The Soft Option

As depressing reading as Feroze`s post (#454) makes, one has to wonder why he shouldn`t be believed.

The honeymoon some of us had with the General seems to be over. What CAN we realsticaly expect from the `leaders` now??

Do we believe Feroze is wrong because there are contrary indications -- or only because we do not WANT to believe that what he claims might be true.

Would someone care to point out where the light is for Pakistan`s tunnel, if at all there is any?

regards,

PM

Re: Tibor

``And to all the Indian please help me find a way to assure Ylh that we accept existence of Pakistan and he doesn`t bring up this pseudo argument again``

He knows that already. He uses it as a smoke-screen to see if he can rile up some support amongst the intelligent Pakistanis....it hasn`t been working too well.

The real problem, as I identified in an earlier post, is that he is a very insecure little fellow and looks to find something in Pakistan`s miserable existence to be proud of. One way of doing that is to attack India (which indeed has many problems but has bright spots too). When he attacks India, he does it foolishly and many Indians rip his nonsense to pieces. The result is the countless inane posts made in desperation and humiliation.

If his purpose is to attack India, he should recognize the real problems and write about them: population control, lack of free education, failed economic policies, and poverty. Then, instead of attacking his nonsense, many Indians would agree with him. Instead, he creates fictitious plots and finds news stories of isolated incidents of racial and ethnic unrest in a country of 1 billion diverse people and tries to present them as institutionalized problems (as in Pakistan).

Ali1 #455,

yeah whatever....you are right, you were justified in talking about rubbing a holy book in dogshit.

i salute you

regards,

Harpreet

Feroze

When was the last time you went to Pakistan...

Feroze problem arises when you let intellectualism

become defeatism... whereas everything is not dandy in Pakistan, the prophet of doom that you sound like, doesnot seem to be speaking about Pakistan.

The immortal words of Einestein are

``Dont let intellect become God, because it has powerful muscles but no personality``

Yasser Hamdani

fairdinkum #440
Thanks for your informative post. Do bear with me while I take the liberty of completing my thoughts in layman terms.

Sadhana

I thought maybe Ms Author may be a front person for the National Rifle Association eager to make guns cheap enough for her neighbourhood hoodlum to get the opportunity to demonstrate ``clear vision and committment``, but guess what, even the NRA does wishy-washy things like quoting the Constitution of the land and voting for politicians who work by collective bargaining and consensus based on peaceful terms and not gun power/brute force.

I resent the implication of Ms Author that the man on the street who chooses not to take the law into his hands and peacefully casts his vote doesnot display clear vision, ideology and committment to a cause. And as fairdinkum says, just because a politician is not willing to die or kill to achieve his aims, it doesnot mean he lacks sincerity or committment to a cause.

If every human being chose to exercise his individual ideology through brute force as demonstration of his committment and clear vision, there would have to be bilateral/multilateral agreements worked out millions of times a day at every street corner, whenever gun-toting highwaymen-types crossed over into each other`s regions of influence. To substitute for this massive and unproductive disorder, a single law of the land is accepted by broad consensus to operate over longer time spans and geographical spaces.

A citizen normally accepts the restraints of the law of the land in exchange for the benefits. The concept that the benefits are based on justice and outweigh the restraints is many thousand years old and normally figured out sometime during one`s high school years, btw, when one takes a break from M&Bs.

What should concern sincere journalists and reporters who are said to be one of the important pillars of democracy is this. Where is the consensus for the `law of the land` being manufactured or misused by local power brokers or by the instruments of the state itself and what are the reasons?. Where is the `law of the land` being co-opted directly or indirectly by entities(state or nonstate) not having the legitimacy of people`s consent.

Re terrorists, its a simple equation. If they genuinely wish to share with larger numbers of people the success of their ``clear vision and commitment towards a cause and an ideology,`` even terrorists have to eventually give up their `brute force` modus operandi and begin operating by consensus, aka become politicians seeking public support and votes under commonly accepted laws.

Many terrorists are unable to do so as fairdinkum says. It was said when the NIreland agreement fell through that the head of the IRA was unable to get lower cadres to give up their arms. The reason was the lower cadres didnot want to give up the control of neighbourhoods and their people which they had enjoyed by force of the gun, and submit themselves to `people`s will` and `people`s choice`.

Another `de-legitimizing` feature of terrorists is that they are often unable to handle the concept of consensus among many is as macgupta describes in #425. They cannot handle dissent wrt objectives and they cannot handle dissent even among those with similar objectives. The wiping-out of all moderate/diverse viewpoints is a feature seen in many armed movements.

Sadhana

Ferozk #454 you write ``Pakistan needs a bloody revolution to get rid of the bad blood of the last 53 years. ``

Fine. Lets get the guillotine going starting with those who talk easily about bloody revolutions with the comfort of knowing that the blood shed will be that of others, not theirs. Care to step forward?

Tibor #443,

I like the cut of your cloth Tibor

regards

Harpreet

Feroze

post# 454,

Please tell me youre being sarcastic or funny. If not, youre bumming me out pal.

ylh,

instead of fighting with the likes of tibor & saxena ( a useless stalemate), please set my dear friend Feroze straight with your youthful enthusiasm & optimism about Pakistan. You just might win with him. All my Prozacs havent lifted his depression.

Farzana ,

{{Yes, I too have learned a great deal here (especially about the books I ought to read!!), and it has been just a week. I am quicker at it...it took you two years!}}

No doubt! All the more reason you should be a regular at chowk. I learn a lot from people wiser than me.

{{You were wondering whether I should step in and keep the discussion from going off at a tangent. I wish it would not, but I think it would amount to hogging space if I butted in often.}}

That is the author`s perogative. There is plently of space in chowk, so ``hogging space`` is never an issue.



{{As regards being an outspoken Muslim, have you tried that out? Get into my shoes and, forget walking great distances, your every slip will be considered a slapstick comedy and your every step a move towards dangerous territory, deliberately inviting trouble.}}

I wish I could ``get into your shoes``, alas it is impossible for me to do so. Its like asking me to feel the pain of a menstrual cramp! What I like about you is that you are`nt afraid of expressing how you feel & fortunately you dont seem to be upset if it raises the hackles of some people. (I hope I`m understanding you correctly). So what if you like to kick a beehive? especially if the stings of angry bees dont hurt you. Thats more courageous than being scared of cockroaches.

I remember sometime ago, a Pakistani stated that muslims are much better off in Pakistan because Indian hindus have subjugated muslims in India so much that they are forced to become docile. Whether thats true or not, you certainly dont fit that typecast. I find it hard to believe that you are a ``tame soul``.

More power to you!

Back to the original article, the meaning of jihad. For a jihadist it is victory or shehadad. Of late in response to the cease fire, the number of suicide attacks have increased. With the soldiers not firing the suicide attacks appear to be the only recourse for shehadad. May be india should follow the israeli example, where they have contained the jihad by delivering shehadad to the homes of the jihadists, through rockets, missiles, exploding mobile phones and of late through car headrests.

Some never learn.

Tibor

I will leave it to the interactors to judge your childish reply.

However I want to make one thing clear, I was not born in the same species as you, so dont flatter yourself. I am a human being! and you are an Indian.

Pakistan Zindabad

Yasser Hamdani

Harpreet # 321

``You really stepped over the boundary here I feel``

Please let me know if you think this person stepped over the boundry too:

http://chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=ashirazet_nov3000&n=290#reply28

or this one

http://chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=ashirazet_nov3000&n=210#reply104

Why should Islam be the only religion to be insulted on this forum???

sincerely

Re: Fairdinkum (sp?)

If you want light, I would suggest (quite sarcastically) that you buy a flash light! :)

I agree with the letter submitted to the Information Times, as posted by Bilal, and the questions posed by the editor of the said magazine. Light will dawn one day in Pakistan, but after a bloodly interregum!

Does this episode suggest that if you have money, you can rape Pakistan and then go free by buying your freedom? What does this suggest, pray tell me?

Taliban will come, because the western educated elite are discredited; the politicans have been shown to be a bunch of lying cheating whores; the army is more interested in real estate than the future of the country; justice has a price and can be bought, if you have the money; bureaucracy is determined to maintain its strangle hold on Pakistan and abort any meaningful reforms; the ghost of feudalism continues to haunt Pakistan and considers the nation as a personal fief of a few ``chosen`` families; sectarianism thrives in Pakistan; radicalism and polarization are becoming in vouge as far as Pakistani politics are concerned; Pakistan is economically on its death bed; Pakistan`s foreign policy is decided in Washington, Saudi Arabia and in the board rooms of the IMF, Paris and London Clubs; areas of Baluchistan and NWFP are under the influence of Taliban; Punjab ignores the reality and lives in a wonderland; Sindh is seething with violence; price of utilities are increasing day by day, thanks to IMF; the government lies daily; reality is becoming difficult by the hour; Pakistan`s future is mortaged to the tune of 38 billion dollars and the list can go on...

Pray tell me, what light are you talking about and where can we buy/get this blessed light of yours?

Pakistan needs a bloody revolution to get rid of the bad blood of the last 53 years. Everything is a joke in Pakistan and everything is a lie in Pakistan and unless this whole sordid structure is torn down and re-created, there is no salvation for Pakistan!

Ciao!

In response to fairdinkum (Reply # 452)
Dear Fairdinkum:

No sane person enjoys heat (bloody revolution; serious conflicts). There is enough light around us, we definitely need some action.

I am for uninterrupted resistance. The politicians need to come forward and show to the military that her concept of ``national interest`` is flawed and she has no place in politics. This courageous action is most likely to lead to necessary social change and to a new social contract.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re: #449 #450 #451

We have enough heat… what we need is some light!

Heat is what this article delivers. Heat is what the rhetoric of bloody revolution seek…

Revolution? Talibanization?

Will they bring light? what do we deserve? Heat or Light?

THE RHETORIC OF BLOODY REVOLUTION

A Pakistani citizen, Shawn Mahmood, wrote to the Pakistan Journal, Information Times (December 22, 2000):

General Musharraf Has Raped Pakistan

Nawaz Sharif and Shahbaz Sharif, the kings of corruption and Dons of PML Mafia, purchased corrupt Pakistan Army generals with stolen public money to escape from their jails to Saudi Arabia.

Pakistan Needs a Bloody Revolution Now!

The Pakistani people must rise to arrest, prosecute and punish all the crooks and criminals who illegally rule Pakistan.

. . .The only salvation for the people of Pakistan is a French-style revolution. If the people of Punjab think that they are victims of this game along with other Pakistanis, then they have to lead the revolution. If they did not do what is needful, then Pakistan will surely break because history is a witness that this kind of mockery of accountability and this type of travesty of justice in the ``greater national interest`` and ``the doctrine of necessity`` will divide Pakistan because tyranny and injustices cannot last too long.

Shawn Mahmood