The Islamist and Hindutva Politics: Identities of Outlook and Objectives

Harpreet #369

I don`t hate you. Don`t be silly. I`m just having some fun with Harimanu. I seriously hope you`re not trying to blame Pakistan for the hundreds of thousands of Sikhs killed by India. We didn`t force the Sikhs to fight and we didn`t force the Indians to slaughter them. We didn`t force Indira Gandhi and the Indian army to rocket-attack the Harmandir sahib. I hope you understand the significance of the attack on the Harmandir sahib. It says a lot about your position in the Indian Union. Accept it or not, you`re colonized subjects now, mate.

Regarding the Dalits, here`s some reading for you. Read it and then come back and tell me that the Dalits aren`t waiting to take revenge:

http://www.igc.org/hrw/reports/1999/india/

HARIMANU,

Why won`t you answer my questions?? Babur tore down the Ram Mandir and built a mosque on top of it. He and his descedents oppressed and humiliated Hindus for 200 years. Right? So why the hell did high-caste Hindus like Mirza Jai Singh, Raja Mann Singh, Todar Mal and countless others serve the Mughals so faithfully while their coreligionists were being oppressed? Why did they accept jagirs and lands from the Mughals? Why did they give their women to the Mughals?

Please explain why high-caste Hindus collaborated for 700 years with the Islamic invaders and rulers.

Please also tell us what you think about the Manu Smriti, an ancient and revered Hindu law book that tells high-caste Hindus how to (mis)treat low-caste Hindus.

harimau #371
Let me ask for the nth time, whats the fun of hating people if you want to be like them?

``why a single Hindu didn`t have the guts to call Mohammed a child-molester when somebody called you a penis-worshipper.``

Because Hindus think there are many ways to God and abusing the other guys belief doesnot get us to God.

``Answer the question: has a single Muslim-majority nation ever demonstrated the capability of sustained democratic development?``

Sustained democratic development is not seen in many countries around the world. Its too soon and simplistic(and self-serving) to say that `only Muslim-majority countries` have this problem. btw, why didnot you answer the questions posed in my post highlighting India`s problems? Do you care for Muslim-majority countries problems more than India`s problems? How like a Saudi Arabian Sheikh.

``Answer the question: has a single Muslim-majority nation ever demonstrated the capability of sustained democratic development? Why then would you want to give these crazed lunatics any power to affect society?``

Because Indian democracy doesnot aim to hold what YOU TERM as `Muslim-majority` countries as role models, Mr Saudi Arabian Shiekh.

`` How do you explain your illogic in trying to get the Islamic horses to drink just because you have dragged them to the water of democracy?``

How do you explain your illogic in claiming to be a proponent of `democracy` by refusing to recognise the concept of equality and dignity of all human beings? Indian democracy wouldnot exist even as it does if its founders and executors held your opinions. What part of this contradiction in your pathetic views do you not understand???

The very thing you are claiming credit for without reason, you are violating the principles of, ie, recognising the equality and dignity of all human beings.


Sadhana

Ref fairdinkum #: 364

[I wrote a simple, straight forward account of my visit to Mathura... what`s with kalashankov, rape of women etc?]

Don`t tell me you have forgotten your beloved Pakistan.

In India, Hindu religious students learn their sacred texts and chant them. In Islamic madrassahs they are trained in the use of Kalashnikovs.

Hindus are asked to donate a few thousand rupees to feed the students.

Have you sent in your donation to the local madrassah? The brochure says that the cost of a Kalashnikov is Rs. 14,000. (NYT Report, not the flight of my fancy.)

There IS a difference in religious education, in case you have forgotten.

Ref shankar #: 368

What took you so long in the bathroom? What kind of a quack are you if you can`t think of an anti-emetic to stop your puking?

On second thoughts, don`t answer my first question.

[When guys like harimau exhibits such behavior in the real world, the treatment is very simple. We call security, put him in a straight jacket, give him an injection of a powerful antipsychotic & let him languish in a Seclusion room for 8 hours before he comes back to reality.]

The reality is that Islamic thuggery didn`t stop with Aurangzeb. The most recent case on a massive scale is East Timor. That is reality. You seem to be hallucinating and you need Narcon to jolt you back into this world.

[Its the first lesson that every student of psychiatry learns--sometimes the hard way:)]

And I am sure it has been pretty hard for you all the way through.

You know, when I was a student, the top 60% of the students went into hard sciences and engineering. The bottom 40% went to medical colleges. The results show very clearly.

[So, if you want my advice (no charge)-- ``drill`` a hole between your ears & let his words go into one ear & out of the other.]

I guess in your case, you didn`t need the surgical drill at all.

It is interesting that of all the possibilities in medicine, you have chosen the one field that comes closest to witch doctoring. Have you yet taken a WD degree from the University of Ouagadougou?

Ref sadna#: 367

[Yes and I asked you what is the difference between you and a Saudi Arabian Shiekh, its apparent there is none.]

I don`t have a harem. Unfortunately.

[Its interesting to see you nurture those qualities in yourself(blind hatred of others) which you accuse of causing massacres elsewhere in the world. A bit confused, aren`t you?]

First of all you are assuming hatred just because I ask you to read from historical evidence. You then proceed to make the claim that this blind hatred causes massacres, with the implication that I am calling for a massacre. But you refuse to read my posts in a calm manner. I have twice shown how my posts might be re-worded by Bilal Ahmad but that is not my style and I am not going to apologize for it. Nor am I going to apologize for asking why a single Hindu didn`t have the guts to call Mohammed a child-molester when somebody called you a penis-worshipper.

I am not confused. You are so distracted in your frenzy to appear as a reasonable, loving, kind, love-thy-enemy-until-you-make-him-your-friend (though you are likely to be raped and killed by Islamic thugs before that would ever happen), namby-pamby, hand-wringing apologist that my posts sends your blood pressure racing higher and higher. Watch out, you may pop an artery.

Ref sadna #: 363

[IN A DEMOCRACY ALL HAVE RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES TOWARDS THE STATED IDEALS OF THE STATE. In such a democracy, destroying each others religious places is incompatible with collective responsibility.]

A democracy consists of like-minded people working cooperatively for the common good of the nation, with each person of legal age having a voice in the form of a vote in regularly-scheduled periodic elections. Answer the question: has a single Muslim-majority nation ever demonstrated the capability of sustained democratic development? Why then would you want to give these crazed lunatics any power to affect society?

I can now expect Ali1 and YLH to sing the praises of the Khilafat and Iran and Turkey. Well, the Khilafat is long gone and Iran they shoot the dissidents and put the women in burqas (this of course goes well with those women `who wear the hijab by choice`) and in Turkey they suppress the Kurd`s by destroying their linguistic and cultural heritage. Umairr would normally jump in and start saying that Pakistanis need to evolve their own form of democracy which would of course not be the same as the one-man-one-vote plebiscite he demands in Kashmir. But I am sure he suddenly had the urge to bury his infant daughter in the sands of the California desert and is trying desperately to overcome this by reading those portions of the Qu`ran that gives better rights to women than Arab nomadic societies of the 7th century did and thus elliptically prohibits burying female babies(which is his usual crappy explanation about Islam`s mistreatment of women).

At least Ali1 and YLH can be explained away by their madrassah education. How do you explain your illogic in trying to get the Islamic horses to drink just because you have dragged them to the water of democracy?

Ref MaheshG #: 348

[Harimau, I sent you the article to show you how similar your rantings and ravings were to that of Ithiah(?). His tirades are against upper castes and yours are against muslims.]

You are joyously entering the company of that `I love my black buffalo` idiot when you tell me this.

Let me spell out the differences since you seem incapable of thinking for yourself.

As Hindus spread throughout India, they acknowledged and accepted the beliefs of native inhabitants. At the highest level, the Dravidian god Shiva has been co-opted into the Hindu pantheon and is given a highly exalted position on a par with Vishnu who is clearly an Aryan god. A Muslim would have (and did) smote the phallic symbol representing Shiva as an abomination and idolatry. Quite a few of the natives/adivasis believed in a matriarchal system and worshipped a female deity. These female deities were honored as re-incarnations of Durga/Parvati and fanciful legends were created to integrate them more fully into the Hindu religion. The Tamil god Muruga has become Kartik, the son of Shiva and the Kerala goddess Bhagawati is now Durga. An entire book called Skanda-Puran was written, in Sanskrit by brahmins (which you all conveniently forget in your desire to blacken the name of Hinduism), exalting Kartik. The local deity of Karnataka who killed the buffalo-headed demon Mahisha is venerated as Durga and an entire poem in Sanskrit was composed and those shlokas are sung by all Hindus in praise of that deity. You can wander through any small town which has a temple and you will find that the local gods and goddesses retain a local name but are said to be Shiva or Vishnu or Durga who came down to save that village under that name. Thus, any society the Hindus came into contact with was accepted with open arms. Their deities were not ridiculed but elevated to the highest level in Hindu mythology. If in their ignorance people worshipped a local deity as the one who prevents small-pox, that goddess was usually integrated into Hinduism as another form of Kali. The Bengalis worship Kali to the exclusion of Shiva and Vishnu. How does that fit into orthodox Hinduism? Ask a non-Muslim Bengali who he is and he will tell you he is a Hindu. He is not going to think that he belongs to a special sect that worships a blood-thirsty female deity though that is exactly the case.

In this same sense, this buffalo-crazed man`s tribe was absorbed into Hinduism. Yet, under the modern affirmative action programs in India, he has been given special privileges in terms of preferential admission to educational institutions, scholarships to pay for it, quotas in government jobs, etc. After all this, he comes out and says Hindus oppressed him and that Islam and Christianity preach equality. It is clear that his education has done him no good because he seems not to realize that the Muslims would have depopulated his country, cut down the tree under which his deities would have been installed in a shrine, broken the idols, killed every buffalo just to piss him off, and taken his children captive into slavery and his wife and daughters as sex slaves.

I quote the history of Islamic cruelty on a scale unknown to mankind. This idiot is ranting and raving against those who have honored his beliefs. You think the two are the same.

Your education is proof that India specializes in a curriculum that teaches Hindus to start cringing when anyone who calls himself a minority comes whingeing.

Dionysus#335,

``Just wait till the Dalits, with Pakistani help and assistance, take revenge for 5000 years of real (not imaginary) and savage persecution at the hands of high-caste Hindus.``

Aint going to happen mate. You tried it with Khalistanis and thousands of innocents died. Now you say you only have issues with ``upper caste`` Hindus but in reality you are only trying to justify an absolute overarching hatred of all Hindus, all of India and all that is not Muslim and Pakistani. I mean dont be cowardly about it, admit it. You hate me as much as you hate Harimau. Just because I am Indian. So even though I think Harimau is a demented buffoon, I also dont take very kindly to your rantings, because you`d be quite happy to plant a bomb to kill some brahmins that would also kill me. Because you have a ``scorched-earth`` hatred.

So look after the raped women on your own side of the border. And dont insult women by using rape as a weapon to beat each other over the head with. It is disgusting.

regards

Harpreet

fairdinkum,

{{You need to calm down... take few deep breaths... i am calling shankar (our resident shrink) in the mean time...}}

When guys like harimau exhibits such behavior in the real world, the treatment is very simple. We call security, put him in a straight jacket, give him an injection of a powerful antipsychotic & let him languish in a Seclusion room for 8 hours before he comes back to reality. If he does`nt, we go through the same procedure over & over again till he does. It is perfectly legal, ethical & humane way of treatment.

There`s no sense in debating or trying to reason with a person who is flagrantly psychotic. It just riles him up even more. Its the first lesson that every student of psychiatry learns--sometimes the hard way:)

In the cyberworld, alas, such treatment is`nt possible. So, if you want my advice (no charge)-- ``drill`` a hole between your ears & let his words go into one ear & out of the other. Even better, use the scroll arrows to bypass his posts. When I tried to reason with that other lunatic, Jay, he gave me that advice. I`m eternally grateful to Jay for giving me that advice. In fact, all the other Chowksters used it & Jay faded away into the sunset.

harimau #366
``How nice of you to characterize any existing Islamic nation on earth!``
Yes and I asked you what is the difference between you and a Saudi Arabian Shiekh, its apparent there is none.
`` Of course you want Hindus to be nice to Muslims. Because the Muslims have been so nice to everybody else in the world.``

``I merely warn that Islam is a scourge on the face of the earth and it makes Muslims do unspeakable things.``

Going by YOUR posts, your thoughts and your claim to be a Hindu, all Hindus(including myself) should be put into lunatic asylums. But, no I choose to judge people by THEIR OWN actions not of others who are 1000s of miles away.

Its interesting to see you nurture those qualities in yourself(blind hatred of others) which you accuse of causing massacres elsewhere in the world. A bit confused, aren`t you?

Sadhana

Ref sadna #: 363

[There is no cure for a chronic permanent affliction like yours, so I`m not trying

So stop posting already!

[IN A DEMOCRACY ALL HAVE RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES TOWARDS THE STATED IDEALS OF THE STATE. In such a democracy, destroying each others religious places is incompatible with collective responsibility.]

So how about the legal dispute about who owns the property on which Babri Masjid stood? Why are you avoiding the legal issue?

[You can cut off as many thieves hands and gouge out as many eyes for eyes, organise a razing party every 3 months, accept the return favors in between, who cares?]

How nice of you to characterize any existing Islamic nation on earth! I hope the Pakistanis thank you for describing Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Pakistan, which seem to be your ideal countries to live in as a minority.

[`Being nice to Muslims`

May I ask who are you to choose to `be nice` to your equals? I think this is the crux, and this is why you didnot answer my question previously. You DO NOT believe that ALL India`s citizens have the right to live with dignity and pride, you think YOU have to grant permission to others `to join the club`. Delusions of grandeur:you are the one who desperately needs the Valium.]

Of course you want Hindus to be nice to Muslims. Because the Muslims have been so nice to everybody else in the world.

Let us ignore the Armenian massacre by the Turks at the turn of the century though it is not as old as Aurangzeb`s massacres. How about Bangladesh in 1971? That is an internal affair of Pakistan. How about the time the Islamic thugs wanted that Javanese Suharto out but went and raped Chinese women? Couldn`t they find any Javanese/Indonesian women but had to take it out on a minority 3% population? How about East Timor where the Islamic thugs (in this case, the Indonesian Army and its militia) expelled 300,000 out of 600,000 people, destroyed every single building in Dili (doesn`t that remind you of the sultans of Delhi?), took about 100,000 people captive to West Timor and other places in Indonesia, all because the poor East Timorese (Christians, mind you) voted for independence? Ever thought there might be a connection between the fact that the dominant group is a bunch of Muslims? Coincidence? I don`t think so.

This is nothing but a continuation of organized Islamic thuggery that started in the 7th century but you CANNOT admit it because you believe in the equality of human beings. You would be so anxious to defend the honor of the Muslims that you would find some way to whitewash these crimes against humanity. Well, as Solitude likes to point out, Islam makes people mindless automatons, capable of only toting guns, killing everything in sight, raping women, and then going back and crying that the hated antagonists made them do it. Well, I for one am NOT buying that crap about `he made me do it, Ma`. If anything, that he is Allah. So, if you have difficulty accepting the fact that the Muslims always have one rule for themselves and the exact opposite for all others, that is a problem you have to live with. I merely warn that Islam is a scourge on the face of the earth and it makes Muslims do unspeakable things.

Tell me one country where Muslims have lived in peace with their neighbors except when threatened with overwhelming devastation? Ever thought about how nice the Muslims in Yugoslavia behaved under Tito, how the Central Asian Muslims were model citizens of the world under Communism, etc.? It requires a Stalin to overcome Allah because Stalin had no problem dispatching the Muslims to their heavenly rewards if they lifted their little fingers. You want to give them equal rights. What a fool! What a raving lunatic!

Harimau #349

Looks like truth is your concubine.

Anyway you treat it like that.

Is it necessary for you to answer every post even if you don`t have a mental capacity to do so.

harami,

I wrote a simple, straight forward account of my visit to Mathura... what`s with kalashankov, rape of women etc?

You need to calm down... take few deep breaths... i am calling shankar (our resident shrink) in the mean time...

harimau #363
There is no cure for a chronic permanent affliction like yours, so I`m not trying.

``By the same token, what does any Hindu today have to do with what happened in Ayodhya with respect to the Babri Masjid? Why do Hindus fall all over themselve saying we shouldn`t have done that``

Aurangzeb and whoever gives you nightmares DIDNOT preside over a republic/democracy, he was an absolute authority. In case you havenot noticed, we are not a monarchy or a totalitarian state, we are a democracy, where the rule of law prevails by the will of the people, all of whom are equal in the eyes of the state. IN A DEMOCRACY ALL HAVE RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES TOWARDS THE STATED IDEALS OF THE STATE. In such a democracy, destroying each others religious places is incompatible with collective responsibility.

You happen to consider medievial mindsets and methods appropriate for todays` world. Well, go buy an island and live there by yourself. You can cut off as many thieves hands and gouge out as many eyes for eyes, organise a razing party every 3 months, accept the return favors in between, who cares?

`Being nice to Muslims`
May I ask who are you to choose to `be nice` to your equals? I think this is the crux, and this is why you didnot answer my question previously. You DO NOT believe that ALL India`s citizens have the right to live with dignity and pride, you think YOU have to grant permission to others `to join the club`. Delusions of grandeur:you are the one who desperately needs the Valium.

``how would you feel if the Hindus say that they are the ones who are are disadvantaged in India and if equality is to be achieved in the religious field perhaps an equal number of mosques should be destroyed? Do Hindus have a valid point when they make such a statement?``

I would think those Hindus who depend on destruction of religious places to rid themselves of their feeling of `disadvantage` are no better(actually worse) than the barbaric conquerors who felt the same. Who needs to think of such pathetic people except as mental cases.

Its obvious you havenot lived in India or you would not keep crapping about `religious` disdvantages in terms of number of temples. I`m yet to hear of any Hindus who couldnot find anywhere to worship.

Yes, I have heard of starving Hindus, but you ignored that post completely.

Sadhana

Ref sadna #: 353

[You ask ``Can you explain why Aurangzeb built a mosque near the Krishna temple in Mathura?...Do you think Aurangzeb could have built mosques in places other than those venerated by Hindus?...would any person of the Islamic faith choose to answer the questions?``

Why should any person of the Islamic faith be asked to answer you? Aurangzeb has been dead and gone many hundred years, he was not alone in his barbarism, the problem in not current, noone is making a case for destroying each others religious places in India anymore, (except for some notable exceptions). Finally, what does any person of Islamic faith today have to do with what Aurangzeb did?]

By the same token, what does any Hindu today have to do with what happened in Ayodhya with respect to the Babri Masjid? Why do Hindus fall all over themselves saying we shouldn`t have done that, maybe we should be really nice to those Muslims by being servants in their house, we need to atone for the sin, blah, blah, blah...? Because that happened less than 10 years back? Does that mean a Kannadiga has to repent and pay reparations? Some poor Assamese or Bengali has to repent? Some Oriya will have to feel guilty?

Why don`t you just say that`s how the cookie crumbles and move on? After all, that is your answer to the destruction of the artistic and cultural heritage of India. That is your answer to the massive depopulation due to the killings of civilians and non-combatants. But no, we need to make our minority Muslims feel safe and happy to be in India. Well, let me tell ya, a whole lot of Indians are unhappy in India and the Muslims are welcome to join the club. Last time I heard, they even got a country to go to (it has now become two) in case they find more happiness there. I still haven`t seen a rush for immigrant visas to Bangladesh or Pakistan.

One disused building of no artistic value situated on property illegally expropriated was demolished. You know, that happens in big cities in India. They ask you, where is your building permit, why are you encroaching on government property, on public land? They send in bulldozers and clear the buildings. Legally speaking, that was all that was done in Ayodhya. You can make a big deal out of it but it was a property dispute between two groups and one of them decided they have waited long enough.

But that is not the way you look at it.

If the other party was not a minority, would you feel the same level of concern? When they started clearing out the hutments along the railroad tracks in Bombay in Nov last year, where was your outrage? When the Bombay Municipal Commissioner MR. Khairnar was demolishing illegal buildings, where was your concern for the property rights of the owners?

When you say you loathe me, that is proof that you are one of those Hindus who has been raised to hate himself/herself. I don`t know what your complex is. I just tell the Muslims that they got paid back in their own coin in the Babri Masjid case.

So, read my posts again, perhaps after taking a dose of Valium. I said:

[To all those Pakistanis and the so-called `assertive` Muslims of India who demand proof of a level playing ground in India:

How about if in India we destroy EVERY SINGLE MOSQUE in NOrthern India, from Gujarat in the west to Assam in the east, from Kashmir in the north to Andhra in the south? That would level the playing field as for as freedom of worship is concerned. How about a reverse-jizya on Muslims for the next 600 years of anywhere from 6 to 30% of income as levied by the sultans of Delhi? That would level the economic playing field. How about appropriation of lots of Muslim owned property? That ought to compensate for the lands lost by India`s Hindus at the hands of the thugs who called themselves sultans, nawabs, nizams, etc.]

Have you heard of the term `rhetorical question`?

What you read is what you WANT to read. Your pathetic self-loathing leads you to conclusions you WANT to reach, which is that Hindus are bad and Hindutva is bad.

Let me re-phrase that in the inimitable style of Prof. Bilal Ahmad:

Pakistanis and Indian Muslims who believe that there is not enough social and economic justice for minorities in India:

Considering that there is incontrovertible proof that Muslim invaders and their active collaborators/converts in India destroyed several culturally and religiously important Hindu shrines, how would you feel if the Hindus say that they are the ones who are are disadvantaged in India and if equality is to be achieved in the religious field perhaps an equal number of mosques should be destroyed? Do Hindus have a valid point when they make such a statement?

Do you get the picture?

That doesn`t mean I take back anything I said. I meant every word of what I wrote. You can take it any way you want. Yours seems to be, oh, let us be nice to those poor Muslims. I just say, screw them if they don`t like the truth.

It is getting tiring to explain history and logic to pea-brained Indians. Hey, Pakis, get into the field and let us have some verbal jousting.

harimau #359
Now you have created serious doubts whether you have any acquaintance with India.

``Indians are taught the fairy tale that Muslims gave India all that is wonderful in architecture and that the sultans of Delhi were wonderfully nice people you would take home to introduce to your grandmother.``

Prove this statement? Indian children are not taught to hate anyone even the British, what they decide to read and think when they are adults is their business.

``Not having read them, Sadna, MaheshG, Shankar and a host of self-loathing Indians assume that anyone who says anything other than nice things about the sultans must be a Hindutva-vadi``

I donot loathe any Indians except you.

``I have news for you guys: several of these histories have been collected in The History of India as Told by Its Own Historians and the whole thing is cheap at $125.``

If you are talking of the Bharatiya Vidya Bhaavan series, you could have gone anytime in the last 10 years(that I know of) and picked it up at Motilal Banarsidaas in Bangalore in rupees for much less. As far as I know it was available even before that and I always saw it listed in their catalogues.

Whats the big deal? You seem to think it is a revelation that `Muslim` rulers were not perfect. So whats new? Everyone knows that, its been written about extensively, even movies have been made. However depraved and debauched rulers were in the past, how does it justify blooshed and violence or hate-filled rhetoric against innocent people today? How many times must you be asked this question?

Thats why I suspect you havenot been around India much. And you donot have much at stake there anymore(and are safe from the consequences of your actions) or you wouldnot throw around such extreme and unacceptable abuse so casually.

Sadhana

harimanu #359

You didn`t even respond to my statements about Mann Singh and hundreds of other Hindu chieftans faithfully serving their Mughal masters. And even given their sisters and daughters to the Mughals as concubines. Don`t start celebrating a premature victory, you fool.

Pankaj,

Neither Harimanu nor any other Indian bothered disputing my contention that high-caste Hindus rape and molest low-caste Hindus as a matter of habit and routine. I know this to be a fact from many North Indian friends and acquaintances.

Here`s a link to a Human Rights Watch`s report on the inhuman treatment of low-caste Hindus in India. The title of the report says it all - BROKEN PEOPLE: Caste violence against India`s untouchables:

http://www.igc.org/hrw/reports/1999/india/

Read this report and then: ``Garv say kaho hum Bharati hain!``