Ghazali On Women In Islam

ninah #91


well said!

RSaxena # 95

Well, you dont need to worry anyway and you keep at it. The ``punne`` of this janam count towards what you become in the next. Your present line of Karma strongly suggests of you becoming a rat (physically too)in one of your future janams-which is good. Then you can become a god for a good number of people.

Well said Bina,

There is no doubt in my mind that Islam is perhaps the only religion which accepts innate equality... what Islam gives room for is the gender construct... to deal with which, I believe options of Ijtihad and Ijmah were left open. What people like Sheraz will do is open those doors again as they rightly should be.

Let us not forget Srojini Naidu`s estimate of Islam ... yes the same Naidu that called Jinnah the greatest ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity.

``Islam is the only religion which allows for Democracy within its framework.``

I believe that all religions are held hostage to cultural lags, but I believe that the Islamic Framework allowed for an inbuilt system to deal with the cultural lag (Ijtihad). The fact that it was abandoned is another matter altogether.

For a Modern Muslim state, the six pillars should be ...

Itihad Imaan Tanzeem Tauheed Ijtihad Meezan

Unity Faith Discipline Oneness Legislation and Equality....

Is there anyone who can deny that the above mentioned are Islamic Concepts? Following these concepts of Islam the state that will result will be tolerant, humane and Progressive in nature!

Pakistan Zindabad

YLH

PS I urge Sheraz and Saxena to hold off their caustic remarks!

Bina:#97

Thank you for an uplifting post.

You all heard the bawling of one ashiqu-e Namuraad western-style 3rd millenium.

Around Ghazali`s time ist millenium,Here is another ashique.(His love-story in the next post).

``Naalaa-ey bulbul-ey shaidaa tho sunna hunse hunse kur

ubb jigar thaam kay baitho miree baaree aayee``

tr:With howls of laughter you heard the wails of the `lust`-smitten songbird

Now better get a grip on your heart,my story is next.

Ibn Hazm:around 1000 +/- CE (says)

``Women are just like sweet-smelling herbs,which lose their perfume if they are not cared for.They are a structure that collapses if neglected.For this very reason it has been said that beauty in men is finer,truer and more firmly rooted because it withstands things like noon-day heat,the desert simoom,and other wind changes and homelessness,all of which leave indelible traces on part or whole of a woman`s contenance.

The mutual attraction of two people for one another,if of a lasting nature,signifies a kinship of souls that is eternal.Moreover,this concept is deeply rooted in Islam and derives from the utterance of the Prophet(sww) that certain souls are united from the outset,and that their kinship on earth is merely a redisdovery of one another.``

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wassalaam

Mr. Asif;

[This article, if it had been balanced and fair in approach would have merited a proper response but as the aim is obviously to inflame the minds of poor Muslims lik myself who actually love and adore Hazrat Imam Ghazzali rahmatullah alayhi (and what can you know of this Imam`s true greatness? Sufi, saint, scholar, philosopher, par excellence--the very proof of Islam. You cannot. He is an insan-al-kamil --a Perfect Man.]]]

---This Ghazali character had lost it long before. now I suggest, you do some `hunger with a purpose` and fast your way into understanding that any person who sheds his insecurities about a women being an equal member of society in the persuit of heaven, is not man enough.

HERE IS A LINK I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND.

http://www.tolueislam.com/Bazm/SA_Women_Recreated.htm

Shamim Anwer is awesome.

Thanks, Mr. Shiraz for the attempt of galvanising the backward trend of some muslims.

Islam is a challange to religion.

Wassalam.

-AISHA FAYYAZI SARWARI

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

One has to admire and salute the brave souls like asif naqshbandi, fairdinkum, farangi kush, and mateen and others who make valiant efforts to defend the indefensible. I say indefensible because the reality is glaring us all in the eye. Classical Islam, as a socio-political philosophy, is utterly incompatible with a system based on representative democracy, individual rights and free markets. Fine tune it all you want, but Islam is in its best and noblest in the human heart.

The article is unfair to Ghazali: after all, he was only the first one in a long line of prominent eccentrics who elevated prejudice to scholarly discourse. That long line continues unabated today with the likes of Mullah Omar, Ali Khamanei, and Sheikh bin Baaz. God knows why these people don`t get a real job instead of being perpetually obsessed with women. The sickos need to be, as someone said earlier, sent to Texas!

To begin with I praise the one.

Thank Ye; o faithful,for you have shown such courage and dignified restraint; not one of you has come out beating your chest and generally making asses of ye self that you are so well known for.Especially in this holy of holiest times(parise be again for i am not the one who has to suffer your heavenly breath at the end of the day).

The case of my child bride is still pending,not one of you has come forward so far with any reasonable offers. (I bid you to obey lest the wrath of one be with you.)And you may have to answer in 1.1 billion years(now where did that come from....people i may be downloading another one.)

I know some wise ones amongst you have suggested to up the age a little perhaps 11-12?? well what do i care ive been fudging my own age so be it.

I know, I know, some among you will say i would still be arrested and put in jail in any part of the so called civilized world,but you know in the parts urstruly rule there should be no such fetid laws.I have never set any injunctions to protect so called children.

So now you know it,come on don`t be shy bring em on cause what you want is rewards and i got plenty to give away just check with my other twelve(now i don`t have to adjust that figure do I).

BTW if you feel shy calling me by name just call me messenger(pupoo)

Re: urstruly

``The ``punne`` of this janam count towards what you become in the next. Your present line of Karma strongly suggests of you becoming a rat (physically too)in one of your future janams-which is good.``

Bad muslim, bad muslim. There is no Karma and next life...it is all about how many cousins you marry, how many kafirs you convert, and whether you participate in Jihad..only then will you get the several teenage virgins waiting for you in heaven. But clearly since you are now thinking about Karma and respecting other life forms, you`ve strayed...you better be careful lest you get suspected of apostasy.

ninah #91,

Excellent analysis.

urstruly #99,

Gosh that`s funny. But don`t get too carried away, you`ll be accused of being a Mullah.

Rsaxena,

Take it like a man, with your chillY spiked tandoori chicken ;).

sigalph:#103

I protest that my name is being used in the same context as Mr.Naqushbandis.I am sure the others mentioned,whether they Interact here or not would not be too pleased either.

Similarly you too would not like to be seen in the company of //Solitude or //messenger .OR would you,rather?

This for for the record.All & sundry please take note and pass it on.

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wassalaam

RSaxena # 105

Bad rat, bad bad rat, bad god. You dont know how to apprciate your well wisher. Just imagine the time when you will be taking bath in the bowls full of milk and nibbling on other parsad left by yaatris and worshippers. Just imagine ``daasis` and ``kanya`` drinking your ``bathing water`` as a fertility medicine. Good times are coming. Just a little precaution-stay away from the pesticide pellets-they make `em yellow just like cheese.

RE: Scout# 107

Your post came as a surprise to me. Well according to Chowk standards I do qualify as a standard bigot. I abhor the liberal crap and I am quite candid about it. I also hate political correctedness, and consider pacifism, white chocolate, and teletubbies as a curse on humanity. I am a jehadist to the core of my bones and do kick punk-ass if I get time after cooking my dinner- you know omellete and stuff-after work.

ninah #91

Dear ninah,

Your statement:

“Take for example, the much quoted saying about the testimony of two women being equal to that of one man. Given the barbaric nature of Arab society at that time, and that of every uncivilized society on earth, this law was there to given women protection of another witness, because women were more likely to give way under pressure, than men were. It`s obviously not that Islam thought they were too stupid, if it gives them the credit of being able to differentiate between right and wrong, how stupid can they be?”

Fine…. How about now? In the 21st century?
Given that human thought has evolved quite a bit in that time and societies, generally speaking, are not so barbaric as the pre-Islamic Arab society… and given that this laws is being exploited to discriminate against women in certain “barbaric” societies such as Pakistan – e.g., hudood ordinance - shouldn’t we get rid of this law? Why the insistence that it is the word of God… absolute, and valid for all times?

Your statement:

“A lot of seemingly gender biased laws can be reasoned with if you understand the basic premise : one of the most vital points of Islam was to make life easier, better for women. That feeling comes out clearly between the lines. And those lines themselves have to be read and assimilated keeping that premise in mind. If someone doesn`t do that, and uses well intentioned phrases deliberately out of context or twists their meaning to demoralize and denigrate women, then they are not acting in good faith, and they simply do not deserve the common courtesy of being entertained. “

Given that clergy has read “between the lines” to suppress women for centuries… you still believe we should read “between the lines” for a “clear” understanding of issues such as rights of women? Is this good enough in this day and age? How about clearly saying that these laws, as interpreted by our clergy, no longer make sense in the 21st century? Don’t you think we’ve had enough of reading between the lines?

re. ninah #97

The sort of intellectual dishonesty you display is exactly the reason I agree with Solitude that Isam can be a very bad thing-- it`s seems to rob its adherents of the capacity of any trace of objectivity and prompts them to these convoluted exercises in apologetics.

You say `` Initially, I was very put off by the seemingly chauvnistic laws, that I read here and there. But after reflection, I can come up with a far more reasonable explanation for why those laws came into being.``

Gee, who needs to rely on hundreds of references from the Quran and Hadiths for an indication on the roots of these chauvanistic laws when we have fine persons like you to just reflect on them a little and come up with far more reasonable explanations, eh? I mean, you couldn`t possbily be influenced by your own biases to actually FORCE the `desired` conclusions out, no matter how ugly the `reasoning`, now could you? Naah!

Let`s see. You say...

``Take for example, the much quoted saying about the testimony of two women being equal to that of one man. Given the barbaric nature of Arab society at that time, and that of every uncivilized society on earth, this law was there to given women protection of another witness, because women were more likely to give way under pressure, than men were. It`s obviously not that Islam thought they were too stupid, if it gives them the credit of being able to differentiate between right and wrong, how stupid can they be?``

This `reasoning` would be totally disgusting if it weren`t so hilariously stupid. I mean, could you grasp any harder at straws than this?? Now pray tell, why was the witness of the UNBELIEVER rated as 1/2 of that of a Muslim?

Anyway, pray tell now, which part of the hadith below did you have difficulty following:

- The Prophet said, ``Isn`t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?`` The women said, ``Yes.`` He said, ``This is because of the deficiency of a woman`s mind.`` - Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826.

(and there`s lots more where that came from)

So, now, when things don`t add up the way we`d like them to, what should we do? Disregard Sahih Bukhari and call for Sahih ninah to ``reflect`` upon the matter and make everything hunky-dory, right?

Your following attempt to sanitize the edict against women praying during their mensus is even more disgusting to the itellectual sensibilities. You say

``And God, who knows better than everyone else that menstrual blood is actually the DIRECT source of NUTRIENTS for the growing fetus for nine months, is not going to reject menstual blood as ``not holy`` ``

Well, obviously God gets a little forgetful every now and then, or His messenger isn`t readin Him right ...

- He [The Prophet] said, ``This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn`t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?`` The women replied in the affirmative. He said, ``This is the deficiency in her religion.`` ] (lost the references but will be happy to provide it later)

Now which part of THAT didn`t you understand? You continued...

`` The real reason is that many women are simply incapicitated for at least the first few days of their menstual period, and God understands that. Many of us actually thank god for this monthly reprieve from regular prayers and fasting, because when you have a whopper of a back pain as well as cramps, and you have to keep changing every two hours like a toddler, the first thing on your mind is not going to be about selfless devotion but about making yourself feel comfortable . And remember at the time these laws were handed down, women didn`t have pain killers like Midol to make them feel better, or state of the art technology as applied to super absorbent all day long pads either, which, it cannot be denied, have made a huge difference to women everywhere.``

Now don`t you think (or is that not an element in your reflective process?) that if God was merely being cosiderate of the Woman`s problems He coulda just kept praying an open option for them uring mensus? Oh, but God`s ways are His ways, right? Well, then why try to reflect and understand them in the first place?

(anyway, enjoyed reading the lengthy `explanation`)

``A lot of seemingly gender biased laws can be reasoned with if you understand the basic premise : one of the most vital points of Islam was to make life easier, better for women. That feeling comes out clearly between the lines.``

Oh I see. And pray tell, where`d you establish that premise? Oh, the FEELING that comes out clearly between the lines. (somwhat like ylh`s `feeling` that Ayesha must`ve been older when hroted). Well, ninah, try not to skip the lines themselves when reading what`s between them next time. And next time you set out to `reflect`, try having something to reflect ON. Oh, I don`t think setting out to reconcile uncomfortable `facts` with one`s wishes counts as reflection. Try `mental gymnastics` instead.

If this is the best you can come up with, and if this kind of sorry `explanations` draws the admiration of otherwise intelligent Muslims, then what Shiraz is saying is spot: Religion (or the need to think of it as perfect)is doing a number on your psyche/brain.

regards,

PM

Tahmed (#334 from the other board, but more relevant here)

``Maybe you need to keep one [Quran] in the closet, and go through it. You will then realize that if the adherents are really as fascinated by it as you think, you as a non-muslim Pakistani would feel as much at home as you do in more civilized countries.``

And all this while I`ve been thinking that the 1/2-worth of a non-Muslim`s testimony had a Quranic basis! Silly me!



Would ANYONE, when their head emerges from the sand, care to throw some light on the questions I posed in #57. Thank you krashid for your reply, but the use of irony, although amusing, wasn`t really helpful.