Bilal Ahmad December 14, 2000
#1 Posted by Baezaar on January 1, 2000 1:50:00 am
Let us forget about India.we `ve first to put our own house in order.If we are a functioning democracy,we can take care of all problems including India.While the army rule lasts,we will remain pariahs.So Pakistanis must wake up before it ` too late.Already a lot of time is lost.It ` small wonder that we are sinking into poverty/distress at the national level.Unemployment,Inflation,desperation is driving the people crazy and hopeless.Democracy is no magic wand but,at least,we will be in the midstream of the world movement towards development/advancement.we should let the people freely indulge in economic activity so that wealth can be produced in real terms.The state should only create conditions/infra-structure to facilitate such ventures and stop the reign of terror possible within the framework of our laws which are aggressively used by the mily regimes but the civilians also have not refrained from similar strong-arm tactics.
#3 Posted by ahmadb on January 1, 2000 8:39:01 pm
In response to Baezaar (Reply # 209 and 497) Part I
Dear Baezaar:
Obviously, you don’t like the intervention of army in politics. This is my position too. Similarly, you did not like General Musharraf’s speech. Me too. You also have aptly rebuffed the General for saying that his “parents did not teach him to sell the interest of the country.”
Baezaar, you maintain: “Pakistanis must understand the dangerous bind into which we have landed, resist it, mobilise and restore genuine civilian governance to qualify as free people in the world.” Please explain what your mean by “genuine civilian governance” and how it would help Pakistan and her people. I understand that you have something important to share with us. More later.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Baezaar:
Obviously, you don’t like the intervention of army in politics. This is my position too. Similarly, you did not like General Musharraf’s speech. Me too. You also have aptly rebuffed the General for saying that his “parents did not teach him to sell the interest of the country.”
Baezaar, you maintain: “Pakistanis must understand the dangerous bind into which we have landed, resist it, mobilise and restore genuine civilian governance to qualify as free people in the world.” Please explain what your mean by “genuine civilian governance” and how it would help Pakistan and her people. I understand that you have something important to share with us. More later.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#4 Posted by rsaxena on January 1, 2000 9:07:48 pm
Someone sent this link to me...it`s a pretty decent piece written by some Pakistani professor.
However, I think he gives India too much credit, particularly by calling it ``prosperous.`` We are far from prosperous.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/update-index.html
However, I think he gives India too much credit, particularly by calling it ``prosperous.`` We are far from prosperous.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/update-index.html
#5 Posted by shankar on January 1, 2000 9:07:48 pm
Tahmed 321,
#486
Thats what I really like about you. Ofcourse youre the other Ahmed! Youre posts are real gems (like #486). Youre few of the Chowk posters that I agree with 100% & sometimes I feel its so uncanny that our minds operate on the same wavelenght!
Bilalji`s (God bless his soul) posts on many occasions go right over my head! Mind you, he`s very patiently tried to rexplain his posts whenever I`ve complained. You see, the problem is mine, not his:). Another thing I`ve learnt on Chowk is that I`m not as intellectually gifted as I thought I was :))
#486
Thats what I really like about you. Ofcourse youre the other Ahmed! Youre posts are real gems (like #486). Youre few of the Chowk posters that I agree with 100% & sometimes I feel its so uncanny that our minds operate on the same wavelenght!
Bilalji`s (God bless his soul) posts on many occasions go right over my head! Mind you, he`s very patiently tried to rexplain his posts whenever I`ve complained. You see, the problem is mine, not his:). Another thing I`ve learnt on Chowk is that I`m not as intellectually gifted as I thought I was :))
#6 Posted by ahmadb on January 1, 2000 9:14:26 pm
LOCAL ELECTIONS IN BHALWAL DISTRICT
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/01/world/01PAKI.html?pagewanted=2
A women voter (Nargis) said: ``This is useless” and “These are trivialities.``
A farmer (Riaz Warriach) said that “the vote was a futile attempt to exclude from politics the parties of former Prime Ministers Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto: the Muslim League and the Pakistan People`s Party.” He maintained; ``I don`t think this experiment will be successful.`` According to the report, “a few other villagers nodded in agreement.”
Talking about the two leading political parties, Riaz Warriach said: “You cannot destroy them, and if you try to destroy them, it would destroy the country.``
Comment: Could anyone explain why people seem to have so low esteem for the local body elections/governance? Do they really understand Musharraf’s Local Body Plan 2000? Are they scared of the possible misuse of power by the local elite (old or new)? Or, what?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/01/world/01PAKI.html?pagewanted=2
A women voter (Nargis) said: ``This is useless” and “These are trivialities.``
A farmer (Riaz Warriach) said that “the vote was a futile attempt to exclude from politics the parties of former Prime Ministers Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto: the Muslim League and the Pakistan People`s Party.” He maintained; ``I don`t think this experiment will be successful.`` According to the report, “a few other villagers nodded in agreement.”
Talking about the two leading political parties, Riaz Warriach said: “You cannot destroy them, and if you try to destroy them, it would destroy the country.``
Comment: Could anyone explain why people seem to have so low esteem for the local body elections/governance? Do they really understand Musharraf’s Local Body Plan 2000? Are they scared of the possible misuse of power by the local elite (old or new)? Or, what?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#7 Posted by ahmadb on January 2, 2000 4:12:56 am
LOCAL BODIES: FOOD FOR THOUGHT
Decentralization of power is necessary for the effectiveness of governance in Pakistan. The recent local body elections draw our attention, as identified in the following editorial: (1) a less than enthusiastic overall response by the voters; (2) control of power by the local elite; and (3) the issue of women’s participation. The last two of these are not at all surprising.
Sincerely, Bilal
LB polls
The Nation, Editorial, January 2, 2001
WITH polls in 18 districts of the country held on Sunday, the first round of the local Bodies elections is over now. Two things go to the credit of the government and the Election Commission. First, the polls have been by and large peaceful. The use of money and muscle power to win the elections which has been a regular feature in such exercises in the past was mostly lacking this time. Second, the percentage of votes cast, reportedly between 35-50%, was larger than in the previous two elections. There are, however, a number of things which the government needs to ponder over. While the voter turn out in various districts might be interpreted as fair to good, the overall response was less than enthusiastic. In certain districts the percentage ranged between 20-25%. Keeping in view the fact that the government had initiated a costly motivation campaign, and a number of NGOs too had worked hard to educate voters, particularly female voters, many had expected much greater participation. As the devolution of power envisaged in the new system provides unprecedented powers to the Local Bodies, including fiscal autonomy and control over crucial government departments, it was not unnatural to hope that there would be much greater ardour this time on the part of the public. The lowering of the voter age to 18 years too was supposed to sufficiently add to the ratio of participation. Despite the fact that in certain districts the condition of possessing the ID cards was also withdrawn, the rate of participation failed to show an impressive rise. There were certain factors, no doubt, which could have contributed to dampening the voters` enthusiasm. Rains in certain districts of Punjab and NWFP could have discouraged some from going to the polling stations. Again, the new system requiring voters to cast five ballots was something the people were not used to. The Press had in fact drawn the attention of the government to the cumbersome process and had predicted that it was bound to affect the polling rate negatively. One can only hope that the government would do something to improve the system in the next round of elections.
The recent polls should draw the attention of the government to two serious issues. The first relates to the kind of leadership that the elections have thrown up. One of the driving ideas behind the devolution plan was to replace the traditional local elite with middle class leadership. It was held that the feudal elements and influential sections of society not only misappropriated funds meant for social development to enrich themselves but also had monopolized power to the detriment of the common man. The results of the recent elections would show that in a number of districts the old influential families have again got their nominees elected. Thus Legharies, Mazaris, Mehars, Jatois and others have now an impressive representation in the Councils. The fact that a fairly large number of councilors, Nazims and Naib Nazims have been elected unopposed is indicative of alliances between the traditional elite. The social pressure exerted by them has discouraged common man from filing his papers. Again, the government had claimed that the new system would provide greater representation to the minorities and women. The fact that minorities have boycotted the elections in Sindh must have caused embarrassment to the government. Similarly, if a report emanating from Larkana regarding women representation is correct, it would prove that government`s efforts to provide greater representation to women have not fully succeeded. According to the report, no candidate filed nomination papers on 42 seats reserved for women. Again, most of the seats went unopposed on account of pressure exerted by the influential groups. This needs to be looked into.
Decentralization of power is necessary for the effectiveness of governance in Pakistan. The recent local body elections draw our attention, as identified in the following editorial: (1) a less than enthusiastic overall response by the voters; (2) control of power by the local elite; and (3) the issue of women’s participation. The last two of these are not at all surprising.
Sincerely, Bilal
LB polls
The Nation, Editorial, January 2, 2001
WITH polls in 18 districts of the country held on Sunday, the first round of the local Bodies elections is over now. Two things go to the credit of the government and the Election Commission. First, the polls have been by and large peaceful. The use of money and muscle power to win the elections which has been a regular feature in such exercises in the past was mostly lacking this time. Second, the percentage of votes cast, reportedly between 35-50%, was larger than in the previous two elections. There are, however, a number of things which the government needs to ponder over. While the voter turn out in various districts might be interpreted as fair to good, the overall response was less than enthusiastic. In certain districts the percentage ranged between 20-25%. Keeping in view the fact that the government had initiated a costly motivation campaign, and a number of NGOs too had worked hard to educate voters, particularly female voters, many had expected much greater participation. As the devolution of power envisaged in the new system provides unprecedented powers to the Local Bodies, including fiscal autonomy and control over crucial government departments, it was not unnatural to hope that there would be much greater ardour this time on the part of the public. The lowering of the voter age to 18 years too was supposed to sufficiently add to the ratio of participation. Despite the fact that in certain districts the condition of possessing the ID cards was also withdrawn, the rate of participation failed to show an impressive rise. There were certain factors, no doubt, which could have contributed to dampening the voters` enthusiasm. Rains in certain districts of Punjab and NWFP could have discouraged some from going to the polling stations. Again, the new system requiring voters to cast five ballots was something the people were not used to. The Press had in fact drawn the attention of the government to the cumbersome process and had predicted that it was bound to affect the polling rate negatively. One can only hope that the government would do something to improve the system in the next round of elections.
The recent polls should draw the attention of the government to two serious issues. The first relates to the kind of leadership that the elections have thrown up. One of the driving ideas behind the devolution plan was to replace the traditional local elite with middle class leadership. It was held that the feudal elements and influential sections of society not only misappropriated funds meant for social development to enrich themselves but also had monopolized power to the detriment of the common man. The results of the recent elections would show that in a number of districts the old influential families have again got their nominees elected. Thus Legharies, Mazaris, Mehars, Jatois and others have now an impressive representation in the Councils. The fact that a fairly large number of councilors, Nazims and Naib Nazims have been elected unopposed is indicative of alliances between the traditional elite. The social pressure exerted by them has discouraged common man from filing his papers. Again, the government had claimed that the new system would provide greater representation to the minorities and women. The fact that minorities have boycotted the elections in Sindh must have caused embarrassment to the government. Similarly, if a report emanating from Larkana regarding women representation is correct, it would prove that government`s efforts to provide greater representation to women have not fully succeeded. According to the report, no candidate filed nomination papers on 42 seats reserved for women. Again, most of the seats went unopposed on account of pressure exerted by the influential groups. This needs to be looked into.
#8 Posted by ahmadb on January 2, 2000 4:39:22 am
DEMOCRACY, ISLAM, AND THE RELIGIOUS RHETORIC
Baeezar is not the only Pakistani citizen to criticize General Musharraf for his recent speech. Here are two letters to the Editor (Dawn, January 2, 2001), where the writers have reacted to the General’s religious rhetoric.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. Mohammad Hossein Haikal’s biography of prophet Mohmmad in Urdu (translated from Arabic) was introduced to me as a text by one of my Islamic (read Muslim) history professor in 1961. A book worth reading.
The right to rule
THE claim made by the Chief Executive in his recent address to the nation to justify his rule as flowing from the will of Allah to Whom alone he was responsible for his actions smacked of the same divine right as invoked by the late Gen. Ziaul Haq in his addresses to the nation.
A historian of Islam, the late Hossein Haikal writes in his biography of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that the first caliph in his address to the Muslims had said that he had been made Amir over the Muslims but he did not think himself to be superior to them and if he walked on the straight path people should help him and if he went wrong, the people should set him right. Only 123 years afterwards, the Abbasid Caliph Al-Mansoor addressed the people: ``Allah has made me ruler over you (albeit by force of arms) and as such I will set you right according to the will of Allah.`` He deviated from the democratic ethos of Islam and claimed divine right to rule the people.
It appears we Muslims have still not got out of the rut of Malookiat when our rulers pose to be responsible to Allah alone and not to the people of Pakistan through whose elected representatives the State had to exercise the authority as a sacred trust of Allah over the entire universe according to the constitution. It is a sad day for Pakistan that we still profess the worn-out divine right rejected by the entire civilized world, as also by Islam.
DR M. YAQOOB BHATTI, Lahore
Divine help
IN his address to the nation the other day, Gen Pervez Musharraf laid much stress on one point - he had a mission to accomplish and he would do everything in his power to accomplish that mission. He went on to say that he would not leave until the completion of his mission. He also stated that God Almighty had helped him acquire the position that he was in and surely he would get divine guidance to accomplish his mission.
Conversely, it could mean that the three Generals - Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan and Ziaul Haq - were assigned to rule this country by the Devil because they failed miserably to accomplish their missions.
Ironically, for 53 years, all those who occupied the driving seat claimed their ascendancy to the top slot by dint of divine help. The late Gen Ziaul Haq kept on repeating that he was ruling the country through God`s will, and power be would relinquished only when He willed so.
Ultimately, the Almighty answered the prayers of the faithful and ordered his exit. I would appeal to the Chief Executive not to forget the idiom: Man proposes and God disposes.
K. A. WAHID BUTT, Lahore
Baeezar is not the only Pakistani citizen to criticize General Musharraf for his recent speech. Here are two letters to the Editor (Dawn, January 2, 2001), where the writers have reacted to the General’s religious rhetoric.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. Mohammad Hossein Haikal’s biography of prophet Mohmmad in Urdu (translated from Arabic) was introduced to me as a text by one of my Islamic (read Muslim) history professor in 1961. A book worth reading.
The right to rule
THE claim made by the Chief Executive in his recent address to the nation to justify his rule as flowing from the will of Allah to Whom alone he was responsible for his actions smacked of the same divine right as invoked by the late Gen. Ziaul Haq in his addresses to the nation.
A historian of Islam, the late Hossein Haikal writes in his biography of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that the first caliph in his address to the Muslims had said that he had been made Amir over the Muslims but he did not think himself to be superior to them and if he walked on the straight path people should help him and if he went wrong, the people should set him right. Only 123 years afterwards, the Abbasid Caliph Al-Mansoor addressed the people: ``Allah has made me ruler over you (albeit by force of arms) and as such I will set you right according to the will of Allah.`` He deviated from the democratic ethos of Islam and claimed divine right to rule the people.
It appears we Muslims have still not got out of the rut of Malookiat when our rulers pose to be responsible to Allah alone and not to the people of Pakistan through whose elected representatives the State had to exercise the authority as a sacred trust of Allah over the entire universe according to the constitution. It is a sad day for Pakistan that we still profess the worn-out divine right rejected by the entire civilized world, as also by Islam.
DR M. YAQOOB BHATTI, Lahore
Divine help
IN his address to the nation the other day, Gen Pervez Musharraf laid much stress on one point - he had a mission to accomplish and he would do everything in his power to accomplish that mission. He went on to say that he would not leave until the completion of his mission. He also stated that God Almighty had helped him acquire the position that he was in and surely he would get divine guidance to accomplish his mission.
Conversely, it could mean that the three Generals - Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan and Ziaul Haq - were assigned to rule this country by the Devil because they failed miserably to accomplish their missions.
Ironically, for 53 years, all those who occupied the driving seat claimed their ascendancy to the top slot by dint of divine help. The late Gen Ziaul Haq kept on repeating that he was ruling the country through God`s will, and power be would relinquished only when He willed so.
Ultimately, the Almighty answered the prayers of the faithful and ordered his exit. I would appeal to the Chief Executive not to forget the idiom: Man proposes and God disposes.
K. A. WAHID BUTT, Lahore
#9 Posted by shankar on January 2, 2000 2:06:38 pm
Bilalji,
http://www.dawn.com/2001/01/02/top3.htm
After reading the above article in today`s dawn (quoting the HRC report), I was absolutely shocked at the depths of immorality charged on the top military echelon in 71!! Sounds like their livestyles were no better than the most decadent Roman emperors!!
What is more damning is that the article even published the names of women (many of them wives of prominent military & govt officials) who allegedly consorted with these men. My God! Many of these people are probably still alive & living in Pakistan! How will they show their face to society, esp in a conservative one like Pakistan?! What effect will it have on their children to have their parents shamed in such a way?
Seems to me the HRC report went on allegations. What if those allegations are proven wrong? Who is going to apologise to those whose reputation is in the mud?!
It seems like one of the reason that the Pak govt kept this report quiet was the absolute scandal it could cause in Pakistan! If an average Pakistani reads this, how much trust/respect will he/she have of the military? If it could happen 30 years ago, why could`nt it happen today?
If there is indeed a scandal, does anybody think that the fundos will claim that both military & civilian leaders have destroyed Pakistan; so the only hope for Pakistan is to adopt a fundamentalist Islamic nation to save it?
http://www.dawn.com/2001/01/02/top3.htm
After reading the above article in today`s dawn (quoting the HRC report), I was absolutely shocked at the depths of immorality charged on the top military echelon in 71!! Sounds like their livestyles were no better than the most decadent Roman emperors!!
What is more damning is that the article even published the names of women (many of them wives of prominent military & govt officials) who allegedly consorted with these men. My God! Many of these people are probably still alive & living in Pakistan! How will they show their face to society, esp in a conservative one like Pakistan?! What effect will it have on their children to have their parents shamed in such a way?
Seems to me the HRC report went on allegations. What if those allegations are proven wrong? Who is going to apologise to those whose reputation is in the mud?!
It seems like one of the reason that the Pak govt kept this report quiet was the absolute scandal it could cause in Pakistan! If an average Pakistani reads this, how much trust/respect will he/she have of the military? If it could happen 30 years ago, why could`nt it happen today?
If there is indeed a scandal, does anybody think that the fundos will claim that both military & civilian leaders have destroyed Pakistan; so the only hope for Pakistan is to adopt a fundamentalist Islamic nation to save it?
#10 Posted by shankar on January 2, 2000 2:06:38 pm
Addendum,
In that article it is alleged that Noor Jehan was Yayha Khan`s mistress. Is that the same famous singer who died recently? Please forgive my ignorance about Pakistan`s cultural icons--I sincerely hope its not!
In that article it is alleged that Noor Jehan was Yayha Khan`s mistress. Is that the same famous singer who died recently? Please forgive my ignorance about Pakistan`s cultural icons--I sincerely hope its not!
#11 Posted by ahmadb on January 2, 2000 3:39:20 pm
In response to shankar (Reply # 505 & 506)
Dear Shankar:
The history of Pakistan is full of the stories of the kind identified by the HRC report. There is nothing new.
The current regime has not shown much guts to decalassify the entire report and make it really public through its publication in the newspapers. The people of Pakistan have a right to know about the character and role of their so-called leaders and the power elite (and their dealings with foreign countries and their elite).
There is only one Noor Jahan singer in Pakistan, as far as I know. General Rani -- the title speaks for itself -- was much discussed in the 1970s.
Jammat-e-Islami enjoys much support among a good number of soldiers and junior officers due to the life-style of the power elite (within and without the military). Let us wait and see the reaction of JI.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. The focus of the report should have been a historical analysis of the factors which led to the downfall/independence of erstwhile East Pakistan. The role of the army, however, needs to studied in light of the overall social, economic, political, and strategic context of East Pakistan vis a vis Pakistan and India. A careful reading of the entire report seems necessary.
Dear Shankar:
The history of Pakistan is full of the stories of the kind identified by the HRC report. There is nothing new.
The current regime has not shown much guts to decalassify the entire report and make it really public through its publication in the newspapers. The people of Pakistan have a right to know about the character and role of their so-called leaders and the power elite (and their dealings with foreign countries and their elite).
There is only one Noor Jahan singer in Pakistan, as far as I know. General Rani -- the title speaks for itself -- was much discussed in the 1970s.
Jammat-e-Islami enjoys much support among a good number of soldiers and junior officers due to the life-style of the power elite (within and without the military). Let us wait and see the reaction of JI.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. The focus of the report should have been a historical analysis of the factors which led to the downfall/independence of erstwhile East Pakistan. The role of the army, however, needs to studied in light of the overall social, economic, political, and strategic context of East Pakistan vis a vis Pakistan and India. A careful reading of the entire report seems necessary.
#12 Posted by ylh on January 2, 2000 4:36:50 pm
Shankar,
Let the dead rest in peace. Have you no shame?
Yasser
Let the dead rest in peace. Have you no shame?
Yasser
#13 Posted by tahmed321 on January 2, 2000 4:36:50 pm
Shankar #506 The female associated with Gen. Yahya is a Ms. Rani, commonly referred to as General Rani. I dont believe Noor Jehan had anything to do with him, but maybe I am wrong. Anyway, both of them are now part of history. Like all other military men and heads of state, Yahya and his deeds/misdeeds will become increasingly irrelevent and uninteresting and will be forgotten over time. On the other hand, the voice of Noor Jehan will live on and will continue to enrich lives as long as there are people capable of appreciating beauty and melody.
#14 Posted by fairdinkum on January 2, 2000 11:10:44 pm
Shankar, Ylh, tahmed321
History is a vital source of learning. It is the starting point for us to understand our present, our future, and ourselves.
HRC report is a vital historical document for people of Pakistan. There are many lessons we can learn from this document. Also, it has shattered many myths … among them the myth of the so-called “only institution with integrity” i.e. military. Now we know that our military can be (as it was in 1970-71) just as corrupt, inept, and lethargic as the rest of our ruling elite. And people like Yahya Khan or Gen. Niazi etc. will, and should always be remembered for the criminal negligence in the performance of their duty, and their unpatriotic behaviour… Has anyone forgotten Mir Jafar of Deccan or Sadiq of Bengal? Don’t we know what happens to nations who don’t learn from their past?
As for Noor Jahan, her personal life did not impact on her performance as an artist, and she did not indulge in activities detrimental to the security of her beloved country. She did her job to the best of her abilities… Irrespective of her personal (sex) life, she will always be respected for her gigantic contributions in Pakistani art, and entertainment industry. I would not have any problem with the sex lives of any General (past or present) if it didn’t/doesn’t interfere with their duty.
The most important thing HRC report highlights is the fact that when matters of national politics/economy/national security/greater national interests are decided by military to the exclusion of rest of the civil society, the results are certain to be a total disaster. We didn’t learn this lesson after 1971 because we were largely unaware of HRC report and its findings… in the dusty shelves of GHQ or wherever it was kept, it contained a glance at Pakistan’s tomorrow… but we didn’t know… and it is for this reason that military regimes have been able to inflict more wounds…
It is vital that ordinary citizens of Pakistan are made aware of this important historical document. Yes, we must move on, but we must learn our lesson first…
History is a vital source of learning. It is the starting point for us to understand our present, our future, and ourselves.
HRC report is a vital historical document for people of Pakistan. There are many lessons we can learn from this document. Also, it has shattered many myths … among them the myth of the so-called “only institution with integrity” i.e. military. Now we know that our military can be (as it was in 1970-71) just as corrupt, inept, and lethargic as the rest of our ruling elite. And people like Yahya Khan or Gen. Niazi etc. will, and should always be remembered for the criminal negligence in the performance of their duty, and their unpatriotic behaviour… Has anyone forgotten Mir Jafar of Deccan or Sadiq of Bengal? Don’t we know what happens to nations who don’t learn from their past?
As for Noor Jahan, her personal life did not impact on her performance as an artist, and she did not indulge in activities detrimental to the security of her beloved country. She did her job to the best of her abilities… Irrespective of her personal (sex) life, she will always be respected for her gigantic contributions in Pakistani art, and entertainment industry. I would not have any problem with the sex lives of any General (past or present) if it didn’t/doesn’t interfere with their duty.
The most important thing HRC report highlights is the fact that when matters of national politics/economy/national security/greater national interests are decided by military to the exclusion of rest of the civil society, the results are certain to be a total disaster. We didn’t learn this lesson after 1971 because we were largely unaware of HRC report and its findings… in the dusty shelves of GHQ or wherever it was kept, it contained a glance at Pakistan’s tomorrow… but we didn’t know… and it is for this reason that military regimes have been able to inflict more wounds…
It is vital that ordinary citizens of Pakistan are made aware of this important historical document. Yes, we must move on, but we must learn our lesson first…
#15 Posted by shankar on January 2, 2000 11:11:39 pm
Bilalji,
I dont mean to sound pious or sanctimonious. Seems like Pakistanis dont like to talk too loudly about the sexual shenanigans of the national leaders. Its perfectly OK to talk about which leader stole how much money. Oh but forget talking about who is trying to get into whoose pants! I`m glad the HRC was blunt enough to break that pious bubble.
The US made a big deal about the Monica Lewinski affair because it diminished the office of the Presidency. I agreed with the media that it WAS a big deal. The President`s responsibility is to be a role model for the nation & charcter (fidelity) IS a factor. Eventhough I was forced with the very embarrassing task of trying to give a reply to my 10 year old daughter`s very innocent question ``daddy, what`s oral sex?!``, I`m VERY proud the country raked him over the coals.
Just because a person leads the nation doesnt mean he should be above the law & certain moral values the country holds as dear. And whats this about army officers ``lending`` their wives to their superiors? And Noor Jehan, that most revered cultural icon of Pakistan; Pakistan`s something-e-something was Yahya`s mistress?!!!
I do hope scout & Farangi_Kush read that report. Too bad that mullah`s on vacation. On the other thread we Indians have recieved a pious sermon from them about how decadent the Indian culture is & how good Pakistanis should insulate themselves from such impieties! Not to mention that the great F_K has slammed the West`s immorality more times than I can remember!
O Yeah!! And they have the unmitigated gaul to think these things dont happen in God-fearing Pakistan! Heck if the leaders & icons can do this, how can you piously say that this doesnt happen with commonfolk in Pakistan. In fact, there was an article in TFT that very nicely described the sexual escapades of their servants.
Mind you, I`m not saying these things dont happen in India. Of course they do! The only difference between East & West is at least in the West they have the maturity to openly acknowlege it. Easterners pretend they are very pious by sweeping everything very conveniently under the carpet!
That F_K better stick to just quoting Iqbal! If he starts anymore about Western immorality, I`d love to dunk his sanctimonious face into this post. HYPOCRITE!
I dont mean to sound pious or sanctimonious. Seems like Pakistanis dont like to talk too loudly about the sexual shenanigans of the national leaders. Its perfectly OK to talk about which leader stole how much money. Oh but forget talking about who is trying to get into whoose pants! I`m glad the HRC was blunt enough to break that pious bubble.
The US made a big deal about the Monica Lewinski affair because it diminished the office of the Presidency. I agreed with the media that it WAS a big deal. The President`s responsibility is to be a role model for the nation & charcter (fidelity) IS a factor. Eventhough I was forced with the very embarrassing task of trying to give a reply to my 10 year old daughter`s very innocent question ``daddy, what`s oral sex?!``, I`m VERY proud the country raked him over the coals.
Just because a person leads the nation doesnt mean he should be above the law & certain moral values the country holds as dear. And whats this about army officers ``lending`` their wives to their superiors? And Noor Jehan, that most revered cultural icon of Pakistan; Pakistan`s something-e-something was Yahya`s mistress?!!!
I do hope scout & Farangi_Kush read that report. Too bad that mullah`s on vacation. On the other thread we Indians have recieved a pious sermon from them about how decadent the Indian culture is & how good Pakistanis should insulate themselves from such impieties! Not to mention that the great F_K has slammed the West`s immorality more times than I can remember!
O Yeah!! And they have the unmitigated gaul to think these things dont happen in God-fearing Pakistan! Heck if the leaders & icons can do this, how can you piously say that this doesnt happen with commonfolk in Pakistan. In fact, there was an article in TFT that very nicely described the sexual escapades of their servants.
Mind you, I`m not saying these things dont happen in India. Of course they do! The only difference between East & West is at least in the West they have the maturity to openly acknowlege it. Easterners pretend they are very pious by sweeping everything very conveniently under the carpet!
That F_K better stick to just quoting Iqbal! If he starts anymore about Western immorality, I`d love to dunk his sanctimonious face into this post. HYPOCRITE!
#16 Posted by ahmadb on January 3, 2000 12:02:24 am
In response to shankar (Reply # 511)
Dear Shankar:
Your statement: ``I dont mean to sound pious or sanctimonious. Seems like Pakistanis dont like to talk too loudly about the sexual shenanigans of the national leaders. Its perfectly OK to talk about which leader stole how much money.``
My reply: The sexual shenanigans of the national leaders are well-known to the people of Pakistan. People also know a little more than that. People also know about the adultrous/rapist behavior of other local, regional,and national elite. Why they don`t react? For me, this is a researchable topic. Perhaps, the most important factor is the nature of social relations between the powerful (dominant) and the powerless (subordinate).
The human rights movement in Pakistan need more volunteers like Hina Jilani and Asma Jehangir. With time, this movement will bring much need change. I am sure about it.
The people of Pakistan need to realize that they are the real source of power. Things will start changing once the people realize their power and start asserting it. People need to realize that survival and freedom are not mutually exclusive categories. In fact, they a mutually constitutive categories.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Shankar:
Your statement: ``I dont mean to sound pious or sanctimonious. Seems like Pakistanis dont like to talk too loudly about the sexual shenanigans of the national leaders. Its perfectly OK to talk about which leader stole how much money.``
My reply: The sexual shenanigans of the national leaders are well-known to the people of Pakistan. People also know a little more than that. People also know about the adultrous/rapist behavior of other local, regional,and national elite. Why they don`t react? For me, this is a researchable topic. Perhaps, the most important factor is the nature of social relations between the powerful (dominant) and the powerless (subordinate).
The human rights movement in Pakistan need more volunteers like Hina Jilani and Asma Jehangir. With time, this movement will bring much need change. I am sure about it.
The people of Pakistan need to realize that they are the real source of power. Things will start changing once the people realize their power and start asserting it. People need to realize that survival and freedom are not mutually exclusive categories. In fact, they a mutually constitutive categories.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
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