallah types are there with a clear aim, to loot and plunder and send as much money back to Punjab as possible, to buy property and ``flying coaches``. [``SaadhiyaaN pichooN zaminaaN nain``]. More surprising are the Dawood college types who leave without civil society making a dent on their feudal mindsets.
sincerely.
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