Ghazali On Women In Islam

Please read the first sentence in my last post as

``I do not comprehend the moral dilema in having more than ONE wife.``

FOUR WIVES

I do not comprehend the moral dilema in having more than four wives. To put it in another way, ``what`s the big deal``?

If Mian Biwi Raazi to Kia karay gaa Qazi, or US Law, or Judge Judy or a liberal ape jumping from tree to tree.

Men and women always find ways to by pass ``laws``. The swingers at one extreme and the milk man fantasy on the other will always be there no matter what you do.

I also do not think that the US Law of one Spouse at a time is established and driven by any morality-the denominator in this case is the Tax Deduction.

Goddamn those taxes.

tahmed321 (#203)

``You have obviously scraped the bottom of the barrel to come up with these examples. These are exceptions.``

I think the use of extremes to illustrate a point is quite okay. Since we were discussing the issue of respecting all religions, why leave out these ones that some people subscribe to as devoutly as others? Is validity attached to numbers?

``People think about Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism when discussing the world`s great religions, not the KKK or Hubbard`s Church.``

We were not discussing the world`s great religions only. Anyway, the use of the word `great` -- based on sheer strength of following is silly. In different ages and in different times, different religions have enjoyed ``greatness``.

``Since exceptions prove the rule, you have proved my point and I thank you for it and trust that you will be a man and admit it.``

Errr.. what was your point again?? Hey, if it makes you feel good, Okay, I`ll be `man` enough and admit whatever you accuse me of.

btw, the point I was making in #193 was that it is indeed risky to be openly honest when discussing religion. Or SOME religions anyway :)

Ta

AH #194 As examples of religions that are less than equal to others you provide the following examples: ``... The Church of Scientology, The Church of the Latter Day Saints, the Church of Satan, The Ku Klux Clan.``

You have obviously scraped the bottom of the barrel to come up with these examples. These are exceptions. People think about Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism when discussing the world`s great religions, not the KKK or Hubbard`s Church.

Since exceptions prove the rule, you have proved my point and I thank you for it and trust that you will be a man and admit it.

AH #195 I tried figuring out what you meant here, and all I got was a headache. Couldnt figure out what you meant.

macgupta #193 I too wish we would have a bit more humor on chowk that is really funny. I mean humor that is not designed to ridicule the ``other side`` of the religious or nation-state divide, but of the kind you posted.

ninah,

........ how silly can you get? when it comes to organized religion, especially islam, silliness knows no bounds ........ it makes otherwise wise men and women babble like idiots, foaming at the mouth, tearing at their hair and beating their chests to defend the indefensible, blinded by faith and the fear of the unknown .....scared out of their wits by the endless chantings of hell and brimstone and fire....they pound the streets in hijab, extolling the virtues of islam and the freedom it gives them to let the handi burn on the stove while they, married at ten or twelve as the fourth wife to a momin are free to bear half a witness to the articles of freedom enshrined in a divine constitution, signed sealed and delivered by the archangle himself - or is it, herself........ talk about being delusional and masochistic

``I think rationalization of everything we read in the Quran is the only way for thinking intelligent people to read and understand it so we can assimilate in our lives``

Rationalise This :

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

....... all the lawyers in philadelphia, even good ole judge sanders saul himself, cannot put a spin on this directive from Him himself which can justify any man made law against spousal abuse ..... even the Florida legislature cannot pass a law which can take away the god-given right to beat one`s wife on special occasions ...... and of course we cannot have a constitutional amendment to amend god`s infallible word ....... and he does not talk to us anymore - but then again, since this is the month of ramadhan he might change his mind........ however this can be dangerous business, because the faithful don`t take kindly to new revelations - ask the ahmedis .......

Ninah #198

“I rationalized the saying I had heard about women being more deficient in their intelligence vis a vis men( before I knew it was from a Hadith - and when I heard that I was very relieved -I didn`t think it could ever been said in the Quran”

Even if it was said in Quran, you could have rationalized it with your own logical mind and creative interpretation in light of the ENTIRE Quranic text... couldn’t you? Like you have rationalized the 4 wives issue or 1 man witness = 2 women witnesses issue? Why were you so worried?

Let me be blunt… when you talk about Islam being a complete system… and when you intend to run a country based on that system… a widely acceptable interpretation of all the decrees and all the injunctions is a must… It cannot be left to individuals to indulge in creative interpretations of Quranic injunctions and decide for themselves what an injection/decree “really” means… this would be like saying that whatever the interpretation of constitution of US of A may be (in the eyes of US courts/judiciary), I am going to rationalize all the laws based on my own understanding, and creative interpretation of the constitution. You are likely to end up in Jail if you did that.

Do you reject Islam as a complete system?

AH 2000

I have a feeling that we are gonna get along very well. I am looking forward to some meaningful conversation in near future.

Rsaxena

I have learned from the best of the best. Being the second best will be an honor.

Tahmad321

I am quite impressed with your post too. You know, I am impressionable. I do respect honesty and I think it can be done without agreeing. I also beleive that the contempt and honesty do not go together-. So you see me appreciating Jay, and Rsaxena but not this Laqoot who calls himself A.shiraz.

AH #190 I think Jay converted to Islam and has gone to perform the hajj to beg forgiveness for his sins. He has also obtained a Pakistan flag which he salutes every morning, following which he sings PakSarZamin.

tahmed321 (#192)

just to clarify...

you say: ``There are indeed some soft-headed folks (I plead guilty) who happen to think that there is more than one path to worshipping God, and one should respect other people`s beliefs.``

There may be a thousand different paths to worshipping God. It doesn`t, however, follow that every belief of every religion is what we might consider ennobling or leading to God.

Part of living a godly life would be having the wisdom to overcome degrading stricures, and the courage to speak out against them, don`t you think?

Tahmed321 (#192)

``...However, it doesnt take much to be honest when you are writing anonymously. So, I conclude that you are easily impressed``

I am glad you agree that with all those self-righteous, insecure, trigger happy folks around, it`s not easy to even BE HONEST and show oneself.

Love,

you-know-who

TAhmed321 (#180 & #192)

[AH2000 #175 ``Nothing irks me more than `neo-liberal` talk about `all religions being equally good`` and all.``

Why does this irk you? You should reserve your irk for more serious things, otherwise you may get a heart attack and what good would that do to you?]

Let me see now... The Church of Scientology, The Church of the Latter Day Saints, the Church of Satan, The Ku Klux Clan. What do they have in common? Anyone? Anyone?

(Okay so he KKK isn`t exactly a religion, but they may as well be... ummm... then again, they don`t have a vast supply of guilt, so maybe not :) )

The ``All Religions Are Good and Equal`` contention is only so much of political correctness. After all, with devotional fervour running as high as it does, it`s naturally much easier to just `keep the peace` in the short run while the seeds of intolerance and bigotry are sown and take root-- rather than set out ot expose the wrong in - shall we say `belief systems`?

`` Your point about many muslims being unduly defensive on anything with the adjective ``Islam``, even if it is a mere individual like Ghazalli who has no mention in Islamic theology (!).``

Were this debate only about Ghazali, it would have died out about a hndred or so posts ago. But then Shraz threw in other juicy stuff right out of the Hadith and Quran. THAT kind of `insulted` many of us, I reckon.

``What we ought to get mad about are when Islam - the system of values related to learning, fairness, kindness and charity and so forth - are attacked.``

If Islam is being ``attacked`` with words and ideas, surely it is powerful enough to repulse any such attack. This is hardly a battle where MIGHT can conquer all.

If Islam is being portrayed as other than ``the system of values related to learning, fairness, kindness and charity and so forth`` -- by all means, fight back -- IN KIND (as someone has finally done in quoting surah 4:19!) Don`t whine, snarl, pathetically change subjects or complain. Learn to live in a world where ideas are going to be challenged and need to be defended. If you can`t do it in the non-material world of cyber-space, one can only imagine what reaction you might show in `real life`.

``And only when by getting mad we are going to accomplish something.``

Quite right. We NEED to get mad about some things when we think they`re wrong. The author seems to believe that Islam is (or is very capable of)

perpetuating bad habits and sttitudes. He`s mad about it. He`s trying to `accomplish something`.

He`s obviously presenting a one-sided picture. There is a lot more to Islam. But rather than countering these admittedly embarrassing quotes with nobler ones, most here are getting into what PM aptly described as `intellectual contortionism`. If this in itself isn`t irksome, you must surely have very low expectations of the human mind and morality.

tahmed123 -- Bernard Lewis is a Western scholar of Arabic, and has translated some into English. One of his books had these jokes (and some more).

Why I love those jokes is because it completely humanizes those people from long ago for me. They were able to delight me from across hundreds of years and a very different time and place.

If we could somehow replace current grimness (as in the main article in this thread) with that ancient playful spirit we might be better off.

-Arun Gupta

Urstruly #178 I am glad you are impressed by what`s his handle`s honesty. However, it doesnt take much to be honest when you are writing anonymously. So, I conclude that you are easily impressed.

And furthermore: You are impressed because the poster expresses contempt for those who think all religions are equal. There are indeed some soft-headed folks (I plead guilty) who happen to think that there is more than one path to worshipping God, and one should respect other people`s beliefs. In fact, the definition of a kafir in my book is a person who ridicules others` beliefs, as is done sometimes by some people on chowk (some Hindus, some Muslims, but both basically kafirs).

So, it seem to me while being easily impressed you are also impressed by unimpressive thoughts.

macgupta #172 Those were really funny. Is this a website?