Give Peace a Chance in Kashmir

Kashmir: Musharraf`s many dilemmas

Feb. 8, 2002

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/DB09Df01.html

By Muhammad Rafique

ISLAMABAD - A startling statement by a prominent Sindhi politician and spiritual leader with hundreds and thousands of followers has presented a new dilemma to embattled President General Pervez Musharraf, who is locked in a dangerous standoff with neighboring India over the disputed and divided Kashmir.

On the eve of Solidarity Day with Kashmiris on February 5, the Peer Pagaro Shah Mardan Shah, the spiritual head of the Hur tribesmen and a known supporter of the military in the key Sindh province, shocked both the nation and the military by declaring that the Kashmir Valley never belonged to Pakistan and ``it never will``.

Although the military regime did not directly respond to the Peer`s statement, several pro-Musharraf politicians, mainly belonging to the Pakistan Muslim League party aspiring to form the bulwark of the ``real democracy`` Musharraf is planning to introduce in Pakistan after the upcoming October elections, condemned the statement as ``unpatriotic``.

The Peer Pagaro heads his own faction of the Muslim League, which is divided into half a dozen or more factions, and the military is trying desparately to unite them in order to pick a prime ministerial candidate from among them, by helping it to win the elections. Musharraf himself will become an all-powerful president under the new dispensation, after dumping the ``sham democracy`` under which Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif twice became prime ministers.

The Peer Pagaro, who helped General Zia ul Haq topple prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in a coup in 1977, has always been close to the generals, not because of any political skills or popularity among the masses but simply because he commands the unalloyed loyalty of the hundreds of thousands of Hur tribesmen who live in the deserts of Sindh, bordering India, and who have always formed the second line of defense for the Pakistani regular troops in the soft belly of Pakistan.

Most observers say that if and when the war breaks out in the context of the present standoff between the two nuclear-armed adversaries, India will attack from the same very region. In both the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, the Hurs of the Peer (the hereditary spirtual head) fought side-by-side with the Pakistani troops in that strategic area and they will again need the Peer`s help if the war breaks out.

Reliable political sources have told Asia Times Online that the government has sent intermediaries to mollify the Peer to keep him on their side. The Peer, according to sources, wants a nominee from the province of Sindh to become the prime minister of Pakistan under the ``real democracy`` which Musharraf wants to introduce after amending the 1973 prime ministerial constitution patterned on the Westminster model, which all military dictators in Pakistan have spurned and amended to enable them to wield real power.

Musharraf has constituted the National Reconstruction Bureau (NRB) under a retired lieutenant-general to amend the constitution, which he is allowed to do as the Supreme Court of Pakistan validated his coup until October 2002. The NRB is now busy making the amendments which Musharraf plans to have validated by the new parliament, the seats of which he has already increased by about 30 percent. The NRB is also making provisions for Musharraf to handpick about 50 technocrats to strengthen his hand.

Musharraf has also increased to 70 the quota of seats allocated for women. These will be elected on the basis of proportional representation while the regular candidates will be elected along party lines on the first-past-the-post basis.

But Musharraf is determined to keep both Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto, both of whom are in exile, out of the electoral arena. Bhutto is now in Washington to lobby for support from the right quarters to allow her to return to Pakistan to participate in the elections. She has even said that she is ready to become prime minister under the new Musharraf dispensation, and has supported his move to crack down on Islamic jihadi organizations. But Musharraf has stuck to his stand that he will never allow either Sharif or Bhutto to contest elections while he is in power, and he is determined to remain in power even beyond the permitted five years from October of this year, unless the fates or the Americans intervene, according to independent political analysts.

And the general has removed far from the scene all the mullahs who can and are determined to muster street power to force the general out and install another general more to their liking.

Politicians other than the Peer of Pagaro are eyeing the key positions, including the prime ministrial post, and they are looking to the Americans more than the ruling junta because they perceive that power in Pakistan comes via Washington. Meanwhile, the Americans, especially the very active American Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain, are keeping a close eye on who might become the next prime minister.

One of the current favorites is Mehmood Kasuri, a lawyer from Lahore who runs a string of schools throughout Pakistan. As for the unpredictable and sometimes jocular Peer of Pagaro, his favorite could be anybody from the half a dozen politicians who go and touch his feet, as is the custom for the holy men of Sindh. The Peer is no fundamentalist and is known to keep the compay of beautiful women.

Intriguingly, some analysts believe the Peer of Pagaro might have made his Kashmir remarks with a wink and a nod from ``someone important`` to help solve the Kashmir dilemma by having both India and Pakistan maintain the parts of Kashmir they now hold - which just may be the ultimate solution.

http://www.newsline.com.pk/html/impressions.html

Indian Spring

MARCH 2001 ISSUE

- By Sairah Irshad Khan

A Muslim Indian explained why. ``Traditionally, the Indian Muslim has displayed a visible arrogance towards the Hindu faith. He has mocked his deities, shunned his beliefs and adopted the high moral ground in relation to the Hindu lifestyle. If this is the Indian Muslim, who has coexisted with the Hindu forever, it is presumed, naturally, that the Muslim from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan will be far more intolerant. The arrival of seven Pakistanis for the Kumbh and their obvious respect for Hindu customs, has therefore, made for a pleasant surprise. And this really is how we can build bridges, gulf the divide.``

Said an Indian Muslim businessman with a Pakistani wife and a large branch of his family on our side of the border, ``There used to be a time when Pakistanis would visit their relatives in India and speak of the quality of life they enjoyed in Pakistan as first-class citizens. The Indian Muslim would then bemoan his lot, and wonder whether he`d taken the right decision at Partition. But over the years, things changed. Between the Middle East, India`s economic boom, their own initiative, the Muslims have done better. Then along come the `mohajirs` from Pakistan with their tales of oppression and injustice, and suddenly the Indian Muslim thinks, `we`re not so badly off after all.``` He added that Kashmir has created another problem for the Indian Muslim. ``Always hard-pressed to prove his loyalty to his country, every time the Kashmir issue flares up, the loyalties of Muslims in India come under suspicion. Recently, I heard a group of Indian Muslims discussing the situation, and one of them turned around and said the Pakistanis are not interested in Muslims – only Kashmir. If they were, they`d worry about what happens to the huge Muslim community in India every time they instigate trouble in Kashmir.``

Another VERY INTERESTING bit of writing today
in The Times of India at:

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/30edit4.htm

Ras

Shankar #119

If you have relatives and poor or extremely rich relative you know what I mean.

Saudis are not custodians of Islam, nor do or can they claim. They are custodians of Holy mosque and traditionally their job is to take care of people visiting it.

Inspite of this at Government level they have been traditionally helpful to Pakistan and we should be grateful for it.

As far as their rude behaviour, it is being complained by many and was one of the reason for me not thinking of going there for job. (I avoided the jobs in Pakistan where I came to knew about this kind of behaviour)

As far as Nawaz Sharif going to Saudi. I don`t think Saudi Arab by itself would take such a decision and pressurize Musharraf(at most request) Nor would Musharraf take such a decision on his own (knowing the repersussions). So that is why I said that.

Although it is possible that Musharraf might have taken the decision to purge Pakistan of Nawaz Sharif and Saudi Arabia accepted to take Nawaz Sharif without Clinton being involved. Or Saudi Arabia requested and Musharraf found a good moment to purge Pakistan of him.

Not knowing nothing about the deal we have to present our conspiracy and non-conspiracy theories.

KRashid,

{{To put it another way. We are the poor relatives of Saudis.

As far as treatment of Pakistanis or Indian or Bangladeshis. They treat their workers as masters and if you know what a Kafeel is. (Newly enriched people`s behaviour).}}

I suppose even the guardians of Islam can get corrupted by their billions, huh?

{{I don`t expect them to take interest in Kashmir as much as Palestine particularly due to Al-Aqsa mosque and Arab nationalism.}}

Its interesting to know that subcontinental muslims are considered somewhat ``lesser`` muslims than their Arab brothers. I dont understand what they feel so superior about. They are just lucky to sit on that oil. They sit on their lazy butts & have Westerners pull out that oil & desis do the work of coolies. With all the money they have & access to the best education money can buy, I havent heard of a single Saudi scientific or technological achievement in the last century.

{{As far as fiasco of NS is concerned. I think it was the deal between Clinton, Saudi Arabia and Pervez Musharraf with NS agreeing for escape.}}

What evidence do you have about American involvement? It seems conspiracy theories are quite commonly floated in Pakistan, even among educated elite. Maybe your history has something to do with it. Almost every Pakistani president/pm has changed by backdoor deals & conspiracies.

{{Any way this post of yours is a little out of trend to your usual style.}}

I`m afraid I dont understand what you mean by that. I`ve always maintained that Pakistan has been jerked around by Arabs. Doesnt Islam say you should treat your poor relatives as equals? Dont they realise that Kashmir is as important to Pakistan as Palestine is to Palestinians?

What did their Palestinian brothers do in the gulf war? They openly supported Saddam Hussein against SA & Kuwait. Eventhough many Pakistani citizens were sympathising with Saddam, the govt was very clear in their total support of SA & Kuwait. I think SA has a very short memory; or they are racist (favouring Arab muslims to Pakistani muslims). Just my opinion--they could be much better friends to Pakistan than they are.

From The News International today:

Bazaz pleads rethink on Vajpayee, Musharraf

By Nusrat Javeed

NEW DELHI: Pundit Bhushan Bazaz, the leader of Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Front, has urged the authorities and opinion-makers of Pakistan to provide ``Atal Ji (the prime minister of India) with reasonable time and space to prove the claim that he was seriously looking for a creative and humane solution to the Kashmir problem.``

Talking to The News at his New Delhi residence the other day, Bazaz also stressed that the contours of a lasting solution to Kashmir can only begin shaping, once India and Pakistan shed and think beyond the given constructs and prejudices. They have been hardened thanks to the acrimonious build-up of past 50 years.

Bazaz has returned to India on December 28, after spending six weeks in Pakistan. It was his first trip across the Kashmir divide since 1947. That could happen because of a trend-setting marriage at Rawalpindi in November, last year. The daughter and son of two prominent Kashmiri leaders, Amanullah Khan and Abdul Ghani Lone, had tied the nuptial knot then. The occasion momentarily softened the Line of Control (LoC). Many leaders from both sides of Kashmir were allowed to attend. That generated tremendous amount of the feel-good mood.

Bazaz is overwhelmed with his trip: ``Disregarding the fact that I am a Hindu-Pundit, everyone I came into contact with in Pakistan would instantly reflect the friendly warmth. All would want to have me for dinners and lunches. Some would come with cars, for taking me to places of my liking. I didn`t notice any deep-set hatred against India. People rather appeared keen to see an early end of tensions among us.``

``Atal Ji,`` he believed, ``has the right credentials to discard some of them. He had learnt the political ropes in RSS (the rigid outfit of Hindu extremists). Who else but he should know the disastrous consequence of recklessly pursuing the bigot obsessions?`` Besides Vajpayee, said Bazaz: ``Pakistan`s military leader should also be helped, by the opinion-makers of India, to get out of the image of a war-monger, developed about him during the Kargil days. They have been telling us that military in Pakistan does not let the political leadership to negotiate serious things with India. The military has taken the front seat there. And, its leader is repeatedly expressing the desire of engaging in the serious dialogue for lasting and the real peace in the region. Why not to check his claim with correct responses?``

Pleading the rethink on Vajpayee and Musharraf, Bazaz also said: ``Keeping the original constituencies of both the leaders in mind, I would even go to the extent of claiming that it is now or never, if someone really cares to begin a new and healthy interaction between India and Pakistan.`` Watching the Pakistani women was a great surprise to this romantic Pundit. ``We are given to believe that women are forced to hide behind Burqas or the four walls of their homes. But, I saw them driving cars and using the cell-phones. Things are surely not dismal for them.``

He wanted to went on and on with his feel-good observations. But the journalist has to get him back on ``the political track.`` That was possible by tossing the question: What stops peace, if both the political and the military leaders of India and Pakistan want it and the mass of their people desire it? Bazaz became angry: ``There are people in both the countries, who have thrived and amassed overnight millions by inciting the perpetual bloodletting in Kashmir. They are the real hurdle.``

But, would he name them? ``Yes. Farooq Abdullah, the so-called chief minister of the Indian Kashmir, is one for example. He fully understands that any serious move towards peace would immediately make him redundant for New Delhi. As an evil manipulator, he will do everything to keep him relevant. I seriously suspect that he engineered the massacre of Sikhs in Chattisinghpura, on the event of President Clinton`s visit to India in March 2000. The attack on his person, last Sunday, also looks stage-managed to me. I rather have no doubts that he would manoeuvre many more dramatic killings to convince the government and the people of India that getting the army and security agencies out of Kashmir would lead to widespread mayhem.``

But Abdullah is not the one and only, considered the villain of the peace-piece by Bazaz. There are others too, especially certain quarters of the Indian establishment. ``Listen, what we talk here are millions at your disposal for unaccounted spending and the arbitrary powers to intrude into the lives of ordinary citizens. Also important are the foreign visits, justified in the name of telling our side of the story.``

And, who is putting up the roadblocks in Pakistan? ``That is your burden to explain. I would only say that minions of your security agencies don`t monopolise the bleed-Kashmir-lobby. There also are truckloads of Jihadis, who have amassed staggering amounts of resources in the name of Islam.`` Bazaz doesn`t need to feel apologetic while taking on some of those, who project the problem of Kashmir in the context of Hindu-Muslim divide only.

After all, he is the son of a legend of Kashmir, Prem Nath Bazaz. He hailed from an affluent and respectable family from Sumbal, a village very close to Srinagar. The elderly Bazaz was born a Pundit, the Brahmin, upper-crest of the Hindu community, which furnished the oppressive bureaucratic apparatus for the cruel Raja of Kashmir during the British days. Though son of a police inspector himself, Prem Nath was set to repel and defy the cruelty of power.

After graduating from the Punjab University of Lahore, he came back to Kashmir in early 1930s. Sheikh Abdullah had also returned after completing the education at Aligarh by then. And, the two decided to pull their people out of the fatalistic submission. The attempts to inject political thoughts were considered suicidal those days. As if the tight colonial controls were not enough, the people of Kashmir felt doubly subjugated for the special arrangements, their Raja had struck with the English. After acquiring the strategic Northern Areas of this princely state ``on lease`` for keeping an eye on China, the colonial masters allowed its Raja to get away with anything. Soon, the young Prem Nath was arrested and put to sweat for two years in Mirpur Jail.

The jail he was kept in now lies buried under waters of Mangla Dam. Yet, during his visit to Pakistan, Bhushan Bazaz went to the spot and brought the rock stones from there to keep the memories of his father alive. Anyway, Prem Nath became more hardened in jail. In solitude, he rather developed himself to a ``free thinker,`` who must do something for the downtrodden of this world. Small wonders, after getting out, he called for a ``Mazdoor-Kissan (labours and peasants) Conference`` to devise a secular-socialist manifesto for the state.

But, then came the independence and partition of India and Kashmir became the bone of contention. Many in Pakistan should know that it was Pundit Prem Nath Bazaz, who first used and introduced the term ``plebiscite`` in Kashmir`s politics. He drummed it to demand that only the people of Kashmir have the right to decide as to how they would want to live: as an independent state or a part of either India or Pakistan. That really annoyed his mother community, the pundits, who dubbed him a traitor. But that didn`t bring him close to Sheikh Abdullah either, the populist Muslim leader of the Kashmir Valley those days.

After helping the ``accession of Kashmir to India,`` the Sheikh rather began feeling highly uncomfortable with Prem Nath, who kept demanding the right to self-determination. Enough was enough. Throughout the formative years of Sheikh Abdullah`s government in held Kashmir, Pundit Prem Nath Bazaz was kept in this or that jail of the state. Finally, he was forced to exile in 1953.

But things for Bazaz didn`t improve even in India. The then prime minister, Nehru--also a Pundit of Kashmir origin--didn`t like him and always felt embarrassed with his pro-self-determination demands. That rather qualified the elderly Bazaz to get arrested under security charges. He had to prove that he wasn`t in the pay of Pakistan. Another long stint to jails for hardened criminal in the Indian Punjab became his fate. Ironically, during his term at the notorious NAWA jail of that province, Bal Thakrey, the founder of Shiv Sena, had joined him as a student activist, pursuing the Marathi chauvinistic ideals. Bazaz brought him to the reading of Geeta, a Hindu scripture.

You can`t stop Bhushan from referring to the conduct of his father, while taking on some of those who project the problem of Kashmir in the context of Hindu-Muslim divide only. And, he also wonders as to why Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the leader of the Jamaat-e-Islami in held Kashmir, is perceived as the one and only freedom fighter these days. ``Don`t people remember that he contested and won for a seat in the J&K State Assembly for four times? Which constitution, he would vow to protect after getting into the assembly? Obviously, the one imposed by the Indian government.

The same, to defy which my father, a Hindu-Pundit, was rotting in jails of India and Kashmir till his death. Yet, Geelani Sahib is perceived as the ultimate friend of Pakistan and Islam. Something is surely wrong somewhere. But, I won`t speak more. That may help Farooq Abdullah, whom I really hate.``

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/01/21/sticoncon01001.html
Britons take war holidays in Kashmir

Dalip Singh and James Clark


AT LEAST 900 young British Muslims are leaving the country each year to take part in the battle for Kashmir, with many using holidays from good jobs to fight in what they regard as a holy war, an investigation has revealed.

Recruited in mosques, bookshops and community groups, they spend three months being trained in mountain camps on the Pakistan border before entering the conflict against India.

Delhi is so angry about the increasing numbers of fighters being trained, and the £7m raised in Britain to ``defend`` the disputed province, that a private meeting has been called in the Indian capital tomorrow with representatives of the Foreign Office and MI5, the security service.

Indian officials will demand that Britain take stronger action to stop recruitment and fundraising, which they claim goes directly to terrorism and sees up to 1,800 Britons making the journey each year.

MI5, which has a special section dedicated to looking into the problem, disagrees with the Indian estimates. However, a security source said: ``There are about 900 UK citizens who make this trip for training each year. About 10% of those stay and fight, the rest take their political and religious indoctrination and bring it back to their own communities, mostly for fundraising and recruitment.``

He said the service was accutely sensitive to accusations that it was targeting Muslims, but insisted that it was targeting terrorists regardless of colour.

The Sunday Times spoke to three men in north London, all university graduates from middle-class British families, two of whom held down highly paid jobs. All three had trained or fought in Kashmir.

Abu Yahya, 27, said: ``I have just returned from Pakistan. I joined Islamic camps and met Islamic leaders. There I was trained with Islam jihad movements like Lashkar-e-Toiba, Harkat-ul-Jehad-Islami and Harkat-ul-Ansar. We were trained to use Kalashnikovs, make bombs, everything that an army would need to wage battle.``

Izzadeen Abdullah, a 25-year-old white former Christian with a degree in optical engineering, adopted Islam, had also recently returned. ``I crossed the border in Kashmir. I think for any Muslim, the most eagerly awaited opportunity is to kill the enemy.

``The Indian soldiers don`t deserve any mercy and I`m happy to say that I took part in wiping them out.

``We are planning to go there next month. I`m an engineer in fibre optics so I just contract out for a couple of months from work.``

Also in the house was Abu Ibrahim, a 29-year-old computer engineer. ``You would be surprised to know that there are many computer guys in places like Canary Wharf who are involved in these kinds of activities. I have had training here in the Territorial Army and again in Jammu and Kashmir in Pakistan.``

The one thing all three have in common is a fear of the government`s new anti-terrorism act, due to come into force this year. They believe it will lead to them being jailed in Britain if they continue to travel to Pakistan and Kashmir.

Ref krashid #: 115

[Any way this post of yours is a little out of trend to your usual style.]

Oh, no! I forgot to take my anti-psychotic medication and lapsed into my multiple-personality disorder!

I got to go back to being Dr. Headshrinker! Please help me take the child-proof cap off my bottle of medicine!

Shankar #114

To put it another way. We are the poor relatives of Saudis.

As far as treatment of Pakistanis or Indian or Bangladeshis. They treat their workers as masters and if you know what a Kafeel is. (Newly enriched people`s behaviour).

But overall Pakistan`s friendship with Saudi Arabia is long lasting on a Government level, beneficial to Pakistan.

I don`t expect them to take interest in Kashmir as much as Palestine particularly due to Al-Aqsa mosque and Arab nationalism.

As far as fiasco of NS is concerned. I think it was the deal between Clinton, Saudi Arabia and Pervez Musharraf with NS agreeing for escape.

In view of pardoning by Clinton of 100 prisoners, some his close associates, I think Clinton is a person who will do everything possible for his friends and benefactors. (Remember Kargil).

Any way this post of yours is a little out of trend to your usual style.

sadna,

{{Either the Kingdom of S A is part of the sovereign territory of Pakistan, or someone in the Pakistani Foreign office has a really guilty conscience.}}

Correction. Pakistan is part of the sovereign territory of SA. If the royal family of SA says ``jump``, the GoP says ``How high?!``

The royal family has the audacity of giving asylum to Pakistan`s First Criminal. Behind smoke filled doors, the royals & their loyal generals of Pakistan negotiate a deal for his release. Nobody bothers to ask what the average Pakistani feels! For the sake of some cheap oil & goodwill, it seems the GoP is willing to export their privileged criminals to their Saudi masters!

Ever since its birth, Pakistani govts has prostrated themselves in front of their Saudi masters. In return, those Saudis treat Pakistani workers just as badly as Indians in their country.

Have the Saudis supported their muslim Kashmiri brothers as zealously as their Palestinian brothers? Hah! They are ever willing to slam Israel at every international forum, boycott all trade & diplomacy & publicly dispute American pro Israeli policy..

What are they doing to India? Supporting Pakistan sponsored ``resolutions`` condemning India`s Kashmir policy?!! That is the biggest scam in the world. They turn around and do more trade with India than Pakistan!! They visit India & give a wink & nod to New Delhi. They protest about Kashmir, almost embarassingly & as an afterthought!

The problem is that this glaring fact is almost always downplayed by Pakistan govts. Its so painful that even talking about it officially is not done. God forbid if even expressing some doubts about ``reciprocity in frienship`` would offend their Saudi masters! No, its much easier to question the Indian foreign minister`s evil intentions than even wonder why SA has allowed the foreign minister to visit them. After all the support Pakistan has given them, not to support Pakistan to the hilt is not the act of a friend.

Putting it very bluntly, Pakistan is getting royally ripped off by the Saudis. Is the relationship that of friends on an equal footing or that between a master & a servant? I wonder if they even complain to them privately. Ofcourse Pakistan would much rather endure Saudi hegemony to India`s--no doubt about that1

Farzana,

{{Help! I did not admonish anyone for their ‘prejudiced bigotry’. I only reiterated that I was an Indian.}}

Hahaha..sorry, didnt realise we were shaking your words like a batons in our enthusiasm to slam the other side. Ok wont include you in anymore mudslinging.

I kinda like Pakistani bigots like URstruly & ali1 because I know they laugh while typing hindu insults.

What do you know!!! Its about time I confessed---I have this incredible supernatural power to look through my computer screen, traverse through the great information highways & watch their expressions while they type! It comes from years of dedicated worship to the Great Penis God.

Ofcourse, those idiots will angrily deny it. They just dont want to admit the incredible power that those of us who religiously worship him can attain.

URstruly,

Know something!! all these days I`ve been trying to download that damned SAfrican videoclip of Satya SaiBaba bringing a lingum out of his mouth. Yikes! The penis god has given him more powers than me! My &$# * computer doesnt want to do it! Damn, I might have done something to piss the god off.

On second thoughts though....what the hecks so great about that?! Any fool can do that! Heck, even Monica Lewinsky can do it. er..maybe not exactly the same way. But she sure had more fun doing her patriotic duty for the nation..

. Some of you fundos from the other side ought to try worshipping the penis god!. Will do wonders in..er..shall I say.. ahem..harem performance.. Heck, afterwords you can always fall at Allah`s feet & beg His mercy. The AllPowerful & AllMerciful will surely forgive you. Afterall, havent you followed His divine orders & chopped the heads of so many idolators?!

Either the Kingdom of S A is part of the sovereign territory of Pakistan, or someone in the Pakistani Foreign office has a really guilty conscience.

From jang.com.pk
Jaswant`s motives in Saudi Arabia questioned

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Friday questioned Indian Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh`s motives on his visit to Saudi Arabia, saying he was likely to try to undermine Riyadh`s close ties with Islamabad.

``The visit of Jaswant Singh is obviously aimed at forging closer relations between the two countries and weakening Saudi Arabia`s support to Pakistan on the Kashmir issue,`` a news agency report said quoting a senior foreign office official.

Ref Farzana Versey #: 109

[I would also like to know what role the Pandits see for themselves in a real azaad Kashmir? Do you have any material on that?]

The same role the bakra sees for itself on Bakra-Eid. Ras may not have any material but the Ummah is sharpening their knives.

RE; Farzana 109

The recent attack at the airport is not Pakistan`s doing. There are some groups very much in the minority who want this war to continue.
(Some like myself wonder who is really behind them). They will continue to do their deeds till the local population in Kashmir withdraws support from them. By that time I hope that the locals will themselves have been offered alternatives to the freedom struggle (self-rule, maximum autonomy or regional plebiscites to ask which country they would like to live in etc.).
The Pandits will have a very difficult role in
defining the future of Kashmiriyat AND the possible geography of the area (I am not yet ready to call it a Partition because one cannot predict what character this entity is going to have).

Ras

Ras:

What do you have to say about the recent incident at Srinagar airport where militants managed to get past security? It is said that the 16-year-old girl who was killed could possibly have been an associate of the miltants. What peace can we talk about,and in what context?

Did you see that photograph of Dixit and Bhatti, supposedly representing our two countries, asleep even as discussions on important issues were on?

I would also like to know what role the Pandits see for themselves in a real azaad Kashmir? Do you have any material on that?

Regards,

Farzana

Shankar (Reply # 106):

“Urstruly, Ali1,

Tsk tsk tsk. You try & be so nice & protective of Farzana & she admonishes you for your prejudiced bigotry. When will you guys realize that it just might be possible that Indian muslims consider themselves just as much Indian as any hindu?”

Help! I did not admonish anyone for their ‘prejudiced bigotry’. I only reiterated that I was an Indian. I think these two are more likely to accept and understand this fact than many Indians on here. I would like to believe that just as you and a couple of others tried to understand my position, some of the Pakistanis too were responding to me at a purely ‘human’ level. When they did go off at a tangent, I cleared their misconception. Do you realize that I cannot do so with the Hindus here? They will call me a traitor, a hypocrite, elitist, a whiner, everything but an Indian.

I have had to worry over how the Indians would react to me being `supported` by the Pakistanis. It is a ridiculous fear, but that is how deep the prejudices are. You only have to check out the man who ``sux`` on these Boards to know what I am talking about.

Farzana

A window that should not be shut!

From The Hindu today at:

http://www.the-hindu.com/stories/05162523.htm

Ras

Urstruly, Ali1,

Tsk tsk tsk. You try & be so nice & protective of Farzana & she admonishes you for your prejudiced bigotry. When will you guys realise that it just might be possible that Indian muslims consider themselves just as much Indian as any hindu?

When you act like these noble knights in shining armor & pity them because they are unfairly treated or if they have issues with hindus, you give them a message ``you poor bakras, you should have done what we did & opted for the paradise of Pakistan``. I think its just as insulting to them as when hindu bigots tell them ``if you dont like what is happening, go to Pakistan``. So please spare them your pity. Its like me having pity for muslim societies just because Solitude goes into anti-Islamic rantings.

Bigots from both sides have the same agenda. A pure Islamic Pakistan & a pure Hindu India. When ``liberals`` from either side disagree with your views you call them cowards, communists & hypocrites. Hindu & muslim bigots may hate each other, but have a mutual respect for each other ``because at least we know where they stand; its those cowardly liberals who should`nt be trusted``.

Once again, let me toast a glass of cow urine in honor of your intelligence!

On a side note, if Aaker Patel is the editor who did this, then considering his standard on this board in past interactions, he should resign first.

Ref ali1 #: 102

[Thanks God you didn`t ask me to change it to Shiva/Krishna/Gadha/Ghora/Kutta/Naga or some other animal`s lingam.]

That`s because you are a horse`s ass, you idiot.

Whether one agrees with Farzana`s views or not, and granted that we only know only one side of the story, I must say that the editor was not very professional in dealing with her.

Farzana # 97

[``What worries me is the prejudice prevalent here. I have not been seeking sympathy and, as I said earlier, I did not start this discussion.``]

I think you are taking this forum way too seriously. You are at a disadvantage here since you are not anonymous like the rest (most) of us. And anything you say here can and will be used against you in real life :-)

[``It is a pity that your attempts at responding to me as a human being qualify us to be “interchangeable”. ``]

The person who made that qualification has not a bee but a bee-hive full of buzzing bees up the hiney.

[``Can you please change your name to Saxena or something?!``]

Thanks God you didn`t ask me to change it to Shiva/Krishna/Gadha/Ghora/Kutta/Naga or some other animal`s lingam.

MaheshG (Reply # 76):

“What do you say about the 100 Hindu labourers killed recently in Kashmir? Is that just propaganda?”

That is a mischievous question. You are assuming that I want Hindus in Kashmir and elsewhere to be killed. I refuse to answer this one.

Farzana



Shankar (#98):

Thanks, and more...

Farzana



(#99):

Waiting to exhale???



Urstruly (Reply #92):

While I do thank you for your support and I intend to continue to be “courageous”, please do not ever forget that I am an Indian. “Keep on exposing the ugly side of these two-faced pompous Indians”. I will keep exposing two-faced groups of people, whatever be their nationality, race, sexual orientation, whatever. However, India is not a “slaughterhouse”. It happens to be my home. A home, not just a house.

Farzana



TO THE CHOWK POSTERS

Considerable space has been taken here to discuss my professional ‘problem’. I think it is extremely unfair to Ras, the writer of this article. Therefore, since I have left some queries

unanswered I have posted my replies to my ‘Mandir’ Board. It did say that the submission was successful, so if you wish you may check it out. It will get kind of messy!

Regarding my comment about “poor Pandits”, those who have expressed righteous indignation have not contributed one intelligible word on that subject here and instead chosen to hit out at me. (For the unabridged version of my reply, go to my Board.) Now, can we get back to giving peace a chance?

Farzana

Barring the chest thumping usual rhetoric an important piece of news:

Army chief wants Kashmir ceasefire extended

www.timesofindia.com

NEW DELHI: Army chief General S Padmanabhan favours further extension of the government`s unilateral ceasefire in Jammu and Kashmir. ``Continue with it and see what comes out of it,`` he said here on Friday.

Addressing a press conference ahead of Army Day, Padmanabhan said the disadvantages the military faced when ordered not to initiate combat operations in the Valley were ``insignificant``. It was up to the government to decide on continuing with the ceasefire, but if it was a good thing it should be continued. ``And I believe it is a good thing.``

The ceasefire, first declared for Ramzan, was extended by a month. The government will decide after Republic Day whether a further extension should be allowed. But the Army chief`s remarks indicate that a further extension is probable.

There was ``a sea-change in the overall situation`` and ``a huge burgeoning of hope`` in the Valley, Padmanabhan said. Though there is violence in the interior, the border has quietened down after the ceasefire. Shelling across the Line of Control and the border has declined. ``Barring a few incidents of firing, the border situation is very quiet,`` he said, indicating that Pakistan`s promise of restraint on the LoC was mostly being kept.

On Pakistan`s announcement that it had pulled out troops from the LoC, the general was, however, sceptical. No frontline troops - nothing of significance, he said - had been withdrawn. Units sent there post-Kargil for specific purposes, however, had been called back. In that manner, India too had withdrawn troops from the LoC, he said. Padmanabhan said the troop concentration in Kargil had been reduced, and the Army would continue to pare its strength there to a minimum.

The Army chief said incidents of violence were still taking place within the state but the strikes were being carried out by foreign militants. ``Our home-grown militant is sick and tired of the fighting, though he is not saying anything.``

Asked if the ceasefire had given militants an opportunity to regroup, Padmanabhan said the security forces knew where the militants were and could get them when they decide to. Even now, he said, ``surgical operations`` against small groups of militants were taking place, based on specific intelligence.

I`ve said it a hundred times and I`ll say it again: Farzana`s column was probably dropped for poor writing and content. Her English is horrible (so is mine, but I am not a journalist) and her writing is nothing more than a bitter person venting her personal issues...it`s ok to criticize things...that`s what a journalist ought to do....but it should be in the form of rigorous analysis, not personal moaning and bit#hing.

Farzana,

Thankyou for your gracious reply. I empathise with you. The way they dropped your column was certainly very unprofessional, to say the least.

{{I am surprised you are looking for another angle to the story for you haven’t even got one side. A person comes to a public forum when he cannot do the dignified thing where it matters, and you expect the truth? And just for your information, he is even refusing to carry my Letter in their Mailbag page.}}

I was a little blindsided by Ali who was using this example to demonstrate how wretched the plight of muslims in India is. I appreciate the fact that you dont want to communalise this issue. Youre right, I dont need an explanation from aakar after I read your post.

If muslims from prepartitioned India feel that they made the right choice of moving from other parts of India to Pakistan;--hey I`m happy for them. But a few bigots pity those muslims who made the choice to stay behind--to the point where they think Indian muslims are nothing but goats heading to a slaughterhouse. Even if they have nothing but the greatest concern for Indian muslims, they sound pretty patronising.

Ras (Reply #77):

My, my, you too? Can’t take a joke and feel pressurised? Oh all right. I was only kidding about you picking up a Kalashnikov and aiming it at me. The reason being that your Board has unfortunately become a discussion ground for something quite different – a professional happening in my life.

In fact, I wish to apologise to you. I do not know about Chowk protocol (though I am aware that on my Boards people had even begun to discuss restaurants!), but I am not personally comfortable with this. However, I hope you will understand my need to clarify certain points. In my next post I will request the Chowkwallas not to abuse your space, that’s a promise. Sorry about this once again.

Thanks and regards,

Farzana



Krashid (Reply #81):

I like Gibran precisely because he is an idealist. His oft-repeated quote, “Let there be spaces in your togetherness,” is, I think, the best way in which all human relationships ought to be conducted. It is the smothering and claiming of one another that proves to be our doom.

Farzana



ali1 (Reply # 70)

You have told Shankar, “I hope you and other Indians will find the courage to write to the bigot who is the editor of ``that publication`` and force him to take back his unjust decision.”

In my post (#71) I have stated that I do not wish to communalise the issue. There is no question about anyone taking back their decision, and as long as such people are around, there is no question of my going back. In all these years I have never approached any publication.

What worries me is the prejudice prevalent here. I have not been seeking sympathy and, as I said earlier, I did not start this discussion. It is a pity that your attempts at responding to me as a human being qualify us to be “interchangeable”. Can you please change your name to Saxena or something?!

Farzana



Shankar (Reply #87):

There is most certainly a bias against me (and I say this matter-of-factly, for biases exist everywhere), but not merely because I “defied the conventional hindu inspired dominant discourse”, but due to the fact that I am what I am without becoming a pawn. I have not met the editor, who has joined just over six months ago; I don’t meet editors anyway.

My disappointment is not that I was done away with, but the way it was done: No prior intimation, no courtesy of a call/note, no reasons given…and then, when pushed against a wall, going to the extent of quoting the negative Posts at Chowk as evidence of my being inconvenient, when the fact is that my column was dropped before I submitted ‘Soft Option’ here!

I am surprised you are looking for another angle to the story for you haven’t even got one side. A person comes to a public forum when he cannot do the dignified thing where it matters, and you expect the truth? And just for your information, he is even refusing to carry my Letter in their Mailbag page. I have yet to come across such suppression by those who talk about free speech. All I wanted to do is address the readers of so many years. It would have been a gracious gesture. Anyway, as a shrink, can you tell me how an asset can become a liability overnight? Do you charge by the hour, or the extent of dementia?:)

Farzana

Ras (Reply #77):

My, my, you too? Can’t take a joke and feel pressurised? Oh all right. I was only kidding about you picking up a Kalashnikov and aiming it at me. The reason being that your Board has unfortunately become a discussion ground for something quite different – a professional happening in my life.

In fact, I wish to apologise to you. I do not know about Chowk protocol (though I am aware that on my Boards people had even begun to discuss restaurants!), but I am not personally comfortable with this. However, I hope you will understand my need to clarify certain points. In my next post I will request the Chowkwallas not to abuse your space, that’s a promise. Sorry about this once again.

Thanks and regards,

Farzana



Krashid (Reply #81):

I like Gibran precisely because he is an idealist. His oft-repeated quote, “Let there be spaces in your togetherness,” is, I think, the best way in which all human relationships ought to be conducted. It is the smothering and claiming of one another that proves to be our doom.

Farzana



ali1 (Reply # 70)

You have told Shankar, “I hope you and other Indians will find the courage to write to the bigot who is the editor of ``that publication`` and force him to take back his unjust decision.”

In my post (#71) I have stated that I do not wish to communalise the issue. There is no question about anyone taking back their decision, and as long as such people are around, there is no question of my going back. In all these years I have never approached any publication.

What worries me is the prejudice prevalent here. I have not been seeking sympathy and, as I said earlier, I did not start this discussion. It is a pity that your attempts at responding to me as a human being qualify us to be “interchangeable”. Can you please change your name to Saxena or something?!

Farzana



Shankar (Reply #87):

There is most certainly a bias against me (and I say this matter-of-factly, for biases exist everywhere), but not merely because I “defied the conventional hindu inspired dominant discourse”, but due to the fact that I am what I am without becoming a pawn. I have not met the editor, who has joined just over six months ago; I don’t meet editors anyway.

My disappointment is not that I was done away with, but the way it was done: No prior intimation, no courtesy of a call/note, no reasons given…and then, when pushed against a wall, going to the extent of quoting the negative Posts at Chowk as evidence of my being inconvenient, when the fact is that my column was dropped before I submitted ‘Soft Option’ here!

I am surprised you are looking for another angle to the story for you haven’t even got one side. A person comes to a public forum when he cannot do the dignified thing where it matters, and you expect the truth? And just for your information, he is even refusing to carry my Letter in their Mailbag page. I have yet to come across such suppression by those who talk about free speech. All I wanted to do is address the readers of so many years. It would have been a gracious gesture. Anyway, as a shrink, can you tell me how an asset can become a liability overnight? Do you charge by the hour, or the extent of dementia?:)

Farzana

Cheraym #83

Being a Hindu (or Hindu related) your criticism is taken in right spirit. F-Versey, being Muslim, her criticism is taken in wrong spirit.

Criteria of column writer is readership.

And putting the posting on Chowk regarding this, clearly indicates malafide intent.

And how much you twist, the truth remains evident.

Only the words on chowk and blind eye cannot see what is happening.

Harpreet #

I appreciate your concern.

Take the other person as he/she is. It increases my belief in human.

Ref Urstruly #: 92

You said {We need courageous people like yourself to face the tough times that are coming this month when hindus will start their ``Yudh`` on Muslim and Christian minorities, from Kunbh Mela.

May Allah protect you and all our Muslim brothers and sisters in the slaughterhouse called India.}

In case you didn`t know it, Maha Kumbh Mela (the Great Pitcher Festival, as the BBC translated it) is being held in Allahabad.

What subterfuges the diabolical Hindus won`t resort to in order to lull the Muslims into a false sense of security! Allahabad, indeed! At least, they haven`t named the city Islamabad! The peace-loving Indian Muslims are going to be slaughtered and their blood is going to be carried in pitchers, as has been happening since times immemorial.

Channel 4 of Britain is going to carry extensive reporting on the Festival. I for one can`t wait to see death, blood and mayhem on live TV. It should be the final proof to the world that the average Hindu is a murderous fiend.

PS. If I were you, I wouldn`t open the door when I hear a knock. People in white coats may be coming around to collect you and take you to a safe place where you can mingle with Elvis, JFK, and the like. They may also remove the anal probe that the little green men left in your body when you were last abducted and taken to the edge of the solar system on a UFO to have sex with alien women.

RE Shankar # 87

I salute you chacha shankar!

Dear Ms. Versey!

I am sorry to hear about your dismissal. Please do not lose your heart because of this temporary setback; never give up and never give in. Keep on exposing the ugly side of these two-faced pompous Indians. We need courageous people like yourself to face the tough times that are coming this month when hindus will start their ``Yudh`` on Muslim and Christian minorities, from Kunbh Mela.

May Allah protect you and all our Muslim brothers and sisters in the slaughterhouse called India.

From The News, Jan. 10, 2001

``Lashkar warns APHC not to take Indian line

``MUZAFFARABAD: The Lashkar-i-Taiba Mujahideen group on Wednesday warned APHC leaders not to bring an ``Indian agenda`` with them when they visit Pakistan for talks.``

``We will not hold talks with them if they bring an Indian agenda to ask for cessation of operations by mujahideen (Islamic fighters) in response to a so-called Indian ceasefire,`` the Pakistan-based group`s chief Hafez Mohammad Saeed said.``

Presumably, the `democratic` and non-Kashmiri LeT wants the `real representatives of Kashmir`(i.e APHC) to bring neither a Kashmiri, nor an Indian but an LeT (or Pakistani?) agenda.

#89
Sorry wrong thread.

Dionysus #167
``but the vast majority also believe that at the end of the day only the Kashmiris have the right to decide the future of THEIR motherland.``
`` Unlike you Indians we don`t think we own the subcontinent.``

Your generalizations are genuinely amusing. `vast majority` of Pakistanis have no way of expressing their beliefs for ANYONE to tell. I prefer to go by mass meetings and public statements of those who ARE still allowed to display their convictions in public.

btw, unlike Pakistanis, who fight freedom struggles on behalf of others all over the world, in Kashmir, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Palestine, Central Asia,the Philipines, there is no such public discourse or public movement among ordinary Indians. Sri Lanka may be the only place currently of interest to any nongovernmental Indian group.

Indians think they own the subcontinent: what kind of vague meaningless statement is that?

Sadhana

It`s quite clear from Farzana Versey`s writing on Chowk why a newspaper might be unhappy with her. Poor writing skills and poor content...she provides neither a solid reporting of facts nor a rigorous analysis of issues...she uses her writing as a loudspeaker to moan about her personal issues and vent some bitterness. (Before you decide to point out that I exhibit the same problems, let me remind you that I am not a journalist...just a random poster on a message board.)

Farzana,

This may sound incredibly naieve; but were you ``sacked`` because you were a muslim who defied the conventional hindu inspired dominant discourse?

If yes, then the magazine (what is its name anyway) & the editors are definite bigots & I am disgusted with their behavior.

However, if Aakar Patel wants to give his side, then I definitely would like to hear it--his perogative.

One from the pessimistic side in The Times of India today at:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/100101/detOPI01.asp

I do not agree with the author`s doom and gloom for India!

Ras

The Economist has an interesting article:

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=464819

krashid:

A genuine request. I hope you will take it in the right spirit. Many of your posts make a great deal of sense. Often, however, you make one line comments that are difficult to fathom for people who may not always be on the same wavelength as you. I personally will like to understand your comments better since I have come to respect many of your views. No, this is not a suggestion for a course in ESL: your grasp of the language is better than mine.

Prem

Dear Krashid:

May I know what right of Ms. Versey in India you are pointing out? There are other interactors of Indian origin who speaks out against establishment now and then. I have done several times here for West Bengal Govt. and Jyoti Basu for the mess that WB is in right now. Speaking against India does not make her a traitor irrespective of her religion, however so far whatever masterpiece she has craeted here is devoid of logic, coherence, and full of biases. Then she makes fun in odd places portraiting herself to be an insensitive person. She has the audacity of making expression like ``Poor Pandits``. It is all her doing Krashid, neither yours nor mine! and I do not want to start an argument here with you for her.

Regards

cheraym

Cheraym #79

When you start to learn to fight for your rights instead of doing Parnam, we will all listen and follow your advise.

Otherwise Apni Gali Mein to Kutta Bhi Sher Hota Hai.

F- Versey #71

Out of all those names you mentioned, I read Gibran to some extent. And my belief in God and human relationship is very much inspired by him.

But caution. He is idealist and believe in power of words, more than action.

While seeing the situation in world, words are only beatiful slogans dragged and drowned by realities.

Sadhna #74

Thanks for your generosity. :-) :-) :-)

Dear Ms. Versey:

My new year wish for you that your wish

``So I better run…like those poor Pandits (I too join the ranks of the

‘homeless’ now, don’t I?)``

be fullfilled. Once you are homeless, you will feel the pain of all ``Poor`` homeless people, whether they are Kashmiri Pandits or Muslims!

The only reason I can think of sacking you from your so-called column is that you really are no writer/journalist in the first place.

Cheraym

Ref ali1 #: 72

You said {Maybe its my dumb Muslim brain as gymnosophist would say}

Can you tell me ONE instance where I said `dumb Muslim brain` in a year of interacting on Chowk?

You said to Sadhana {You are a master of putting words in other people`s mouth.}

What do you think YOU did with the words you claimed I wrote?

RE: Farzana #71
You wrote:
``As for Kalashnikovs, I can see Ras picking one up and aiming it straight at me!``

I may shoot some words of praise once in a while
but that is all. And my wife will correct me if
I shoot my mouth off on occasion. But I hate guns
and everything connected with them (used a BB or Air gun a few times). A Kalashnikov is what I consider an abomination!

Ras

Farzana #71

What do you say about the 100 Hindu labourers killed recently in Kashmir? Is that just propaganda?

Re: FZ

``My views on Pandits go not only against “mainstream Hindu India” but also against the prevalent belief in almost every media.``

Isn`t that the purpose of your writing? To play to some claim to have ``extreme anti-establishment`` views? You know, kinda like teenagers rebelling for the sake of rebelling so at least they`ll get attention?

(You never cease to crack me up...if Times of India hadn`t wished its readers Eid, you`d be here complaining...now that it has, you`re still complaining because, out of paranoia, you doubt it`s sincerity)

Farzana
As you can see, I am back to treating you like any other Indian :).

ali1 #72 Farzana #71
``but I don`t understand (the passport bit) what you are talking about``

More sanctimonious hypocrisy. Didnot TNT provide `a majority` of Indian Muslims with Pakistani passports? For those you call `left behind` you want provide guns? Sounds less like TNT and more like my favourite `dispossessed Mughal theory`.

I put words in your mouth? Take a moment to read your own post:
`` none of you i.e. the Hindus, has so far condemned the victimization of an Indian Muslim for expressing her views. I think you are as happy as the bigot who did the sacking``

On the other hand you want to put guns..
References to beef donot do the needful in insulting me or my `religious` sensibilities, btw, because unfortunately for you, where I grew up Hindus traditionally eat beef. Try something else. And I need to point out if I retaliate in kind the howls of horror that will follow will make me a `bigot` and responsible for the entire sorry history of the subcontinent and the `hurt psyche` of people like yourself and Ms Versey.

Anyway. Re your and Ms Versey`s various views, which seem interchangeable. First it was the deadly insult of declaring a ceasefire during Ramzan, then it was the hypocrisy of hosting Iftar parties, now it is the prejudice and discourtesy which prevents TOI from wishing everyone on Eid. I donot know what TOI does or doesnot do on Indian festivals, including Eid, but going by the above, I`m suspecting, if they HAD wished their readers happy Eid, every Hindu would have gotten the stick, anyway. I donot care to take responsibility for every hurt felt by Ms Versey in her social life as a Muslim and donot choose to see prejudice everywhere she chooses to point. Life is full of worse hurts for everyone, including Indian Muslims, on their identity, on their security, on their options in life.

Re Indian Muslim issues, some material, though not enough, is available from elsewhere which provides viewpoints and information which increase understanding. I regret that these days at least in print and in politics, it seems too much to expect possible solutions to be discussed or investigated based on assumptions of good faith among Hindus and Muslims.

In contrast, as far as Ms Versey and yourself are concerned, forget good faith or solutions, not even clarity can be expected on what are the issues. Take the Masjid issue. Without doubt, the demolition of the Babri Masjid has become a potent symbol contributing to the real and perceived insecurity of Indian Muslims among all Indians. Unfortunately, such an incident cannot be reversed and the vast majority of Indians including chowk Indians, were not present or in a position to act on their true convictions in preventing it or facilitating it. The fact remains we have to move forward and take responsibility of acting on our convictions even though its after the event.

But given that such an incident occured, neither yourself nor Ms Versey seems to present any aspect of any Hindu-Muslim issue except general rage at the existence of Hindus, a circumstance which going solely by the interacts here, at best results in unrelenting discrimination and prejudice and at worst in a general blood bath. No other delination of problems, no other culmination, no possiblity or route to problem-solving seems worth considering. There seems nowhere to go beyond such a point of argument (apparently not even to Pakistan), what remains for others [the `Hindus`] to say or do except perhaps offer sympathies at their own existence :) and then perhaps go and buy their own guns?

Sadhana

sadna # 67

[``The mention of passports shook you, it looks like, it doesnot pay to expect someone to really follow through on their rhetoric vis-a-vis TNT.``]

Maybe its my dumb Muslim brain as gymnosophist would say, or my memory is weak due to eating too much beef but I don`t understand (the passport bit) what you are talking about. Once I do, I would be more than pleased to follow through on my rhetoric.

[``Moreover, donot ask me to answer for others on this forum just because of THEIR `religion`, and donot expect me to refrain from criticizing her views and her attitudes like I would, any other Indian. ``]

You are a master of putting words in other people`s mouth. When exactly did I ask you or expect you to do the above?

macgupta (Reply #62):

Isn’t it precious that almost everyone seems to have had extensive conversations with Kashmiri Pandits and can tout their version of events as authentic, whereas I have no right to express an opinion, based on certain facts? If I recall, you had at one point in time suggested that we ought to discuss various issues together. You were perhaps the only one who took the time to look for my other work. What happened then? Please do not forget that I am doing a journalist’s job, not an activist’s. Writing is my only means of communicating – I am NOT associated with any religious/secular organization, and have no intention of doing so.

You say, “Shed your persecution complex -- I think ylh has suffered more abuse than anyone else on these boards, but he keeps on coming back.” If you are referring to my post on my two Boards that I would refrain from personally replying, then I think I had made it clear: I had nothing to add to that discussion. Regarding “persecution complex”, while you are entitled to your opinion, I do not see it as a valid accusation. I have always made an attempt to clarify/argue. And if all you want is for me to keep coming back, then here I am.



Farzana

--------

Krashid (Reply # 64):

I guess one has to only reach out to other human beings – that constitutes faith. Anyway, thanks for sharing. Yes, Spinoza is my man. So are Nietzsche and Gibran. BTW, have you read the Sufi poems of Ayatollah Khomeini?

Farzana

--------

Ali1 (Reply # 61& 66):

Although I am touched by your concern, the points you have raised, even if pertinent up to a degree, is not how I would like to see the issue. I know I have been called all manner of names on this forum, but that is because the posters at Chowk, and that includes you, have only got to see what I have written here. I would not like to see the silencing of my voice as a Hindu-Muslim fight. I am serious. My views on Pandits go not only against “mainstream Hindu India” but also against the prevalent belief in almost every media. (Ras himself does not agree with me.)

Communalism is only one aspect of what has happedn with me. Let me remind you that a rank opportunist cannot be deemed a “bigot” simply because he may not be committed to any ideology, except saving his own skin. No, I cannot sue anyone. They work on whims and fancies. (I have written an ‘expose’ on the subject in the Jan issue of ‘Gentleman’ magazine; unfortunately, they do not have a web edition.) But I must say that the best compliment I have received is from a person from the RSS who told me, “The reason I like you is that we know where we stand with you. If it has to be put in so many words, then you are an honourable enemy.” I think that is vindication enough.

That does not mean we are not a prejudiced society. ‘The Times of India’, in fact, did not even have the courtesy of wishing its readers on Eid this time. (Though I would be quite happy if we dropped these gestures altogether.)

Re Sadna’s reply to you (#67), I agree with her that she should not be made answerable for Hindu responses on Chowk. She does not agree with my views in her personal capacity. By the same token, I would appreciate it if she accepted that I DO NOT “speak exclusively on behalf” of my co-religionists. The two articles here happen to be subjects that were a typically journalistic need to comment on a topical subject. That they come across as palpably ‘Muslim’ points of view has to do with the nature of one’s views. What would have been the reaction had I spoken about insurgency in the North East instead of Kashmir? Everyone else seems more obsessed with my religion than I am. An Arun Shourie quoting shairs is said to have eclectic tastes; when I do so, it is seen as cultural conditioning. The statement, “and do not expect me to refrain from criticizing her views and her attitudes like I would, any other Indian,” is perfectly in keeping with the spirit of this forum. May I expect similar standards where my opinions are concerned?

Now for a small sermon: would you consider not using terms like “dhoti-clad”, “langoor” etc? It takes away from the seriousness of what you are saying and does not really demolish anyone. As for Kalashnikovs, I can see Ras picking one up and aiming it straight at me!

So I better run…like those poor Pandits (I too join the ranks of the ‘homeless’ now, don’t I?)

Farzana

RE: shankar # 69

http://chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=rsiddiqui_dec3000&n=50#reply18

http://chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=rsiddiqui_dec3000&n=10#reply55

this will tell you the story.

I hope you and other Indians will find the courage to write to the bigot who is the editor of ``that publication`` and force hime to take back his unjust decision.

{{- the Hindu editor announces this accomplishment on chowk, ostensibly he is pleased that he has dealt with a muslim who had forgotten her place.}}

I think I missed this. Farzana (or anybody else), could you please enlighten me as to who this editor was & where in Chowk did this happen ?--so I can come to my own conclusions.

Thanks, in advance.

About Ms. Farzana Versey :

Is it not true that the owner of Midday is a Muslim? I am not so sure, but I thought reading somewhere that he is a Muslim...

If that is so, then it is indeed interesting to hear that her coloumn had been dropped. Does that mean the editor ( who, as someone has mentioned earlier, is a Hindu) is more powerful than the owner? Can anyone fill me with details?

Thanx and cheers,

ali1 #66
The mention of passports shook you, it looks like, it doesnot pay to expect someone to really follow through on their rhetoric vis-a-vis TNT.

Re Ms Versey, I have no idea about the reasons behind the incident you mention, actually I understood it to predate the appearance of her recent two articles on chowk by a month. I for one didnot approve of the manner in which such a fact was revealed on chowk and wrote on another thread that I hoped Ms Versey would continue to contribute and interact on chowk. Such an opinion has nothing to do with her `religion`. In fact she is the one who speaks exclusively on behalf of her co-religionists and noone else. Moreover, donot ask me to answer for others on this forum just because of THEIR `religion`, and donot expect me to refrain from criticizing her views and her attitudes like I would, any other Indian.

Sadhana

sadna # 63

Correct me if the following is not accurate.

- an indian muslim journalist (Ms Versey) posts her articles on chowk. Her opinions are different from mainstream Hindu India. e.g. her view on pandits etc.

- she is abused by almost all the Hindu interactors on this forum (mad cow, go to Afghanistan etc.)

- she is `sacked` by the Hindu editor of a publication she has been contributing to for 11 years.

- the Hindu editor announces this accomplishment on chowk, ostensibly he is pleased that he has dealt with a muslim who had forgotten her place.

- none of you i.e. the Hindus, has so far condemned the victimization of an Indian Muslim for expressing her views. I think you are as happy as the bigot who did the sacking.

Peace in Kashmir? How can there be peace in Kashmir when even a Hurriyat leader has to be provided with security by India? Why did he need security? Well, after returning from Pakistan he went on a tirade against Jihadi militants/terrorists. If the past is any indicator, the Pakistani terrorists will not think twice about blowing him up, as they have any MUSLIM who has spoken against them. So much for Muslim brotherhood.

________________________________________

Lone gets Z security

Mukhtar Ahmad in Srinagar

``A leading light of the separatist conglomerate Abdul Ghani Lone has been accorded Z security by the National Conference Government.

Lone had launched a tirade against militants, especially foreigners, after his return from Pakistan last month.

A top police source said that a high level meeting in Jammu on Friday was convened by the state intelligence chief, to asses the threat perception of the senior leader of the All Party Hurriyat Conference. The meeting was attended by senior police and state security officials.

``He has been categorised as a Z security person, like ministers of the National Conference,`` said the official.

Lone will immediately be provided a bullet proof car and two bullet proof escorts.

Security at his Rawalpora residence has also been beefed up.

State security is rushing another platoon of the state armed police to his residence. The Rawalpora residence of the Peoples Conference leader is presently guarded by armed policemen.

Sources said that it will now depend on Lone whether he would like the state armed police or the paramilitary Central Reserve Police Force.

The state authorities were worried about his security after his recent statements. ``

Farzana #55

I did not say to you. Believe in religion.

I said believe in God.

Once God is with you, you will overcome all the odds.

Not in the proper sense. But you can be a kind of atheist in your approach and still have firm belief in God.

More like Spinoza or Averroes.

ali1 #61
``However, it also keeps the TNT alive and that gives me hope.........130 million Klashnikovs anyone? ``

And I thought TNT was about passports?

btw, I remember clearly your interactions on chowk with another Indian Muslim who made the mistake of being a Ahmediya in your presence. Going by your sentiments expressed then, you definately need fewer than 130 million guns, or you may just land in hot water.

Sadhana

Dear Ms. Versey :

The Kashmiri Pandits that I have had conversations with all state that they were driven out of the valley by terrorists. When some tried to go back, they were warned by their Muslim neighbors that they would be inevitable targets for the terrorists.

Shed your persecution complex -- I think ylh has suffered more abuse than anyone else on these boards, but he keeps on coming back.

-Arun Gupta

Ms. Versey #55, #59

Thanks for responding. Now I understand why so few Indian christians or muslims interact on chowk: Retribution can be swift and painful.

However, it also keeps the TNT alive and that gives me hope.........130 million Klashnikovs anyone?

Again, I thank God and Jinnah for Pakistan!

Farzana, can`t you sue the dhoti clads at that publication?

Ras

#58

The BJP is just about as sincere about making peace as the L-e-T is. This concept about ``peace with honor`` is a farce. It means different things to different groups. There will be a big show about peace talks. They will inevitably break down & each side will blame the other about insincerety.

Unfortunately the divisions between Indians & Pakistanis are just about as deep & irreconcilable as the Isrealis & Palestinians. I just hope that violence wont erupt to the point of an all out war.

Ras (Reply #58):

I had to squirm while watching Dr. Farooq Abdullah on TV completely rubbish the Hurriyat. If you say that the APHC is the de facto medium for the moment, how can you agree to Abdullah’s tantrums? When he had broached the subject of autonomy for Kashmir, I had mentioned that one should go along because it was a step forward. I quite forgot that he was merely a politician.

I respect what you have to say about listening to the point of view of the Pandits who have been rendered homeless, but then we have to take into account many others, like the Dogras and also the Ladakhis who have grievances of their own, and valid ones at that.

“Be careful out there,” you say. Come, come now, you don’t want to be accused of protecting a ‘minority’, do you?! At least here there is no ‘real’ censorship. And if you will excuse a small diversion…

CHOWK CAN TAKE A BOW!

After my post# 55 appeared, ‘that’ paper – after one month of dithering – has summoned the guts to finally publish a letter from a reader who was wondering where I was. (Most of the mail was discarded, according to informed sources.) I had made a special request at the time of the “event”, a boorish use of language in this context, that a note should be inserted saying that my column had been spiked, for I did not want people to assume I had copped out under pressure of controversies. Now, at last the letter-writer is informed that my column has been discontinued. Well, had it been done on the initiative of the people concerned I would have said, “Bravo! Der aaye par duroost aaye.” But the perfect timing makes it clear that it was a mere reaction by someone who has been frantically surfing this website! I can, therefore, only thank Chowk. Here’s looking at you…

Farzana

Speaking of wishful thinking, the following eye opener from the TOI today at :

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/06indi1.htm

Feroz, I guess I was wrong. Where are you these days by the way? And Bilal remains silent?
Very interesting!

RE: Farzana # 54: Thanks for the additional info on the Pandits. But the fact remains that they are homeless and we need to listen to their point
of view.
On the ``Tikka Boti`` issue, believe me, I was not
referring to the delicious nature of the end product but what our people do to the animals before they get to the ``Tikka Boti`` stage!
Be careful out there. You can`t even praise a
recently dead singer these days without getting
some people worked up.

Ras

http://server35.hypermart.net/thefridaytimes
Current issue
Pakistan army and militant Islam
Khaled Ahmed

#53
`` I happen to have a LIFE.........and better things to do than post responses every 5 minutes :-)``

I congratulate you. I am in a happy position to free up some more of your time for the good things in life by informing you that the hydra-headed monster you are looking for is not myself. I post only under the name `sadna` on chowk(or elsewhere) and am an ordinary Indian citizen.

`` Islamists do not have a veto over a final Kashmir settlement.And yes they have tried, unsuccessfully so far, to use their exploits in Kashmir to boost their political fortunes in Pakistan. Check the results of the latest local body polls if you will.``

I am happy on Pakistanis` behalf to hear this. And we seem to be on the same wavelength. I hope you will reread my original post #31 and agree that my opinions expressed there are perfectly valid.

If jihadi or even plain vanilla Islamic organisations have no clout with the general Pakistani public, they have no business to be at the frontlines of Pakistan`s India policy. Moreover learned Pakistani men of letters have no business citing the potentially desteructive threats of these jihadi/Islamic organisations on Pakistan`s polity(and India`s internal security) and Musharraf`s inability to rein them in, as reasons to pressurize Indians.

Sadhana