The Islamist and Hindutva Politics: Identities of Outlook and Objectives

Ref sadna #: 355

[Not everyone has the sense of shame which you have in such great measure.]

One who is ashamed is apologetic. I ask that Hindus need not be apologetic. Even for the destruction of Babri Masjid.

On the other hand, you seem to find the genesis of Hindutva conspiracies when a tour guide gives you historical facts. Obviously, as I quote even more history, from Muslim historians no less, you find it hard to accept and accuse me of being a Hindutva fundo. Look at the Muslims who were thundering about Babri Masjid. They are all gone with their tails tucked between their legs.

With the exception of ali1 of course who seems to mistake his camel droppings for reasoned arguments.

So, let me ask the question once again:

Who needs to atone?

That question suddenly has become unanswerable.

Pakistanis can rest assured that the true history of India is not taught in Indian schools. You are taught that history began with the arrival of Muhammed bin Qasim in Sindh. Indians are taught the fairy tale that Muslims gave India all that is wonderful in architecture and that the sultans of Delhi were wonderfully nice people you would take home to introduce to your grandmother. The history of the conquest of India as written by Muslim historians of the 10th to 15th centuries were all translated and published in the late 1800s to the very early 1900s so the books are out of print and out of stock. Not having read them, Sadna, MaheshG, Shankar and a host of self-loathing Indians assume that anyone who says anything other than nice things about the sultans must be a Hindutva-vadi. I have news for you guys: several of these histories have been collected in The History of India as Told by Its Own Historians and the whole thing is cheap at $125. Order it from Amazon.com. Read some Islamic history, not the one written by Advani, Savarkar or Vajpayee. Get Farzana Versey to read the histories before she starts talking about a ``real azaadi Kashmir`` or the plight of Muslims in India. Then let these guys talk about Babri Masjid.

The difference between you and me is that you see a rabid dog and say ``Nice doggie, nice doggie`` as you slink away whereas I pick up a few stones and throw them at the female dog (if you know what I mean).

PS. Chowk is SO sensitive that I could not use the word used in England to mean a female dog. Guys, there IS a word in the English language that means female dog. It is even listed in the OED.

contd : similarities
...And lets not even mention common views on intermarrying, tauba tauba, what to speak of attention to genealogy and blood lines.

The differences: Brahmins loosened their grip on the reins a long time ago, have always been open(often at the forefront) to change in modern times, and have always valued knowledge and education and have a huge capacity for abstract ideas.

Sadhana

ali1 #356
Read articles in Pakistani newspapers and even the interactions on chowk and see if `Indians`, `Brahmins and baniyas` are made the scapegoats in the identical way for every evil in Pakistan. For some strange reason, baniyas and Brahmins are evil, khatris deserve only abuse, but Rajputs are quite OK, while `Shudras` (of India, the Pakistani ones have to fend for themselves) are only lacking assistance by Pakistan.

And your plentiful abuse for your own countrymen who donot share your faith is easily recognizable as an identical twin of the `much-maligned` `Brahminism` , down to pious attention to eating habits and the sharing of food.

Your and harimau`s sickness is of much the same variety, a lot of empty and black kitchen utensils making a lot of noise together.

Sadhana

Ahh.... didn`t realize that this thread was still alive and my friend harimau is still going strong. go harimau!

harimau,

You mention rape of the upper caste hindu women in each and every reply that you post. What is the deal, buddhay pervert? Does it help your erectile dysfunction?

This is how the conversation goes with harimau:

Q) why corruption eats a huge proportion of development funds

harimau) because upper caste hindu women were raped by muslims

Q) why are so many young men from India dying in the holds of ships anywhere in the world?

harimau) because Aurangzeb build this mosque in Mathura and raped Brahmin women on its doorsteps.

Q) Why did Mulayam Singh Yadav get elected on a plank which promised to punishments on cheating in exams?

harimau) because Babur raped 935 cheating upper caste hindu women in ayodhya and built his mosque there.

Q) You are not a sole proprietor of Hindustan just because you were born to a Brahim

harimau) but still, I am the sole descendant of the brahmin women raped by the donkeys carrying fodder for Akbar`s horses!

Q) Why people die of starvation in a country where foodgrains are in excess and vegetables enough to feed a whole country are rotting in godowns

Harimau) because Shah Jehan took 455 Brahmin women to the vegetable godown in Red Fort and raped them with baingan, tori, muli, gajar and several other vegetables.

take care sicko!

PS. Chowk Staff, please be even-handed and post this.

harimau #354
Not everyone has the sense of shame which you have in such great measure. There is no dearth of celebration in India of the `Hindu` part of our heritage, artistic or religious, I`m sorry your life is so deprived in that respect or maybe you are just blind.

And you call a dislike for linking that heritage with your type of hate-mongering and divisiveness as `dumb`, well you are not being convincing at all. I donot appreciate linking my visit to a holy place with anger at something which happened many hundred years ago and which has resulted in ruthless killings today. You want to defile or desecrate your own faith, thats your own choice. You want to defile and desecrate our common places of worship, well, better not depend on your cries of `coward` to get you there.

And btw, your so-called defence of `Hinduism` in contrast to your utter lack of concern for the current and future wellbeing of your fellow humans, including Hindus, is rather revealing. All this moral outrage seems to be a personal egotrip after all.

Sadhana

Ref sadna #: 347

[Well, my first trip to Mathura was during a relative`s wedding, and we also visited some excavations of an old fort-like structure at that time. The next time was on a guided tour and the guide kept mentioning how high was the original tower. This was before Hindutva sentiment was reaching its crest, I could see it in genesis, though.]

You are SO right. How dare the guide talk about what Mathura was like before the invaders? Doesn`t the whole world know that there may be no taller minar than the Qutb Minar, no grander dome than the Gol Gumbez, no art like Islamic calligraphy? How dare a Hindu even talk about his barbaric places of idolatry? Didn`t the benevolent Muslims bring in art and all that is lovely to the dusty plains of Hindustan? Is any more proof needed for this than the fact that the only grand monuments in all the places the Muslims ruled are mosques and burial places of the sultans of Delhi or various nawabs? You dumb Hindus, show me one place where I could find your people exhibiting any sense of the artistic.

harimau #352
Yes your posts are vitriolic, it doesnot matter what style you use. The reason is your insidious illogic.

You ask ``Can you explain why Aurangzeb built a mosque near the Krishna temple in Mathura?...Do you think Aurangzeb could have built mosques in places other than those venerated by Hindus?...would any person of the Islamic faith choose to answer the questions?``

Why should any person of the Islamic faith be asked to answer you? Aurangzeb has been dead and gone many hundred years, he was not alone in his barbarism, the problem in not current, noone is making a case for destroying each others religious places in India anymore, (except for some notable exceptions). Finally, what does any person of Islamic faith today have to do with what Aurangzeb did?

What we have to focus on is the problems of the present of which there are plenty. Does anyone ask you personally to answer why lower caste inhabitants of many North Indian villages still have to collect their water from other peoples` runoffs? Why were there riots in Agra not many years ago because `higher caste` goons objected to a `lower caste` bridegroom getting above his `station` by riding a horse? (and why did the lower caste riot when an eveteaser of their caste was slapped by the girl he was stalking?).

btw, do you ask with the same intensity and interest,
why corruption eats a huge proportion of development funds,
why ministers ask for bribes and donot get caught,
why schools are lying in disrepair and why teachers are moonlighting in other jobs?
Why the newpaper carries daily at least one story of some bride`s death?
Why did Mulayam Singh Yadav get elected on a plank which promised to punishments on cheating in exams?
Why there is no electricity for the guy in the corner shop to run his business without loss?
Why people die of starvation in a country where foodgrains are in excess and vegetables enough to feed a whole country are rotting in godowns,
why people have to live in inhuman shantytowns next door to open drains in cities full of rich people?
Also why are so many young men from India dying in the holds of ships anywhere in the world? You ought to check, those might just be `upper caste Hindus` of your variety.

But oh No, a person of Islamic faith has to present himself to answer your `urgent` questions put in the best possible style and wording. Whats the use of a million temples if only a few like you have `good` reason and good health to have faith enough to worship?

Sadhana

Repf sadna #: 344

[Are you denying your vitrolic posts began in response to someone mentioning atonement for demolition of the Babri Masjid and accompanying deaths of many hundred people?]

So, my posts are vitriolic? Let me re-write my questions in the style of Prof. Bilal Ahmad.

Here is my original:

What business has the Aurangzeb mosque right smack against the Krishna temple in Mathura? What business has the Gyan Vapi mosque right next to the Vishwanath temple in Benares? And what business did the Babri Masjid have in Ayodhya? In all of India, Babur couldn`t find any place to build his mosque except Ayodhya? And Aurangzeb couldn`t find a place for his mosques except by appropriating the property of the temples venerated as the birthplace of Krishna or as the center of the universe?

Here is the same in Prof. Ahmad`s style:

Can you explain why Aurangzeb built a mosque near the Krishna temple in Mathura? Why do you think the Gyan Vapi mosque was erected in close proximity to the Vishwanath temple in Benares? Why do you feel Babur chose to build his mosque in Ayodhya? Do you think Aurangzeb could have built mosques in places other than those venerated by Hindus?

Now that the wording meets your approval (I hope), would any person of the Islamic faith choose to answer the questions?

What was that again? When Hell freezes over? Oh, thank you.

Ref fairdinkum #: 346

[we visited several vidwa asharams and the women (dressed in white) were singing bhajans… we were told that that’s what they do all day long… with breaks in between of course…]

What? No training in the use of Kalashnikovs? What are these Hindutva-vadis up to? Whom do your mujahideen fight in their determination to reach heaven? Maybe these hated Hindus are invoking their yakshas and rakshasas. You will have to get your jinns to fight the kafirs` demons.

Wait a minute; you said women. Not bad. Good for some nookie between fighting. Just like your guys did in Baramula. Yeah, those were Christian nuns, People of the Book and all that, but aren`t honest Muslims allowed to take concubines from infidels? About killing those nuns: the battle for Srinagar was still on and so your guys couldn`t be bothered with war booty at that time.

[I wonder if I will ever be able to visit India again?]

Physically, yes. Could you face the shame you feel for what your religion did in India? You may be an exception but the Ummah would have no problem.

Ref JSandhu #: 343

R[``Hindu apologist``?? hmm. Let me make it clear to you, I am not a Hindu and don`t call me one again. Hindustani? yes! but not a Hindu. You are not a sole proprietor of Hindustan just because you were born to a Brahim. Stop dreaming!]

I had a fair idea about your religious orientation from your name but I couldn`t care what religion you belong to. If you don`t want to apologize on behalf of the Hindus, then you can apologize on behalf of the Sikhs, for all the errors committed by your ten Gurus in not accepting the True Faith, for defending your women and honor in the face of Islamic onslaught, or for just being born. Based on history, I expected a little more spirit among the Sikhs. Are you sure you aren`t a recent convert?

Jeez, we will next have the Parsis apologizing for leaving Iran instead of staying back and getting killed.

Jains, Buddhists, Animists, Jews: it is your tuen next to apologize to Muslims.

You should also give independence to every Muslim pocket in India so that the Faithful Believers can live with people of their own religion. As Jinnah has told us, Muslims cannot live together with Hindus. And as the 1947 partition riots in Punjab proved, they cannot live together with Sikhs. They cannot live together with Shias, Ismailis, Qadianis. And if you read the Pakistani papers, they don`t like women much either. Krashid has the right idea: better get a camel.

Ref krashid #: 345

[Probably in your response you did not care to read your post to which I was responding.]

I really don`t need to read your stuff carefully. Let me just summarize it for you: it is all the Hindu`s fault that you guys didn`t get all of Punjab and Bengal, Muslims cannot live together with Hindus, and Hindus are penis-worshippers. Pardon me for not wanting read your camel droppings word by word.

[Anyway I am making ``Hijrat`` on camel from Darul-Harb to Dar-ul-Islam because my stomach gets upset with Halaal Food and Halaal ``Rizq`` in Dar-ul-Harb.

If you don`t get it let me know, I will clarify.]

What you do with your camel is your business. I really don`t need to know the details. Women and children read the Chowk so please spare the Chowk readership.

[And stop whining regarding your posts getting through on Chowk. With the number of your responses to all and sundry, chowk might be overwhelmed.]

No, I don`t whine. If you notice, I taunt the Chowk editors to get my posts published. Even they have difficulty digesting the truth about Islam.

Harimau, I sent you the article to show you how similar your rantings and ravings were to that of Ithiah(?). His tirades are against upper castes and yours are against muslims.

fairdinkum #346
I suspect you have seen more of India than I have. Your khufiya agency had more funds than mine does :-).

Well, my first trip to Mathura was during a relative`s wedding, and we also visited some excavations of an old fort-like structure at that time. The next time was on a guided tour and the guide kept mentioning how high was the original tower. This was before Hindutva sentiment was reaching its crest, I could see it in genesis, though.

Actually reading history and visiting old historic and religious sites does engender a great feeling of loss. My first acquaintance with such a feeling (wholly unexpected and untutored), was in a cave temple near Mumbai where beautiful artistic and carvings can be seen to be defaced by those who wished to show their `superiority` by brute force. So much has been lain to waste which could have been, if nothing else, wonderful artistic heritage from our past.

But its criminally stupid(IMO) to cause further loss to ourselves by nurturing a meaningless sense of injury, meaningless because whats lost is lost and cannot come back. There are so many avenues in the modern world in which Indians can make(and have made)a mark for themselves, including Hindus, even opportunities to `leverage` past glories and a multifaceted heritage. In this context, IMO, `Hindu pride` can only be undermined by destructive violence, esp when if its not about resurgence of Hinduism at all, rather a few people wanting to be MPs and wheeler-dealers.

Sadhana

sadna #344

“I visited Mathura when I was a kid and then 10 years later.”

I visited Mathura in 1988. Our tour guide pointed to the blocks that were used in building the mosque and concluded that they are actually from one of the temples destroyed by Muslims… I didn’t think his remarks were a big deal at the time… I now realize what it meant. At any rate, it was a memorable visit… we visited several vidwa asharams and the women (dressed in white) were singing bhajans… we were told that that’s what they do all day long… with breaks in between of course… there were gow shalas… and so many temples… we even had parsaad from one the temples in the evening… I wonder if I will ever be able to visit India again?

Harimau #333

Probably in your response you did not care to read your post to which I was responding.

Anyway I am making ``Hijrat`` on camel from Darul-Harb to Dar-ul-Islam because my stomach gets upset with Halaal Food and Halaal ``Rizq`` in Dar-ul-Harb.

If you don`t get it let me know, I will clarify.

And stop whining regarding your posts getting through on Chowk. With the number of your responses to all and sundry, chowk might be overwhelmed.

harimau #340
Are you denying your vitrolic posts began in response to someone mentioning atonement for demolition of the Babri Masjid and accompanying deaths of many hundred people?

Many people have their own concept of what constitutes a moral or Hindu or whatever point of view on any event, including communal riots. But according to you, everyone who doesnot agree with you is apologising for being a Hindu? How do you manage to read that and what makes YOU the judge of everyone else? Do you really think your anger represents Hindu pride at its best? To me it represents Hindus at their most insecure, why else would anyone be so obsessed with the past and the misdeeds of others?

Contrary to what you think, facilities for religious practice and development of traditional art and culture had so far prospered without giving a political slant. If anything temples have become commercialized. I visited Mathura when I was a kid and then 10 years later. Neither time was the mosque of any interest or significance, and the first visit made a deep impression. But in the second visit, I found the shops came right upto the door and there were some even inside the brithplace! Now I bet they must be shouting political slogans inside. What sort of worship does that constitute, may I ask and what does it have to do with the past? It has to do with the choices of the present.

Its become obvious that any real and legitimate grouses which Hindutva-vadis may wish to bring to light are always obscured and undermined by their hate-filled rhetoric and threats of violence(which get acted upon at great cost). Its their stupidity if they choose to undermine themselves in that fashion. Finally, it will be India`s and Hinduism`s loss if all we do is trade meaningless insults.

Sadhana