The Islamist and Hindutva Politics: Identities of Outlook and Objectives

Attacks are fine, but when Indians like Harimau attribute such BS as Medressah education and Pro Khilafat BS to me ... thats just too much.

I appeal to everyone not to deliberately try and misrepresent my views. I have made my Kemalist viewpoint very clear, then why is there a need on the part of our Indian friends to misrepresent me??

Harimau,

When have I sung the praises of the Khilafat? Have I not made my secular Pakistani Nationalist stance very clear? Is my admiration for Ataturk not evident????????

Kindly read before you write!!!!!!!

Krashid#387

``What do you think Indian forces were doing for the last 10 years.``

What do you think jihadis were doing for the last 10 years.

``If they could do more they would have done it.``

True, actually the weakness lies with us. Indians will make sure that ``they``(authorities) can do more in future.

``As far as crossing the International border. Lets do it also.``

I dont know from where did you find this ridiculous suggestion in my writing. On the contrary, I have always supported LoC to be made permanent border and elevating Kashmir to a status of completely autonomous state from the present state of partial autonomy it has. Your itch to cross the border is beyond my understanding.

``Why posing as educated``

Well Mr. Rashid, I dont ``pose`` as educated, I am. I express my opinions as they are. If you dont like, you are free to disagree.

Sincerely

Krashid#387

Ok Mr. Rashid, to each his own. There is no use bickering about morality, justice etc when it was dead long back and buried deep in the earth. You people(not necessarily you) train jihadis for murdering people on this side of the border and we shall reply back in the same language. Let this human tragedy continue. Only when one side is vanquished, will it come to a stop. The loss of life and property that comes with it is inevitable and should be accepted as a necessary means of survival. Only time will pronounce the outcome. Most of a billion people of India will continue to support army to crush the jihadis and I understand Pakistanis will make a similar attempt to crush Indian people and forces. Have your wish, let the war continue.

Sincerely

Pankaj #386

What do you think Indian forces were doing for the last 10 years.

If they could do more they would have done it.

As far as crossing the International border. Lets do it also.

Why posing as educated.

Please read the following news. It is published by all the leading dailies including dawn.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/21jk.htm

``Seven persons -- four civilians and two soldiers -- were killed and 35 others wounded when militants blew up a state transport bus at village Chattul near Kreeri in northern Barramullah district Sunday morning``

This finally seals the fate of Ceasefire. Look at what happened in the last two months. More than 60 soldiers were killed with their hands tied to their back in the wake of Govt order of not initiating any fresh combats till fired. At the very beginning, six Hindus were kidnapped and shot, followed by a few Sikhs. An attack on Red fort followed. An unsuccessful attempt to assasinate Faruk Abdullah was made and PM Vajpayee was threatened with an attack on his PMO. A few days back, an unsucccessful bid was made to storm Srinagar airport killing many armymen. And now finally, an attack on State Transport bus carrying passengers! Enough is enough. No more ceasefire.Alas the Lashkars and Hizbuls had their way finally. I wish India could launch a massive retaliatory strike on these jihadis, much like Israil. These jihadis can understand only the language of force.

Ref Harimau # 379

[Xxabbu: did you find the story about the killing of non-combatants in Afghanistan heart-wrenching? ]

I find many incidents heart-wrenching including the ones you mention. What was really depressing in your case was the likelihood that your kids` childhood might might have been poisoned by all your bigotry and insecurity.

I believe you are capable of cogent thought, despite my earlier diagnosis. So why dont you answer the question most everyone has asked already : Why persecute todays muslims for crimes real and imaginary committed by muslim invaders who lived centuries ago in a different, crueller age? In what way can todays muslims be said to be responsible for these excesses ? Are these people time travellers who went back to Babar`s time and became part of the horde which sacked Ayodhya?

Can you get it in your head that wrongs committed in another time (Babar, etc) or another place (Afghanistan, Chechnya, whatever) cannot justify a wrong here and now. That kind of logic is reserved solely for girlfriends : ``Oh, so I am a flirt, huh? What about all those times that YOU flirted, specifically on 22 Jan 99, 15 Dec 99, 3 Feb 00, 12 Sept 00, 1 Jan 01, ... ??`` (this conversation is by no means over; there are MANY more juicy grudges yet to be retrieved from long-term memory where they were stored for precisely this occasion. I`m sure all you guys here know what I mean, right?)

xxabbu

Dionysus

Extremely sorry for leaving Manu Smriti Part of your questions!

No, Sir, in India no legislation is made after consulting Manu and no judiciary go through this treatise before giving a verdict. You must be finding it strange keeping in view issues regarding Riba, Wali and Sharia Court prnouncing Law but then India and Indians take life a little differently.

Manu was a great thinker but his suggestions not suited to modern times are not to be noticed. I am sure You understand. If not, please feel free to get back.

Dionysis

You have been asking answers to your two questions.

Here these are:-

Rape of lower caste women by upper castes?

Reasons are same as those of Waderas and Maliks doing to women working in their fields or in their houses or living in their villages with ONE DIFFERENCE.

In India, these lower castes or classes started asserting themseves about a decade back and so upper castes or class tortures get it back where it hurts most. Please get acquainted with recent developments in Bihar and UP. It is always tit for tat from both sides. Women being most vulnerable in any society, they are always used as pawns.

Upper Castes Hindus cosying up with invaders?

Reasons are same as those of Mir Jaffer and his ilk. Do go through some elementary books on sociology, political science and economics to get some enlightenment. In any case, these traitors are not India`s heros but since history is studied scholarly in India, they are not ignored either. By the way, was Jahangir`s mother concubine? Then I must say that history of Pakistan will have to be written again. Imagine, Pakistan being proud of concubine`s children!

Do another Murder of History.

Happy Reading and Best of Luck!

More Questions?

Harimau #379

So you find it heart bleeding if 100 Muslims die of hands of Muslim in Afghanistan in fighting between equals.

But your heart soars if hundreds of Muslims die in Kashmir at the hands of security forces in custody.

Does this Kofi Annan has any shame left to enquire into those 100 deaths and leave 70,000 deaths in Kashmir without inquiry because it can force Afghanistan with terror and cannot force India even to allow UN observers.

In response to harimau (Reply # 379)
Dear Harimau:

Your statement: ``Individually, I have no problem with any Muslims.``

My reply: Any Muslim? How about Imam Bukhari of Delhi? I am sure, you have major problems with him as individual and for his rhetoric.

Your statement suggests that you have problem with Muslims as a collectivity. If so, what needs to be done such that you emphathize with the Muslims as a collectivity, at least in India?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Misunderstandings start early in our part of the world. In an article by Haider Cheema in the Friday times, he points out that this mindless hatred is propagated in India too and he is challenging Indians to show same outrage on their side.

The link:

http://thefridaytimes.hypermart.net/

OUTRAGE (Opinion)

Some excerpts:

``Another thing I find amusing, as well as irritating, about PTV is the style of presenting a disaster occurring in India. Any accident in India, even a natural calamity like a flood or a cyclone, is announced so triumphantly on khabarnama that it gives the impression that Pakistan was wholly responsible for the incident. The beaming newsreader practically bursts with happiness as he announces the number of casualties in a given train crash or flood. Basic humanity does not stretch across the border, there is a sickening smugness in the way we are told of the women and children killed by dacoits, typhoid epidemics or droughts. This shows how obsessed we are with India`s losses.``

``Though we can play cricket with India, watching them do well would simply be unpatriotic. After the 1999 world cup, PTV `sports time` started showing all the world cup matches in order, but when it came to the Super Six match between India and Pakistan, which India won, the match was skipped, and never shown at all.``

I just heard on the National Public Radio that the Taliban, after taking an opposition-held town in Afghanistan, shot dead 100 non-combatant civilians. Secretary General of the UN Kofi Annan has called for an inquiry and speedy rendering of justice. Rationalize that for me.

I know the problem with you namby-pamby Hindus. You are all thinking: My neighbor is a Muslim and he is such a nice person. Why, he just delivered us a box of the most delicious sweets for Eid.

Individually, I have no problem with any Muslims. They have come as friends to eat in my house and I have been welcomed into their homes as a friend. (This must come as a shock to you, Dr. Headshrinker, because all of a sudden your earlier diagnosis is not all that accurate). But anytime you get a critical mass of them together, you have the potential for serious harm. Again, I am not talking about the Pakistani cardiologist in Queens or the Electrical Engineer in San Jose. I am talking about the lower socio-economic class which can be whipped into a frenzy. Not that the cardiologist or the electrical engineer can be excused if they send money to some outfit in Iran, Pakistan or Lebanon for fighting the infidels.

This potential for harm to outsiders is what the world has to guard against. Perhaps we need to also do something about the Islamic venom that turns on its own people a la Afghanistan today but we all need to douse our houses with water before we start thinking of helping the arsonist`s family.

Xxabbu: did you find the story about the killing of non-combatants in Afghanistan heart-wrenching? I bet you don`t find it as bad as when Indian soldiers shoot dead 3 civilians in Kashmir for whom your heart will bleed profusely.

Harpreet and Dionysis

Mr. Dionysis, I went through the web-site you provided. It still does not confirm your observations about ``habit`` and ``routine``. Mr Dionysis, I have been to villages(our family migrated to city a generation back) as well as in the city and I know the ground reality better than you. There is little doubt that caste discrimination still exists, but gone are the days when lower castes can be suppressed. In UP, all the villages which have more than a certain percentage of Dalits/SCs were declared Ambedkar villages(my village being one), such that only a member from SC/Dalit can stand for the Gram Panchayat elections. All this is inviting a backlash from feudal lords, who perceive it as a danger for their power. These Ambedkar villages, receive aid as a matter of priority to the other villages. Of Course, people of upper caste, at least in villages, still do not marry their daughters to a Dalit on a regular basis but this is their privilege. The point I am making is that very significant changes are occuring at the root level in Indian society because of democracy, that seek to distribute political/social/economical power equally to empower people as a whole. In the cities, it is stupid to assume that anyone from upper caste can harass a Dalit. However I have also observed that in some rural areas, where the hold of feudals is too strong, some incidents of unfair treatment do occur. But then,destruction of a deep rooted social system, is sure to take some time. The constitutional infrastructure to guarantee everybody his legitimate right is already present; the political structure in the form of democracy is also there that inherently takes care of grievances of the masses; the economy is opening up and booming. These changes will produce a synergistic effect in the near future.

Harpreet

Both of us know only too well who was responsible for Operation Blue Star. It was an evil political game played by Indira Gandhi and she paid for it. IG(Indira Gandhi) tried to project an ultra-extremist Bhindarawale to counter the influence of Akali Dals. By weakening Akali Dal, she wanted to see Congress in power in Punjab. But the wrong means never produce the right results. Bhindarawale, the epitome of extremism, that IG erected, turned against his own master(ie IG). He accepted the aid of Pakistan to garner a huge arsenal of firearms and took position inside Golden temple. What happened is history. The Congress workers led mob attacks on innocent Sikhs outside Punjab, while the extremist elements ravaged Hindus inside Punjab. However very soon the people realised their foolishness, and the peace was restored. Now Punjab is once more a flourishing state. Not much love was lost between the Sikhs and Hindus and many Sikhs/Hindus never forgave Congress for the tragedy. Little wonder Sikhs preferred to vote for BJP/Akali combine instead of Congress in the elections. This shows that there was not a religious dimension to the tragedy as is the case in Kashmir conflict. An interesting fact: The recent Planning Commission report says that Punjab has the LOWEST percentage of people living below poverty line ie 11% against the national average of 33%. Peace and prosperity has once again returned to Punjab. No Mr Dionysis, Punjab REFUSES to share the fate of Kashmir. Apka jihad aapko mubarak ho. Sikhs and Hindus always lived like brothers. Hindus will remain forever indebted to Sikhs for the sacrifice they made to protect Hidus from tyrants like Aurangjeb. I again invite you to come to Punjab, see for yourself the prosperity, and ask Sikhs if they want a separate land. You will get your answer.

Sincerely

Dionysous#

``Neither Harimanu nor any other Indian bothered disputing my contention that high-caste Hindus rape and molest low-caste Hindus as a matter of habit and routine.``

Nobody will bother you to answer that question. Do you ever wonder why? I will tell you why. A reason you will love. ``Hindus are inherently bad people. They can do things like that and not accept it as mistake. They are very bad. They even do it today. They are not Human beings but must be treated like animals.``

If you can believe in things like that, then it is better to get you before you get us.

Harimau before you bounce on me note it is written is sarcasm.

Harimau#

If you are saying this, I agree with you. Destruction of Babri Mosque is not same as what Aurangzeb did. To do something similar to Aurangzeb will be to destroy some mosque, which is without controversy in a very religious place of Muslims. The equivalent will be to destroy some mosque in Mecca/Medina or to a lesser extent to destroy some very important mosque like Jamma masjid in New Delhi which is without controversy (as far as my knowledge goes, Jamma Masjid is without any controversy).

If we were like pakistanis, we would be repeating this difference in every post. If were like them every Indian will have this difference memorized and can repeat it like parrot even in his/her sleep.

This point will be hammered so much, that the other party will so no point in reasoning with them and agree with them.

I also want a Ram Temple in Ayodhya. Hindus should be able to build at any place they want it in Ayodhya. (Of course, if it is harming the Muslims residents economically, we should take care that, they can live there and become 5 times more richer. That way we will show them that it is really important to us, and we will be putting money where our mouth is.) I do feel insecure when I have to fight for something that important for Hindus. So I do start thinking what next? I know we are in majority, but things stop looking like that.

(I know all chowkwallahs take pride in not feeling insecure. Even if you assume that I am a great-grand child of rape-victim. So what? I am no lesser human being. My insecurities are as real and baseless as are Pakistanis fear that India is out to get them. As baseless as is Indian muslims fear that every Indian will become a Hindu fascist. I think my insecurity is as reasonable as theirs.)

We should do justice so that insecurity goes away and we live peacefully. Indian Hindus insecurity can be taken care of by building the Ram Temple. What about Indian Muslim insecurity? That is why atonement is necessary.

The other difference is, you want to make Hindus very aggressive. I want them to remain soft. I would rather try to make other religion soft. Making a whole society agressive is very dangerous. Sikhism is only religion which seems, at least to Indians, to have been able to keep a balance between tolerance and aggressivness.

See what happens when you start hating a religion. You may even do not appreciate Fairdinkum. You did appreciate him with just one line at the end, but that was lost in the many things you said before it. He was the one who said that the ``He is not surprised to see the army men at sea when realising the problems in soceity.``. The armymen was saying that his religion was solution for everything. I rhink he is the single Pakistani, who (seems to me)completely untouched by fundamentalism. He likes most Indians seems to understand the right place for religion. (Though, I think he probably overreached when he said Indians lost to invaders delibrately. I guess it should be looked within the context in which he was saying. Invaders won because they were better at war and were using new ideas of warfare. Britisher defeated both Pakistanis and Indians and so can chinese do today. Not because they are more agressive. If you want to see how Babur used to fight, look at Britania encyclopedia onthe web).

before the religious zealots bounce on me:

I agree, religion can solve all problems. To me, that basically means if everyone is religious in the right way there won`t be a problem. In other word if everyone is nice then there won`t be any problems. It is an obvious fact. I do like the emphasis on an individual being more religious. To me this means urging individuals to be more religious so we produced better society. Dealing with the changing realities of today, cannot be addressed with something 1000s of years old like Vedas or any other religious text. Somethings always remain true, like be honest, be kind, be just. What changes most with time is the meaning of being ``just``.

INDIAN EXPRESS EDIT PAGE JAN 5,2001

The Politics of Paranoia

Ultimately, which is more dangerous -- phobia or frenzy

by Bharat Gupt

``Polity as Theatre`` by Prof. Harbans Mukhia (IE 28.12.2k) is the usual plea for the Great Need to White-wash History and to blame politicians, BJP in particular, of arousing frenzy for mobilisation. How else could he proclaim that ``Historical evidence regarding the existence of a Ram Temple beneath the Babri Masjid is not the issue: it is one of political direction and social vision.``

For all these years we have been told that India never recorded facts but churned out myths, and now a search for facts is to be abandoned for what, new social myths based on suppression. How many histories are we going to push under the carpet? The subjugation Australia, Americas and Africa by colonial Europe, of Druids by Romans, of Greeks by Turks and so on and on.

The solution lies not in suppressing historical wrongs, but in admtting mistakes and also strongly emphasising that nobody can seek compensation for the ancestral misdeeds from the present day peoples. However, when suppression becomes the order of the day, it invites the inevitable reaction, even as frenzy.

Whatever mobilisation the Sangh Parivar has been able to manage on the Ayodhya issue is a result of the unfounded phobia created by the Congress Party and the Communist Left that any public discussion, even in academic circles, about the history of Islamic iconoclasm against Hindu temples and culture cannot but result in witch-hunting of the Indian Muslims.

This phobia gave ample cause for the BJP to term it as Muslim protectionism and cash it for the consolidation of the Hindu vote. The unfortunate thing is that the Congress and the Marxists still persist in whipping up this phobia just as they believe that talking or teaching religions (please note there are no religious studies here from school to universities) can only lead to riots.

Islamic iconoclasm, which does not mean historical plunderings only, but also the present day Islamic fundamentalist ideology knocking at our borders day and night, of not accepting iconophilia (not just of Hinduism but of all kinds in its broadest cultural and philosophical sense) needs to be addressed , discussed and engaged in India.

This does not at all mean seeking revenge, compensation or demonising the Muslims but it certainly means acceptance of a modernity and plurality that respects idolatry. The Marxist lobby with its own prejudice against religion as ``the opium of the masses`` finds no utility in such discussions and continues with the usual phobia-mongering.

If in the past decades, a calm scrutiny of Islamic iconoclasm and its doctrine of exclusivist theocratic statehood had been undertaken without the generation of this politically motivated fear-syndrome, results would have been much better for an ideological adjustments between the Muslims and Hindus because neither the majority of Indian Muslims support iconoclasm (or even wish to ostracise the Hindu modes of worship as so many of them have already accepted these in Sufi syncretism) nor are the majority of Hindus so moved by the ancient sites to become vengeful.



Bharat Gupt, Associate Professor, Delhi University