The Soft Option

Nacheita #573

I agree with you. If she would have written with the name of Lal Devi with all the opposite remarks, it would have been a masterpiece by Indian standard.

By the way I never knew India has any standard, except Hinduvta bias.

Prem #575

It is voices like yours which puts some faith in India as multicultural country.

Not the loathing of religion per se. But identifying problems and finding ways to correct them.

The biggest strength Hinduism has is that many people are open to change. The biggest weakness that Hinduism has is that very few people know how to change.

The political, publicity-seeking, shrill Hindu revival movements (typically of the right wing) are intellectually vacuous. You will rarely find an accurate assessment of them from Indians. Obviously, the Hindu right themselves will not admit to this shortcoming. The others, secularists, Marxists, etc. will not mention it either, because then Hindutva becomes so much less of a threat.

So, it takes a Western supporter of the Hindu right wing to point this out. The following is adapted from Professor Koenraad Elst.

The common people have enthusiasm but are guided by little other than slogans. When communists organize a strike they also educate the workers about their ideology and long-term goals. Not the Hindutva crowd.

The communists have a vast literature. On almost anything you will find a number of books that give the ``Marxist view``. For Hindutva, there is just nothing at all.

``There is not academic articulation of the Hindu approach to any relevant issue``.

My comment :

These people are very confused about what they are for, they think they know what they are against, and blindly lash around like a maddened blind elephant.

-----

Then there are ``underground`` movements. I know of one. Did you know that well over a million people from all over India met on December 10th in the name of bhakti ?

Dear Desis, seek out an organization that does not give out press releases, seeks no political clout, does not beg for money, that is not based on a premise of being against someone or something. You will then know that it is aims to do real religious work.

-Arun Gupta

Prem #575 Maybe you ought to write this one. I bet many Pakistanis will see it reflecting their own concerns as well.

tahmed321 (#571?) is right. Can we PLEASE have an article on the strengths and weaknesses of the Hindu society as it moves into the 21st century.

How can we make a progressive, tolerant, and strong community that lives in peace with itself and with everyone else; one that atones for centuries of dehumanizing its own people under caste system; one that keeps the good that our forefathers (and especially mothers) taught us and jettisons the useless junk of centuries past; one that allows every individual man and woman to worship science, god (s), God, none, or all of them; one that threatens none and is threatened by none?

Mihir,

I hear you. Your points are valid. I am not saying all muslims in India are like the ones in Pakistan and Bangladesh. I have enough muslim friends to conclude that.

Regarding ISI in ghettoes. I wouldn`t rule out local support and sympathy for Pakistani activity. Even if 5% of Indian muslim population supports Pakistan it`s enough to put the whole community under a cloud.

Regarding Christians and the other minorities. We are talking about muslims here. But, I would like the entire Indian population to accept UCC.

Regarding Pakistan and Bangladesh. It rankles to me no end when Farzana says ``atleast they don`t go around tom-tomming that they are secular``. What the heck does that mean? Just because they have openly become anti-minority makes them better? If India tries to be secular but, is not completely successful it is worse than our two neighbours. What sort of twisted logic is that?

I would like to know in what way the people in power have been suppressing the poor muslims. Have they been denying them admission in mainstream schools. Is there some sort of an active discrimination against muslims in India? I would sure like to know about them.

Sure, Hindus are distrustful of muslims but, then so are muslims of Hindus. There are enough opportunities for muslims to exploit to better their lives. I know somebody (a poor muslim) who has been precisely able to do that. It just doesn`t do sit on ones haunches and curse hindus for discriminating against muslims. Muslims have to do something on their own. It`s the duty of educated and successful muslims to show the way. To present avenues and opportunities for their community members.

I sure would like to know what we Hindus have to do make the muslim population welcome. A list of points would be great. I sure would like to know what my responsibilities as a Hindu are.

Regarding muslim ambanis, we have Azim Premji. The richest Indian, in fact.

Law of Chowk interacts - Number of posts shall be inversely proportional to the quality of writing in the underlying article. If there was a point in Ms Versey`s article it was buried under too many incoherent arguments. Even by the standards of Indian journalism I think her writing is pretty deplorable.

mihirsharma #570 I agree that the Muslim community in India has developed independantly of the muslims in Pakistan. Even in the US, Pakistanis and Indian muslims do not mix very much socially for the simple reason that they grew up in separate countries and so do not have too much in common by way of family or school ties and so forth.

Also, there is much to be said for taking a critical look at one`s own community (even though community is a nebulous concept that changes with how you look at things at any time - chowk itself is a community, for example, even though a weird one of Indians and Pakistanis who will never meet). I would go a step further and say that one should reserve the most critical look at one`s own self - one`s physical hygiene, healthy vs. unhealthy habits, behavior towards others and so forth - then about one`s friends and family and only then about big things like India-Pakistan relations that one person cannot change anyway. So: in that spirit, I assume that you will follow the same advice you gave to Ms. Versey, and enlighten us all in your next post (or perhaps with an article on chowk, seeing that this thread is about to disappear) with your thoughts on the cultural shortcomings of Hindu society and how it comes in the way of socio-economic progress. You will then set an example for all of us on chowk, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isaee.

Re: Mihir

``Oh, and RSaxena, `diction` is only used for spoken words.``

I think what you intended to say is that ``diction is used only for spoken words.`` An astray ``Only`` can be dangerous.

``Another reason why you for one are not a widely-read and respected author.``

As I have ashamedly admitted already...

Perhaps since you too need help with your writing, we can take a class together?

to Farzana #563 and MaheshG #564

1. Ghettoes do harbour ISI agents. Only it would be more appropriate to say that ISI agents can most easily infiltrate ghettoes. There is nothing surprising about that, and nor does it imply that the residents of the ghettoes have anything to do with it. It is just that is one wishes to set up a militant fundamentalist organisation in an area that is ghetto-ised, there is no alternative to setting up shop in the ghetto of the community one is (supposedly) trying to organise. That takes care of Farzana`s reference to the Bombay political party as well as Mahesh`s reference to ghettoes - the people may not be `harbouring` them in an active sense. That is an assumption that needs facts to back it up.

2. The Muslim community and `integrating`. I think it is fair to make two points - the first is that people willingly go to Christian schools that are quite as sectarian as many most madrasas - every Christian certainly does. I did. Yet that is the `mainstream` because the quality of education provided is considered better. Muslims congregate in specific areas because of concerns for their own security. That`s pretty obvious. The Muslims are not alone in opposition to a Uniform Civil Code, so are other communities - there is much discussion on right now about the Christian divorce bill, yet these communities are not considered outside the mainstream for that reason.

That being said, it is nevertheless true that the Muslim community is outside the mainstream in some sense - basically that it is economically less priviliged. Whether this is because of lack of leadership in the community encouraging people to educate their children or choose such methods of advancement, or systematized discrimination is open to question. I personally think it is a mix of these two factors. I also believe that the fact that the entire middle class was lost to us at the time of Partition has something to do with it, as it broke down the internal dynamics of the community and also meant that there were no clearly defined `role models`. This means that the community would tend to get stuck in the ghettoes.

The Uniform Civil Code is a knotty problem. I personally believe that it would go far to breaking down the resistance within the Muslim community to social reform and the consequent economic prosperity. However, there needs to be broader consensus within the community about it - this can only occur when elements within the community that are currently not sufficiently represented in the decision-making process within the community - I mean women, for example- are given more of a voice.

3. Individual Muslim successes have been frankly few and far between and have tended to be from the remnants of that pre-partition Muslim middle class. There have been no Muslim Ambanis. I think it is fair to say that for the vast majority Muslims the combination of social stagnation and stereotyping by those in positions of power has meant that they cannot succeed.

4. A non-issue. I think that the Muslim leadership has been met more than half-way by many political decision-makers in the past. The problems that Farzana has been talking about are those that are in spite of this and thus arise from (a) the community`s dependence on this leadership and (b) the inability of mainstream politicians to directly address the deprived Muslim`s concerns.

5. I dont think that Farzana considers that BD and Pkstn have treated their minorities better than we have. I think that she agrees that they have been treated worse there. And Mahesh`s point is that this means that subcontinental Muslims in general distrust Hindus. I dont think that is a fair leap of logic. The Muslims of India are a different set of people from those in BD/Pkstn because of 50 years of distinct development. The fact is that we have been remarkably liberal and secular when judged against our neighbours, Farzana - and that there is nothing that you can assume about Indian Muslims based on Bangladeshi ones, Mahesh. Unless you are one of those that believe that most Indian Muslims are illegal immigrants anyway.

6. Another non-issue. The Muslim community needs to look inward as well as outward to examine what went wrong, and I think that they are doing that. Even the new Shahi Imam has said that the community has to do that.

7. As above. I`d like to see Farzana talk about what she thinks is wrong with the community internally.

Happy New Year to all, though I expect Ill have to respond to a few things before that.

Oh, and RSaxena, `diction` is only used for spoken words. Another reason why you for one are not a widely-read and respected author. If another was needed.

Mihir

Re: Sadhna #568

Great article. Not a surprise though. For the jehadis across the border, children should not be watching sesame street and reading tinkle comics but becoming shaheeds. Superman is not a hero...Abdul Mohammad bin Haramzada who got a bullet up his behind is.

Funny thing is that despite getting a swift kick on its ass in past wars against India, Pakistan still insists on getting another body part slashed off. In 1971, we split it right down the middle...what sweet victory it was....too bad the idiots haven`t learned any lessons.

Here are the people Ms Versey wants to leave Kashmiris alone with:
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/review/review2.htm
``An interview with a mujahid
By M.H.

At a glance, one could not even suspect the 22-year-old young man with the tough, brawny figure, working in a shop, to be a jihadi. Kashmir seems to be so far away from Karachi that it wouldn`t strike one that he would have recently been there. But he is a jihadi. In fact, he claims he was at the front during the Kargil crisis and returned only after he suffered an injury when a bullet furrowed past his knee. He shows the scar which reminds him of the deep wound he had suffered.

His group, he says, ``does not send fighters to Afghanistan, where Muslims are fighting against Muslims - as that is not a jihad - but only to Kashmir. Volunteers join up because of Lashkare Tayebba`s high principles - it keeps away from sectarian conflicts; their belief is, `when Muslims fight Muslims, both parties are jahanamis (destined for hell)`.

It is a matter of great pride for him to be able to fight for Islam and he adds proudly that his elder brother is already a shaheed, and now, his younger brother, a 14-year-old is also undergoing training. And when asked, isn`t it wrong to send children to fight? He replies, ``People say it is. But I tell them when the young in the family begin to train, it is a matter of shame for the elders who hesitate to join.``

He then quotes from the Quran, the verses on jihad, and says it is the duty of Muslims to sacrifice all and take part in war against offenders of Islam. ``When parents are against their sons joining up, we read and explain the verses and then they yield,`` he says. Each volunteer, he explained, must undergo three levels of training. Three weeks of Daur-i-Aama; followed by three weeks of Daur-i-Dora Sofa when religious teachings are imparted; and finally three months of Daur-i-Khasa or guerrilla training. ``It is extremely tough, specially for the young, but God gives them strength.`` The volunteers, he said, are not paid anything at all and their families have to somehow manage.

He adds that while he was at the front, his father `understood,` and looked after the family. More than a 1000 people of the Lashkare Tayebba, mostly hailing from Gujranwala and Lahore, have been martyred in the same cause which keeps this young man at the front. ``

Does Ms Versey and so many co-religionists on either side of the border also feel ``it is a matter of shame for the elders who hesitate to join.``, or they are all wishy-washy people only spouting high principle from a safe distance and doing nothing?

Sadhana

Krashid # 566

Whom are you kidding Rashid. With the genocidal maniacs in power, whose hands are red with the blood of inncocent minorities they still think that they are pluralistic, democratic, and secular. I will keep my mouth shut on pluralism and secularism cuz once it opens then it will be hard to stop, howevr, if by de-Mock-racy they mean elected governments then we had more election in past ten years than they had in past 25. Allama Iqbal has warned them a long time ago:

``watan ki fiqar kar nadaaN, museebat aanay waali hay
teri barbaadioN kay Mashwaray haiN aasmaanoN maiN

Na samjho gay to mit jao gay Hindutan waalo

Tumahari dastaN bhi nah ho gi daastanoN maiN

I hope they stop kidding themselves and get down off their high horses.

PS. I never thanked you for inventing two great terminologies that define Indians:

De-Mock-Rats

and

Sequelar-ism

Thank you

Mahesh G #564

After reading your response in your post, I should again urge to declare India a Hindu state rather than a pluralistic democratic and secular state.

Because that is what the message of your whole post.

To Farzana #563,

``So, why were the guards unarmed? Why is the GOI sleeping? Do we want to become ‘shahids’ in the eyes of the world, and say, look, we have said ceasefire and this is what these terrorist are doing? What??``

That was very good, I remember several posts by pakistanis during the hijacking, that it was a plot by the indians to tarnish the pak image, indians should have stopped the plane.

I can well understand your desire to create a gun culture, there is a neighbouring country where the religious leaders travel with AK47 armed guards. It is a conflict of civilisations, no doubt.

Farzana Versey #563

`` I am surprised that you have chosen to take my reply (537) in such a cavalier fashion. When I say I am not answerable, I am called arrogant. Tell me, why should I painstakingly respond to something when it is not going to be taken in the right spirit? I am< afraid your post, besides being rather insulting to me, reveals the scourge I have been talking about all along…``

I am sorry if I have insulted you in anyway. That was not my intention. Maybe I got carried away in putting my points across. If I come across as insulting believe me that is not my intention.

`` 1. The assumption that ghettoes harbour ISI agents (please go and

check the goons of a political party in Bombay worming their way

into slum colonies).

``

Are you saying no such thing ever happens. It would be mighty surprising if you tell me there are no Pakistani sympathizers ever among Indian muslims.

`` 2. The assertion that the Muslim community has not tried to

integrate as a whole into the mainstream. Please define “integrate

into the mainstream”.

``

Why do muslim children study in madrassahs? Is the govt. actively trying to keep muslims away from regular schools. Why don`t I meet muslims on the streets. Why do muslims congregate in selected areas and not spread themselves out more. Why do muslims insist on their own civil laws? Why are they against UCC?

`` 3. If a few Indian Muslims have made it big in India it is not

because the community is not being discriminated against, and

you want to know about the ‘community as a whole’, don’t you? ``

Are you saying the individual muslims successes are inspite of the active discrimination by the majority community?

`` 4. It is the job of majority communities anywhere, in any area of

life, to make the minorities feel welcome. As for 50-50

responsibility, how many Muslims are given an opportunity of

meeting, forget halfway, even a quarter of the way? ``

What do you mean how many muslims are given the opportunity? Isn`t India a free country. What do you want the majority community to do. Can you tell me in what ways the muslims are being discriminated against.

`` 5. To quote the example of Pakistan and Bangladesh, countries

that have been amputated from India, makes no sense, because

the reason for their creation and their purpose was and has been

different. They did not go around tom-tomming that they were

Socialist Republics and Secular Democracies. YOU look into the

ills of our society too instead of just asking me to. ``

The only reason I was quoting Pakistan and Bangladesh was to show that it seems like the muslim community is distrustful of the Hindus. What makes you think there aren`t likes of Pakistani and Bangladeshi muslims in India? And are you also saying it is better to be anti-minority than trying to be secular. I don`t see why you have such fascination for Pakistan and Bangladesh when they actively persecute their minorities to the extent that the populations have reduced considerably.

`` 6. I have never blamed the British, so why are you telling me not

to. ``

The only reason I talked about the british is that we Indians have become mature enough to recognize our faults. If we wanted we could have kept blaming the British for all our ills. We are not doing that. I ask the muslim community to do the same.

`` 7. I appreciate your regret over the Babri Masjid demolition and the

fact that you accept your community’s mistake…how on earth

was it the mistake of the Muslims, on whose behalf you want me

to express remorse?

``

I am not saying muslims were at fault as far as Babri Masjid is concerned. I gave that example to indicate that I am ready to accept my community`s faults. I am asking the same of you. It won`t do to blame all the ills of muslims in India on the Hindu community.

`` I really don’t think many of you want to meet me even midway and

have formed very strong opinions. I can do nothing about it. If at all

you wish to know more about how I feel, you could check my reply

to macgupta at my other Board (#355). ``

What construes meeting you halfway. Agree to everything you say? We are going to have differences you know. You convince me if I am wrong. Anyway, I would like to say again that I have no intention of insulting you. I agree I migh have some preconceived notions. But, so might you. Isn`t that why we are having this discussion?