Ghazali On Women In Islam

________________________________________________

tahmed:

I think it was the controversy that created the havoc than the consistency of the author`s views. I do not care much for the author`s views, but I must admit that he writes very well. An observant chap! Specially, if you read his other stories they have the conscious element of observation, alertness, and sweetness (at times only). On the other hand, there is an obvious naivety displayed every now and then.

Later,

Let`s see if this post becomes the 400th one, thereby completing the fourth century, which is around the time the nameless author of this worthless article seems to think the world is today.

Also tells the great interest generated by an article that deserved at most one response. That response being directed to the chowk editors, reminding them not to be asleep on the switch when junk like this is sent to be published. But I guess, hits are what counts, not quality. Far better articles written on far worthier subjects on chowk (like the one on Darul-Sakun), on the other hand, simply slide quietly away into the Prev 10 cemetery. I dont have any solutions.

A Shiraz, the evil twin lies within. Sorry I came in late -- or are you just relieved? I agree that women are given the raw deal, but by all religions. And when they are ripe, it is the men who move in for the kill. And they do not consult their gods about how to go about doing it. They have their godforsaken hormones, their egos massaged by unsuspecting houris and the derangement caused by imbibing alcohol that goes by their own name.

I am touched by your concern for the female species. However, it would be interesting for you to see a few posts, especially by a certain Solitude, on both my board as well as this one. Do you think he shows any respect towards women? Is he any better than the Taliban , simply because he chooses to denounce religion? I wonder what kick he gets from wanting to see a woman with a moustache (it probably excites him a hell of a lot) or seeing me with my hair scattered.

It would be nice if the `compiler` of this article took note of these contradictions. And yes, btw, if you do notice Shiraz,er, Solitude, do ask him to get in touch with me, since he has scampered away from my Board. He needn`t worry, since I do not promote myself as a `lady`, a creature he seems to be so afraid of.

Meanwhile, do keep in mind that when you talk about the status of women it comes with the enhanced status of men. And most have fallen in the eyes of women, anyway.

Regards,

Farzana

Rabiya:#394

Aap ko aur sabhee CHOWK mohallay-vaalon ko:

bohut bohut

E I D M U B A R AK

ho.



wassalaam

PM # on your latest reply!

With the kind of institutions which have been strengthened 1000 years back under the influence of multiple influences like greek thoughts etc. But these institutions have been fossilized as REAL Islamic teachings for the past 1000 years. We can only expect Bin Baaz to degrade West and harp the greatness of Muslims in past as the real purpose and intent of Islam.

In Tillon Main Tail Naheen`` There is no oil in these sesame seeds as the saying goes.

We have to carry our own cross in this world and hereafter.

Religion may have a place in this world, but priests of every religion have absolutely no place to get their benefit in the name of religion at the expense of people`s emotions.

krasihd,

thanks for the response. The question(s), however, was..

``4) Are there any instances in which this Ijtehad produced jurispudence that overrode the explicit injunctions of the Quran/Sunnah? Are there any devices/loopholes through which this would be possible?``

You provided an instance of an ACTION (perhaps impromptu? perhaps unknowledgeable of Quranic injunction?) -- not of jurispudence.

There is no shortage of unIslamic laws and actions by Islamic leaders. That, however, was not the question...

My intent was to ascertain the extent of change possible through Ijtehad, which two hundered posts ago was quite the magic pill being passed around.

Later,

PM

---------

P.S I didn`t quite get your drift on intentions.

Omar (#386)

In which religion? I know that in the TOrah/Old Testament, the Porphet Amos sings the praises of the female attributes of God.

rgds

All I want to say is, this article only adds to he attested ignornace we are all ignorant of. Talk about ancient theories being tested today! We all need to take pride in our religion. Women are not victims, we are one`s who triumph through it all, and its our time to shine, as for Islamic feminism, there is no need, without women there would be no men. Respect and love for all!

Eid Mubarak!

Rabiya

Omar 1974

Your question has no context.

We only know God by HIS attributes.

And none of them is related to gender.

It is more of a language restriction, I think. Otherwise nobody knows the exact nature of God moreso, male or female.

Prem:#381

You were never guilty of anything my dear dear fellow human being & friend.Nor am I so innocent;)

Ever since the newtonian mechanics,the theologians of atheism & secularism(also known as philosophers & thinkers of modern age)have developed an inferiority complex so garangatuan that it managed to last 3 centuries and infest superior civilisations.

Rationalism (can also be,if I am allowed to coin new terms here,EXCUSIM or APOLOGISM,DOUBTISM) is the curse of the present-day human.Neccessity is no longer the mother of invention.It is invention who is in search of a long lost mother & seeking adoption.A product in search of a market.A war on the look-out for seeds of hatred.And an America itching to prop up a bogey-man------simply because it has nothing to do;like the local feudal who out of boredom kills a hari(serf).

Ever wonder why the society in search of happiness has the most sharaabees,bhangees,charsees,madkees,ganjees,and haramees in the world.This is what our Ba Ba Blacksheep are after.Here reason fails & Rationality takes over.This is the time when oven orders are placed and this is the time when it becomes important to pry open brains to look where the RATIONALITY emanates from.

The effects of intoxicants on deranging the brain are obvious.Heck,that`s the idea isn`t it?

Until & Unless we exorcise the demons of farangi colonialism from among our midst Pyaar,Prem and Ishque o mohabbet will continue to languish on the shores of Calicut.

wassalaam.

Scout

My apologies.

Re: TAhmad

``An inability to change one`s views is not an attribute of adulthood, I think, if by adulthood you mean maturity.``

You are right. What I meant to imply was that adults are less likely to see or admit the flaws in their beliefs than children...the irony is that adults are supposed to be more mature. Sorry for the sloppy language.

(Obivously, my statement is a general one...I`m sure there are adults who are exceptions to this.)

Hamidm:

As I read your enlightening and beautiful thoughts, something flashed inside me - my devilish mind took a yawn and woke up[greeting everyone with a polite hello and a sweet smile]. I could not resist asking you -- the sweet and
sarcastic one with all the foresights and the insights -- your esteemed perspective on few issues. These issues[Musai`l]require careful
contemplation and should be addressed when one is sober. A succinct argument will be very be much
appreciated!

Musail-ae-Tassuvuf`
@

question for Omar #386: I hope such profound questions do not take up too much of your time.

Rasaxena #375 ``c) Most participants are adults who aren`t going to change their opinions because of something they read on Chowk.``

An inability to change one`s views is not an attribute of adulthood, I think, if by adulthood you mean maturity.

Zahra:

Thank you.

The modern advanced generation like yours is the trail blazer for a new Pakistan and a beacon for the Ummah.Ylh,scout,urstruly,Omarphoenix,fairdinkum,

ali1,Umair and so many other staunch & proud muslims equally a success at the secular level are the ``Quindeels`` for the wayward caravaan.

``Andheri raath judaa apnay Quaflay say hai thoo

Teray liyay hai meraa shola`aa e nava Quindeel``

ALLAMA IQBAL.

Please savour the above by pondering over its profound meanings,once the music of the verses loosen their hold on you.

The farangi tomes are now the refuge of bugs, roaches,& termites-------the Ba Ba Blacksheep re-incarnate.Let sleepy `clods` lie.

Wassalaam.

Question for all.

Is it/could it be considered blasphemy to refer to God`s gender as female, in Islam by a Muslim in print?

Hey Pankaj!

just been kinda busy lately... and trying to kick the chowk habit :-) (with little success, obviously)

later,

P

PM #113

Sorry for belated reply.

The incidence, was with Umar RZAH when instead of distributing booty according to Koran, he distributed it among the conquered people.

I have to find reference.

This is not the only incidence, there are many among initial Muslims.

And the sarcastic approach is the only approach not for righteous people but self-righteous people.

Pankaj #373, `` Unfortunately I guess scout takes some things in life too seriously. Lighten up baby.``

Firstly, I think the use of the word ``baby`` here was uncalled for. This isn`t a bar or local hangout for you to take the liberty of calling me ``baby`` when I haven`t taken the liberty of calling you anything short of your name.

Secondly, don`t we all have to take some things seriously?

``But at the end of the game, it should be said ``No hard feelings``.``

Please read my post #358, to which Rsaxena responded agreeably (and which you quoted).

You`ll have the answer to your concern about this matter.



scout

http://www.economictimes.com/today/16econ12.htm

Britain summons Indian rail experts!

LONDON

INDIAN rail signal experts and maintenance engineers are being hired by a major British engineering company to repair the country`s faulty rail network.

A spokesman for the British company Jarvis Rail, which has a partnership agreement with Rail India Technical Engineering Services, confirmed that 14 signaling and design engineers had already been hired from India and the company was looking for 50 more at salaries in the region of 40,000 pounds per annum.

``We are looking for top-caliber, competent and capable staff,`` the spokesman said. ``There is a shortage of skilled workers, in particular, in the United Kingdom and India is a good source to find these.``

The step by Jarvis, which is based in the Hertfordshire village of Watton at Stone, north of London, adds rail specialists to the flow of Indian IT professionals and teachers finding jobs in Britain and other Western countries.

Britain`s troubled rail network has recently been overwhelmed by problems exacerbated by rising costs and poor track maintenance that has contributed to a series of accidents. Cancellation of regular services and routine delays, sometimes by as much as 10 hours, has affected every aspect of national life.

Ironically, it was British engineers who first built India`s own railway system, laying the Calcutta to Delhi track in 1851. In 1921 Edward the Eighth, then the Prince of Wales, paid a visit to India to see for himself the vast network of railways built by British companies.

This is the second time in less than a month that a British company has come knocking at India`s door in search of skilled professionals. Last month a British education recruitment firm announced it was hiring Indian teachers to teach English in British schools.

The Leicester-based Initial Education Personnel disclosed that it was hiring 120 Indian teachers and would pay them up to 20,000 pounds per month to teach in British schools.

Jarvis, which has 700 million pounds worth of contracts with Britain`s Railtrack, is currently bidding for the contract to maintain the British east coast line main from London to Scotland. A decision is expected early in the New Year.

Kevin Hyde, a senior executive with Jarvis, said, ``It`s very technical stuff, but basically there is a worldwide shortage of signaling and design engineers. India has more engineers than anyone else in the world and they have a good reputation.``

``We`re not hiring from India because its cheap labour. We`re paying the full consulting rate. In fact we`ve been recruiting from all over the world, but there are very few places left to recruit from for our signaling requirements.``

``The signaling system here in Britain is the same as anywhere else. A sudden upsurge in expenditure requires a design input and most countries haven`t maintained the level of skills for this once in a generation requirement. - IANS







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Dear FARANGI_KUSH,

A VERY late response.

You are right. Emotions--particularly joy, happiness--have their own value. It is foolish to always mess them up by bringing in the ghost of logic. I plead guilty.

True to my name, I have a very simple and simpleminded religion:

What brings happiness to you and to others is good; what brings pain to you and others is bad; what brings pain to you and but happiness to others deserves your attention--it may actually multiply your happiness; what brings happiness to you but pain to others also deserves your attention--it may actually multiply your pain.

As you can see, I do not always succeed in following my religion :)

Best

Re: Urstruly #376

I rest my case. (As I was saying, d is the fun part about Chowk...thanks for being the bakra to prove my point...idiot)

on
[Aurat and Taa`leem]
[Zurb-ae-Kaeem]
by Iqbal

on
[Aurat and Taa`leem]
[Zurb-ae-Kaeem]
by Iqbal

Rsaxena

Your bitchin` and moanin` on the other board (Babri Board) contradicts a,b,c,& d. Are you kidding yourself or playing with yourself? :)

Re: Pankaj

``RSaxena appears to be a young man who loves chowk for some playful activities.``

You got that right.

How can you take a message board so seriously....it is addictive and entertaining nevertheless.

I realize that:

a) This is a message board, not real life

b) No significant political or social movements are going to get started here - only bit#hing and complaining. It`s good to vent though.

c) Most participants are adults who aren`t going to change their opinions because of something they read on Chowk.

d) Some people take Chowk and other message boards too seriously - it is fun (childish fun I suppose) to needle them a bit.

RSaxena,

{{Anyway, aren`t you a grown man? Act you age. I know you aren`t a 20-something so there`s no excuse for any immaturity.}}

Hate to admit this, but I think your right. My apologies to you & anyone else who was offended by my raunchy language.

Hi scout and RSaxena

N.B This post is not meant for serious readers.

RSaxena: ``Yup, it`s all a give-and-take. No hard feelings...or even if there are, no use crying and whinning about them and throwing a fit.

``

Look scout, this is the true spirit of the game. I guess your(both of you) wavelengths match(or rather resonate) at some level. RSaxena appears to be a young man who loves chowk for some playful activities. Unfortunately I guess scout takes some things in life too seriously. Lighten up baby.But at the end of the game, it should be said ``No hard feelings``.

Dear PM

Howz is life. You appear to be quiet these days!

Cheers

Mushtaq Farooqui Sahib,

Thanks for the reply. Wish you every success with your projects.

Your ideas on the mystical nature - or side - of Islam I found very interesting indeed. I have known many devout Muslims who bear testimony to the ennobling nature of this aspect of Islam. And I am forced into a paradigm shift on reading Armstrong or Rumi and Shariati.

However, what troubles me is the question of whether, on the average, more humans would naturally be drawn/pushed towards the more mundane and anachronistic teachings Islam than the more sublime side you have been fortunate to have been exposed to, by your admission, from an early age. It would be great if we could focus only on the mystical and sublime (as does, say, Armstrong) and even see the metaphysical side of the some practical teachings. Yet I cannot help think of this as irresponsible in a way.

Is the successful following of (mystical) Islam contingent in some way upon intellect and education-- while the ``Lashkaris`` and neighbourhood mullahs condemned to a more practical and often vulgar reading?

best regards,

PM

sb #368,

thanks for the kind words at the end of ur post.

the teasing doesn`t bother me as much as it might have in the past.

PM #361, ``C`mon guys!! Show some love! You`ve long since finished debating the ISSUE of drinking.``

I agree. But I`m not showing love to these creeps.

:)

peace,

scout

ps: chowk addiction, maybe, but family breakup?

nahhhhhhhhh

to whom it may concern: ``so you are against alcohol but an occasional joint before going to night clubs is OK ?``

Who said a joint before going to a night club is ok? Where did this joint issue come from anyway?

I thought the pre-club high was Ex these days.

shankar #338:

Well, if you put it that way, what can I say, but :-) !

Something tells me though that we may not find this particular musalmaan`s company disagreeble in hell, though he might continue to harass us with racist slurs on the Indoo uppitiness...

Whatever happened to the conspiracy theorists as you reveal your conspiracies? F Versey would have spotted this one right away!

-----

scout #350: ``Ummm, last time I checked, social drinking, merlots, and Chardonnays weren`t normal Desi cultural aspects. How many times do I have to repeat that? Maybe things have changed now, but it`s due to Western influence.``

I specifically said that the people of an entire caste in India have been eking a living out of making and selling liquor for 100s of years. People have been drinking (not merlots and chardonnays and not in 21 century bars) socially in India since much before the western influence. I am a teetotaler, where`s the point in getting defensive? Just wanted to point out a few factual errors in your posts. After that, its a wide world and you are entitled to your views on the chowk.

I think the personal slurs in #343 and #344 from Solitude are uncalled for.

RSaxena, #339

``God help your patients and you``.

Surely you meant, God help your shrink and you!:-)

Kant...

All this hub-ubb for what? Do we realize that we`re taking Ghazali to be a beacon of purity, when we don`t even know what his own standing was.

Was Ghazali a man of his own learning or is the lineage of learning coming down to him the bigger cause of his biases. You are forgetting to observe that Islam is tainted with the brutalities of the early Khalifah`s, after the Rashideen, of course. Yazid and Muaiwyah didn`t sit on the throne to no effect. The lies they spread had to come back to bite us sooner or later.

Could this not be one of the results of their doings???

Don`t merely study the effect.

Examine the cause as well...

Buzzaz.

Re: shankar shrink

You seem to have gone through a 3-stage evolution...first you tried to be a self-flagellating, tree-hugging idiot looking for Pakistani friends, then you became sad and angry because a few hamidms and RSaxenas pissed you off, and finally you threw a fit/tantrum hurling phallic language at people (eg. your pleas with ylh to not get ``erections``)

Anyway, aren`t you a grown man? Act you age. I know you aren`t a 20-something so there`s no excuse for any immaturity.

shankar #338: Well, if you put it that way, what can I say, but :-) ! Something tells me though that we may not find this particular musalmaan`s company disagreeble in hell, though he might continue to harass us with racist slurs on the Indoo uppitiness...

Whatever happened to the conspiracy theorists as you reveal your conspiracies? F Versey would have spotted this one right away! :-)

scout: [shrug!] Its a wide world, and takes all kinds, I guess. See you around. (i think #343 and #344 from Solitude are uncalled for)

Re: scooty

``And I`m sure Solitude and Rsaxena don`t cry over my calling them kalay angrez or do they?``

Not at all. I`m sure Solitude doesn`t either but you can ask him that.

``Rsaxena,especially, calls me lots of things.

Doesn`t bug me too much. Oreo isn`t a bad word by the way.``

Yup, it`s all a give-and-take. No hard feelings...or even if there are, no use crying and whinning about them and throwing a fit.

Fuzair, scout, Rsaxena

Quit it already!!

scout, here`s something to think about ... chowk addiction and how it may lead to family break-ups. :-)

C`mon guys!! Show some love! You`ve long since finished debating the ISSUE of drinking.

regards,

Re: Scout #358

I don`t know, in the US, calling someone an Oreo is a term of derision: ``black on the outside but white inside`` is pretty insulting. It carries exactly the same connotations as kala angrez. Certainly my black friends in college described it as a pretty insulting term. Of course, it depends who is using it and the tone that is used. The opposite of this, as used by Chris Rock, is to call someone a `nigger.` Some blacks call each other `nigger` but that is its use among friends. When used insultingly by blacks it means the same as `white trash` (when that is used to describe whites).

In your case, I doubt you were using it as a term of endearment.

Regards.

Reply #: 352 OMAR1974
``PLEASE POST THE CORRECT CITATIONS FOR THE SOURCES you used for this compilation``

Revival of the Religious Sciences page 41
(Ihy`a `Uloum ed-Din by Ghazali)
and the Book Of Counsel For Kings page 233-34

Publisher : Dar al-Kotob al-`Elmeyah, Beirut

Most of them are from Kitab An Nikah. These are all Islamic books written by Muslims and studied by Muslim scholars. Other pages, volumes, publishers, city of publication are all on the main page - i.e. if you had cared to look before CAPSing me.

The common layman is strictly advised against reading the Quran and Ahadith on their own. I will quote from a major Islamic website :

``Warning (especially for Muslims)

Scholars of Islam did not allow students to quote from Quran and Hadith until the students had actually come to them and learnt from them directly. ``

But the few brace souls who want to put their faith at risk, those few who want to know rather than believe can do so without the gentle brainwashing censor of a devout(ly brainwashed) Muslim.

I once asked to borrow an Imam`s copy of Tafseer Ibn Kathir he looked at me quite lecherously while we both sat in his hujra.

He told me specifically ``it takes years of Islam before you can read the quran with its meaning``. I insisted and pleaded but he refused.

Why did I plead because my own father (a hafiz, a ``muttaqi`` etc.) refused to give me his own copy of the Quranic Interpretations. My father hid the copies because I was beating him at his own arguments and the Hafiz and ``Mudarris al Quran`` (my father) had to look up the references I provided in the Quran and nod his head in agreement. Those were very trying times for my father`s faith and he made sure I felt his trials as well. Today he sees the darkness within Islam, and is on his way to becoming quite a moderate.

In those days I knew Islam was wrong but I had no money or cloths to prove it. They had taken away all my ID papers and passports so that I could not even start a life of my own. But I knew that if I got hold of the Tafaseer of Quran (meanings and interpretations) I would further demolish their collective tyranny.

I was never subjucted to orthodox Islam - I was merely exposed to it. I was never forced into anything, I was spoiled, I was and still am the king! (they love me despite everything and I love them equally). In Islam a man has quite a few advantages and to give all that up is not easy.
I was not forced primarily because my father is a born again Muslim (he used to be a fighter Pilot -quite modern and secular until he turned Islamic -and is now moderating again).

I have never had problems with my grandmother stopping me from shaving ... (unlike some unfortunate women - but ofcourse there is no misfortue in being hairy! one can always find compatible men with hair on the back of their neck , and hair on the back of their hands - not to mention some men who are cheap enough to give themselves haircuts with shaved off side burns)

I am sorry ignore that, I am still suffering from a $108 haircut from a very feminine French hairdresser-dude.

Fellows, the best is yet to come ... so pull yourselves up. I do not mean you any harm - I am only one man against a mob - I only intend to demolish your (Borg) collective. I only ask that you let me love all humanity in the best way I know how : to expose those who have religious, sexist, homophobic, racist prejudices. In the meanwhile please stand up for your own selves - not some Ummah and you will see who is on your side (you ofcourse).

p.s. to a certain someone : so you are against alcohol but an occasional joint before going to night clubs is OK ? Please spare us ``confused`` Pakistani ``twenty somethings`` your ``pity``. You seem to have too much ``pity`` for _``twenty something``_ Pakistanis in particular.

And by the way : there are 2 girls who refused to kiss me. Both of them were Muslims and one of them was fasting and emanating that smell from her mouth which ``Allah prefers over musk`` (refs. will be provided). Things are coming along fine with her ... I don`t force her into anything and she ends up reading my mind and the minds of underground pornographers. Love her to death :)

As for the second Muslim girl I think she was afraid my teeth would get tangled in her moustache.

Tell her I would prefer flossing my teeth with her hair anyday over living a hairless existance. Tell her I am a sucker for her hair. Tell her I would sooner drink the waterfall of her hair and graze in that dark wild grass. Tell her I am so heartless because I lost myself in the web of her hair. ohh women ...

Fuzair #354, ``Your posts are (i) calling people who drink kala angrez or Oreos and worse and (ii) of how bad drinking is.``

I only abuse people I`ve suffered abuse from on Chowk. They are capable of defending themselves by the way. I`ve already apologized to chotu #255 because I was unduly harsh with him.

And I`m sure Solitude and Rsaxena don`t cry over my calling them kalay angrez or do they?

Rsaxena,especially, calls me lots of things.

Doesn`t bug me too much. Oreo isn`t a bad word by the way.

#346,

thanks

Solitude #344,

Your sense of humor is crude, lewd, and shows your lack of proper upbringing.

No wonder girls refuse to kiss you.

RSaxena,

{{It`s not just the wannabe Mullahs, it`s the shankars too. Oh but wait, the two aren`t necessarily different.}}

hmmm--must say you got a point there, prepuce-head. Maybe youre not as dumb as you sound. Ever since someone talked about the promise of 72 houris, I`ve never been the same. Aw, what the heck, to hell with my razor. Since hamid & you insist on going to hell, I might as well start being pious. Heck, I`ll even donate a houris to you (slightly used,of course), just to show you the generosity of my spirit.

Re: Scout #349

Where in any of your posts do you ever talk about educating people of the evils of excessive drinking? Your posts are (i) calling people who drink kala angrez or Oreos and worse and (ii) of how bad drinking is. The clear implication is that one drink and the person is destined to turn into an alcoholic drunk driver who kills little children and seduces (rapes?) young girls who are rendered vulnerable by alcohol.

I quote your post #329:

``Have you seen a mother cry because her 3 year old died was killed by a drunk driver? It`s horribly sad. Have you talked to a girl who lost her virginity to someone she didn`t even know due to drunkenness?

It all starts with social drinking.``

Presumably, if your point was education of people, you would then have gone on to say that the need is to ensure that our children/society/whatnot are educated about the evils, etc.etc. However you do not. You end it here. What is the implication to be derived from this? Only the one I did.

No one is objecting to your voicing your opinions--isn`t that what we all are doing here?--just to your constant abuse, personal attacks and holier-than-thou attitude. I don`t call people who willingly profess their religions idiots. I may think that they weak individuals who need a crutch but I am willing to ignore them in a spirit of live and let live as long as they ignore me. Its just that they all seem to want to reform me in spite of myself.

As far as enjoying a good merlot or cabernet goes, that is certainly Western. However we choose their drinks because they are far superior to our own. The same way that we choose their electric lights and not our own chiraghs, or their cars and not our own tongas, or their flush toilets and not our own bucket latrines.

Incidentally, the Japanese drink as much as any Gora, as do many Northern Chinese. Its a part of those cultures. Certainly the Japanese are among the few Asians that have the gene to metabolize alcohol rapidly (a Caucasian gene, incidentally), so I guess they are also Goras of sorts. Bantu Africans drink mealy beer (don`t try it, definitely an acquired taste) as a part of their culture. The only difference is that the Gora Saab has refined it to an art form: wine tasting is my idea of an evening well spent. We brownies and blackies are too poor and primitive to have raised it to the heights the white master has managed. So why reinvent the wheel or make-do with disgusting mulberry liquor when better is available? Excuse me now but trying to enlighten those that are determined to remain in the dark is thirsty work. Must have a drink to relax and unwind.

Solitude #343 you quote from Bukhari as if he is at equivalent to the Quran. Bukhari appears to have believed that too. Another commonality is the use of foul language. And I have a feeling the similarities dont end there. Incredible, you might think, but true.

Omar #334 ``Back in the 1960s when society in Pakistan, under Gen. Ayub Khan was yet carefree, and bereft of the intimidation of armed and bearded fanatics on the streets``

It was around that time, in Kohat, our teacher decided it was a nice sunny day, so the class could leave the cold classroom and she would teach in the sunny lawn of the school. As we were being taught, we heard loud scolds from nowhere: ``Khochaay Sharam karo! chadar orho, ser dhakao``. It was a fellow going by the school on a bicycle. Our teacher, a nice young lady, was wearing a sleeveless dress, was barely visible from the street through the hedge, but this eagle-eyed soldier of God spotted her nevertheless.

Moral: The culture is quite conservative among many people in Pakistan, particularly in the frontier, and things only seem worse today than was the case. This too will pass (with education, with increasing influence of the outside world)...

Re: Solitude

`` ``Allah curses those ladies who remove the hair from their faces ``- Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 408.``

Yuck, that`s nasty. As it is I have a complex about desi women who can grow facial hair faster than I can.

ATTENTION A.SHIRAZ,

PLEASE POST THE CORRECT CITATIONS FOR THE SOURCES

you used for this compilation, along with the correct page numbers, publishers, year and place of publication. I forwarded this article to some people. They just said in response that its all a lie spread to malign Islam and that Ghazali never said all this, only book unchanged is the Quran Sharif. You should have put all the citations at the end of the piece for each quote, having anticipated this reaction.

BTW, I highly reccomend the book TALIBAN by Ahmed Rashid (Journalist for The Telegraph & Far Eastern Economic Review) to everyone, well worth reading. All about the impact on Pakistan in the past 21 years, since its involvement with Afghanistan, & the Taliban. Available at www.desistore.com. The book does describe the actual implementation of the Islamic society as per Ghazali.

Solitude #343, ````Allah curses those ladies who remove the hair from their faces ``-Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 408.``

Only a fanatic obsessed with ancient gibberish would post this. Who gives a damn about what Sahih Bukhari says? Who is he anyway, and what do his words have to do with modern day society?

Shiraz, I didn`t grow up in a closed/strict environment as you did (you`ve said so yourself), so I never had to rely on gibberish to build my beliefs or hatreds. Religion was offered to me, not forced down my throat. I am lucky in that sense.

All I can feel for you and other confused Pakistani twenty somethings is pity.

sb #336,

``Please dont rant on and on about smoking and drinking being Caucasian and call people who enjoy a drink or two names!``

Ummm, last time I checked, social drinking, merlots, and Chardonnays weren`t normal Desi cultural aspects. How many times do I have to repeat that? Maybe things have changed now, but it`s due to Western influence.

by the way, name calling has become a normal occurence here. I`ve been called many names too, but I dont` complain, I just get back to them with names. Dont` get defensive plz. :)

``Like Saxena asked (i think), shall we stop using the light bulb because it is a western invention?``

I wouldn`t give Suxena so much credit. There are good Western inventions and bad ones. Comparing the light bulbs with Jack Daniels is idiotic.

Fuzair #337,

Wake up and smell the coffee mister! The last time I checked Chowk was for expressing your opinions and views. Do you want me to shut up just because some people on this board like drinking?

And where did you get this wild idea about my wanting to ban alcohol? I can only make people wary of it`s effects, nothing more. Yes, if I had a choice, I would ban it. But that`s not going to happen. Doesn`t mean I`m going to sit here and listen to merlot stories and not say anything about my beliefs.

What`s the point of even arguing if one doesn`t have personal opinions and beliefs?

Re: #337

You are wasting your time explaining those points to scout. Several others have tried before and given up; it`s no use. She inherently does not understand the concept of freedom of choice and the accompanying complexities. It takes a level of maturity she seems to lack. Nothing wrong with that, many of us are immature in different ways. But it doesn`t make her asinine comments any less annoying.

According to her thinking, if fatty foods give people heart attacks (many of whom are relying on public funds for part or all of their healthcare), then we should ban fatty foods.

Re: Fuzair

``Its hard to make a joke with people who have no sense of humor. Hamidm`s irony entirely escapes the wanna-be mullahs we have running around Chowk``

It`s not just the wannabe Mullahs, it`s the shankars too. Oh but wait, the two aren`t necessarily different.

Regarding EST Reply #: 343

Did I mention drinking strong alcohol causes hair to grow on your chest ? Is that the reason behind all the sanctomonious Islamic attitude? ``oh I have been scarred by 110 proof vodka ! now I am big foot and yogi bear in one !`` I suggest moving to Afghanistan - the Taliban are used to doing nikah with bearded men anyways- and they firmly believe in all the things you say (then they go to their poppy fields and prepare heroine for the entire world). Heroine won`t spring hair on your chest - who knows being high on heroine might even make you a heroine even in the eyes of the Taliban.

P.S. BTW I apologize for grabbing your arse that night, I was just drunk and being poetic.

And for a certain ``lady`` on this board (no offense intended to all the real ladies of the world) :

``Allah curses those ladies who remove the hair from their faces ``- Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 408.

So when are you going to show us your moustache?

``If any of your women are guilty of an indecency, ... confine them to houses until death claims them `` - 004.015 (Holy Quran)

SUKKUR, Dec 12: Three persons, including two women, were killed and two were injured in Garhi Yaseen, Daur and in Sukkur Tuesday on the pretext of ``indecency``.

Another woman had been gunned down in Dhakhri, on Monday, on a similar charge.

Khalida, 16, was killed and two persons were injured when armed persons opened fire on them in the Long Khan Gorchani village, near Daur, in the Nawabshah district, early Tuesday morning.

She was the daughter of a retired bank manager, Manzoor Ali Gorchani. Her uncle, Dr Mashooq Ali and other relatives, including Ehsan Ali, Mehboob Ali, Aijaz Ali and Imam Ali, came to their house armed with weapons. They opened fire on the girl, killing her on the spot. She was accused of having illicit relations with Momin Gorchani.

Later, they went Momin`s house but he was not present there. The enraged attackers opened fire and wounded Momin`s father, Abdul Rehman and another relative, Mukhtar Ali Gorchani. They were taken to hospital in a serious condition.

Earlier, Momin had told father, under oath, that the accusation was false. Although his father believed him, his uncles refused to accept his statement.

The girl`s father, Manzoor Ali Gorchani, got an FIR registered against his brothers, whom he held responsible for the killing. He stated in the FIR that the main reason behind the killing was a property dispute among the brothers.

Meanwhile, in Ghari Yaseen, a young boy, Ayo Shar was gunned down by two persons on the pretext of ``indeceny``.

Shar was standing at the Garhi Yaseen bus stop, unidentified armed persons appeared on the scene, opened fire on him, killing him on the spot. His friend, Abdul Rehman, had a narrow escape.

Later, two suspects -Luqman and Gulbahar Shar- were arrested.

In another incident, Mumtaz shot dead his 20-year-old wife, Shahzadi Begum, in the Sukkur district, after declaring her a `lewd`.

He then escaped. The police are conducting raids to arrest him.

Qabil Samijo strangulated his wife, Manher Khatoon, on the pretext of lewdness and indecency in the Gulab Shah Colony, Daharki, on Monday. Samijo escaped after the killing. A case has been lodged with the police.

Scout

Sometimes I am amazed by your perseverance and persistence on tormenting the mockig bird(s) till they are dead.

Re: scooty

``HEY now, how did you know I was severely myopic (no joke). I`m practically blind without my contacts.``

I knew it...btw, do you wear soda-bottle glasses when you don`t have contacts on?

``You spelled pseudo wrong,``

Thanks for being my spell-checker. Now go get me a glass of wine.

Re: shankar shrink

``OK, dick-for-brains...``

God help your patients and you.

Is self-flagellation a way for you to relieve yourself?

sb

{{Shankar, what does it take for a shrink to see the irony in hamidm`s posts?}}

Irony shmirony. I`m desparately trying to keep hamid in heaven. This guy`s screwing up all my party plans in hell. Its amazing what these guys do to gatecrash a party--just because they found out the drinks are for free.

Re: sb #336

Its hard to make a joke with people who have no sense of humor. Hamidm`s irony entirely escapes the wanna-be mullahs we have running around Chowk. After all, when you are doing God`s work, you don`t have time for frivolities. If there is a God, I`ll rely on his sense of mercy to save me. If he doesn`t, then he wasn`t much of a god to begin with, was he? (Or she, or it; don`t want to be genderist here).

Re: Scout #329

Not quite burst it. You are arguing that your personal experience has led you to become one with Carrie Nation. Not as close as a family member but pretty close.

In essence you are making the slippery slope argument in reverse. Usually its made as a case against govt intervention. If we ban hate speech, whats next? Banning politically unpopular speech? Banning my rival from speaking at all? Etc. Etc.

You advocate banning all alcohol consumption everywhere because someone, somewhere might drink too much and do something stupid/dangerous/deadly? You don`t see a problem with your logic?

Presumably, you would also want to ban tobacco. How about fatty foods? Fast cars? Knitting needles (sharp points you know)? Scissors? Knives? Guns? The list is endless.

Wait, or do you want to ban those items whose use has a social impact? Drunk drivers kill others, not just themselves. Second-hand tobacco smoke kills non-smokers. Grossly obese people kill only themselves, not others. So, to use Mill`s typology in a different sense, there are self-hurting and other-hurting actions. Are self-hurting actions (eating myself to death) OK but potentially other-hurting ones (drinking myself to death--I might drive while drunk) are not?

I have news for you. Virtually all actions are other-hurting in some way, shape or form. For example, if I pay taxes and these taxes are used to fund some sort of a social-welfare state, I am being hurt every time the state looks after some moron who was too stupid not to look after him/herself. If the state mandates warning labels on hairdryers--do not use while showering!!!!!--I have to pay for the cost of the label and all the lawsuits filed by idiots against the company and the cost of idiot-proofing the device. The classic is of course the infamous McDonalds` coffee suit. The coffee was TOO hot! I hurt myself because I am an idiot! Now you must pay!

So in a perfect Scoutian world, who gets to make the rules, other than you of course? Where do YOU personally draw the line? Just how big should the nanny state be? It seems to be a common feature in Common Law systems that every one has a positive duty to help the stupid. I say its time to thin the herd. Every one is ignorant about some thing at some time but the people who are permanently ignorant about everything are the ones that really need to be thinned out!

Personally, I am of the opinion that the ideal state of affairs would be something like the old French Foreign Legion which, reportedly, had no restrictions on drinking while on duty but the penalty for being drunk or incapacitated while on duty was being staked out in the desert. Similarly, the penalties for drunk driving were ludicrously low for years because we look after the stupid too much, no matter what they do. A month in jail for a first offense, treat drunk driving deaths as felony murder, and people will soon change their habits. The solution is not to ban alcohol but to punish stupid behavior

hmm..salam all

very interesting yet at times disturbing discussion :)

as for omarphoenix, urstruly, Farungi_kush..

let me just say

Allah karey Zor - e - bayan aur ziyada``

btw

i need to ask u ppl this..ijtihad can only be used where we do not find order or guindence from Allah (s w t ) and his prophet. thats how i understand..

so i dont think u can ijithad on circumcision and start cutting penises of rapist, coz there punishment is also there.

regards

PS: i d love to read more of Omar phoneix.

he is good.

Scout, coming from Pakistan, you should know, perhaps more than some urban Indians, about the caste system among the Indoos. Each profession had a caste associated with it. In my state, there is a caste whose profession it is to make and sell liquor. I believe this caste has been alive and kicking for atleast a few centuries now. Have a friend, a woman, who is not frightfully western but who would drink along with her parents in India. In the coastal areas of Andhra, women (of lower classes, since that seems to be important too) relish smoking strong, home-grown tobacco to this day.

Please dont rant on and on about smoking and drinking being Caucasian and call people who enjoy a drink or two names! And what are we doing in the west, calling the desis oreos? Btw, there is difference between drinking and drunk-driving.

Like Saxena asked (i think), shall we stop using the light bulb because it is a western invention?

Shankar, what does it take for a shrink to see the irony in hamidm`s posts?

Rsuxena #328,

``So that, little, myopic scout is what the issue is. Further, if you are indeed the psuedo-intellectual New-Age Muslima you pose as, what leads you to label a drinker as gora? What does it have to do with being gora and kaala?``

HEY now, how did you know I was severely myopic (no joke). I`m practically blind without my contacts.

You spelled pseudo wrong, and I`m not posing as anything at all. I just say what I feel. Drinking is predominantly a gora culture phenomenon, thus labeling the goras as drinkers.

There are exceptions to the rule though.

``Where were you educated (if at all), by the way?``

Everywhere, through experiences more than books.

Also Published DAWN: Letters to the Editor

Nov 17-2000

Pakistan: past and present

THE enemies of human freedom, ideological cousins and mentors to the Taliban, are calling today in Pakistan for a ban on Basant, and dance and cultural shows. In short, they would like nothing better than to crush the human spirit, lock it up, and throw away the key.

No one forces them to frequent cultural events or even to simply enjoy themselves, but yet they seek to impose upon others, their dreary and extreme views of how life ought to be lived, all the time. It is clear they are well armed, and now prepared to use whatever force is necessary to subjugate society. Their priorities for society are to force all men to grow breads, ban shorts in public parks, smash T.V. sets, satellite dishes, and confine women to the home, from whence they would not be permitted to leave unaccompanied by a close male relative.

Many people have left the country because of the spread of their virulent intolerance. Individualism they find utterly incomprehensible. Most Pakistanis are simply fed up of them and their intimidation of society.

According to a recently published interview, ``Munno Bhai said we had regressed. For many years after independence, it was common for girls to bike to their colleges. Today, in Lahore, it was not easy for a woman even to be seen driving a car. She was subjected to much jeering and humiliation.

``He told the story of a family which had gone to Gilgit by road and when it was driving through Kohistan, some young men in beards had screamed obscenities at the young women in the group. When asked why they were doing that, they had replied that the local Mullah had told them that if they saw unveiled women they should scream filth at them so that they learnt never to venture out of their homes again. Even in villages, where the women had always worked unveiled in the fields, it was becoming increasingly difficult for them to do so.``

Back in the 1960s when society in Pakistan, under Gen. Ayub Khan was yet carefree, and bereft of the intimidation of armed and bearded fanatics on the streets, and the bombings their meetings attract from RAW, there used to be such fun events as Horse and Cattle shows. Even the current generals must remember them fondly, for they all belong to that generation and bygone era.

No one can possibly successfully argue that Pakistani society has improved over the past two or three decades as a result of religious radicalization. If anything, society has clearly `regressed`. No one talks about the importance of the freedom value in society, it is only an abstract thing, that Pakistan demands for Kashmiris in IOK, but increasingly circumscribes at home.

OMAR MIRZA

Dar ul harb, New York

Dawn Letters to the Editor: December 9th 2000

Reordering the priorities

PAKISTAN has serious problems of all kinds - political and economic, to name but two categories. Jobless people commit suicide in increasing numbers, society has grown more and more violent, and the main concerns of some people while all this goes on, are whether the Governor of Punjab committed such an un-Islamic act, by shaking a foreign lady`s hand while her husband looked on, as to deserve censure. This, and the mentality behind the mean spirited ban on shorts in public parks shows only too clearly the real imprint of the 11 year dictatorship of Ziaul Haq on the country.

It is now only a matter of time before someone or the other has a light bulb go off in their head that the power of the state should be used to prevent women from leaving the home, driving cars, or for their manner of dress become the subject of national legislation, and so on. Some reeds of religious justification could undoubtedly be found for all this too if one looked for them with a particular regressive bent of mind.

Let me say this once and for all, on behalf of many who read this paper, that contemptible despotism that is opposed to the very notion of human liberty that Mulla Omar runs up there in the North, provides no model for Pakistan. Freedom of individual conscience, also means freedom from the oppressive religious views of others. I for one, not only plan to continue shaking hands with women who defiantly refuse to don burqas or hijab for that matter, and go jogging in shorts in public parks, I urge all others to do so as well, while they still can. Never mind if it gives anyone offence. I am offended they should presume to encroach on my liberty, or that of the remaining few free thinkers left in society, clearly a nearly extinct species on the endangered list.

Religious totalitarianism is clearly on the rise in Pakistan.

OMAR MIRZA

New York, USA

Disrespectful Ghazzali Bashing. Ghazzali`s Ihya has its own place in islamic thought. And also weak hadith have been profusedly quoted!!! This article is a NO-GO!

aamir

scout,

When God made RSaxena & hamidm, He put their brains in their prepuce instead of their heads. That explains why they think & act like dicks.

Alas hamidm was born on your side of the border. The Islamic eqvivalent of the bris took care of his intellectual prowess.

As far as Saxena goes, what can I tell you? If I insult the bum, he takes it as a compliment! Just watch how this post will give him a hard on:)

OK, dick-for-brains Saxena, start your show. Afterall, you wont care how much it will gross us out. Maybe ylh will get turned on..

Fuzair #327,

Sorry to burst your psychoanalytical bubble, but NO, I don`t have family members who are alcoholics. My aversion is due to seeing friends losing themselves to alcohol, seeing disease, etc.

Have you seen a mother cry because her 3 year old died was killed by a drunk driver? It`s horribly sad. Have you talked to a girl who lost her virginity to someone she didn`t even know due to drunkenness?

It all starts with social drinking.

Re: scooty

``Not drinking alcohol is not enjoying American freedom? Who`s ranting against American freedom?``

No, but you have argued in the past against giving people the right to choose whether or not they want to drink. Whether or not you drink is irrelevant to the issue.

You have often argued - with Lubna amongst others - against the of people being allowed to choose for themselves what is morally right or wrong (outside of theft, murder, and rape).

So that, little, myopic scout is what the issue is. Further, if you are indeed the psuedo-intellectual New-Age Muslima you pose as, what leads you to label a drinker as gora? What does it have to do with being gora and kaala?

Where were you educated (if at all), by the way?

Re: Scout`s posts on alcohol

I am just curious, none of my business, but this strong an aversion to alcohol AND not based on religious convictions usually means that there is either a family history of alcohol abuse or something similar. A friend of mine (an American) in college was a complete teetotaller and in his case it was because both his parents were alcoholics and his brother as well. He had developed an almost pathological (although understandable) aversion to alcohol. He told me once that he was afraid that if he drank, he too would become an alcoholic.

As I said, its none of my business but I was curious if you had a family history of alcoholism?

Regards.

Musthtaq Farooqi (re. 304)

Thanks for the long post on male/female spiritual characteristcs et al.

Attractive and compelling as I found the ideas (not different from those in far eastern mythology, eh?), extrapolating them from the teachings in Islam seemed, at best, like squeezing water from a rock.

Just goes to show what a good neeyat AND a good mind can do in combination, eh?

regards,

PM

PS. IF not too troublesome, could u email me about your work in IT schools and agriculture development in Pak too. (postmatser@yahoo.com). Please note the spelling.

Rsaxena #322, ``You are soooo right about this here young scout....I too can`t get over the irony in her living and enjoying American freedom while continuing to rant against it (and failing to fully understand it).``

Not drinking alcohol is not enjoying American freedom? Who`s ranting against American freedom?

Say a word against alcohol, and you become a thick skulled idiot. I think you need treatment from Dr. Shankar. I suggest electroconvulsive therapy.

Enjoying American freedom is more than drinking alcohol, a fact your kind (kala angrez FOB) wouldn`t know until you get your faces out of your stinking beer mugs.

Ref Lubna #: 47

You said {Yes, I do believe Ijtihad is still possible - in fact, it is reviving - and that there is a serious need for REFORMS in Islam.}

In the state of Kerala in India, which has over 90% literacy rate and where Muslims, Hindus and Christians have lived in relative harmony since the days of the Moplah Riots, a mullah decided on Ijtihad. He went so far as to say that other religions may also be correct. This gentle man was picked up in the middle of the night, tortured, killed, and his body buried in a shallow grave. Two days later, when the police discovered the body, the perpetrators had caught a flight to the Middle East and disappeared. This happened 7 years back. Yes, Ijtihad is possible, but it is mostly considered to be heresy and blasphemy. If an area with 90% literacy couldn`t handle the questioning of the tenets of Islam, what chance do other scholars in other areas have?

You said {Basically, it`s for the benefit of women that these laws exist. Later in the program someone on the phone made a very interesting suggestion to him: how about re-evaluating their ``values``. Instead of spending so much time, effort and money on laws that make Saudi a safe place for women, why not remove the threat - why not spend more time, effort and money on ``educating`` the youth - changing their attitudes towards women, teaching them to respect the other gender. Then maybe they won`t feel the need for such laws. The scholar didn`t have anything to say in response to that. He was clearly very disturbed by the suggestion.}

Why educate men? Why not go along with the typical Islamic punishment of amputation of the offending member? If your hand commits a theft, Islam demands that it be cut off. Extending the logic, we can clearly see what organ needs to be cut off for rapists. Since the mullah claims that women are likely to be attacked if they go out alone, why doesn`t he prescribe a slight repositioning of the knife during the circumcision ceremony? That ought to take care of the threats to women`s honor and dignity. But that would be Ijtihad, no?

Re: shankar shrink

You go sip your lattes and hug your trees elsewhere; leave hamidm alone!

Re: hamidm

``scout ....... now here is a woman who has bought the party line hook, line and sinker ....no matter how many surahs and hadiths you throw at her, she has convinced herself that it is better to be the veil-wearing twelve year old third wife of a pious tetotaler, five-a-dayer, ankle-bared, tasbeeh and watwani-fiddling momin......``

Hehehehehehehe, you are one hilarious mofo! You are soooo right about this here young scout....I too can`t get over the irony in her living and enjoying American freedom while continuing to rant against it (and failing to fully understand it).

``Have some morals, scout`s Muslim morals.``

How dare you define your own morals.

Life is black and white.

hamidm #310, ``the apostle mushtaq farooqi and how he contributed to the religious delinquency of young scout ......``

Who the hell is Mushtaq Farooqi? And how does speaking against alcohol make me a religious deliquent?

When did I even mention religion in our ``guftugoo?``

Why are you so obsessed with religion that you have to include religious satire into every post of yours, whether it is relevant to the discussion at hand or not?

``scout ....... now here is a woman who has bought the party line hook, line and sinker ....no matter how many surahs and hadiths you throw at her, she has convinced herself that it is better to be the veil-wearing twelve year old third wife of a pious tetotaler, five-a-dayer, ankle-bared, tasbeeh and watwani-fiddling momin......``

KYA BAKWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS HAI YEH? Do you think while you write or does your brain disconnect from your fingers? I`m beginning to believe the latter.

surahs hadiths? Your mind is infested with a religious disease. Perhaps if you didn`t drink alcohol you`d be a sharper person, who can argue without using the shoulder of meaningless religious parody.

hamidm,

I`m very worried about your conduct on this forum. You keep on trashing pious muslims. Keep it up & youre definitely going to condemned to hell in eternal damnation...

Thats going to be a huge problem for us hindus. Since we`re going to hell for being heathen idol worshippers, were planning to have a party for eternity. So what if its hot in hell, we`re used to the heat. OK, so the beer will be warm & the wine may not be chilled. But the chinks have promised us all the free chinese food we can eat.

The last thing in hell we need is a gatechrasher like you. Please dont be a party pooper. You gotta admit you`ll feel very out of place among us heeng smelling banyas.



So be a good boy & have some more respect for the devouts;--if not for our sake, at least for yours..

Omarphoenix # 297

Great post. I regret that I missed it the first time. I like the confidence that you have in yourself. Being a parrot is lot better than being an Oreo cookie. I hope you have Oreos in UK, right? I mean the real ones that come in a box and they smell and taste real good?

Besides all of that I suggest you to use your discretion on engaging your neurons on more important stuff.

Oops, sorry. I meant Scout`s ``Headache and Hearburn`` response page, not Feroz`s.

Re: OmarPhoenix #297

I don`t usually bother answering people for whose intelligence I have no respect, considering it to be a waste of time and effort. For this reason there is no point in trying to enter into a debate on the merit (or the lack thereof) of interest (your other flamer to me) or wine (your current one). There is a huge difference between trying to talk to some one usually capable of intelligent discourse (e.g., scout--apologies for sounding patronizing) and a parrot that just mouths whatever has been taught it. In fact, we used to have a mian mitthu when I was about 12 that had a greater vocabulary and reasoning ability than yours: he figured out how to remove the wire holding his cage shut. Your cage is still wired tight. Hmmm, must apologize now to parrots.

If your Ex-catholic friend is an idiot, that makes me one as well? Superb logic they are teaching you in that fine institution of higher parrotting you attend. If you will read my posts, both here and at Feroz`s last article site, you will notice that I keep trying to draw a distinction between drinking and alcoholism. Given your fine reasoning skills, you see no difference. I assume that you also see no difference between eating three good meals a day and being 200 pounds overweight? Eating must also be condemned because some people overindulge in it? When do we start the jihad to ban all food?

Regards.

My previous post was in reference to hamidm #310, and please replace the word messenger with Mushtaq. My apologies to both messenger and Mushtaq in the first instance, and to chowk readers in the next for this error.

hamidm I think messenger is expecting a careful study of his ying/yang discourse, and respectful discussion, not your summary consignment of it to the fires of mansoora. As retribution, I hope you will translate his post into Arabic, memorize it, and repeat it for extra credit after each prayer.

Dear Molko,

Ooooh, Touchy touchy are we? Err what`s that thing call that you guys have been abusing...freedom of speech is it? Why are you guys getting all `rondhu`. I felt like being righteous and thought I`ll just read the posts. But then I thought, I might as well play on your level (not you personally). Only Joking, you won`t be hearing much from me since I only ever visit this place every so often.

Take care.

Omar Phoenix