Ghazali On Women In Islam

dear messenger,

Although I am no fan of judging actions/practices on one age on standards of another --later, generally more evolved-- era, I think you are doing a service to those who fly the flags of Perfection and Timlessness.

In fact, i`m at a loss for words to commend you, so I`ll just use another`s (withOUT permission, of course)

``Sir you are merciless; you hit `em where it hurts the most. Well keep at it, I am enjoying every bit of it.``

regards,

PM

Bina (re. #97)

Truly uplifiting!

Now, could you or anyone else possibly provide a hadithic reference for the eloquent words of the Prophet (pbuh) that Rumi has quoted?

regards,

PM

Re: scout

Refer:

Oops, in #333 I wrote: ``...get some chilly-spiked tandoori chicken...`` ... that wouldn`t taste too good. Try chilli-spiked instead.

I go back and fix my typos...unlike others I know here who will not even go back and acknowledge their own full statements, let alone typos. ``Punjabi is far better than Urdu...``

``It was the Union Home Minister, Mr. L.K. Advani`s day out today in the holy city of Ajmer. After a gap of 30 years, he visited the world-famous `dargah` here to offer chaddar at the mazaar (mausoleum) of the Sufi saint, Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti. Earlier, he offered prayers at the Brahma temple at Pushkar. ``

Oh my, I can only imagine what Pakis what do to Uncle Moose - a public stoning probably - if he showed up at a temple or church and did this..oh but I doubt there`s temple or church anywhere near him so it`s unlikely anyway.

Re: Stupid #109

``Just imagine ``daasis` and ``kanya`` drinking your ``bathing water`` as a fertility medicine.``

Not as good as four cousins-turned-wives drinking bathing water though. (Don`t go over the 4 wife limit though.) And not as great as being able to scream ``talak talak talak`` from atop the mosque to get rid of one or more of them if the sex gets boring.

messenger #104 You seem to have an IQ that almost reaches double digits. What with your cheap shots and dumbass remarks.

PM,

If i knew you were going to write 112, i wouldn`t have wasted my time writing my response to ninah :)

btw, why is sahih bukhuri called sahih bukhari? you know what sahih means right? it means ``correct``.... does that mean we had an ``incorrect`` bukhari? did you know that there were lots of hadiths that were discarded as incorrect? i know that majority of sunnis belive in sahih bukhari and sahih muslim blindly... but that does not mean every hadith in bukhari or muslim is what mohammad actually said...
to form an objective and fair understanding of mohammad`s life and his thoughts you must study him independently.... without getting stuck in bukhari or muslim... yes, it is difficult, but not impossible to do that

stuff provided in some of the ``muslim`` books is absolutely disgusting... i do not think that a person of mohammad`s intelligence would have said or done some of the things that are ascribed to him in bukhari and muslim...

overall, I do concur with your views...

Fairdinkum 120

The word `Sahih` as in Sahih Bokhari means `a collection of narratives`.

Rsaxena 119

Doesnt it feel better now i.e. by being yourself again? You almost pulled a muscle in your brain while grappling with ``Philosophy`` of ``Gajaali`` and people were almost taking you as a scholar at the beginning of this thread.

`d love to hear you pronouncing ``Philosophy``-I wonder you pronounce it Filosofy or Ph-il-oso-phi; ``ph`` pronounced as Ph in ``phal`` meaning fruit.(for u it is phrut, don`t even bother):))

Begin Quote:

“Modern”, moderate, non practicing Muslims when confronted with the backwardness of Islam come up with the typical excuse : It is not Islam’s fault it is the fault of its victims (and followers).

The thought is that it is not Islam that is to blame for the degrading of women. Of course to talk of ``the essence of Islam`` is simply to perpetuate the malignant influence of religious authority and to perpetuate a myth [elaboration will be provided]. These same Muslim thinkers, when faced by the textual evidence of the inherent misogyny of Islam, are confused and anguished. Refusing to look reality in the face, they feel obliged to interpret these sacred texts, to apologize, to minimize their manifest hostility to women in short, to exonerate Islam. Others try to argue that these traditions were perpetuated by dubious Muslims whose motives were suspect.

Yet to do battle with the orthodox, the fanatics, and the mullahs in the interpretation of these texts is to do battle on their (the fanatics) terms, on their ground. Every text that you produce they will adduce a dozen others contradicting yours. The reformists cannot win on these terms whatever mental gymnastics the reformists perform, they cannot escape the fact that Islam is deeply antifeminist. Islam is the fundamental cause of the repression of Muslim women and remains the major obstacle to the evolution of their position.

Islam has always considered women as creatures inferior in every way: physically, intellectually, and morally. This negative vision is divinely sanctioned in the Koran, corroborated by the hadiths and perpetuated by the commentaries of the theologians, the custodians of Muslim dogma and ignorance.

Far better for these apologists abandon the religious argument, to reject these sacred texts, and have recourse to reason alone. They should turn instead to human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (adopted on December 10, 1948, by the General Assembly of the United Nations in Paris and ratified by most Muslim countries) at no point has recourse to a religious argument. These rights are based on natural rights, which any adult human being Capable of choice has. They are rights that human beings have simply because they are human beings. Human reason or rationality is the ultimate arbiter of rights human rights, the rights of women.

Sigalph,

That depends on what your interpretation of classical Islam is. I believe that the Islamic system is supposed to operate on two levels... divine level and causative level as all ``covenants`` work.

The Laws, rules and regulations you refer to as classical Islam are merely causative, according to the interpretation of the divine in that time, place and culture. Divine Principle remains the same, application can be different. That is exactly why Islam leaves the door of Ijtehad and Ijmah open.

To call causative laws permanent and classical is Dogmatization which is a curse. I suggest everyone read Cowasjee`s latest article ``The Frog Croaks`` on Dawn.

I can only agree with Miss Sarwari when she says Islam is infact a CHALLANGE to religion.

Pakistan Zindabad

As I have said before, the quotes from the article by the author were out of context and the fact now that they are taken literally from Ibn Warraq`s polimical work which I have read, is not surprising. Such distortions of the truth about Islam`s position for women are not worthy of response. Would you trust a book written by Nazis for information about Judaism?! Ibn Warraq`s book is pathetic and no one can take it seriously as a source.

The true position of Islam is given by the quotes by Bina from Hazrat Mawlana Rumi and from the quote from Ibn Hazm. Yes, Imam Ghazzali`s real views are those of orthodox Islam and we agree with them 100% but these ``quotes`` are NOT his real views. We are not apologists and will not change our views just to impress or be friendly with the likes of mr. shiraz. Those who are interested in his [Imam Ghazzali`s] real views on issues should read the excellent and academic translations of his ihya` --his magnus opus--published by ITS (Islamic Texts Society).

As for those who want to know why Sunnis love and revere Hazrat Shaykh al Mashaykh Imam al Ghazzali rahmatullah alayhi, the following article by Dr. GF Haddad-- a revert to Islam-- should suffice for those who are looking to actually learn.

http://sunnah.org/history/Scholars/imam_alghazali.htm

For those who just want to poke fun at and slander Islam and it`s Imams we say, ``for you your religion, for me mine.``

BTW, all those like mr. farangi-kush and others who do not like me--do you think it matters to me?

As long as Allah and His Habib sal allahu alayhi wa sallam are pleased with me--what else is important?

And a bit of advice for all the apologists out there who are ashamed before their master the White Man [and I mean it as a prototype not in a racist way] of being Muslim---you would actually have more respect if you respected your deen and were not ashamed of it [or of its greatest practitioners] from yuor master...

wajood-e-zann se hai kainaat mein rang...

``Three things of your world Allah has made dear to me: WOMEN, perfume and prayer``--meaning of a hadith sharif.

`` The best of you is he who is best to his women folk``-hadith meaning

``A son is one blessing, a daughter two``--ditto.

Hi All!

I`d like to introduce myself: 17, male, born (and bred) in the US of A, Indian (lapsed) Muslim father, Agnostic Caucasian mother. Brought up in a neutral religious setting, I have for a few years now been searching for my religious roots.

A few weeks ago, a friend told me of chowk and I`ve been hooked ever since, keenly following the threads on Headache and Heartburn and now this. I`ve got to say that the many posts by Solitude, Patrick and others have shaken off the romantic notions of Islam as a peace-loving, tolerant religion, which is something I developed to counter the negative media image that I believed the Western media presents us.

I`m sure this is only a one-sided view, and that for every negative presented by Solitude and company, there are many positives to be found in the religion. Still, the few quotes of Prophet Mohammed, if authentic are quite shocking.

I`m not about to pass judgement on Religion or Islam, but I`d like to say that, from a relatively neutral standpoint, Solitude, Fuzair and Patrick seem to have a stronger case than do their cyber-opponents. It as if the others just don`t see or don`t want to see the sense of their arguments. The attempt to rationalize some archaic laws is quite interesting.. If this is the way folks are brought up to think and examine issues on the subcontinent, it is esy to see why progress has been stunted. (sorry if that sounds condescending but c`mon, other countries started off after you guys with few resources and are now world leaders in many fields)

But to get back to the original purpose of my post, I`d like to say I`d be a lot more convinced if there were more seriously thought out rejoinders to Solitude than the name-calling. And what about Patrick? I think the guy asked some of the most pivotal question some time back on the issues of slavery and ijtahad but no one has responded. Pat, what IS your motivation anyway? Now don`t get me wrong, buddy, I think you`re probably the one making more sense than all the rest here put together, but isn`t it obvious to you you`re sorta being ignored? I think your question to someone, suggesting that you karants (?) need some attention too, tells me that you`re aware of this step-brotherly treatment. By the way, are you referring to Christians when you say `karants`? What`s it mean? Patrick, dude, my sincere advice to you is to dump that crazy place and move to the US or Canada. You`d be lot happier.

Chowk.com`s own decription of itself is ``a place where all are welcome to think read an write``. I can see a lot of writing (and obviously reading too). Folks, let`s have some more thinking now, shall we?

In the immortal words of a certain Mr. King (no, not MLK, but one who earned fame more recently) ``Can`t we all just get along?``

Sincerely,

Adam Hosien

Urstruly #109, and Rsaxena #119,

You guys are killing me. (still laughing)

I live for these moments.

Subject: For All Muslims and brothers who`s still lost!!!

PLEASE MUSLIMS:

SEND THIS TO OTHER MUSLIMS!

ASSALAMU-ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULLAHI WA BARAKATAHU.

Dear Muslims:

This is a letter from Saudi Arabia. It is addressed to all Muslims. It is the words of Sheikh Ahmed, the watchman of the Prophet Muhammed`s Mosque (PBUH). On Friday night after reciting the Holy Quran, he slept and dreamed and saw the Holy Prophet(PBUH). The Prophet said to him, ``Sheikh Ahmed, this Friday about six thousand (6,000) people died, but none went to heaven; The women do not follow what their husbands tell them anymore. The believers who have money do not help the poor people. People do not perform their pilgrimage as was prescribed. The Muslims do not say their prayers regularly, let alone how it is supposed to be.`` Sheikh Ahmed tells the Muslims that this letter comes for you. They are to produce more copies of this letter and give them to other Muslims, so that

it can spread and get to other Muslims in this world. Anyone who produces copies of this and spreads out to other Muslims, will see the REWARD indeed. Such a person will be counted as those suitable for Paradise, INSHALLAH. The Muslim who receives this letter and refuses to disperse it among Other Muslims will not see benediction. I, Sheikh Ahmed, if what I said Is a lie, May Allah not send His Divine Benediction to me. Dear Muslims, you must follow the religion the way the Prophet honoured it, like the divine revelation it is. Ask for forgiveness. Produce twenty (20) copies of this letter, and distribute it to all Muslims. Anyone who does this, so that all Muslims get a copy, will INSHA ALLAH see the opening of the Prophet`s desires and success will follow. He will see the things he had never seen before.

This is not a letter to be kept. It must be dispersed in large quantities. A man called Klavan got this letter, and gave it to his secretary, to produce twenty (20) copies and disperse them. After some days, he saw many doors of opportunities opening up for him. Another, named Abdul-Salam, got it and forgot it in the drawer of His office, and, after a certain time, he lost his job. He later remembered the letter, and went and produced twenty (20) copies, which were distributed, and within five (5) days, he got employed and is in a higher position than what he had before.

Another man, called Balemanthan, received it, and he thought it Was something useless, and treated it without respect or courtesy. He tore the letter and within nine (9) days he died. I am appealing to anyone who comes across this letter to kindly circulate it in a large volume.

Thank You. ASSALAMU-ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULLAHI WA

BARAKATAHU.

1042--Another(unrequited)Love story

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Excerpt from the autobiograpghy of Ibn Hazm.Titled ``The Collar of the Dove``.

``I wish to tell you the following story about myself:In my youth love drew me into a friendly relationship with a slave girl who had grown up in our house was at the time sixteen years old.The beauty of her coutenance,her intelligence,her chastity,her purity,modesty,and her pleasant nature was beyond compare.She would not consent to flirtation,refusing to sully her honor.Her friendliness was exceptional,yet she was always most careful to keep her face hidden by the veil.Faultless and irreproachable,she was always on her guard,and her face always bore serious expression.She was charming whenever she appeared,yet possessed a natural reserve,and was delightful in her movements,making a dignified impression.As she sat,she was full of composure,and herr aloofness was enchanting.No one would have dared hope to win her,nor to covet her,and no one could hope to expect a favourable hearing from her.Thus her appearance drew all hearts to her,while her conduct rejected anyone who sought to approach her.her shyness and reserve in dispensing favors gave her an allure,which no amount of generosity or openness could produce in others.She was of serious disposition,and had no desire for light entertainment,although she played the lute extremely well.

``This girl had won my heart,and I fell passionately and helplessly in love with her.For some two years,I tried with all my energies to gain a hearing from her,and for once to pry from her lips words other than those pass between people in public coversation.HOWEVER,I had no success whtsoever.

``Now I remember the day a social gathering was held in our home........

.......I remember the joy I experienced at the proximity of the girl,and with a hope of lingering a while at her side,I advanced towards the window where she was standing.But sooner did she become of my presence,than she left this window and at a sedate pace moved to anther one.When I then decided to join her at the window where she now stood,again she turned away to another one.Moreover she was aware of my love for her.(You must know that women are most perceptive in detecting the way a person feels about them)......

.......The elder women & the elegant ladies of our circle requested the girl`s mistress to permit her to sing us something.The girl took up her lute and began to tune it with such entrancing shyness and embarrassment as I had never seen before.``

``Upon my life!It was as if the plectron was plucking at my heart,and not the strings.I have never forgotten that day and I shall not forget it until the day I depart this life.I never found another opportunity for seeing and listening to her``

[Political upheaval brings about a drastic change.His father the Vizier to the Caliph moves to another palace and several years pass]

...at someones funeral:``I caught sight of the girl in the circle of of wailing and keening women.Standing there she reawakened in me a long-buried passion,which had since become tranquil,and reminded me of earlier days,of a former love,a time that was over,a vanished epoch,of months long past,of things now ancient,an age that was gone,episodes finished,and days gone by,and of trails effaced``

....``She disappeared from my life for more than six years.When I saw her in Cordoba.I would have hardly recognised her ,had not someone told me who she was.Her attractiveness for the most part been transformed.Her beauty had vanished.the erstwhile comeliness had gone.Faded was the former luster,that had shone like a polished sword and an Indian mirror,and withered was thr bloom that had once drawn and riveted every eye,until,dazzled,the beholder turned away.She had retained only a fraction of her charms,just enough to conjure up a picture of her former whole.She had obviously taken little care of herself,and had suffered from the want of sheltering hand and protection she had been given when we were her masters.She could no longer have been concerned with her honor,when she lowered herself to the inevitable,from which she had always been sheltered and preserved in former times.

``For women are just like sweet-herbs,which lose their perfume,if they are not cared for.They are a stucture that collapses if neglected.....

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Points to Ponder:

1.It is Ghazalis time.

2.She is a slave girl.

3.He is the son of the Vizier to the Caliph of the mightiest empire then.

4.Ibn Hazm author of over 4oo books,including the history of religions & religious sects.

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``Qumree ka tawque hulqua-e beyroon-e darr hai aaj``

.....................Ghalib.

tr:The Collar of the Dove is the chain around my main door these days.

(On the massacre of Delhi & house-prisoning everyone for more than three months by the Britty babboons)

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WASSALAAM