Desi Fate

Please don`t be taken in by anybody who refers to any sort of Desi by a color or lack of it.

Racism takes a back seat when it encounters education and wealth. And it`s not like the Desi don`t experience Racism or Ethnocentric behavior and ideology in their own home countries.

Some poor SOB trying to earn his daily bread by refering to another person as ``Sir`` does not desrve the contempt displayed on these posts. These persons WORK for a living. Empathy will come when one can relate.

Politeness and manners are mallmarks of civilized behavior that this Pakistani wishes, there was more of.

gymnosophist:#20

Nice to hear from you:

Demolishing or Desecrating a masjid is not something that has not happened before.History is full of such examples.(From Cordova to Jerusalem to Badshahi masjid at Lahore--18??).

You will be ``happy`` to know that `Muslims`(the ones worse than kaafirs) have carried out such ``Ghairathmand`` chivalries themselves.

After Karbalaa Yezeed & his cohorts ransacked the holy Kaaba,set fire to it and destroyed most of mecca & madina(This within 50 years of the new religion!).

So you see,Babri Masjid is not a great nuisance except for certain hindu elements who might have to do a lot of `paraischath` later----and that may mean embracing Islam themselves,of their own accord(this has ALWAYS been the pattern).

It doesn`t hurt to mention the mandirs that were built,re-built and/or preserved by Tippu Sultan.Can anyone from any creed lay such a claim?.

__________________________________________________

Let me repeat my contention about the slavish nature of the Indian(& the brood)[I do not like the term sub-continent].

The field-niggers & the house-niggers no longer exist.In fact it is not considered polite to use such terms anymore.

The Black man`s spirit was NEVER enslaved.That is why even today he is a nuisance for the establishment & the status quo.

The Indian,on the other hand,loves to be enslaved of his own accord.They are not the house-niggers but the White-house-niggers.Ever notice how India & the Brood(henceforth:I&B) drool & fall over each other to invite or get invited by the white man/woman to Iftaar/eid/or divaalee parties?This from those whose own Presidents and Prime Ministers do not wish their own people,thru radio or tv,Eid/ramazan mubarik or divalee/holee badhayyan.Ever notice how they send new years` greetings to their massass.

Peter Sellers in ``the Party`` has very aptly encapsuled the antics & sliminess of the elite,Ba Ba Blacksheep Indian or Pakistan & other I&B`s.

The greatest accolade that can be bestowed upon an I&P by a farangi is ``But,you do not look like an Indian or P--,or--etc etc``.Hell,I have seen some Pakees gloating over being mistaken for Black Americans.

The greatest ``achievment`` is ``Jee mein urdu/hindi naheen jaantha,buss thoree thoree cee``.Have you ever encountered ANYBODY who takes pride in what they CANNOT do?

``Oh!yes I drink like a fish,I can hold a lot of liquor but I am not a prude(read:I can do anything with my relatives what I want,no 7th century stuff for me I am very advanced you know``)--- this is another great accomplishment.

If the farangi markets their turds to the Ba Ba Blacksheep,they will find some rationale to sing its praise.

Their minds are mortgaged to the tail-bone at the farangi faculties.

__________________________________________________

Ref FARANGI_KUSH #: 9

You say {There is a glaring difference between prosperity & progress AND Ghairat.

Indians(& the brood around) are generally Bai-Ghairat.Docile,sychophants,kow-tows---would sell their soul & family for security,life,and material comforts.

Afghanistan is & never was a nation of beggars.India WAS(Except when ruled by Afghans,Turks,& Iranians),IS,& EVER WILL be a nation of beggars.The slimy,wriggly,jelly-like tail-tucking between the legs is vintage Indian.}

This is precisely why the RSS and the VHP not only demolished the Babri Masjid but feel that the mosques in Mathura and Benares should also be razed and Hindu temples raised at their locations. Then the ghairat of Bharat would be restored.

Since you would agree that Hindus can restore their ghairat only when they hit back at the invaders and destroyers, I am sure you would want to become a RSS member.

wassalaam. Better make it `Namaskar`!

Local beef for burgers

THE Newsweek of December 4, carries a lengthy article, Europe`s Beef Scare in which the deadly disease transmitted from bovines fed on meat meal and bone meal and commonly known as bovine spongiform encepalopathy (mad cow disease) has been reported to have spread across Europe. The human form of the disease known as the ``Creutzfeld-Jakob disease`` (CJD) has killed more than 70 people in Britain while the first case was of a 17-year old youth in France to contract the disease who was known to be a fan of fast food containing beef that ultimately fatally infected the boy.

The multinational fast food companies have invaded the world including Pakistan where they are importing beef for burgers. An urgent step to be taken to prevent the mad cow disease agent known as `Prion` from entering the food chain of Pakistan is to ban the entry of imported beef for use in burgers as no-one is sure of the origin of beef used in burgers sold by multinationals in Pakistan. Only local beef may be allowed to be used for burgers as our cattle are fed on a vegetarian diet and not meat meal or bone meal. This will save us from the spreading net of the mad cow disease which is threatening the whole of Europe and even Russia.

DR MUHAMMAD YAQOOB BHATTI

Lahore

//A local burger chain spokes person has stated that pakistanis will be unaffected by this brain decease.

Kabuliwallah # 12

Do not mistake being polite for docile.

FARANGI_KUSH # 9

Ghairat ?? Translate it into English.

Making generalizations about people is called stereotyping. It is dangerous. It lead to the breakup of Pakistan in 1971. I can hope Pakistani generals don`t have the same stereotypes about India and Indians.

There is nothing honourable about the current state of Afghanistan or its people or its rulers. They are a collective disgrace to humanity and to themselves. On top of it, they have suffered a lot in terms of life and property.

There are a lot of things wrong in India. But the foundations are being laid for a state and society that people can live in peace and prosperity.

There is nothing wrong in honour. Diverse societies like India will have a difficult time defining what is honorable and dishonorable.

If you want to address honour, explain to me what is so honourable about killing women who want to marry a man of their choice or killing women who are suspected of adultery. Or even if a women is guilty of adultery, what is so honourable about killing her ? Especially when men commit the same crime and get away with it.

Neither all Afghans are top of the tops nor all south asians are`bhangees``.such mad assumptions help nobody.As our part of the world is dominated by illiteracy,poverty,bigotry,etc we can not earn their respect generally.I am asked by many Americans ``what are the Afghans fighting about now``?They seem to have killed more people/destroyed more homes than did the russies.This is simply barbaric.we must wake up.Time/tide wait for nobody.we will soon end up in the dustbin of history as failures.

kabuliwalla:#12

ADDENDUM to:#14

The time to each kick each other`s a-se is a distant dream.Right now both(all) alongwith the rest of the third world ch--thy--aas(a-seh-les)

are vying to get themselves done by the massas.

Ghalib`s premonition,it seems:

``Ch--thy--onn kee kumee naheenn Ghalib

Aik dhoondo,huzaar miltay hain

Jitnay chaho Bihaar sey lay lo

Lutf yeh hai udhhaar miltay hain``

tr:There is no dearth of ar--h-les`` O Ghalib

Look for one,you`ll find a million

take as many as you like ,from Bihaar

and the beauty is;on credit!

In today`s context:

Bihar is a metaphor for colonial clones,and the credit is from IMF.

__________________________________________________

wassalaam

kabuliwalla:#12

Please read my post again.I have included India & the brood just to be impartialy mean.

Changing breakfast fare is not going to do get US anywhere.Were we not eating,drinking,and dressing OUR way before being ubjugated?.The repeat experience of living under subjugation starts a process when such existence becomes first a NORM,then a HABIT and then SECOND NATURE.It is from THEN on that it starts getting impregnated and transfered at the cellular & DNA level.

At this stage you start OBJECTING to the one who who has been lucky to have unknowingly given sanctuary to a stray freedom-gene and starts acting ``UPPITY``.

(There!I am not even a scientists,but I have expressed what the scientists would say in so many tomes & in weird-looking equations):)---:).

__________________________________________________

A healthy dose of IQBAL is de rigeur for ALL of Indian stock.Hindus & Muslims of Northern India & both Punjabs(the one`s priding themselves in their wheatish-complexion,the hash-brownies) need it like yesterday.

__________________________________________________wassalaam

Land of Acceptance and Respect!

Thanks Siddiqui for sharing this thought provoking and an eye opener book to us. This book is sure a must-read for all of us, living in this land of opportunity. We should also start thinking that how could we make this land with equal opportunities for all, for every person to be respected by his/her worth and not by his faith or origin. Even at higher level, we feel sometimes aliens on some occasions. A group of us was visiting a doctor friend in a big hospital who`d met a terrible accident. Most of our friends were Sub specialist doctors, computor programmers and engineers. The lady on desk was first amazed that how could so many people come to see a friend then she asked a friend of us who is cardiologist (originally from India), from where you have come, when he told the name of his city, she said no I mean originally where are you from? I wanted to ask her where are you originally from? We have to work for elimination of such mentality. As I tell my american friends that whole America is full of immigrants except red indians who are not visible mostly here. To be accepted and respected, we`ll have to be united and work as a group. But unfortunately, we are divided in different sections. We need a Martin Luther King to lead us to the Land of Acceptance and Respect. Trend in our folks is to work and progress individually and in that, we are successfull too in some ways. They are getting marvellous achievements in different fields. Most recent example is that of Night M.Shyalmalan(creator of Sixth Sense and Unbreakable), who has emerged as a Hollywood player,No. 77 on Entertainment Weekly magazine`s list of the 101 most powerful people in entertainment(ahead of David Letterman,Robert De Niro, and Leonardo DiCaprio). There are so many great lawyers,doctors, scientists and engineers. A lot of our folks boast of having dinner at White House.But as a whole, we don`t have any say specially in political spheres.

re: Farangi_Kush

Though I don`t agree with you about the Islamic crap (Afghan, Turk, Iranian, blah, blah, blah)...I do share with you the feeling that Indians are by and large servile and like to be dominated...S&Mers would have a field day here...I just returned from a Pizzeria and the waiter would say ``excuse me, sir`` for every damn thing he was about to do...every goddamn person you meet refers to you as `sir`...though he might be a very educated and accomplished person...with attitude like that India is not gonna be kicking Pakistan`s ass anytime soon...reason enough for you to be happy...unfortunately for you and fortunately for us (talk about joy in other peoples` miseries) I found the same attitude in Pakistan...I think I have a remedy...a start, if you will...lets stop eating bread, jam, butter for breakfast and cucumber sandwiches for tea...eeeew


Kabuli

In response to Syed Ahmed (Reply # 10)
Dear Syed Ahmed:

Your statement: “I think it is unfair to compare the `` Desi`` experience to the African American experience - even though we share similar concerns as minorities....”

Comment: This is an important distinction. Let me give it another twist. Most American liberal scholars have argued that immigrants had come voluntarily and had (de facto) voluntarily relinquished their national membership and associated national rights.

Both Michael Walzer (a left-liberal American political theorist) and Nathan Glazer (a right-liberal American sociologist) argue that the process of integrating voluntary immigrants differs from the assimilation of conquered or colonized national minorities, such as the American Indian, Puerto Ricans, native Hawaiians, etc. They maintain that it is wrong to deprive “intact and rooted communities” of mother-tongue education or local autonomy. Under these conditions, integration is an “imposed choice” which national minorities typically (and justifiably) have resisted. The integration of immigrants, by contrast, was aimed at peoples far more susceptible to cultural change, for they were not only uprooted; they had uprooted themselves. Nonetheless, neither Walzer nor Glazer endorse the self-government demands of American Indians, Puerto Ricans, native Hawaiians, etc. because they are incompatible with the American national consensus and state ideology. Walzer, however, maintains that the question of national rights within a multination state must be worked out politically.

Scholars sympathetic to multiculturalism, particularly Will Kymlicka, suggest that a comprehensive theory of justice in a multicultural state needs to include both universal rights, assigned to individuals regardless of group membership, and certain group-differentiated rights or special status for minority cultures.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahamd

I think it is unfair to compare the `` Desi`` experience to the African American experience - even though we share similar concerns as minorities....

African Americans were subject to genocidal and brutal practices associated witth slavery and has left a deep scar on their pshyche as a community - only recently have there been attempts to level the playfield for them ( and only mandated as law) - racially attitudes are still fairly polarised..

``Desis`` on the other hand were alreday equipped with the tools to compete in US society ( thanks to govt subsidised education in their mother countries)...and have done relatively well economically, - the glass celing exists for them only in large public corporations in the upper eschelons of management, even there they have made greater inroads in past few years by sheer force of tenacity and thanks to the entreprenuerial nature of the US economy...

As for the Desi cultural conflict, there are those Desis who are willing to embrace the melting pot millieu, - where there personal choices are consistent with their economic choices, consequently assimilation into the melting pot poses little problems for them...

Then there are those desis who want to be classified as mere economic refugees, people who want to enjoy the material comforts of their economic success while insulating their personal lives and their family structure and belief system from the ravages of western individualism. For them it is truly a struggle. The lure of individualism is just too strong for their progeny.. - the first thing to go is the langauage ..and perhaps the morbid thought of marrying outside the community, by the second generation - if they are lucky the only thig remain is tokens of religions as ethnic identifiers...-and so over a period of less then 2 generations the fabric of the family that was a shield against the volatility of the external forces in their motherland, dissolves against the push of individual needs in their stable envioronment of their adopted land.

Many try by building parochial environments based on religious and cultural settings and some even emigrate to other countries to escape ``freedom`` of Western individualism. Regardless, on how you look at it - these competing dichotommies of cultures, usually result in disappointment and heartache ...

babbu:#7&8

There is a glaring difference between prosperity & progress AND Ghairat.

Indians(& the brood around) are generally Bai-Ghairat.Docile,sychophants,kow-tows---would sell their soul & family for security,life,and material comforts.

Afghanistan is & never was a nation of beggars.India WAS(Except when ruled by Afghans,Turks,& Iranians),IS,& EVER WILL be a nation of beggars.The slimy,wriggly,jelly-like tail-tucking between the legs is vintage Indian.

What other can be the reason for being treated as a bhangee the world over by EVERYONE.

If you do consider prosperity & progress above ghairat & honour please do not respond.I`ll understand.

__________________________________________________wassalaam.

To Ras:

I agree with this statement ``We need to be closer to the black experience in this country today to understand what we may be up against.`` But the dynamics that govern relations with the White community are not the same. Indians are a microscopic minority as opposed to African-Americans who are a large minority.

The equivalent analogy would be relations between Hindus-Muslims and Hindus-Parsees in India.

The article ignores the fact that Whites are a declining majority. (70% currently versus 50% in a few decades)

There is a big difference between rhetoric and reality.

Am I supposed to put my kid in a drug infested inner-city school in the name of racial solidtary with people with color instead of sending them to a private school.

While there are racist attitudes and individuals in USA, this country is more tolerant of its diversity of any other society on earth. Remember Jesse Helms opposed civil rights legislation in the 1960s. Right now people like Helms are courting African American (other minority) votes out of self-interest.

To FARANGI_KUSH # 6:

Look at the Afghans. They fought the Soviets. But what do they have to show for it ?

In spite of all its poverty, India attracts impoverished immigrants from Bangladesh and Nepal, refugees fleeing ethnic and religious persecution from Sri Lanka, Burma and Tibet and increasingly capital and investment from Fortune 500 companies.

To Ras:

I agree with this statement ``We need to be closer to the black experience in this country today to understand what we may be up against.`` But the dynamics that govern relations with the White community are not the same. Indians are a microscopic minority as opposed to African-Americans who are a large minority. The eq

The article ignores the fact that Whites are a declining majority. (70% currently versus 50% in a few decades)

There is a big difference between rhetoric and reality.

Am I supposed to put my kid in a drug infested inner-city school in the name of racial solidtary with people with color instead of sending them to a private school.

While there are racist attitudes and individuals in USA, this country is more tolerant of its diversity of any other society on earth. Remember Jesse Helms opposed civil rights legislation in the 1960s. Right now people like Helms are courting African American (other minority) votes out of self-interest.

To FARANGI_KUSH # 6:

Look at the Afghans. They fought the Soviets. But what do they have to show for it ?

In spite of all its poverty, India attracts impoverished immigrants from Bangladesh and Nepal, refugees fleeing ethnic and religious persecution from Sri Lanka, Burma and Tibet and increasingly capital and investment from Fortune 500 companies.

Mohajir:

What a load of crap.

India is a poor country.Let us call it POOR in capitals.It is also a proud country.Let us call it PROUD in capitals.India also looks after its extended families and does not just accumulate wealth for its selfish-lust.

These are ALL virtues.

When you let someone give you freedom,You do not have it-----That is why love for the masters(former? is still there.

When you allow somebody to grant you a right,You do not have it.

This applies to lot other aspects of AZAD-human built-in characteristics.

__________________________________________________

These psychos(logists?) can PROVE anything,if there is a willing listener.

Ever heard of Never take no for an answer?Persistence,aggressiveness?

That poor chap who kept on calling was trying to be another Horatio Alger.Most Asians have been fed this Readers Digest stuff and a crash-diet of rags to riches fairy tales.

__________________________________________________

The Afghans,Ghairatmand quom,would never allow any farangi to tell him what is a proper ettiquette.The Afghan is a truly respected (& feared) everywhere.

The Indian,Pakistanees,Bangladeshis,Sri Lankans are treated like Bhangees for a reason.

They are used to this treatment by their masters at home AND do not mind treating those lower to them similarly.

Seeking security,love-for-money,non-inventiveness are the reasons Indians would always be slaves of somebody.

Those who lack GHAIRAT and cherish their life more & above it have to live like a slave...even if such overseers are called CEOs or Chairman etc.

__________________________________________________

It is the english-school system that has made you pliant & malleable & rheological.

__________________________________________________

WASSALAAM

How Westerners percieve Indians

LONDON: Indians were placed on the couch at the Nehru Centre here late last week. The hour-long session revealed the rough landscape of the inner universe of the NRIs.

The story that came out would make those living in India less envious of the green-card holders. The talk by Alan Roland, the New York-based author and practising psychoanalyst, seemed to answer the usually ignored question: What price success?

The Millennium Lecture on ``Significant differences in the Indian self compared to North European and North American self`` indicated that notwithstanding the hype about globalisation, the east and the west are unable to meet.

Citing case studies, Roland highlighted the problems encountered by Indians in their interaction with westerners. He talked about the ``bicultural self`` that develops upon immigration to western countries and compared various facets of the Indian familial self, rooted in hierarchical relationships, with the individualised self of westerners. The individualistic I-self of westerners provides a sharp contrast to the Indian We-self.

Roland illustrated how the psychological gulf between Indians and westerners living in America causes misunderstanding in work places. An Indian`s attempts to adapt at the work place causes conflict at home. Indians in America soon learn that the traits of modesty, deference, lack of assertiveness get them nowhere. In fact, normal Indian deference is often misinterpreted by superiors as passivity.

Hard-working and brilliant Indians discover that salary increases are not given unless demanded. An Indian mother learns only to distract the child by offering alternative gratification rather than saying a firm ``no``. Westerners are unable to cope with the multi-level communication, ambiguity and empathic sensing that Indians are accustomed to. Indian communication is as non-verbal as it is verbal.

Indians in whose familial self self-esteem is central, find the American forthright critiques hurtful. Accustomed to interdependence, Indians believe that asking is also a form of giving. Roland spoke of a young brilliant Indian looking for a job whom he had recommended to an American CEO friend. The young man was told that the company would inform him if a place fell vacant. But he kept ringing the CEO who was irritated, not realising that the young man by approaching him again and again was only trying to enhance the potential giver`s self-esteem.

What is proper in Indian relationships is contextually based on time, place, nature of the hierarchical relationship. Thus an Indian tends to say one thing to one person and something quite different to another on the same topic. Westerners who assume universal laws and a universal human nature can look quite askance at this.

American assertiveness, forthright verbal communication, autonomy of decision-making are internalised so that one can function in American society. But there is often a great deal of inner anguish and struggle in Indians to have these two very different selves live together. The second generation also faces great conflicts between a more Americanised self and an Indian self derived from family relationships.

Roland`s introductory remarks indicated that the impact of the self-loathing taught to Indians by their colonial masters endures. He said Indian culture and Indians were pervasively denigrated. Indians were often seen as hypocritical, deceptive, passive, dependent, effete, superstitious, lacking in individuality and having only a collective self. ``These attitudes affect Indian men much more than Indian women, who seem to be more comfortable with the indigenous culture and ways of being. I think it is still a delicate issue for many educated Indian men as to how westerners regard them.``

Nice article, as usual.

Looks like an interesting read.

Thank you.

Chowk Staff:

Just after my reply # 2, I searched for ``Diaspora`` and found no article on it. Maybe you could start using a system of ``Keywords`` as well, for each contribution on the Chowk.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Dear Ras:

Thanks for your review and introducing a very important topic. Diaspora studies will soon be in fashion among the South Asian expats.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad