India-Kashmir-Pakistan: Perceptions on the History of Partition

gymnosophist #86 you write ``Has it once been mentioned anywhere in Pakistan that Prof. Chandrasekhar of the Black Hole Theory fame and Nobel Prize winner in Physics, was born in Lahore?``

You mention one of my favorite people. In response to your complaint, I hereby lay claim to Chandrasekhar as a Pakistani. Being a generous people, we`ll let you Indians borrow him sometimes, though.

gymnosophist!pakistanis do give Khushwant Singh the status of son of the lahore,and he has always been welcome and recieved well in pakistan as some one belonging to the soil of pakistan.dilip kumar when he visited peshawar in 1980s was warmly welcome as son of the city of peshawar by all peshawaris and pakistanis.

would the dehli walas happy that one of the son of their city is ruling pakistan?or should karachiites be glad that the son of their city is No2 in india,(mr L.K.Advani)or hyderabadi sindhis be prould that Mr. Malkani has achieved senior positionin BJP.

Re: sadhna #87

I wouldn`t pay much attention to shankar`s post. Like most of us, he isn`t in charge in India...he`s not even a voter and doesn`t even have a sense of the popular sentiment there...so his rhetoric will go as far as Chowk. Were he to go preach those ideas in India (even in most moderate, middle-class homes), he wouldn`t come back without a fracture or two. Be assured that no matter how bad things get, India will not be going down that road anytime soon.

Ref yasar_arfan #: 78

Continuing my previous post, here is what Mr. Irfan Husain had to say in Dawn:

But if it is any consolation, he and his fellow Ahmadis are not alone in being persecuted. The blasphemy law has been misused blatantly and viciously to imprison and even execute non-Muslims. Usually, this law is invoked to target hapless Christians and Hindus for personal reasons far removed from any real or imagined blasphemy. In the most recent case in a remote town of Balochistan called Dalbandin, the temple and several houses belonging to Hindus were burned down by a mob.

The reason for this barbaric act was that an illiterate Hindu housewife had allegedly distributed sweets wrapped in pages from a textbook that contained religious verses. Even if this true, the fact that she was illiterate did not prevent the local religious worthies from setting a gang of bigoted thugs on her family and their neighbours. And to compound this crime, the police, instead of locking up the leaders of the mob, have instead arrested some of the victims.

We in Pakistan never tire of criticizing what we perceive as religious persecution in India. Indeed, that country has a poor record of safeguarding the rights of its minorities, specially in certain pockets in Gujrat and Orissa. But the fact is that in the eyes of the law, non-Hindus have the right to appeal to the courts for justice if their rights are infringed. In Pakistan, certain specific laws are aimed at non-Muslims, depriving them of some of their fundamental rights, and relegating them to the status of second class citizens. In an imperfect world, the first stage in obtaining rights is their legal recognition by the state and its functionaries.

yasar_arfan, I would like you to read Mr. Husain`s last sentence and try to understand its meaning.

egalitarian_brahmin #82 on a serious note, your history lesson is worse than Vijay Amrit `s. He was at least high school qualified. This in fact makes you suitable to be an heir-par-excellence for the likes of Advani and Thakrey. Let`s all be honest about the definition of Hindu. It is no more a culture thing that you try to espouse. Ask a non-egalitarian Brahmin (a.k.a. real Brahmin) and he will tell you the precise definition of a Hindu.

While you are down right deceptive about the true meanings of ``Hindu``, you are completely ignorant about the events that led to partition of India. Your argument is based on fallacies at a grand scale. I just picked on three, you figure out the rest.

Reply to EB -1

You are dead wrong while saying `` Throughout the world, we have seen instances of the fact that Muslims do not want/like to be ruled by kafirs``. How come Hindus do not want/like to be ruled by Muslims or British?

Reply to EB -2.

You said: ``It is only wise to just assume that a substantial Muslim minority in any given country will opt for autonomy or its own separate state.`` This is totally unwise on your part to assume this. First you beat the crap of a minority e.g. Bihar and Garh Mukteswar in 1946 and then you turn around with these dim-witted assumptions. You are a Brahmin (of Chankya version) aren`t you.

Reply to EB-3.

You said: `` As the reins of power were transferred to the Muslims and kafirs, the Muslims opted for a separate state``. This again shows your primary school level history education. The reality is that Muslims wanted to live in India. Hindus first carved and then kicked out the Muslim dominated states. Off course you have to do a lot more study of history before figuring that out. Again you are not a real Brahmin. Only Brahmins have the sense to study delicate subjects like history.

One can realize why Hindus tend to espouse these theories. They have a serious identity problem, as no one knows that Bharat is a country that came into being in 1947. Heck even Bangladeshis have more recognition than a Bharati.

egalitarian_brahmin #(all), Your chowk-handle clearly depicts all the contradictions that Bharat is all about, i.e. a big confusion created to maintain hegemony of Brahmins. You say you are an egalitarian (classless, independent, democratic, self-ruled, open) Brahmin (upper caste Hindu). Tell me if it is anything but an oxymoron.

Post 75:

Correction: The rest of the world is a silent spectator.

Ref yasar_arfan #: 78

From an old Ardeshir Cowasjee article in Dawn:

An Ahmedi of Mirpurkhas was arrested in 1989 for allegedly distributing a ``Prayer Duel Pamphlet`` and was detained in a police lock-up. While he was under detention Mullah Ahmad Mian Hamadi accused him of ``offering prayers`` and a criminal case (13/88) was registered against him at Tando Adam police station under Section 298 of the PPC. His trial lasted 11 years, his case being heard at various locations - Tando Adam, Sanghar, Hyderabad and Karachi. It was referred to the Sindh High Court on three occasions, and eventually the SHC ordered that the case be transferred to Hyderabad and heard there ``at an early date.``

On May 20 of this year judicial magistrate of Hyderabad, Fida Hassan Mughal, announced his decision and wrote :

``The point for my determination are as under : 1) Whether on 15/1/89 in between 2.30 to 5 p.m. in the lockup of police station Tando Amad, the above named accused being Qadiani offered prayers like Muslims with Sajdah and Rukoo with face towards Kabatullah Shareef by posing himself as Muslim. 2) What offence, if any, the accused has committed.``

He ``reached the conclusion that the prosecution has established its case against accused beyond all shadow of doubt.`` He convicted the accused ``for an offence u/s 298 PPC but looking to the circumstances of the case as accused has suffered the agony of protracted trial for more than eleven years and also remained in jail from 8/2/89 to 29/4/89 when he appeared on bail, for the period of about 2 months and 21 days, I therefore sentence him for the period of 2 months and 21 days which he has already suffered as UTP by giving him benefit of section 382.B Cr.P.C. Accused has also to pay fine of Rs3,000, in default thereof he shall have to suffer S.I. for one month more. The amount of fine is to be paid by accused within one month from today. Accused is present on bail. His surety will remain good till depositing amount of fine by accused. In case of non-payment of amount of fine within one month, the accused will be taken into custody by issuing his NBW and will be sent to jail to serve the period of sentence in default of payment of fine.``During the trial the accused and his advocate, Ali Ahmad Tariq, had to travel thousands of kilometers for their appearances in the various courts. The accused, a meticulous man, claimed that had he kept a proper log it would have shown that by January 2000 the total number of kilometers covered would have amounted to 98,840. Nusrat and his attorney may like to know that this distance is over twice the measurement of the equatorial circumference of Earth (40,076 km), the planet on which they exist.

Mr. Cowasjee then asked, ``Should we not all plead guilty for having made this man suffer for so long?``

What would be your answer?

shankar #85
You ask ``What if Kashmiris want autonomy/independance & they dont want to be part of India or Pakistan?``
Then you say :
``I think Indians, as a whole, would be better off it the country was a loose federation of autonomous nation states.``

I too can ask : what if Indians donot want to be a loose federation of autonomous nation states?

I too can say equivalently ``I think Indian Kashmiris will be better off within the Indian Union instead of setting up to be the target of bearded marauders and world powers looking for strategic footholds in a sensitive region of the world``

Sadhana

Ref yasar_arfan #: 78

Just answer a couple of questions.

Does India have the equivalent of the Huddod ordinance on its law books?

Exactly how much respect and recognition was the Pakistani Nobel Prize winner Abdus Salam given in Pakistan; let me remind you, he was an Ahmadi.

Amartya Sen, the Economics Nobel Prize winner, was feted in Bangladesh as a native son by virtue of him being born there. Has it once been mentioned anywhere in Pakistan that Prof. Chandrasekhar of the Black Hole Theory fame and Nobel Prize winner in Physics, was born in Lahore? Would Pakistanis ever accept a South Indian Brahmin as a native son? Would that be against Islam? Against everything taught in Pakistan Studies?

And exactly what is the new name of the Aligarh Muslim University which, you allege, has been changed by the Indian Government?

egalitarian brahmin,

What if Kashmiris want autonomy/independance & they dont want to be part of India or Pakistan? Should`nt we Indians respect that sentiment? Lets face one simple truth. The GoI doesnt want a plebisite because we know what the result is going to be. So, we make excuses by making demands that realistically wont take place.

I think the dominant discourse among Indians is that if we let Kashmir go, then there will be a domino effect & every other state, province, religious minority will want autonomy/independance & that will be the end of India as a nation.

Since it is such a very fervent belief, I`m sure many Indians are going to pounce on me :) Let me propose an alternative. So what if India disintegrates into autonomous countries? What if the concept of India is a loose federation of autonomous countries like the European Union. Are we worried that Pakistan will come in & pick on the pieces like a vulture on a carcass? Maybe we can have a pact like a common defence strategy like NATO, to discourage them. We can have a common market like Europe.

In our enthusiasm to bind the country together, we are wasting precious time & resources in putting out one fire only to find another fire popping up somewhere else. I think India has`nt progressed is because its too heterogenous a country. There are too many centrepetal forces. It is an artificial union created by the British Raj.

I think Indians, as a whole, would be better off it the country was a loose federation of autonomous nation states. Are the Czechs worse off now that the Slovaks are independant? Are Pakistanis worse off after they lost the Eastern wing?

Pravin:

I`m trying to get Rajans home number in Dallas. You can call his roommate there who has all details of his family back home in Lucknow. Am calling to find out this minute. Please email me at brokeneggshells@yahoo.com at the earliest.

P.S: Give him a big huggie from me.

hamidm #509: It is always enjoyable to read your posts. Specially now, since you have shifted from complete sarcasm, to a mixture of mild sarcasm and some facts. Complete sarcasm can only be interesting for so long :-)

``i sure am glad you are not on the operations planning staff at the pentagon``

``US Special Forces join terror war on ground

WASHINGTON Oct 19: The US-led war against terrorism entered a new phase today when Washington acknowledged its special forces were on the ground in Afghanistan after nearly two weeks of devastating air raids. ``It is at the very, very earliest stage,`` the official said.`` (DAWN, Pakistan)

Maybe someone in the Pentagon read my reply on Chowk :). Apparently, ground troops have started going in.

``westmoreland had a point when he said `` life is cheap in asia`` .........``

Speak for yourself on this one. I am an Asian, and even though my life maybe cheap, I would at least like to think that it is worth something more than a stray, ``smart`` (which really aren`t too smart) bomb flying in from 15,000 ft, and blowing up my living room. I would much rather be killed by an elite Green Beret, raiding my living room, and fighting it out with me. At least, in such a situation, there is a pretty good chance my family will be safe.

The US pilots probably do try to target only military targets. However, it is impossible to aim correctly (even with computers) from 10,000 ft. Heck, I couldn`t even do it from 500 ft. And I know some of the US B-1 and B-52 pilots (old friends from military days). And after one or two beers, those guys couldn`t walk straight and chew gum at the same time. Only slightly better aim than mine.

From a purely, ``body bag`` point of view, your comments are correct. However, I am looking at things from a human rights and long term political point of view.

The US has become so obssessed with zero fatality rates in its wars, that it completely resorts to high altitude bombing. Due to this, the US has launched more ammunition into other countries, from aircraft since WWII, than perhaps all the other countries in the world combined. Due to this, it has killed more civilians in the 90s than other country in the world (the number is in the hundreds of thousands according to human rights US organizations and UN). This makes the US the largest killer of civilians in the world. A well documented fact. Which, in the classical definition of terrorism, makes it the biggest terrorist country in the world (While 90% of OBLs views maybe ridiculous, he does make a point, every now and then).

Of course, if one is an American, then one can just say that non-US lives are cheap, and killing a thousand or so innocent Asian civilians to keep on US pilot (who did sign up in the military to be ready to die, by the way) is alright. And of course the old addage, ``the US military does not target civilians.`` It doesn`t; but ends up killing so many anyways, because if is too scared to go low to the ground.

The World Trade Center bombing is actually a by-product of this, ``Asians is cheap`` policy. One can only napalm bomb, cluster bomb, smart bomb, intelligent bomb, brilliant bomb (yes there is a US military project called brilliant pebbles) bunker buster bomb, satellite bomb, tomahawk bomb, fire bomb (all US inventions) people for so long, until someone retaliates in some perverse manner. This of course does not make the WTC tragedy justifiable. But anyone who denies the link between the two, deserves to be in the Pentagon, even less than me.

Due to this, I think the US will now change its strategy. Asians will remain cheap, but not as cheap as they were before. That is why, you are seeing groud troops in Afghanistan so quickly.

``a mad one-eyed mullah and his homicidal bedouin brother-in-law``

One has to be wary of a country with the above combination. Specially in its domestic policies. However, one also has to be quite wary of the foreign policy of a country that has ICBMs named, ``Peacekeeper.`` While I would not like to live in Afghanistan, I also get a bit scared when my US bomber pilot buddies are told to start carpet bombing the place.

But then again, maybe I am just a stupid Asian :-)

Dost-mittarji, When I read about the vandalism of Taj, I felt a deep sense of shame as an Indian. These people are no different than those who planed down(what else can you say, it was not bombed or missiled) WTC. Don`t know what they achieved by doing this.

shammi #77
``Besides, the French seem to be harboring a chip on their shoulder on account of their being occupied in WWII (with the final rub being that they had to be rescued with British help:). This may explain their need to flex nuclear muscles -- from a neutral observer`s standpoint they do not have a need for nuclear weapons.``

Exactly my point. For the French, it`s an important enough matter of `never again` For neutral observers, India and Pakistan are fighting over nothing. India-China-Pak history unfortunately has too many things to go `never again` over. And as you said earlier, in Europe it took two W Wars to become the overpowering `never again`, I too hope fervently we don`t go that route.

About commonalities between India and Pakistan, IMO that contributes to the problem of safeguarding/building identity, witness chowk.com :-). The German and the French have defined `nationalist` identities they now no longer cross(you donot see a large number of French speakers settling in Germany for example, requiring official recognition of their language and culture). A similar issue of `national identity` may occur within the next few decades in the US when the Spanish-speaking population reaches sizeable numbers.

Finally lets not forget the absolute numbers of people trying to get along here in S. Asia within boundaries and across boundaries, compared to the relatively measly numbers in Europe:-).

Sadhana

shammi #76 They say a fool does the same thing as as wise man. Only, the fool does it much later than the wise man, and after much suffering. Let us pray for wisdom to prevail among our leaders. Given the fascination with weapons among both Indian and Pakistani leaders, I believe I have a right to feel depressed.