Give Peace a Chance in Kashmir

Re: FZ

``My views on Pandits go not only against “mainstream Hindu India” but also against the prevalent belief in almost every media.``

Isn`t that the purpose of your writing? To play to some claim to have ``extreme anti-establishment`` views? You know, kinda like teenagers rebelling for the sake of rebelling so at least they`ll get attention?

(You never cease to crack me up...if Times of India hadn`t wished its readers Eid, you`d be here complaining...now that it has, you`re still complaining because, out of paranoia, you doubt it`s sincerity)

Farzana
As you can see, I am back to treating you like any other Indian :).

ali1 #72 Farzana #71
``but I don`t understand (the passport bit) what you are talking about``

More sanctimonious hypocrisy. Didnot TNT provide `a majority` of Indian Muslims with Pakistani passports? For those you call `left behind` you want provide guns? Sounds less like TNT and more like my favourite `dispossessed Mughal theory`.

I put words in your mouth? Take a moment to read your own post:
`` none of you i.e. the Hindus, has so far condemned the victimization of an Indian Muslim for expressing her views. I think you are as happy as the bigot who did the sacking``

On the other hand you want to put guns..
References to beef donot do the needful in insulting me or my `religious` sensibilities, btw, because unfortunately for you, where I grew up Hindus traditionally eat beef. Try something else. And I need to point out if I retaliate in kind the howls of horror that will follow will make me a `bigot` and responsible for the entire sorry history of the subcontinent and the `hurt psyche` of people like yourself and Ms Versey.

Anyway. Re your and Ms Versey`s various views, which seem interchangeable. First it was the deadly insult of declaring a ceasefire during Ramzan, then it was the hypocrisy of hosting Iftar parties, now it is the prejudice and discourtesy which prevents TOI from wishing everyone on Eid. I donot know what TOI does or doesnot do on Indian festivals, including Eid, but going by the above, I`m suspecting, if they HAD wished their readers happy Eid, every Hindu would have gotten the stick, anyway. I donot care to take responsibility for every hurt felt by Ms Versey in her social life as a Muslim and donot choose to see prejudice everywhere she chooses to point. Life is full of worse hurts for everyone, including Indian Muslims, on their identity, on their security, on their options in life.

Re Indian Muslim issues, some material, though not enough, is available from elsewhere which provides viewpoints and information which increase understanding. I regret that these days at least in print and in politics, it seems too much to expect possible solutions to be discussed or investigated based on assumptions of good faith among Hindus and Muslims.

In contrast, as far as Ms Versey and yourself are concerned, forget good faith or solutions, not even clarity can be expected on what are the issues. Take the Masjid issue. Without doubt, the demolition of the Babri Masjid has become a potent symbol contributing to the real and perceived insecurity of Indian Muslims among all Indians. Unfortunately, such an incident cannot be reversed and the vast majority of Indians including chowk Indians, were not present or in a position to act on their true convictions in preventing it or facilitating it. The fact remains we have to move forward and take responsibility of acting on our convictions even though its after the event.

But given that such an incident occured, neither yourself nor Ms Versey seems to present any aspect of any Hindu-Muslim issue except general rage at the existence of Hindus, a circumstance which going solely by the interacts here, at best results in unrelenting discrimination and prejudice and at worst in a general blood bath. No other delination of problems, no other culmination, no possiblity or route to problem-solving seems worth considering. There seems nowhere to go beyond such a point of argument (apparently not even to Pakistan), what remains for others [the `Hindus`] to say or do except perhaps offer sympathies at their own existence :) and then perhaps go and buy their own guns?

Sadhana

sadna # 67

[``The mention of passports shook you, it looks like, it doesnot pay to expect someone to really follow through on their rhetoric vis-a-vis TNT.``]

Maybe its my dumb Muslim brain as gymnosophist would say, or my memory is weak due to eating too much beef but I don`t understand (the passport bit) what you are talking about. Once I do, I would be more than pleased to follow through on my rhetoric.

[``Moreover, donot ask me to answer for others on this forum just because of THEIR `religion`, and donot expect me to refrain from criticizing her views and her attitudes like I would, any other Indian. ``]

You are a master of putting words in other people`s mouth. When exactly did I ask you or expect you to do the above?

macgupta (Reply #62):

Isn’t it precious that almost everyone seems to have had extensive conversations with Kashmiri Pandits and can tout their version of events as authentic, whereas I have no right to express an opinion, based on certain facts? If I recall, you had at one point in time suggested that we ought to discuss various issues together. You were perhaps the only one who took the time to look for my other work. What happened then? Please do not forget that I am doing a journalist’s job, not an activist’s. Writing is my only means of communicating – I am NOT associated with any religious/secular organization, and have no intention of doing so.

You say, “Shed your persecution complex -- I think ylh has suffered more abuse than anyone else on these boards, but he keeps on coming back.” If you are referring to my post on my two Boards that I would refrain from personally replying, then I think I had made it clear: I had nothing to add to that discussion. Regarding “persecution complex”, while you are entitled to your opinion, I do not see it as a valid accusation. I have always made an attempt to clarify/argue. And if all you want is for me to keep coming back, then here I am.



Farzana

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Krashid (Reply # 64):

I guess one has to only reach out to other human beings – that constitutes faith. Anyway, thanks for sharing. Yes, Spinoza is my man. So are Nietzsche and Gibran. BTW, have you read the Sufi poems of Ayatollah Khomeini?

Farzana

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Ali1 (Reply # 61& 66):

Although I am touched by your concern, the points you have raised, even if pertinent up to a degree, is not how I would like to see the issue. I know I have been called all manner of names on this forum, but that is because the posters at Chowk, and that includes you, have only got to see what I have written here. I would not like to see the silencing of my voice as a Hindu-Muslim fight. I am serious. My views on Pandits go not only against “mainstream Hindu India” but also against the prevalent belief in almost every media. (Ras himself does not agree with me.)

Communalism is only one aspect of what has happedn with me. Let me remind you that a rank opportunist cannot be deemed a “bigot” simply because he may not be committed to any ideology, except saving his own skin. No, I cannot sue anyone. They work on whims and fancies. (I have written an ‘expose’ on the subject in the Jan issue of ‘Gentleman’ magazine; unfortunately, they do not have a web edition.) But I must say that the best compliment I have received is from a person from the RSS who told me, “The reason I like you is that we know where we stand with you. If it has to be put in so many words, then you are an honourable enemy.” I think that is vindication enough.

That does not mean we are not a prejudiced society. ‘The Times of India’, in fact, did not even have the courtesy of wishing its readers on Eid this time. (Though I would be quite happy if we dropped these gestures altogether.)

Re Sadna’s reply to you (#67), I agree with her that she should not be made answerable for Hindu responses on Chowk. She does not agree with my views in her personal capacity. By the same token, I would appreciate it if she accepted that I DO NOT “speak exclusively on behalf” of my co-religionists. The two articles here happen to be subjects that were a typically journalistic need to comment on a topical subject. That they come across as palpably ‘Muslim’ points of view has to do with the nature of one’s views. What would have been the reaction had I spoken about insurgency in the North East instead of Kashmir? Everyone else seems more obsessed with my religion than I am. An Arun Shourie quoting shairs is said to have eclectic tastes; when I do so, it is seen as cultural conditioning. The statement, “and do not expect me to refrain from criticizing her views and her attitudes like I would, any other Indian,” is perfectly in keeping with the spirit of this forum. May I expect similar standards where my opinions are concerned?

Now for a small sermon: would you consider not using terms like “dhoti-clad”, “langoor” etc? It takes away from the seriousness of what you are saying and does not really demolish anyone. As for Kalashnikovs, I can see Ras picking one up and aiming it straight at me!

So I better run…like those poor Pandits (I too join the ranks of the ‘homeless’ now, don’t I?)

Farzana

RE: shankar # 69

http://chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=rsiddiqui_dec3000&n=50#reply18

http://chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=rsiddiqui_dec3000&n=10#reply55

this will tell you the story.

I hope you and other Indians will find the courage to write to the bigot who is the editor of ``that publication`` and force hime to take back his unjust decision.

{{- the Hindu editor announces this accomplishment on chowk, ostensibly he is pleased that he has dealt with a muslim who had forgotten her place.}}

I think I missed this. Farzana (or anybody else), could you please enlighten me as to who this editor was & where in Chowk did this happen ?--so I can come to my own conclusions.

Thanks, in advance.

About Ms. Farzana Versey :

Is it not true that the owner of Midday is a Muslim? I am not so sure, but I thought reading somewhere that he is a Muslim...

If that is so, then it is indeed interesting to hear that her coloumn had been dropped. Does that mean the editor ( who, as someone has mentioned earlier, is a Hindu) is more powerful than the owner? Can anyone fill me with details?

Thanx and cheers,

ali1 #66
The mention of passports shook you, it looks like, it doesnot pay to expect someone to really follow through on their rhetoric vis-a-vis TNT.

Re Ms Versey, I have no idea about the reasons behind the incident you mention, actually I understood it to predate the appearance of her recent two articles on chowk by a month. I for one didnot approve of the manner in which such a fact was revealed on chowk and wrote on another thread that I hoped Ms Versey would continue to contribute and interact on chowk. Such an opinion has nothing to do with her `religion`. In fact she is the one who speaks exclusively on behalf of her co-religionists and noone else. Moreover, donot ask me to answer for others on this forum just because of THEIR `religion`, and donot expect me to refrain from criticizing her views and her attitudes like I would, any other Indian.

Sadhana

sadna # 63

Correct me if the following is not accurate.

- an indian muslim journalist (Ms Versey) posts her articles on chowk. Her opinions are different from mainstream Hindu India. e.g. her view on pandits etc.

- she is abused by almost all the Hindu interactors on this forum (mad cow, go to Afghanistan etc.)

- she is `sacked` by the Hindu editor of a publication she has been contributing to for 11 years.

- the Hindu editor announces this accomplishment on chowk, ostensibly he is pleased that he has dealt with a muslim who had forgotten her place.

- none of you i.e. the Hindus, has so far condemned the victimization of an Indian Muslim for expressing her views. I think you are as happy as the bigot who did the sacking.

Peace in Kashmir? How can there be peace in Kashmir when even a Hurriyat leader has to be provided with security by India? Why did he need security? Well, after returning from Pakistan he went on a tirade against Jihadi militants/terrorists. If the past is any indicator, the Pakistani terrorists will not think twice about blowing him up, as they have any MUSLIM who has spoken against them. So much for Muslim brotherhood.

________________________________________

Lone gets Z security

Mukhtar Ahmad in Srinagar

``A leading light of the separatist conglomerate Abdul Ghani Lone has been accorded Z security by the National Conference Government.

Lone had launched a tirade against militants, especially foreigners, after his return from Pakistan last month.

A top police source said that a high level meeting in Jammu on Friday was convened by the state intelligence chief, to asses the threat perception of the senior leader of the All Party Hurriyat Conference. The meeting was attended by senior police and state security officials.

``He has been categorised as a Z security person, like ministers of the National Conference,`` said the official.

Lone will immediately be provided a bullet proof car and two bullet proof escorts.

Security at his Rawalpora residence has also been beefed up.

State security is rushing another platoon of the state armed police to his residence. The Rawalpora residence of the Peoples Conference leader is presently guarded by armed policemen.

Sources said that it will now depend on Lone whether he would like the state armed police or the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force.

The state authorities were worried about his security after his recent statements. ``

Farzana #55

I did not say to you. Believe in religion.

I said believe in God.

Once God is with you, you will overcome all the odds.

Not in the proper sense. But you can be a kind of atheist in your approach and still have firm belief in God.

More like Spinoza or Averroes.

ali1 #61
``However, it also keeps the TNT alive and that gives me hope.........130 million Klashnikovs anyone? ``

And I thought TNT was about passports?

btw, I remember clearly your interactions on chowk with another Indian Muslim who made the mistake of being a Ahmediya in your presence. Going by your sentiments expressed then, you definately need fewer than 130 million guns, or you may just land in hot water.

Sadhana

Dear Ms. Versey :

The Kashmiri Pandits that I have had conversations with all state that they were driven out of the valley by terrorists. When some tried to go back, they were warned by their Muslim neighbors that they would be inevitable targets for the terrorists.

Shed your persecution complex -- I think ylh has suffered more abuse than anyone else on these boards, but he keeps on coming back.

-Arun Gupta

Ms. Versey #55, #59

Thanks for responding. Now I understand why so few Indian christians or muslims interact on chowk: Retribution can be swift and painful.

However, it also keeps the TNT alive and that gives me hope.........130 million Klashnikovs anyone?

Again, I thank God and Jinnah for Pakistan!

Farzana, can`t you sue the dhoti clads at that publication?

Ras

#58

The BJP is just about as sincere about making peace as the L-e-T is. This concept about ``peace with honor`` is a farce. It means different things to different groups. There will be a big show about peace talks. They will inevitably break down & each side will blame the other about insincerety.

Unfortunately the divisions between Indians & Pakistanis are just about as deep & irreconcilable as the Isrealis & Palestinians. I just hope that violence wont erupt to the point of an all out war.