The Islamist and Hindutva Politics: Identities of Outlook and Objectives

Ref Dionysus #: 376

[Why won`t you answer my questions?? Babur tore down the Ram Mandir and built a mosque on top of it. He and his descedents oppressed and humiliated Hindus for 200 years. Right? So why the hell did high-caste Hindus like Mirza Jai Singh, Raja Mann Singh, Todar Mal and countless others serve the Mughals so faithfully while their coreligionists were being oppressed? Why did they accept jagirs and lands from the Mughals? Why did they give their women to the Mughals?]

Let history show the true colors of Akbar.

``[Chitor] The great Sesodia stronghold... was difficult to approach and had tried the ingenuity of such redoubtable commanders as Ala-ud-din Khalji and Sher Shah. Akbar pressed the siege... It became one of the great set-pieces of the age, avidly followed, gloriously recorded and in the end bloodily concluded. With flaames engulfing their womenfolk, the defenders sallied forth in another suicidal jauhar. It was followed by Akbar`s gratuitous massacre of some twenty thousand non-combatants.``- John Keay, India: A History.

In view of such unparallelled savagery, the Rajput kings made peace with Akbar, giving him a daughter in marriage so that they were free to follow their religion and protect their subjects. No doubt personal motives also played a part in their decision to abandon hostilities against the Mughals. But, if not for the sacrifice of a few Hindu princesses to the lust of Mughal kings, all of Rajputana would either have been depopulated or converted by force into Muslims.

You, Dionysus, seem to exult in the savagery of these proto-Nazis of the 12th century. Actually, the Nazis were kind, compared to the sultans of Delhi, since they didn`t kill the population wholesale in occupied territories. Your bloodthirsty ecstasy at the excesses of the Islamic thugs is proof that one may not have to go to a madrassah to turn out to be a fiend in human form.

Ref Harpreet #: 400

[Presumably you would also like to see those people like Advani and Thackeray terminated with extreme prejudice for their roles in the post Ayodhya riots?

You cannot decry 1984 and in the next breath not mention 1992..........]

People like Jagdish Tytler were clearly identified as those who incited mobs. Successive Congress govts have prevented his arrest and trial and hence my suggestion for justice.

I view Bal Thakre as a thug on a par with Tytler. If you think I am a BJP supporter, you are mistaken. For his part in the Bombay riots, Thakre deserves to be hanged.

As for Advani, he incited the destruction of the Babri Masjid. He can be held culpable for creating the atmosphere that led to loss of lives in Ayodhya but he is not a murderer in the same sense as a Thakre or a Tytler.

harimau,

{{Have you even thought how those totally naked Naga sannyasis keep alive in the winter in North India when ordinary mortals succumb to the cold wave?}}

No, but I`m sure you`ll be thinking about them while youre pathetic butt freezes. Make sure your lingum stays warm.

Mr Rashid #402

Inspite of the extreme provocation caused by your unwarranted comments, I *refuse * to get into a mud-slinging match with you. So according to you, I am an ``uneducated`` trained techie, having no ``Ilm``. I agree with you. I am glad that I have no ``Ilm`` after looking at the so called ``Ilm-wallas`` like yourself. Now comming to the topic, I have also done some research on Kashmir and related issues, and have reached that it is not what you think it is. I am ready to discuss with you anytime, but let`s leave it since you are obviously not in a mood to listen to someone else`s viewpoint. You would rather prefer senseless personal attacks to an objective discussion. Thank God, I have no ``Ilm``. I am free to exercise my logic and reasoning to analyse both the sides of an issue that an Ilm-walla might probably miss.

Sincerely

PS Ilm, in my dictionary means having capability to analyse objectively an issue without bringing irrationality into the picture.

Ref shankar #: 401

[Keep your money, pal.]

You mean, there are fools who pay you money? Of course; they are crazy, aren`t they? Tell me, Quack, how do I get into this racket?

[Free advice; dip your hiney in the sacred waters off Allahbad & stay there.]

The expected 70 million people who are and will be going to the Kumbh Mela in Allahabad this year -- and people who share their spirit -- are those who will keep Hinduism alive despite the loss of their shrines. They will carry the flame of faith in their hearts but will not use it to burn down somebody else`s home. People like you are probably deriding the faith of these people in your drawing rooms as you sip your cocktails while watching the news of the Kumbh Mela on TV and commenting on their stupidity.

Have you even thought how those totally naked Naga sannyasis keep alive in the winter in North India when ordinary mortals succumb to the cold wave? But, if scientific inquiry was your forte, you wouldn`t be practicing voodoo in a white coat.

Pankaj #389

Even after your degree you think that killing of humans is right because they are demanding their rights.

Even after your degree you think that Indian forces did not enter Kashmir on the request of Kashmiri Rajah and later gobbled it up.

Then a non degreed illiterate in your country thinks the same way.

I don`t think you are educated. At most you have a degree to perform your technical work. If that is called education by you then I would say that you don`t have ``Ilm``

harimau,

{{Dr. Headshrinker will diagnose paranoia so I shall not give him the pleasure of getting one more patient, even a non-paying one}}

Keep your money, pal. Free advice; dip your hiney in the sacred waters off Allahbad & stay there.

Harimau:

Presumably you would also like to see those people like Advani and Thackeray terminated with extreme prejudice for their roles in the post Ayodhya riots?

I know what people with power can do. It doesnt matter if it is Sikh or Muslim, Congress or BJP..... your rhetoric ends in killings.



You cannot decry 1984 and in the next breath not mention 1992..........

Your path will lead India to a cursed future. If you want to discuss historical matters disspassionately do so. But words DO mean things in India. That is why we have to watch what we say.

Harpareet,

Thankyou for your support. I am glad that finally

there is an Indian on Chowk I can call my friend.

:)

Yasser

Akash,

That is old news. By the way arent you the one who was claiming that Jinnah was a parsi? Kindly read more before you utter historical fallacies. Jinnah though extremely liberal was a Khoja Shia Muslim and then an ithna ashari Shia. And you had the audacity to accuse me, who is the perhaps much more well read than you are to check my facts. Is there no fairness?

Read and then write.

Thankyou

Yasser

PS It is also a fact that Jinnah was anti Khilafat Movement, a supporter of Ataturk, and the only Pro Khilafat Leader in the Congress was Gandhi.

ylh#391,

Ignore Harimau ylh, you describe him as an Indian friend, believe me he is no friend of any Indian. The man is a clown. He is trying to goad and insult everyone. Your opinions are well known to everyone you dont need to justify them to someone like him.

regards

Harpreet

Ref Harpreet #: 394

[Pankaj, these wounds will also begin to heal when those responsible for inciting the riots are fully prosecuted by the courts, and the bai-sharaam Congress party gets rid of the damned Gandhi progeny.]

In one of my replies to JSandhu, which Chowk editors in their wisdom did not publish (should I claim it was deliberately withheld to paint me as anti-everybody-not-Hindu, Dr. Headshrinker will diagnose paranoia so I shall not give him the pleasure of getting one more patient, even a non-paying one) I said my reaction to Indira Gandhi`s assassination was that the killers should have gotten Rajiv Gandhi so as to eliminate the dynasty. Well known thugs who were involved in those riots such as Jagdish Tytler should be terminated with extreme prejudice because they will never be brought to justice because they will be able to start mob riots if they are arrested as Indira Gandhi did when she was arrested after the Emergency.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/22inter.htm
For those Pakistani bleeding hearts who want Indians `to mind their own business` simultaneously preaching about `Pakistani assistance to free oppressed peoples in India`.

Sadhana

Pankaj#378,

I agree with every word you say with regards to Punjab. I personally could never suppport the Congress party but the Congress party does not equal Hindus. As you know Pankaj, Sikhs and Hindus are branches of the same tree. Hindu Punjabis and Sikhs are highly intermixed culturally. My family is part Hindu-Punjabi. Some people cannot understand this and only want to see hate prevail.

Pankaj, these wounds will also begin to heal when those responsible for inciting the riots are fully prosecuted by the courts, and the bai-sharaam Congress party gets rid of the damned Gandhi progeny. But it seems that will never happen. It is also for this reason that I oppose people like Harimau and his destructive creed of hate.

regards

Harpreet

``I hope you understand the significance of the attack on the Harmandir sahib. It says a lot about your position in the Indian Union. Accept it or not, you`re colonized subjects now, mate.``

One thing I will never accept Dionysus is being patronised and lectured to by a condescending Pakistani about the status of the Sikhs in India.

I know perfectly well the role Zia and his minions and the Pakistani state played in the conflagration of the 1980`s. We all do. We are not stupid. We all know the fun you doubtless had reading the reports about murders and killings.

You always talk about the ``hegemony`` and ``colonising`` of India, yet it seems to me that you are an avowed Punjabi Muslim nationalist.Punjabi Muslim nationalism is just as assertive and hegemonic as any Indian creed (I will never forget the reaction in the drawing rooms of Lahore after they heard of the rape of Bengali women by the proud Punjabi army of Pakistan..... it would improveme their ``genes`` I seem to remember reading....)

My point is Dionysus the crocodile tears for Sikhs that you cry dont fool me or anyone else. Shed them for the Sindhis and Bengalis and Mohajirs and Baluchis and Shias and Ahmadiyas before questioning or interfering in Sikh affairs with a hidden agenda. By all means you have every right to comment if you are genuinely concerned, but I sense you are not, so please do me a favour.

I am not so crass or stupid to claim Pakistan should be dismembered because of these political grievances and the violence of the state. I cant be bothered to talk about the reality of Khalistan but maybe one day we can talk about it. To many Pakistanis though the Sikhs are only seen as chamchay to be manipulated to get at the hated ``Hindus``. And believe me Dionysus, that makes me very, very angry to see such two-faced ``compassion``.

I love Punjabi culture and I am fascinated by Pakistan because as the majority community in that country the divided Punjab means that at some level, somewhere I dont know how, Pakistan is also a part of my identity. I am drawn to it by invisible forces I dont understand. Alot of people talk about Punjabiyat and how the Punjab should have gained independance itself. I have never been inclined to agree being a realist as well as a romantic. These days even less so.

regards

Harpreet

http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000625mag-taliban.htmlThe Education of a Holy Warrior

THE UNIVERSITY OF JIHAD

In a Pakistani religious school called the Haqqania madrasa, Osama bin Laden is a hero, the Taliban`s leaders are famous alums and the next generation of mujahedeen is being militantly groomed.

By JEFFREY GOLDBERG Photographs By Laurent Van Der Stockt



On campus at the Haqqania madrasa, which has ``placed`` more students in the Taliban leadership than any other school in the world





About two hours east of the Khyber Pass, in the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan, alongside the Grand Trunk Road, sits a school called the Haqqania madrasa. A madrasa is a Muslim religious seminary, and Haqqania is one of the bigger madrasas in Pakistan: its mosques and classrooms and dormitories are spread over eight weed-covered acres, and the school currently enrolls more than 2,800 students. Tuition, room and board are free; the students are, in the main, drawn from the dire poor, and the madrasa raises its funds from wealthy Pakistanis, as well as from devout, and politically minded, Muslims in the countries of the Persian Gulf

``

All those interested visit the above site. Yes,JIHAD IS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN FOR PAKISTANIS.

Good luck