India-Kashmir-Pakistan: Perceptions on the History of Partition

Vijay Amrit #228

It`s meaningless to talk about someone `looking like a Hindu.` Do European converts to Hindusim suddently start `looking like Hindus` upon conversion?? Do Aryan Kashmiri Pandits and Dravidian Tamils both `look like Hindus`? If they do, why do they look totally different to each other? Hindu is a religion not race or a nation.

It`s blantanly obvious that you, like all other Indians, define Indian nationhood on the basis of Hinduism. There`s no point attemtping to deny it now because you`ve condemned yourself by what you`ve written.

Jinnah sahib warned us that India would be nothing but a Hindu fascist state. He warned us not to buy all this crap about secularism that Nehru and the Congress were peddling, that India was a Hindu state wearing a secular mask just to impress the world and to decieve us. He told us that because of their majority in the subcontinent Hindus would establish a `tyranny of the majority` and would justify every crime commited against us by appealing to `democracy`. God, are we glad our forefathers listened to him! Sheikh Abdullah fell for your crap and look what happened to him and his people. His grave is protected round-the-clock by dozens of Indian soldiers otherwise Kashmiris would throw his bones to the dogs.

Taikonaut#

I can discuss computer only with people who understand logic or for that matter understand anything at all.

One hand, you get irritated at the thought that you may look like a Hindu or have hindu ancestor and on the other you call other fanatics. ( I bet you must look like a Hindu and that must be just irritating you.)

I think now you are taking some hashish seriously. I have never heard that Hindutva fantatics saying that ``Jinnah did not ask for Pakistan``. Any logical person would conclude that, from what you posted as reply to my question. If you cannot understand the above logic, don`t even try your hand at computers.

Some say when people get old, childhood returns. They become poor in logic and start believing in Santaclause again.

Madeline Albright said once that ``Pakistan is not able to maintain democracy because of India`` (this was before Mushy took over, I think). She inherited her love for Pakistan from her dad, that is what some people say. (This was a figure of speech, don`t try and look for books on genetics now to show that love cannot be inherited).

Realize that both Jinnah and Advani were playing political stunts and are not good people. They are same (I don`t respect either of them). Both took advantage of some existing ground reality. You may be only interested in History and so perhaps cannot understand the current events like Advani. If you find Pakistanis with all their anti-hindu rhetoric reasonable, Jinnah reasonable and Gandhi and Nehru as cunning politician, you need to work on yourself.

When you make extra-ordinary claim, you have to give extra-ordinary proof. Just saying that, in some two speeches you did not find Jinnah asking for Pakistan is not an extra-ordinary proof. It does not even a proove that he did not ask for it.

The above was a lesson in logic, a necessary element before I can talk and discuss programming. If you have any doubt about the above logic feel free to ask. If I have time, I will try to help you.

Vijay

taikonaut,

Do you want to read first hand account of first commandant of Pakistan Military Academy about who started the Kashmir insurgency in 1947 and what was his personal experience about that?

If you are liked ``Josef Korbel``, you will like it even more.

Write if you want to read that. I will gladly provide the reference for everyone to read.

Regards

Vijayamrit #: 222

Just one kind. It is called ``Hindutva Hashsish`` that forces you to go into a Hindutva trance. Use it man, who am I to stop you. I could have piled it higher on you but I am letting it go. Hey I follow examples of Pirthivi Raj, and Raja Porus.

P.S. My offer to discuss computer stuff still stands. History, biology and genetics are not your forte. You don`t even know about Bharati genetics and you want to go international.

nasah #4 Further to my previous post, just realized that GPS does not do recconaisance, but other kinds of satellites do. Hope all this is over soon, and we can go happily back to reading about the IT revolution and the genetics revolution. Damn the terrorists for diverting attention from these revolutions where the US and other developed parts of the world are pushing the frontiers for the benefit of all mankind.

Atleast in one way we can find similarities between the relationship of Iqbal and Jinnah to

that of Scottist freedom fighters William Wallace and Robert Bruce.

:)

YLH

PS I still like Jinnah better though

taikonaut#

What kind of ``hasish`` can make a person think that Pakistan was not asked or created by Jinnah?

What kind of ``hasish`` would make some one get irritated at the thought that one of his ancestor might be a Hindu?

Vijay

Gymnosophist #214

Yes Mr. Fast McGee, this is Jonnie Bombay reporting. Just wanted history quality to be perrrrfect. Is that tooo much to aaaask.

Gurv say kaho hum Bharati hain

P.S. Any space cadet fans out there?

Gymnosophist #177-3

`Hey gymno man` Gurdaspur and the road plan came as a shocker to you. Huh? So bad that you dragged my father through it. Personal attacks are a good way of showing your intellect. Well, I still respect you that you are not living on ``Hindutva hashish`` induced ``perceptions`` of Vijay Amrit.

History shows that there was an elaborate plan to gobble up Kashmir long before October 47. Read Korbel`s book to find out why Nehru got diarrhea and Mountbatten had to go alone to Lahore. After the Imodium AD [a medicine], helped a little Nehru ran straight to UN. Another shocker? Huh? Well don`t drag my family into this one. Jinnah begged to solve this issue on bilateral term, but clever Nehru, et al needed more time to implement there schemes. UN was a good rest area for Bharatia leadership until the Banehal tunnel got completed in the 1950s and diarrhea went away [for non-USA readers, rest stop is a road side relief area for anyone who may be suffering from stomach problems].

Korbel (late father of US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright) writes [korbel 54]:



Sixty thousand Poonchis (Kashmiri Muslims) served in the Indian Army in World War II. They returned (they said) to find hat during the war the Raja of Poonch, under whose mild, if unprogressive rule they had existed tolerably, had been dispossessed by a law suit and that the Maharaja of Kashmir`s direct rule had imposed all the tyrannous taxes of Kashmir and Jammu. They were a tax on every hearth and every window. Every cow, buffalo and sheep was taxed and even every wife. Finally the Zaildari tax was introduced to pay for the cost of taxation, and Dogra troops were billeted on the poonchis to enforce collection.``



These sixty thousand Poonchis were supported by 2000 tribals and the valley of Kashmir was on fire. So the struggle of Kashmir started within Kashmir and not because of Tribals. Also it was less about Islam and more about economics, unlike the point of view supported by Hindutva fanatics.

Pakistani leadership was scared for the first 15 years so they didn`t dare to challenge Bharat. Once they realized they could finally stand up to Bharati leadership, they started helping the insurgency in Kashmir.

Gurv say kaho hum Bharati hain

P.S. `Hey gymno man`: look at the map of Kashmir to find out where Banehal Tunnel is, and why it is important for the occupying army from Bharat.

[korbel 54] ``Danger in Kashmir`` by Josef Korbel, ISBN: 0691075050, Princeton University Press, 1954

Gymnosophist #177-1

Hi Gymnosophist, egalitarian_brahmin #184 says I should address you as `Hey gymno man``, do you mind? He also suggested to use ` jacka$$`, but I have too high a respect for you so I can`t use that. Sorry Mr. Brahmin, my conscious is not allowing me to use this term for anyone let alone Gymnosophist.

So I say `Hey gymno man`` you are getting mad, I can tell. You are attacking my `Daddy` and saying things like `stop talking bullshit`. You were supposed to be ``Sophist-icated`` guy. What happened? I know I challenged your fundamental beliefs and obviously it is too much for you to handle.

You say:

------- start Gymnosophist #177

Jinnah asked for a Muslim homeland and Patel, Mountbatten, Nehru, et al agreed with Jinnah (out of frustration that all their efforts at averting partition were to no avail against Jinnah`s intransigence) that if Muslims could not live with Hindus, then by the same logic, Hindus cannot live with Muslims and demanded that Jinnah get only the Muslim majority areas. Why do you find this so hard to comprehend?

-------- end Gymnosophist #177

Not at all, it is really easy to comprehend. Elementary school history books are filled with this kind of stuff all over Bharat and Pakistan. I remember ``comprehending`` them, but the same time I also believed in Santa Clause. Unfortunately some of us have to grow out of that romantic world.

I like the way you have put `` Patel, Mountbatten, Nehru, et al ``. Yes they were truly et. al (they were a joint company), with one purpose, ``to cut Muslim Indians`` to a size where Hindutva folks can gobble it up.

Instead of lynching Iqbal, read some more about a Lala as well. Just follow another historian from Bengal V.N. Datta (Bengalis have always been intellectual types so things are a lot clearer for them).

In his article: ``Lala Lajpat Rai: a forgotten hero``, V.N. Datta writes reverently about his subject. (www.tribuneindia.com/20001117/edit.htm#5)

start Datta-1

Lala Lajpat Rai ``opposed C.R. Das`s Hindu-Muslim Pact of 1923 and described it as a ``document which shows a regrettable lack of foresight and statesmanship``.

end Datta-1

See he was the anti peace.

-------- start Datta-2

``According to Mahatma Gandhi, Lajpat Rai was an institution.``

end Datta-2

Because he would deliver Lahori bags of money from sahukars to Gandhi Ji.

Again we can blame Iqbal for everything but we must see what Lala Ji said

start Datta-3

``Certainly there was a striking change in his attitude on the Hindu-Muslim question from 1923 onwards. In his Presidential address delivered at a Hindu Mahasabha conference at Calcutta, he exhorted the Hindus to consolidate themselves for safeguarding their interests.``

end Datta-3

Read on my friend:

start Datta-4

Lajpat Rai condemned the use of religion for political ends. But he warned that Swaraj could no longer wait and must be attained without delay, whatever the difficulties. He argued that if communal harmony was not possible, then the only remedy lay in partitioning the country into two parts - Hindu and Muslim. According to this formula, which he devised and put forth in The Tribune on December 14, 1924, the Muslim State would comprise the North-West Frontier Province, Sind, Punjab and East Bengal.``

end Datta-4

Compare this with Lala Ji`s other articles in Tribune (and his letters to C.R. Das) and you will find who was hell bent on kicking Muslas out of Bharat Vursh.

Gurv say kaho hum Bharati hain

Oops, I posted this on the board too...

Egalitarian Brahmin,

Unfortunately I cant go to the Library today but I

will try and present my own view.

The personality of Allama Iqbal is very complex. You people are doing a great job of showing the contradictions of his statements. He was the kind of man who contantly thought and rethought his stance.For example In the 1920s he thought of Jinnah as a WOG, Western Oriented Gentlemen, by 1938 the same detestable wog had become the hope for all Muslims along with Gazi Mustapha Kemal.

However on the issue of what he wanted for the subcontinent, he had spoken to best of my knowledge a greatly autonomous Muslim Power in North West of India and no one can deny that. Allama Iqbal always spoke in terms of Islamic Renaissance, the reinterpretation of Sharia, and the imposition of it in a Modern State. Quite clearly he wanted a Muslim State with Islamic Democracy, an idea which is very complex. His Political ideology is quite clearly stated in

``Reonstruction of Modern Religious Thought`` where he quotes extensively from Zia Golkalp. He especially expounds upon Golkalp`s idea of

``All Muslim states becoming independent and then aligning themselves under the Caliph``. Where as it is unclear whether Iqbal wanted the reinstatement of the Khilafah, because of his intense admiration for Ataturk, but he did want an Independent state for Muslims of India, and he saw that as a transitory step to the Political Unity of the entire Islamic World. In the ``Javed Nama`` he quite clearly is attacking the entire concept of ``Watan``

(country, and the country based Nationalism) and is promoting the idea of Millet(which referred to religious based Nationalism), hence Muslims all over the World are one ``Millet``. So there was no question in Iqbal`s mind of promoting Indian Nationalism over Pan Islamism, as is evident by his Islamic Anthem.

Jinnah, on the other hand, was a staunch Indian Nationalist till late in his life. Even as late as

September 1939 he spoke of bringing the two major

communities Hindu and Muslim together. To him Pakistan was politically inevitable since he could see no resolution with the Congress leadership. Whether to him Pakistan was a bargaining chip or not is a valid inquiry. His speech on 11th August 1947 makes it very clear what he thought of the entire thing when he says,(referring to Hindu Muslim Tension)

``If you ask me this has been the biggest hinderance in India attaining its freedom.Had it not been for this, we would have been free people long ago``.

I am not sure Iqbal would have applauded that statement had he lived. To him Pan Islamism, and hence the transitory Indian Muslim Nationalism was

clearly more important.

I hope my reply helps.

YLH

ZZ#212

(Egalitarian_Brahmin, I hope it is not you posting as ZZ.)

Well ZZ, what can I say, Hindutva fanatics are going to shut up an innocent Bharati. I am hurt, and I am tired (intellectually speaking) after all the attacks by Brahmins and Gymnosophists. I really need Dost Mitter to come help me out. Please Mitter, where are you J.

ZZ you don`t even qualify for a response. Suddenly I thought of another dear chowki ``YLH`` and I forced myself to put few lines here.

You wrote:

------- ZZ-212 start

Tilak died in 1920. And it was after a jail term for six years in Mandale.

----- ZZ 212 end

A typical Hindutva fanatic should know that his communal grand daddy, Tilak died after his trip to England. What kind of books have you been reading ZZ?

He was given a ticket to England by the mill-owners, so that their new recruit ``Gandhi`` can quietly take over the lobbying job. A year later (Make it 13 months. Happy now?) Tilak comes back and dies. The jail incidents happened much earlier in Tilak`s life.

(Please don`t re-post Mr. Brahmin #166. I have read them every time Mr. Brahmin cut and pasted it)

Gurv say kaho hum Bharati hain

Taikonaut,

I just want to say that I`m really impressed by your knowledge and your analyses. Keep it up.

RSaxena #201

Certainly, we cannot hope to keep up with India in an arms race. That`s nothing new - it`s a fact we recognized a very long time ago. But you should have learnt by now that there are lots of other ways we can fight and hurt India. The messed up state of Pakistan`s economy and society is nothing new either. Over the last 53 years we have been through civil war, religious and ethnic strife, dismemberment, countless millitary dictatorships, massive scale corruption by the bureacratic and political elite - but we`re still here poking our fingers into India`s wounds. You can be assured that we`ll be doing the same 50 or 100 years from now.

We don`t want things to be this way, but you`ve left us with no choice but to make you pay a heavy price for your occupation of Kashmir and your hegemonistic ambitions in South Asia.

Harpreet #202

Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus were joint `prioprieters` of Punjab. If we could not live together then it was right that Punjab be partitioned with each community getting a proportional share of the country. The point I`m trying to make is that we the Muslims under the leadership of Jinnah sahib partitioned an entity that was nothing more than an administrative unit in the world empire of the British. The Hindus, on the other hand, on the basis of religious nationalism partitioned a nation.

Indian propagandists constantly malign Jinnah sahib`s name. They accuse him of being a religious bigot who drew an artifical border between Lahore and Amritsar and who separated people who were one. How the Indian propagandists have gotten away with peddling such a blatant and outrageous lie for so long I will never be able to understand. It is a telling indictment of our supposed `intellectual elites` that this falsehood is hardly ever challenged.

It was Gandhi, Nehru, Congress and the Hindus who drew the `artificial` line between Lahore and Amritsar, not Jinnah sahib. Millions of people were uprooted to satisfy the demands of the Hindus of Punjab not the Muslims. Hindus shouldn`t harp on about this `tragic divide` between Lahore and Amritisar because their forefathers are responsible for it. I`m not saying that they had no right to do it. Just that they got what they wanted so what the hell are they complaining about now? And why are they blaming Jinnah sahib and the Muslims for it?

One other thing. The partition of Punjab was not simply a reaction to the TNT. Punjabi Hindus were communulized long before the TNT was proposed. Before the Hindus under the Arya Samaj spread religious hatred and intolerance the divide in Punjab was along tribe and caste lines. If you were a Muslim Gujjar, for example, you would follow a Hindu Gujjar leader but NEVER a Muslim Rajput one. The concept of religious nationalism just didn`t exist.

I don`t know if I`ve made myself any clearer, but I look forward to reading your response.

Ref ZZ #: 212

You said {Taikonut 206: What a crap piece of history. Tilak died in 1920. And it was after a jail term for six years in Mandale. Dont tell me that he was having a lobbying job from baniyas and was depressed since he could not do it. About taxation in those times, `Problem of Rupee` by Ambedkar is a good reading.}

`Taikonaut` is Chinese for `space cadet`.

That explains his postings.

nasah #4 I think you are reaching conclusions to quickly. In fact, the US military seems to have done a good job of learning from the vietnam experience, and so far have proved effective with hitting the Afghans at times and places of their own choosing and without establishing a physical presence that the Afghans can hit back. I think the overall strategy (multidimensional fronts, broad-based global support), tactics (as described above) and technology (where there are entire tracking systems ranging from GPS satellites which handover more detailed reconnaisance to U2s which handover to more detailed reccy by drones is absolutely first rate.

And let us pray that they find Osama soon along with his gang of murdering thugs.