Ghazali On Women In Islam

interesting turn of events......

by the way, what`s wrong with writing under a pseudonym or two?

urstruly:#158

True to your form.Thanks urstruly.

temporal:

I second urstruly`s post adressed to you.

Thanks.

__________________________________________________

Wassalaam

I think the author has an issue with replies like the one offered by Asif Naqshbandi. However, instead of arguing it out with people who hold Asif`s views, he is assuming that all, ``devout`` Muslims hold those views, and consider Ghazali the, ``Perfect Man`` (as Asif seems to). This is an incorrect assumption, which should be obvious from the replies on this thread. Only one, ``devout`` Muslim seems to consider Ghazali`s views accurate. Even he has stated, ``has strung together a series of sayings--apparently from Hazrat Imam Al Ghazzali (may Allah sanctify his mighty secret!) about women which are totally out of context and the purpose is to give the image that Islam is a totally mysoginistic religion. This is an old trick of the enemies of Islam.`` Perhaps implying that even he does not consider the views expressed in this article to be the manner in which women should be treated.

The author has then suggested in replies that Islam requires Ijtehad. This is definitely true in my opinion. However it is not the view the author had initially presented in the article. In the article he had stated that all, ``The devout Muslims want divisions along religious lines.`` The actual fact, proven by replies to this article, is that almost all devout Muslims actually support Ijtehad. Hopefully, the author has realized this, and that is the reason behind his appeal for Ijtehad, rather than the original appeal of considering all devout Muslims to be followers of Ghazali`s views on women.

My suggestion would be for the author to argue this case with Asif Naqshbandi, and that two only in the context of the views of Ghazali (which are in no way accepted by an overwhelming majority of Muslims as correct). Both of you seem to be on opposite extremes regarding Mr. Ghazali. Everyone else is somewhere in between, which is probably somewhere the correct interpretation of Islam lies, in my opinion. In another words, original views of the author`s are as extreme as the views expressed in reply #73 (in fact the author`s views are significantly more extreme); abeit at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I am great supporter of Ijtehad, however I think it is unethical to attempt to portray a completely incorrect picture of any religion by quoting one person, and assuming (without any consensus) him/her to be the true representative of the religion. This either indicates a lack of knowledge on the subject, or an effort to simply insult the followers of the religion. My own feeling, after reading your replies, is that you belong to the former category. I would suggest to prove the correctness/incorrectness of the views you have expressed, you find out how many of the repliers to Chowk consider themselves Muslims, and yet still feel Ghazali`s views on women to be inaccurate. That should give an objective idea.

People who are interested in Ijtehad on Islam need to base their arguments on much stronger footing than what is presented in this article. This article is cannon fodder for people who are not interested in Ijtehad. They can use it to point out the one-sided extremist views of the people who are at the other extreme. In fact, this article is so biased that nearly every replier on Chowk, who actually feels Ijtehad is desperately required (like myself), is opposing it. If your intention is to point out that Islam requires Ijtehad, then that should be admired. However, the request for Ijtehad should not be made by maligning the religion itself. On the whole, I think this article does more disservice to the supporters of Ijtehad, than anything else. It this feeds right into the arguments those extremists Muslims have been presenting about reform-minded Muslims, all along.

The way to counter extremism is not to jump to the other extreme. Don`t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Dear Shiraz and all the evil quadruplets,

I would like to apologise now for the long post, but why the heck are you geezers and gals on this forum hurling abuse (though you may call it discussing) at Islam with `normal` people like Scout, Urstruly, fairdinkum Farangi-Kush, moi etc when we are not the scholars of Islam. I will admit, I don`t know everything about Islam because I`m a typically confused 20th century Muslim youth living in the West. Why because one person says one thing, the other says the other¡Kso I`ve decided to learn many things of Islam on my own. First thing after Pharmacy, I plan to learn Quranic Arabic. Then I`ll (inshallah) go for something more disciplined like a degree etc. I would like to answer you back and probably have all the answers too but I can`t. Why because I don`t claim to know all the answers and until I feel I don`t learn sufficiently about Islam, I won`t say much. Give me about 4 years to reply back and I`ll come back with a vengeanceƒº.

Now here`s the thrust of my viewpoint. What are you getting at? What is your aim? Why are you discussing these viewpoints with us? Go to Islamic Scholars. Though there aren`t many of them, they are one fine breed of humans and they WILL answer all your questions. It is true that many new `prophets` (ha ha what a laugh) start by talking to the weak. If that`s your aim, then what do you have to offer?

Should I speak to a 28 year old Catholic farmer and ask why an unbaptized child will go to hell? Should I ask a 23 year old Christian Civil worker why they continue to drink even though it¡¦s a destroyer. Shall I go to a normal 25-year-old musician and ask them why they bought the `African AID` (Forgot the name) CD to pay for the starving children in Africa when they voted for a government that rules in Capitalism, the law system that believes in burning thousands of tonnes of food so that prices are kept artificially high. Should I ask a Hindu 32-year-old shop owner why they have the caste system? Perhaps I should ask the so called `liberal` English mothers why they laid roasted Pork on the table when their daughter, a friend of mine who converted to Islam, came to visit her mother. Where was her love for her own daughter then?

And do you know what answer they will all give¡Kthey don`t know. They just follow the rules, they just follow their instincts. A society is a bit like a multicellular body, its complex and individuals are designed for usually one thing. Keeping this idea in mind, though I believe that everyone should have a lot of knowledge on their faith, there are usually some that are better than anyone else. Shiraz and all the others, if you have the guts then go to those types because they are specialised to answer your questions. Of course, then you cannot hide behind your fake name and you may find your years of ideas that have hardened crumble; that`s if you claim to be an apostate in the first place. Personally, I don`t buy that.

But otherwise, `don`t go to a 2 year old Black kid, knock him out and then claim that all blacks are weak,` if you know what I mean?

Omar Phoenix.

RE: Syed Ahmad

You dont even have the common decency to stand by your earlier sermon. It is just one post down for cryin` out loud.

However, I am glad that you are now able to differentiate between an insult and a message.

Scout# 162

You dont need to worry. You dont insult people and then hide behind your pseodonyms or steal intellectual property and hurl at others. Anything contrary to that is wrong.

Omar# 165

Sounds like a plan to me. Godspeed.

Farangi_Kush

Hum aah bhi laitay hain to ho jaatay hain badnaam
Woh Qatal bhi kartay haiN to charcha nahiN hota.

A racist/bigot is defined as one who is winning an argument from a liberal. Am proud to be a bigot.

This is to correct the errata in my last post #167; before Munkar-Nakir (i.e Zahra) hits me with her fiery club over my head.

Hum aah bhi ``kartay`` hain to ho jaatay hain badnaam
Woh Qatal bhi kartay haiN to charcha nahiN hota.

My dear fellows,

Let us unite not based on hatred (of hindus or karantas or jews or me for e.g.) because that would be divisive.

Instead let us unite out of love for each other because we are human beings.

Things like countries (nationalism), religion (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism), gender (Islam) will only cause more grief.

I notice some of you are getting the point - and you are feeling despondent and reacting in one of the following ways :

- oh us pakistanis are bad ! we are so and so etc.

- oh this author is bad ! he is so and so etc.

- oh they are all bad ! Islam is so and so etc.

It is not the fault of Pakistanis or Indians (we are born innocent).

It is fault of the following :

- my fault : my approach and way of talking has been bad (but that is because I don`t know any better). I apologize for my tone and for not being what you imagined me to be.

- to a large extent it is the ideaology that is prevalent in Pakistan : Islam. No matter how ``un islamic`` or ``westernized`` or ``liberal`` we act we have all been implanted with this virus (it is in latent form in non practising Muslims but it is ragingly active in the extremists like me : I was once a fanatic and devout Muslim - now I may be exposing the bad sides of Islam but I am doing it in the same way extremists would preach Islam.

Please don`t blame liberals or commies. Liberals are not interested in reading about religion. This whole compilation has been nothing but dry religious excerpts. No liberal would want the sorrow we are inflicting on each other. They are into enjoying life - they don`t spend time in front of the computer defending or rejecting Islam and getting carpal tunnel syndrome from typing personal attacks. They could care less. I am not a liberal or anything for till today I hang out with fanatics at the mosque and what is my excuse : ``to study them``)

I don`t know what the answers are. I know what I saw and read and practised and engaged in when I was a Muslim was inhuman (or ``divine``). It made me a bad person and large traces of it remain. These exposes are (perhaps) an attempt to regain my humanity.

Our people need us particularly when all the Islamic groups are taking over the country.

AH2000 # 162

Why is it a crime to question the character and integrity of author and a couple of other Chamchas and to call a theif a theif? While he insults 1 billion people and it is called a scholarly inquisition?

Dont you people have a shred of decency and shame left in you?

People`s voice.

Little Urstruly:

Shouldn`t it be Aah Bhurnaa[sighing] than Aah Kurna or Aah Lainaa ? Just a question.

(?_?)

[A repost]

Here are some anecdotes taken from Bernard Lewis`s translations. They are from probably what are among the first joke books in history. The point is that the glum seriousness that the quotes of Ghazali show are only one side of the story. For the humor impaired -- please remember, they were written centuries ago by Muslims for Muslims, the most recent being at least 700 years old.

* * *

Someone said to Ash`ab: If you were to relate hadith and stop telling jokes, you would be doing a nobler thing.

``By God``, answered Ash`ab. ``I have heard traditions and related them.``

``Then tell us, `` said the man.

``I have heard from Nafi``` said Ash`ab,`` on the authority of Ibn `Umar, that the Prophet of God, may God bless and save him, said, `There are two qualities, such that whoever has them is among God`s elect.```

``That is a fine tradition,`` said the man. ``What are these two qualities ?``

``Nafi` forgot one and I have forgotten the other,`` said Ash`ab.

* * *

Some people came to al-Rustumi`s house on some business, and the time came for the midday prayer. They asked him, ``Which is the direction of Mecca in this house of yours ?`` He replied,`` I only moved in a month ago.``

* * *

A man of the Qadari School was traveling in the company of a Magian. The Qadari asked him, ``Why don`t you become a Muslim, you Magian?`` ``When God wills it,`` replied the Magian. ``God has already willed it,`` said the Qadari, ``but the devil won`t let you. `` ``I am with the stronger,`` said the Magian.

* * *

A Bedouin went to market and heard them speaking bad Arabic. ``Praise be to God,`` he said. ``They commit solecisms, and make profits. We commit no solecisms and make no profits !``

* * *

Sultan Mahmud [of Ghazni] was attending a sermon in the Mosque. Talhak went there after him. When he arrived, the preacher stood up and said that if anyone had committed pederasty, then on the Day of Judgement the youth whom he had abused would be placed on his neck, and he would have to carry him over the Bridge of Doom.

Sultan Mahmud wept.

Talhak said ``O Sultan, do not weep but be of good cheer. On that day you won`t have to go on foot either.``

* * *

A man announced that he was God. He was brought before the Caliph who said to him ``Last year there was someone here who claimed to be a prophet. He was executed.`` ``That was well done,`` said the man, ``for I had not sent him.``

* * *

A Razi, Gilani and a Qazvini went together on pilgrimmage. The Qazvini was bankrupt, the Razi and the Gilani were rich.

When the Razi put his hand on the curtain ring of the Ka`ba, he said, ``O God, in thanksgiving to Thee for bringing me here safely I set free my slaves Balban and Banafsha.``

When the Gilani grasped the curtain ring, he said, ``In thanksgiving for this I set free my slaves Mubarak and Sunqur.``

When the Qazvini grasped the curtain ring he said, ``O God, Thou knowest I have neither Balban nor Sunqur,neither Banafsha nor Mubarak. In thanksgiving for this, therefore, I set free my old Fatima with a triple divorce.``

* * *

In the time of the Caliph Wathiq, a woman laid claim to prophethood.

The Caliph asked her, ``Was Muhammad a Prophet ?``

``Certainly,`` she replied.

``Then,`` said the Caliph, ``since Muhammad said, ``There will be no Prophet after me``, your claim is false.``

The woman replied, ``He said `There will be no Prophet after me.` He did not say, `There will be no Prophetess after me.```

* * *

A tumbler scolded his son and said, ``You do no work and you waste your time in idleness. How often must I tell you to practice somersaults and to learn how to dance on a rope and to make a dog jump through a hoop so that you can achieve something with your life. If you don`t listen to me, I swear by God I shall abandon you to the madrasa to learn their dead and useless science and to become a scholar so as to live in contempt and misery and adversity and never be able to earn a penny wherever you go. ``

* * *

Mawlana Sharaf al-Din Damghani was passing by the door of a mosque just as the mosque servant got hold of a dog and beat him inside the mosque. The dog howled. Mawlana opened the mosque door and the dog fled. The mosque servant abused the Mawlana.

``My friend,`` said Mawlana, ``excuse the dog. He has no understanding: that is why he went into the mosque. We others, who have understanding, you will never see us in the mosque.``

* * *

In the month of Ramadan someone said to a dealer, ``In this month there is no business.`` He answered ``God give long life to the Jews and the Christians.``

* * *

One day Abu Nawas was seen with a glass of wine in his hand, a bunch of grapes on his right, and a dish of raisins on his left, and every time he drank from the glass he took a grape and a raisin.

``What does this mean ?`` they asked him, and he replied, ``This is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.``

* * *

A man who claimed to be a prophet was brought before the Caliph al-Mu`tasim. Al-Mu`tasim said, ``I bear witness that you are a stupid prophet.`` The man replied, ``I have only come to people like you.``

* * *

The Caliph al-Mutawakkil asked a slave-girl whom he was inspecting, ``Are you a virgin or what ?``

``I am what, O Commander of the Faithful,`` she replied.

* * *

Ash`ab heard Hubba the woman of Medina say ``O please God, do not let me die until you have forgiven me for my sins !``

Ash`ab said to her, ``Wicked woman ! You are not asking God for forgiveness, you are asking Him for immortality. ``

* * *

-akg

``...when their daughter, a friend of mine who converted to Islam, came to visit her mother.``

Ouch, poor mother...offer my sympathies to her.

Urstruly (#170)

``Why is it a crime to question the character and integrity of author and a couple of other Chamchas and to call a theif a theif? While he insults 1 billion people and it is called a scholarly inquisition?...``

Oh, it`s no CRIME at all. Accuse all you want to my dear sir, but don`t pretend to believe that the pliagiarism in any way weakens his arguments. In any case, it`s a little doubtful whether reproducing a string of quotes, complete with references that, that have been around for a thousand years can count as plagiarism.

``...While he insults 1 billion people and it is called a scholarly inquisition?``

If quoting from sacred scriptures is insulting to a people, you have to wonder where the problem lies, wouldn`t you say? Incidentally, I don`t recall Shiraz ever claiming either to be a scolar or to be conducting a ``scholarly inquisition``. But I can understand why you, sir, might call it so. His prolificness IS impressive, even for a cut-and-paste artist :-)

And I really had no idea one billion people visited the chowk, all of them forced to read these interacts with guns to their heads!!

``Dont you people have a shred of decency and shame left in you?``

err.. which `people` are you referring to? If you mean the `ex-commie liberals`, I`m neither an ex-commie (who needs THEM with the leftist government we have in Canada :-) ) nor a liberal. Nothing irks me more than `neo-liberal` talk about `all religions being equally good`` and all. Pshaw!!!

Omarphoenix (#165)

This is interesting. You (not personally) fire back all you can, and when you run out of ammo, you claim that the war is unfair.

Do you honestly believe that x number of years in falana madrassa is going to make it any easier to reconcile the distasteful quotes presented here with present-day norms of decency --without the benifit of a lobotomy and/or brainwash? Do you honestly believe that the problem you see here is one of not having enough inforamtion?

If you do, I`d like to recommend The Emperor`s New Clothes as essential reading.

The biggest tragedy in all this for Muslims, I think, is that in expending so much energy trying to `defend the indefensible`-- both internally and externally, they would be able to appreciate what IS good in the religion that much less.

Solitude would have nothing to throw at you guys if you didn`t believe you had to defend EVERYTHING as gospel truth--`Perfect Man`, `Eternal Truth` and so on...)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Could anyone tell me if there are any Muslim fiqhs/ sects , Shia or Sunni, that DON`T espouse those beliefs?

Zahra,Urstruly:170 & 171

Here it is //Aah kurna .

Aaa bhurna is //sigh a reflexive & involuntary act.

Aah kurna is //cry in anguish,pain ,mostly as a result of the extrovert acts of the tormentor.Now because it is expilictly expressed,hence,the fear of adverse publicity//ho jaatey hain budnaam .

I hope it helped.

__________________________________________________

WASSALAAM

AH 2000 # 175

The last line of your post caught my attention. You are my kind of a guy. I respect honesty.

F_K # 177

Thanks for your guidance.

Zahra

Na Na Na NA Na Na